I’d like to congratulate you amp on rr12 great achievement .The recent patches benefited hib tanks a lot the enchanter and champion combo in a hib tank group is very strong I could never figure out why hibs needed the melee boost that comes in the enchantment line be nice if we had something similar on alb mid were also benefitted hugely with charge 5 for light tanks again but the main thing that has damaged the alb heavy tank train is heals and the amount of heals you come up against.
The recent patches have made it increasingly hard for a heavy alb tank train unless you interupt massively you will never out dps most groups.
I don’t play my armsman now because basically it’s a peel bot now and only run if I’m in a 16 man or if I have the right group set up which these days on alb is increasingly difficult.
When you close on a luri or kobold caster and whiffle for 2 minutes and it’s health stays at 100 percent you got to think something wrong in this game.
I add that on mid on hib I never have that problem once I close on something with hib or mid tanks especially on a caster it’s dead.
In zergs it’s subpar mainly because of most of the above.
I’d like to see a general toning down on heals overall and some sort of dps enhancement for armsmen whether that’s a group buff from another class or a spec point change.
I also would like to add to the "too much healing" argument. My brother and I were duo on my Arms and his Pally (rr4 and 7) last night. We assisted on a caster and we were both hitting with our 2H weapons for around 400 (rear snare style).... a single druid easily kept said caster's life above 90%. We could not get that caster down...meanwhile he (on his nearly rr8 Pally in a top of the line temp with resist buffs up) got nuked for over 1k and I was nuked for 700s+ by this same caster. Something seems broken here.
As I think about it, Old Frontiers(pre TOA) was more balanced. Sure RA paths and most specs were cookie cutter like, but it came to skill more or less. Now more and more keeps getting added to the game and seems like it is causing more issues. The Armsman class has gotten weaker in recent years because of a lot of changes. The main tank of each realm should pummel the crap out of a caster, I always thought that was the reasoning behind all this game’s CC in the first place. To keep them away from the soft targets. But with the buffs, chants, procs, abilities(shammy), etc it doesn’t matter nowadays.
the problem is they don't understand daoc played on a real level, so when they make changes they don't understand how unbalanced it will be with someone that been around the block a few times, and not all classes have been brought into broadswords 21st century daoc, armsman 1 of them, they def need an upgrade, but hard to think of what without totally **** everything off, altho they've no problem with that so, hopefuly they'll add something for ya soon ! ;p
and u cant expect to kill anyone with range dmg or snares on a non charge melee char, that's just the **** part of them, and because of that... you def should be able to stand your own vs melee's ect or w/e
*edit* and the problem is soloing (imo), and soloing can be tuff cuz most people only go solo on the op 1v1 chars or w/e, so if your not 1 of them it can be ruff cuz is soo many of them chars running around ;\
I’d like to congratulate you amp on rr12 great achievement .The recent patches benefited hib tanks a lot the enchanter and champion combo in a hib tank group is very strong I could never figure out why hibs needed the melee boost that comes in the enchantment line be nice if we had something similar on alb mid were also benefitted hugely with charge 5 for light tanks again but the main thing that has damaged the alb heavy tank train is heals and the amount of heals you come up against.
The recent patches have made it increasingly hard for a heavy alb tank train unless you interupt massively you will never out dps most groups.
I don’t play my armsman now because basically it’s a peel bot now and only run if I’m in a 16 man or if I have the right group set up which these days on alb is increasingly difficult.
When you close on a luri or kobold caster and whiffle for 2 minutes and it’s health stays at 100 percent you got to think something wrong in this game.
I add that on mid on hib I never have that problem once I close on something with hib or mid tanks especially on a caster it’s dead.
In zergs it’s subpar mainly because of most of the above.
I’d like to see a general toning down on heals overall and some sort of dps enhancement for armsmen whether that’s a group buff from another class or a spec point change.
