@broadsword how long will 2 heros be able to lock down the entire alb population in a keep ?

1-2 heros climb up, totally block oil usage or nuking from up top on walls, they jump down in courtyard, there 10-15 casters nuking a diseased hero that doesn't go below 95% hp from mindless spreadhealers outside

2 heros is literaly traping like 20 albs from doing anything in bold atm

cant have unkillable heavytanks climb in keeps, remove climb walls from things that cant be burst thro spreadheals without needing like 30 people and grapple
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  • edited June 2018 PM
    I can run around solo on an ice wiz all day and usualy do pretty freaken good, if It try to go in keep to defend I just get traped inside with all the other casters by unkillable tanks and its so stupid, why no one goes to defend ever and people stop logging in unless theres a huge BG to join


    and its not about getting kills, you can like barely even get a chance to cast or anything your just trapped inside till they get doors in then jump off roof and run or die


    its like not even 1% fun to defend a keep anymore 90% of the time, you don't even get a chance to play, your just trapped by godmode heavy tanks getting heals out the ass by people you cant interupt
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
  • The problem has to do with healing. Pretty much endless heals spamming group heal nonstop without needing any form of los on the target. Makes the tanks unkillable.
  • edited June 2018 PM
    yes but changing the healing changes all aspects of play that has been that for a long time if not ever


    the easy fix would be removing climb walls from heavy tanks, if vamps or assasins come in its ok, 2-3 people can turn and pop the **** out of them no problem thro heals


    but these heavytanks can take 10-15 casters on them with disease and be just run around doing w/e
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
  • its def not fun trying to defend vs it, I assume its lame for everyone else attacking to, all you do outside is sit afk waiting for the door to go down, to go in and do it again since the tanks alrdy climbed in and got everyone off the walls for everyone else to fight, and killed everyhtign inside once the doors do go down, or got everyone insdie alrdy


    1 lil ability kinda ruins a lot of fun factor for a lot of people imo

    and no one comes to defend cuz theres nothing you can do besides be trapped nside not even playing, so keeps don't get taken back half the itme, or 75% the day you have to boat for 20 mins from hurb ect

    1 simple fix make the game a lot more fun for a huge % of people, just saying ! o:)
  • Main focus of the patch is RvR changes... so we can hope something is going to change. It would be nice if we could see some of the patch notes before they went live on Ywain though, to give feedback.
    Tral
  • edited June 2018 PM
    I don't think they'd ever do it but as I said before...

    Healing out of LoS targets is out of control.

    It's just a terrible design decision IMO. You stand there and just spam a spell from safety. Whereas you might have once run out of power, there are now plenty of ways to mitigate that issue.

    Imagine this game if when healing somebody you had to be in LoS? It'd be wonderful. No more lazy clusters of healing classes soaking up RPs while doing a whole lot of nothing.

    Ideally they'd still allow *some* out of LoS heals for emergency situations - putting them on a timer, or increasing the Mana cost so that it's no longer tenable to spam even with maxed out power regen.

    Having a straight up 50-75% reduction on heals when the target isn't in LoS to the healer would be another option. Not sure if this would overload the server with LoS checks from a coding perspective though.

    Either way, it's a crap mechanic and changing it would have repercussions game wide - positive ones IMO - and I play a heal class myself. It'd be more involved.

    No more hiding your healer safely in an area where nobody can get to them. Less stalemates and silly DPS pile ons where it takes eight people to nuke one person down.

    Imagine being a defender and catching somebody out of LoS to their healer and actually being able to take them out. Or an attacker, able to actually murder the person in front of you because their healer safely behind two siege doors no longer heals for 100%.