I also would like to add to the "too much healing" argument. My brother and I were duo on my Arms and his Pally (rr4 and 7) last night. We assisted on a caster and we were both hitting with our 2H weapons for around 400 (rear snare style).... a single druid easily kept said caster's life above 90%. We could not get that caster down...meanwhile he (on his nearly rr8 Pally in a top of the line temp with resist buffs up) got nuked for over 1k and I was nuked for 700s+ by this same caster. Something seems broken here.
I understood where @Flik was coming from in terms of the wide angled view of the game overall but I still concur that Armsmen (in terms of overall utility/abilities/defense) is the weakest of the 3 heavies.
I know people have said that Armsmen hit the hardest but I'll put it this way. My armsman has logged 900-1000 damage swings, on incredibly rare occurrences, against probably casters that had lost their shield and I had a abs/resist debuff on em.
So yeah, armsmen have the potential of dishing out high dps with polearm but that's about the only thing that stands out on em. Much better and more consistent melee dps out there (hint, I did temp a merc).
So my armsman is retired for the time being, hit rr12 but it was such a drag even mustering the desire to log him on at times, subpar class that is heavily reliant on grouping.
the problem is they don't understand daoc played on a real level, so when they make changes they don't understand how unbalanced it will be with someone that been around the block a few times, and not all classes have been brought into broadswords 21st century daoc, armsman 1 of them, they def need an upgrade, but hard to think of what without totally **** everything off, altho they've no problem with that so, hopefuly they'll add something for ya soon ! ;p
and u cant expect to kill anyone with range dmg or snares on a non charge melee char, that's just the **** part of them, and because of that... you def should be able to stand your own vs melee's ect or w/e
*edit* and the problem is soloing (imo), and soloing can be tuff cuz most people only go solo on the op 1v1 chars or w/e, so if your not 1 of them it can be ruff cuz is soo many of them chars running around ;\
Agree'd. That's my biggest issue. Classes keep changing and being altered/upgraded and Armsmen are continually dropping further and further behind.
As much as I love my Armsman, his play time will now be drastically reduced since I've achieved rr12 on him until the Heavy Tanks receive some polishing. Primarily increasing the available spec points for Armsman, increasing the weapon variety in the slash/crush polearms fields and introducing snapshot as a 15 min RUT class specific ability are 3 things that have come out of this thread that would not be considered over powered but would be of slight benefit to the class.
Personally I think allowing the group 3% absorb buff to also affect the tanks wouldn't be such a bad idea either.
I’d be all for giving some new abilities. Even just an interupting taunt
that would make you a melee hybrid ... are you willing to give up all the heavy tank benefits for a interupting ranged ability ?
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Heavy tanks require a lot of support. With enough healing and interrupts from support det9 heavy tanks are beastly. The problem is albs tend to be more caster heavy and therefore the heavy tanks or any tanks for that matter are left out to dry
is that a fault of the the class or a fault of groups albs run ?
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
I appreciate your input @Flik and I agree with you but I counter on this... valewalkers were amazing 1v1, right? Yet they were upgraded to make them more desirable for groups. Why can't that be the case for the Armsman then in your opinion?
I only agree with you on the fact that yes, with the appropriate group setup Armsmen can be very effective. But isn't that pretty much true for EVERY class in the game?
I was personally 100%'d by a rr5 mauler. Yes the mauler knew what he was doing but it's insane that a rr12 Arms get's worked by any freaking class with a HoT.
Likewise our supposedly great rr5. I literally was just slammed with my rr5 active and lost a fight against a warrior.
This isn't just observations coming from someone knowledgeable with the game, this is coming from someone who's essentially exclusively played an Armsman for the last 4 years.
I appreciate your knowledge but I would appreciate it also if you'd leave your subjective interpretation of a class in certain conditions as that; applicable to certain conditions.
that says more about maulers than about armsmen .. you think other melee characters fare well against a solo specced and geared mauler (or vamp) ? maybe maulers and vamps need a look, not heavy tank then.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
I’d like to congratulate you amp on rr12 great achievement .The recent patches benefited hib tanks a lot the enchanter and champion combo in a hib tank group is very strong I could never figure out why hibs needed the melee boost that comes in the enchantment line be nice if we had something similar on alb mid were also benefitted hugely with charge 5 for light tanks again but the main thing that has damaged the alb heavy tank train is heals and the amount of heals you come up against.
The recent patches have made it increasingly hard for a heavy alb tank train unless you interupt massively you will never out dps most groups.
I don’t play my armsman now because basically it’s a peel bot now and only run if I’m in a 16 man or if I have the right group set up which these days on alb is increasingly difficult.
When you close on a luri or kobold caster and whiffle for 2 minutes and it’s health stays at 100 percent you got to think something wrong in this game.
I add that on mid on hib I never have that problem once I close on something with hib or mid tanks especially on a caster it’s dead.
In zergs it’s subpar mainly because of most of the above.
I’d like to see a general toning down on heals overall and some sort of dps enhancement for armsmen whether that’s a group buff from another class or a spec point change.
I also would like to add to the "too much healing" argument. My brother and I were duo on my Arms and his Pally (rr4 and 7) last night. We assisted on a caster and we were both hitting with our 2H weapons for around 400 (rear snare style).... a single druid easily kept said caster's life above 90%. We could not get that caster down...meanwhile he (on his nearly rr8 Pally in a top of the line temp with resist buffs up) got nuked for over 1k and I was nuked for 700s+ by this same caster. Something seems broken here.
... a caster is not hitting an armsman or paladin for 700+ unless an other caster is debuffing. that simple. are you sure you were not fighting a caster mauler ?
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
I appreciate your input @Flik and I agree with you but I counter on this... valewalkers were amazing 1v1, right? Yet they were upgraded to make them more desirable for groups. Why can't that be the case for the Armsman then in your opinion?
I only agree with you on the fact that yes, with the appropriate group setup Armsmen can be very effective. But isn't that pretty much true for EVERY class in the game?
I was personally 100%'d by a rr5 mauler. Yes the mauler knew what he was doing but it's insane that a rr12 Arms get's worked by any freaking class with a HoT.
Likewise our supposedly great rr5. I literally was just slammed with my rr5 active and lost a fight against a warrior.
This isn't just observations coming from someone knowledgeable with the game, this is coming from someone who's essentially exclusively played an Armsman for the last 4 years.
I appreciate your knowledge but I would appreciate it also if you'd leave your subjective interpretation of a class in certain conditions as that; applicable to certain conditions.
that says more about maulers than about armsmen .. you think other melee characters fare well against a solo specced and geared mauler (or vamp) ? maybe maulers and vamps need a look, not heavy tank then.
I don't think anyone would disagree that Heavy Tanks have DECREASED in overall effectiveness and utility following the recent (year+) barrage of class changes. That is the whole point of this thread is to discuss how HT's and Armsmen in particular, being the weakest of the three, can be polished up slightly to keep them more in pace with the current state of the game.
There have been a ton of great ideas and counters posted throughout this thread and I hope the Dev's are taking all suggestions into account. Both the pro's and con's of tweaking a class are necessary to take into consideration in order to reduce the probability of that class becoming overpowered.
I’d like to congratulate you amp on rr12 great achievement .The recent patches benefited hib tanks a lot the enchanter and champion combo in a hib tank group is very strong I could never figure out why hibs needed the melee boost that comes in the enchantment line be nice if we had something similar on alb mid were also benefitted hugely with charge 5 for light tanks again but the main thing that has damaged the alb heavy tank train is heals and the amount of heals you come up against.
The recent patches have made it increasingly hard for a heavy alb tank train unless you interupt massively you will never out dps most groups.
I don’t play my armsman now because basically it’s a peel bot now and only run if I’m in a 16 man or if I have the right group set up which these days on alb is increasingly difficult.