    ... I'm sure we will just get some silly doors instead. Now you can at least wait 2-3 mins before the tank train bashes the door down.
    Post edited by Budikah on
  • Should send out 2 armsmen getting spreadheals then. Obvs. Fight fire with fire.
  • Why Hero runs with like 5 healers in his group
  • I have no problem defending as a caster versus a heavy tank. Hero runs a druid and warden and a bard. This means only one of his healers can spread heal which bypasses disease as their healers aren't diseased to cut down on the amount healed. This goes for all realms with spread heal. So from what I'm hearing is you are casting down on a heavy tank who is being healed by one to three players. You are saying you can't kill a player through heals. So are you trying to make the argument that you as a solo defender are not able to kill a heavy tank through heals? So as a solo player you should be able to do more than multiple people? I'm not here to misunderstand - I'm just trying to understand what your argument is for this topic. I don't see a problem that two people or more are able to do more than one person. This talk of 10-15 casters unable to kill a heavy tank is not true. I'm not here to call someone out but if 10-15 casters can't kill a heavy tank through spread heals especially since most hibs only run one healing class with a spread heal then it's a player issue and not a game issue. The only realm that usually has more than one spread heal class grouped is mid as they run double healer.
  • edited June 2018 PM
    Daelin wrote: »
    I have no problem defending as a caster versus a heavy tank. Hero runs a druid and warden and a bard. This means only one of his healers can spread heal which bypasses disease as their healers aren't diseased to cut down on the amount healed. This goes for all realms with spread heal. So from what I'm hearing is you are casting down on a heavy tank who is being healed by one to three players. You are saying you can't kill a player through heals. So are you trying to make the argument that you as a solo defender are not able to kill a heavy tank through heals? So as a solo player you should be able to do more than multiple people? I'm not here to misunderstand - I'm just trying to understand what your argument is for this topic. I don't see a problem that two people or more are able to do more than one person. This talk of 10-15 casters unable to kill a heavy tank is not true. I'm not here to call someone out but if 10-15 casters can't kill a heavy tank through spread heals especially since most hibs only run one healing class with a spread heal then it's a player issue and not a game issue. The only realm that usually has more than one spread heal class grouped is mid as they run double healer.

    Post edited by Armagedden on
  • @ Armagedden I'm curious to hear what your counter argument is for what I responded. The OP stated two Heros were stopping 20 Albs. He also stated that 10-15 casters were nuking a diseased hero and his health didn't go below 95%. So please give us your thoughts.
  • I think it was an exageration (10-15 casters) and no Hue is not asking a solo ice wiz to take down climbers by himself...

    But there is definitely something broken with the fact that heavy tanks can climb walls, especially when you have keeps like Arvakr Faste where heroes/vamps can be in the inner oil level while still being in healing range from outside the keep (with the outside gate still up)

    By the way a bard can group heal, a warden can group heal. Spread heal is one healing mechanism, but taking into consideration that a hero can be healed for approx 700 (spreadheal) + 350 (warden spec group heal) + 150 (bard base group heal) = 1200 hp healed every second or so.

    Add to this that a tank (high rank) can have 55% primary resists + 20% base secondary resists + 10% Magic resist charge + 10-20% secondary magic resists (AoM Ra), with Fury/rampage on top of that. And you can also mention Moose and 4500 Hits.

    Considering that if you do not have a debuff train going on the hero, you will hit him (with a 209 delve spec nuke) for about 300-350 dmg.

    So, realistically, to take down a hero that is getting healed from outside, you need to pump into him 1200+ dmg/sec (just to see his life not go up). If you want to kill him within 5 seconds (so he doesn't just run out of LoS), you would need to pump an extra 900 dmg/sec, pushing it to 2100 dmg/sec. Considering that you hit for approx 300/350 dmg per nuke, you are talking 6-7 casters assiting during a full 5 seconds without getting interrupted to bring down a single hero in a keep siege.

    You find that this makes sense? I don't.
  • But regarding Herorius, I think the issue is more that you have 120 hibs for the 15 albs/mids defending.
  • edited June 2018 PM
    I swear to god and on my dogs life, I have sat and spamed nuke disease on heros in alb keep courtyards and 10-15 casters nuke them bno joke and they just run around above 90% if they ever startr to take dmg they just go in a cubby heal up and come back out llike a wrecking ball with 200k hp

    more times then I can begin to count



    and that's when ur lucky enough to have 10-15 casters standing there ready to nuke most the time its just like 5-10 tops casters focusing on them and the rest is doing w/e, and there is absolutely no droping them

    point is everyone, let everyone go up on the walls and have a KEEP SIEGE a BATTLE a WAR a FIGHT some FUN