When you close on a luri or kobold caster and whiffle for 2 minutes and it’s health stays at 100 percent you got to think something wrong in this game.
I add that on mid on hib I never have that problem once I close on something with hib or mid tanks especially on a caster it’s dead.
In zergs it’s subpar mainly because of most of the above.
I’d like to see a general toning down on heals overall and some sort of dps enhancement for armsmen whether that’s a group buff from another class or a spec point change.
I also would like to add to the "too much healing" argument. My brother and I were duo on my Arms and his Pally (rr4 and 7) last night. We assisted on a caster and we were both hitting with our 2H weapons for around 400 (rear snare style).... a single druid easily kept said caster's life above 90%. We could not get that caster down...meanwhile he (on his nearly rr8 Pally in a top of the line temp with resist buffs up) got nuked for over 1k and I was nuked for 700s+ by this same caster. Something seems broken here.
... a caster is not hitting an armsman or paladin for 700+ unless an other caster is debuffing. that simple. are you sure you were not fighting a caster mauler ?
100% positive. It looked like big crits as other spells from that caster were around 200 less. Even if we were being debuffed that is still a problem IMO.
Casters can still do respectable damage to HT's even with AoM9. The only saving grace is if you can time your Fury ability appropriately or if you are a warrior and can testudo.
As far as Armsmen are concerned I'd still like to see more 6.0 speed weapon options in the polearm line as well as a slight increase in spec points to compensate for the double spec requirement.
I know this thread has/is being followed by @Carol_Broadsword , any word on opening up HT's (specifically Armsmen) for discussion internally Beibs?
I don't think anyone would disagree that Heavy Tanks have DECREASED in overall effectiveness and utility following the recent (year+) barrage of class changes.
I disagree
Heavy tanks more so Heros and Armsmens are in a great place in all play styles.
Warriors are great - However i feel Hib and Alb have better supporting classes additionally Mid has so many other great tank/hybrid options as well to fill/fit into a group.
I don't think anyone would disagree that Heavy Tanks have DECREASED in overall effectiveness and utility following the recent (year+) barrage of class changes.
I disagree
Heavy tanks more so Heros and Armsmens are in a great place in all play styles.
Warriors are great - However i feel Hib and Alb have better supporting classes additionally Mid has so many other great tank/hybrid options as well to fill/fit into a group.
I 100% disagree with the suggestion that HT's specifically Hero's and Armsmen are great in "all play styles". I will and have admitted that Armsmen are proficient in small-man/8man/zerg game play but they have drastically withered away in terms of solo capability due to the increase in effectiveness of the other classes (see LT's and Sin's).
Armsmen are fantastic if paired with a Pally+whatever else is necessary (heretic AF+HP boon is very nice to stack as well).
There is also very low weapon diversity within the slash/crush polearm lines as well; this has been an issue that I've nitpicked for well over a year now.
Hero's still have the edge on Armsmen in terms of solo/small-man/group/zerg game play simply due to their Stag morph. Of course I would never request anything similar on the Arms because that is a Hero specific (and quite neat) ability.
Warriors I will continue to argue are more effective than Hero's and Armsmen in all aspects of game play. Especially in zerg warfare if the Warrior is rr5 and is able to utilize testudo.
HT's have not been touched, in any significant regard, for years (aside from the blanket anytime style nerfs that affected all melee classes). Therefore they've remained stagnant in terms of effectiveness. This wouldn't be a problem if a multitude of other classes weren't continually altered every single patch earning numerous new abilities, having abilities nerfed, tweaked, upgraded, etc.
This has put HT's in a slow but steady decline over the years (most specifically in their ability to solo). I know BS has no problem taking solo classes and trying to increase their group capability (see Vamps [pre-pet nerf] and Valewalkers).
What I would like to see for Armsmen in particular is an increase in the amount of skill points they earn due to the necessary requirement of sub-speccing a weapon type. I don't think it'd be horrendously overpowered if a 50polearm/42 shield/31(+21) MH weapon spec armsmen is able to train up to 30-34 points into parry compared to the 23 or so that is available currently.
The Polearm/2H lines also need a bit a love. Slight increases in growth styles was suggested earlier in this thread and I still agree with that suggestion. It would also be tremendously helpful if there were more weapons available in the Crush/Slash polearm lines (still find it interesting that all of the 2h/polearm cursed/frozen weapons are thrust only).
I would like to bring this thread back into conversation. As it seems broadsword is willing to alter classes (see previous patch notes with changes to WL and PBAOE) I believe it is appropriate to re-discuss this topic.
Please feel free to sift through the conversations and/or offer opinions and ideas regarding the state of the Heavy Tanks in 2020 DAoC.
I just said to my brother last night that I wish BS would do something that actually made my Armsman worth playing. ATM My friar is a VASTLY superior duo/body guard partner than my Arms. I cannot think of a single thing the Arms does better than any other toon option save for maybe climb walls which whoopty do... (No heavies should have this ability IMO)
Ok so what I have noticed playing a caster is that my survival rate is actually higher than on a tank I can seriously take a lot of damage it’s crazy I’ve been in 2 keep fights lately and I’m 100 percent sure I would of died to other tanks but on the sorc a split body sorc at that I’m taking crap load of damage and killing something seriously wrong with balance of casters to tanks.
I just said to my brother last night that I wish BS would do something that actually made my Armsman worth playing. ATM My friar is a VASTLY superior duo/body guard partner than my Arms. I cannot think of a single thing the Arms does better than any other toon option save for maybe climb walls which whoopty do... (No heavies should have this ability IMO)
This is basically the argument that ends up getting x class made more OP when in fact the real argument is maybe that Class y (friar in this example) needs to be toned down. Also this argument always needs to be considered in relation not to other classes on the realm but other classes on the other two realms. Realm balance has always been about balance between the realms, not balance inside of your realm. Each class has stuff it's better at.
Also, all 3 realms have the same issue with heavy tank. It's a situational class.
Ok so what I have noticed playing a caster is that my survival rate is actually higher than on a tank I can seriously take a lot of damage it’s crazy I’ve been in 2 keep fights lately and I’m 100 percent sure I would of died to other tanks but on the sorc a split body sorc at that I’m taking crap load of damage and killing something seriously wrong with balance of casters to tanks.
Some albs were complaining about how underpowered the sorc was. Then it was buffed significantly. So now you are complaining about how your sorc is so much more powerful than your alb tank that you want your alb tank to be more powerful?
The answer is probably that sorc needs a nerf unless you can quote any RM/Bain/BD/Chanter/Eld/SM/Ment who believes their survival rate is higher than on a tank.
Oh dear I believe I have triggered you Koe just stating my observations didn’t say he was powerfull just stated he’s a lot more resilliant than my tank I’ve had the same feeling when playing my warlock as well and my sm and eldritch and enchanter they are all very good in rvr especially the eldritch and enchanter but what stands out with all of them is how tough they are.
Casters were not meant to be that tough if it upsets you that I’ve found that and it might mean your class getting nerfed well I think that’s good for the game don’t you.
Saying a caster is more resilient than a heavy is a bit dumb tbh. You mentionned you die a lot more on your tank in keep defence, do you just stand in the middle of the courtyard waiting for 15 casters to assist you down?
Heavies great in 8, defo not lack in zerg, and far from bad at solo. Still don't get it.
Edit: although if by miracle BS agree they need change, i will have so much fun till they nerf it back.
Now to be honest this isn't a viable argument, but an honest opinion.
"Heavies great in 8" - Sure, Heavy tanks play a role in 8 man for the most part (although can easily be replaced and are not absolutely necessary). They exist to peel/snare and try and keep the soft targets protected. With Det 9 and AoM 9 they're viable. However, as is true with most classes, anything has the potential to perform well in an 8 man if the 8 man is skilled and structured to support the other classes.