    not everyone inside trapped unable to go try to kill people via unkillable tanks, and not everyone outside have nothing to do cuz only 1 class can go in and rvr
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
  • remove climb walls from tanks and we can have keep sieges again


    atm its just, stand outside and attack the door while tanks and trap everyone inside the inner doors, then door goes down everyone runs in, heros climb up to inner oil, everyone else has nothing to do but attack door, door goes down all the albs run or die and u fight for less then 10 seconds

    its stupid, you like don't even get to fight back or play anymore, its just ok let all 10 heros climb in, trap us all inside and well wait here to die
  • Budikah wrote: »
    increasing the Mana cost so that it's no longer tenable to spam even with maxed out power regen.

    That's your answer right there.
    DAoC's most watched and fastest growingTwitch Streamer

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  • Or even simpler I think, just have that spread and group heals go through the same LoS check as single target heals.

    Don't need to /face, but still need LoS.
  • edited June 2018 PM
    you have to be able to have have fun with lesser numbers, because that is what you deal with everyday, allowing heavy tanks to trap everyone inside without being really able to do **** is a very slow crippling poison to daoc, people stop showing up cuz its the same results, and slowly and slowly people just stop playing

    daoc is mostly about keep siege, and there is no keep siege most the time now, its just keep get flooded by heavy tanks, you don't have enough people there cuz no one comes cuz its the same everyday and you cant do ****


    that's why they got them ramparts and high towers in keeps and ****, its your homeland and your fortress built for war, why would you make a fortess that you cant evne use to fight off enemies ? you got that **** built up so you can go up and shoot down on them and **** and try to fend them off

    not be trapped down in the cellar on inc in your own fortress... lol

    just saying I think it is a thing that should be looked at and wouldn't take much to fix so a lot of people start enjoying daoc and playing more again


    plus it be better for everyone on the attacking side to, now they got people up top to kill or trying to kil lthem and healers actualy have to do soemthign besides sit in 1 spot and push 1button ect, not just be bored as **** sitting outside while only the heavy tanks get to go in and rvr and have all the fun


    #makekeepsiegefunagain2019
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
  • Most the population follow the mindless hero zerg. Even as a shadowblade hard to pick up any kills when the number imbalance is so much. I find nowdays people don't bother defending unless numbers are closer, which is rare as its normally 50-60 vs 8-18
  • I do agree with Huehuaehue on many of his points and feel that healing as been so much dumbed down.

    Would like to see values dropped for mindless group or spread healing/or increased power cost or/and increased casting time. Targeted heals should be left alone
  • edited June 2018 PM
    They are adding cover for the oil level see how that works out. If anything should see how that pans out for awhile. Hero will do Hero things and healers are working within their classes shouldn’t be a penalty for paying and playing your healing class IMO.

    Maybe do some test runs on Pendragon on the proposed changes before push oil cover to live
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • protecting the oil would be a great start in the right direction, id still like to see only like stealthers be able to climb up and try to get people, all the casters and stuff up on the ramparts and on the tower things inside keeps up high casting down on the people outside as they cast back up Is what creates the siege battle environment, everyone needs to be fighting and going at it, not just pve a door down and bleh do it again fight for 10 sec and its over
  • edited June 2018 PM
    let there be mayham let there be chaos let there be epic battles, this is the dark ages of Camelot after all ! not the Boring ages of ram a door and afk, as 1 class gets to play only :D


    bring back the chaotic hectic dark ages bring back the wars !
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
  • Noone should be able to heal someone without LoS. Ever seen a blind surgeon?
  • edited June 2018 PM
    They also added the new Siege buff which in turn sped up the taking of towers and keeps. This change reduced the ability to defend when you can take an unclaimed tower in what a few minutes max.
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • edited June 2018 PM
    and to be clear, its not about the ability to successful defend a keep with low numbers, its about the ability to successfully still have fun with low numbers, win or lose

    its not fun to be traped inside by a whole bunch of people and not much real chance to do anything, its fun to be up on the ramparts and towers trying to battle and kill people, cuz then even tho you know you prob wont successfully defend it, you'll still go show up cuz you can go and prob get some kills and have a lot of fun trying atleast...not traped inside with 2-3 heros at every postern door with god mode heals from outside, damn near totally stopping your ability to do anything at all (specialy when your only place to go is the roof, and catapults hit for 700 nonstop)

    its like ok guess no point to ever come do this again, I do a lot better fighting stealth grps 1v4 **** going to defend a keep
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
  • edited June 2018 PM
    jq2d7n.png

    nother day out doing solo quest as an ice wiz

    trying to defend keeps 90% the time its like 0 rps 10000 deaths ;\ lol


    is something wrong with that


    let us be able to defend keeps again or die trying ! not just...die without being able to even try... lol ;\
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
  • edited June 2018 PM
    Changing out of LoS healing isn't punishing healing classes, at least not to me. It's fixing a terrible decision in the first place that creates stale gameplay.

    Ciddire did bring up a good counter point though, in that the default group interfaces aren't great for healing unless you use Healer Helper.

    This would have farther reaching changes for everything though - Healers from all realms would need to reconsider positioning and their groups will need to consider their position in relation to the healer beyond "am I in spreadheal range?"

    It's not a change to be made in a vacuum without discussion either.

    "and to be clear, its not about the ability to successful defend a keep with low numbers, its about the ability to successfully still have fun with low numbers, win or lose"

    I agree, and to add to my point above - they just hide a Healer in a tower and that about seals you in unless you can win the DPS race against a hidden healer. If you have lesser numbers defending, going out to rupt or attack the healer isn't exactly a winning proposition.
    Post edited by Budikah on
  • we all used the base ui back in the day with epic 10 min 8v8 fights open field, all night long back to back to back to back vs some of the most competitive 8v8 groups to ever play daoc


    the size of your group window has nothing to do with the out come of fights^^ lol


    unless your retarded and i dunno why you'd share that info anyway
  • edited June 2018 PM
    "we only lost that 8v8 cuz my group window was to small, if i had a better ui we'd wreck you, you don't even know"


    lol, i gotta admit i love forums on all games :D **** makes me giggle, uaheaueUEHAUHEuehauheauehauheuHUAHUEHAUHe :p
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
  • edited June 2018 PM
    You do realize that screen resolution and monitor sizes have changed? People who play this game are in their 40s-50s as well?

    I don't have a problem with it. Other people do.

    Euehahsuehaheiaheue. [no]
    Post edited by Carol_Broadsword on
  • edited June 2018 PM
    I get what @Huehuaehue is saying and I can't disagree with his assessment of things as they are. I will say that we should hold off on making any changes in regards to this till after 1.125 comes out and we see what they add in keep sieges. It may not be an issue after that.
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • Need to be adjusted, you've lost a huge chunk of the casual fanbase because it's an utter shambles to even defend a keep.
  • So, if the tanks are climbing in to keep you off the oil and walls then why not jump out the postern with a group and run around front to kill some healers and casters? You complain that healers are hiding in safety, take away their safety. Defending healers are inside free casting from safety as well and they can't be jump with use of a postern. Feels like the pot calling the kettle black.
  • We have mentioned the following as regards the outer oil as one of the changes in 1.125:
    Keep and tower difficulty adjustments, including attackable ‘postern’ doors that protect keep gatehouses’ boiling oil areas!
    DAoC Community Lead
    Broadsword Online Games
  • I hope your not going to add doors like on the milegates that 1 melee can break down in under 30 seconds... lol ;\
  • and all that does is take the oil that doesn't kill **** anymore in todays daoc not kill anything for a few more mins

    still gonna be traped inside by unkillable tanks with godmode heals outside the walls, unable to do anything still


    remove climb walls from tanks is the key imo, then all the casters outside and healers and things have stuff to do, they get to enjoy keep siege again, battling each other, cant just have them sit outside afk, as 1 class climbs in and gets all the pvp as everyone else is mindlyless bored

    it would return real keep siege rvr battles everyday, not just pveing a door down as no real interaction is allowed to happen between players
  • You've forgotten about the 10 vamps strapped to heros back as well. Nothing lives through a slam and claw spam.
    I don't agree with removing climbing from heavy tanks. In the state of the game as it is, next tanks are almost useless now. Classes now have siege boost. Heavy tanks use to be key ingredients in seige fights.... Not so anymore. And open field, just root them.
    I think protecting the oil level is a start. Keeping pets from going into closed towers and keeps is another fix that needs to happen.
  • Just Ban heroroious and be done with it. Honestly, no one 8 mans anymore, and if there is a cursed raid, or Hero is on there is literally nothing to do. PvP wise.

    And for the record, all 3 realms can do the same thing (and I have seen them do the same thing) just not daily, the whole time they are one.

    And if we are fixing fighting bigger numbers with smaller numbers thats great! Getting sick of running into this late night Mid zerg that just rolls around the island holding hands and claim to 8man, meanwhile there is 24 sitting in their discord server......
  • edited June 2018 PM
    Remove siege dmg reduction song too .
    Post edited by Hellblast on
  • edited June 2018 PM
    Badnagen wrote: »
    So, if the tanks are climbing in to keep you off the oil and walls then why not jump out the postern with a group and run around front to kill some healers and casters? You complain that healers are hiding in safety, take away their safety. Defending healers are inside free casting from safety as well and they can't be jump with use of a postern. Feels like the pot calling the kettle black.

    In some cases, you can. In others, not so easy.

    My whole point is that you shouldn't be able to perform a majority of your classes functionality while entirely out of LoS and fairly spread out from your group. It's lazy and crap mechanics for a game IMO. It makes sieges stale. This game has way too much in terms of damage mitigation/self healing already. Stick near you party and actually have to make decisions regarding positioning. If 2-3 melee in your group want to risk running around a corner and up a tower to beat somebody up - either follow them or they need to realize that they aren't going to get much in terms of healing.

    Any change would affect defending healers as well, who will need to expose themselves to heal whoever is outside taking damage.

    Not that I see this idea actually being taken seriously. Everyone who enjoys hanging out semi-AFK spamming the spread heal button would croak if they actually had to hustle and the number of people who run off and die and rage at their healer would be comical.
    Post edited by Budikah on
  • I totally agree with @Budikah , taking climb walls put of heroes would bring them back to being ram bots in sieges.

    I really like the idea of better LoS on spread/group heals, would really make for some interesting gameplay. No more running mindlessly inside a keep as a tank, you’ll actually have to think.
  • STOP asking them to reivent the wheel?! I agree with the post but stop changing classes drastically this late in the game. Hero has always done what he does, except now due to the damage and gear creep a lot better.

    Healers shouldn’t be penalized or changed for paying and playing their classes.

    Please consider small changes over time not drastically altering classes who have been this way since literally the Beta
  • Lol @ Static...banning players that play the game as intended :s
    Also dont blame a single Player for this situation. In fact the community is lucky to still have single individuals like Herorius, Solic, u name them, that still care for the game. The socalled casual playerbase needs "Loyalty", daylies and OW10 from time to time..

    Most hibs Log out when the battlegroup comes to its end, but if people are up to it they even attempt to take relics like sunday. I dont believe that enemy realms would split up their zergs because one realm only runs 8man..not gonna happen.. we would need retirement homes for all the poor (former) hammerspamin thanes..and god knows what other classes/specs as well.

    On the topic: PvE-ing keeps is not what people want you all know that. But making fulltanks rambots again is no solution either.

    I think @Fateboi is right..smaller changes instead of another NF/keep/class revamp

  • I also agree with @Fateboi. Small changes. No need to revamp everything on a 15+ year old game.
  • @Moradan lol at literally everything you just said.

    From time to time I can understand, but 5-6-10 times a week is overkill. Honestly don't know how people are not geared out with as much as it runs.

    And what happened Sun? Dono what realm your on but Hero literally opens the gates just to try and kill buff bots. There was no real intention on taking the relic. That why he would pull the entire zerg to go and chase solos, which is how the zerg died the first time, the next 2 times Hero was literally saying rebuff and kamakazi the relic town..... which, I'll admit is funny to try but, honestly, what is to be gained by that after the first attempt. That is straight feeding RP's. And yes, I know they are not going to ban him, or Solic, its a joke, a meme, satire if you will.
  • Staticc wrote: »
    @Moradan lol at literally everything you just said.

    From time to time I can understand, but 5-6-10 times a week is overkill. Honestly don't know how people are not geared out with as much as it runs.

    And what happened Sun? Dono what realm your on but Hero literally opens the gates just to try and kill buff bots. There was no real intention on taking the relic. That why he would pull the entire zerg to go and chase solos, which is how the zerg died the first time, the next 2 times Hero was literally saying rebuff and kamakazi the relic town..... which, I'll admit is funny to try but, honestly, what is to be gained by that after the first attempt. That is straight feeding RP's. And yes, I know they are not going to ban him, or Solic, its a joke, a meme, satire if you will.

    Umm -- did u ever bother to look at the bonuses -- there is a reason there is no one to kill --- perhaps one day that will get addressed ....
  • Staticc wrote: »
    @Moradan lol at literally everything you just said.

    From time to time I can understand, but 5-6-10 times a week is overkill. Honestly don't know how people are not geared out with as much as it runs.

    And what happened Sun? Dono what realm your on but Hero literally opens the gates just to try and kill buff bots. There was no real intention on taking the relic. That why he would pull the entire zerg to go and chase solos, which is how the zerg died the first time, the next 2 times Hero was literally saying rebuff and kamakazi the relic town..... which, I'll admit is funny to try but, honestly, what is to be gained by that after the first attempt. That is straight feeding RP's. And yes, I know they are not going to ban him, or Solic, its a joke, a meme, satire if you will.

    OW + Curse raids can be run every single day, but depending on your life/timezone you may never actually get to attend one.

    ... and when you do, it might just bug out anyways.

  • @ huehue

    You are saying that 2 heroes can "trap" and "make totally useless" 15-20 albs inside a keep?
    Because they can climb? And have heals? Really?

    You can always:

    - call for help in region where the groups are going to come in the posterns and help nuke people from the courtyard
    - have albs port in and set up in there
    - leave the inner keep and run around the corner and interrupt/kill the healers and casters near the door
    - have a few tanks go up to the oil themselves and fight the heroes (they are going to be in heal range too)
    - have your own casters go up a little higher in the side turrets where the npc scouts are and attack the healers and casters from there, so that a group of your own casters can take down the heroes while its heals are busy or interrupted
    - attack the heroes with siege equipment that does massive damage while your casters are also hitting them
    - have stealthers camp the oil to all jump on the hero(es) at once and if it takes 6 of them to take him out, so be it

    You need to get creative and remember that there is more than one way for a keep siege to go. heroes have climb walls for a reason. there is also no reason or justification for making healing any more cumbersome or 100% LoS dependent. if there arent enough albs to put up a good defense, or the ones that do show up are ineffective, thats not an issue with how healing works or the hero class itself. are you really going to let 2 heavy tanks make 20 of you look like a joke? when you have necros and theurgists on your side? we show up at a keep expecting a decent defense effort, and this is what you have to say? change how healing works, and nerf the hero? seriously? have you ever actually done real rvr before? x_x
  • edited June 2018 PM
    obviously you are just talking and have no experience in the matter, there is a huge population imbalance and the climb walls is making it so 1 side cant even fight back at all, everyday for a long time now

    how its setup now is fine if you have 75 vs 75, but when its 75 vs like 10-20 everyday and you have 10-15 gd mode tanks in there you cant even fight back or have fun or even play the game really, you just sit inside with 2-3 heros at every postern door with super heals from way outside keep

    you have to keep updating your game to make it enjoyable for everyone as things change and time goes on, when something is no longer working you need to change it, cant just keep let it fail, and changing 1 lil ability can cause a major amount of people to start having fun again everyday


    you have to be able to have fun defending with lesser numbers even if you wont sucesfully save the keep, people are just traped inside by way to many tanks and don't even get to do anything and stop coming (which is what really happens people talk aobut it in chat all the time saying don't even go bother to defend, then the ones who want to play anyway cant do **** and then everyone has to boat for 20 mins to get stealth zerged down are like ok well this is stupid wonder what other games are fun these days ;\
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
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