"defo not lack in zerg" - To be honest, there really isn't a necessary "build" for zerg play. That's the point of zergs. It's a numbers game. However what you may be referencing is Hero's use of his tanks to overwhelm catwalks during keep takes. This is an example of how effective the Hero is in synergy with Hibernian classes and is a Niche example. Obviously the Armsmen aren't being utilized in similar zerg fashion for a number of reasons (zerg leader play/style - keep defense vs attack - Armsmen don't have the survivability that Hero's do).
"...and far from bad at solo" - I don't know how much things have changed since I last played over a year ago, but the whole reason this thread originated was the subpar performance of Armsmen in particular in solo play. Unless they've recently made some alteration I do not see how this isn't still relevant.
To clarify a point. I never once stated that Armsmen or Heavy Tanks were unplayable. That an Armsman is completely ineffective in all forms of RvR play nor could they not solo.
The point is that Armsmen in particular are behind in comparison to the warrior and hero (if given an option a warrior or hero would be chosen over an armsmen 9 times out of 10). Especially with the transitioning meta of gameplay, item alterations, survivability in general, Armsmen need a revamp to modernize the class.
@Amp_Phetamine
So heavies still good in 8 we kind of agreed on that one bit at least. Hero leverages tanks better in zergs then others is not the classes fault, and sorry but not much to do with only being Hib.
As for solo, still don't think they suck. They are not the best, nor should be in every given scenario. There are some classes that overperform nowdays, but that is not a valid argument to start boosting them 1 by 1 to start all over again. Heavies are perfectly where they should be, and played well they are far from underpowered, but of course have to add IMHO.
@Amp_Phetamine
So heavies still good in 8 we kind of agreed on that one bit at least. Hero leverages tanks better in zergs then others is not the classes fault, and sorry but not much to do with only being Hib.
As for solo, still don't think they suck. They are not the best, nor should be in every given scenario. There are some classes that overperform nowdays, but that is not a valid argument to start boosting them 1 by 1 to start all over again. Heavies are perfectly where they should be, and played well they are far from underpowered, but of course have to add IMHO.
It's fair to disagree.
The state of the Hero in zerg game play is the result of a multitude of variables and strategic usage by the zerg leader and should not be a variable in determining if a class needs adjusted or not. It cannot be argued that the synergy of Hibernian classes directly benefits the Hero either (think a combination of enchanter enchantment buff with warden pbt/hots and druid/bard heals). I'm not saying this is "over powered", it's just better usage of realm synergy.
Within the heavy tank archtype, i.e. comparing the hero, armsman and warrior, the armsman is bottom of the three. There is no argument otherwise, its a fact that has existed since before this thread was made. That doesn't mean that armsmen are unplayable, it simply states that in the "overall" view of the game - their level of effectiveness has sloped downward for years.
I also stated that in terms of solo game play all of the heavy tanks have the ability to perform. They are not "solo" archtypes by design therefore will always be at somewhat of a disadvantage against hybrid toons and more "solo friendly" archtypes. However, within the archtype of heavy tanks - the armsman has the least utility and effectiveness to solo.
I've stated this before and I'll state it again. By no means am I requesting any of the 3 heavy tanks and certainly not the armsmen be revamped into an over powered class. However, there comes a time when the class needs reviewed as it is certainly subpar in today's game play.
There are fairly "simple" ways to modernize the class. It doesn't need to be given anything new, that's how classes become broken/overpowered.
I, along with others, have listed multiple "reasonable" suggestions that would allow the class to have better utility in all aspects of play while not "breaking" the armsman class.
If @Broadsword is willing to randomly alter pbaoe delve values across the board, change the warlock class, revert it, change it again, etc., then it is high time they look at the heavy tanks and Armsman class specifically and modernize the class.
Edit: Just to be clear - I don't necessarily disagree with you @Gavner. I was able to compete and play my armsman to rr12 - it was simply like playing with a 10-15% effectiveness debuff at all times though to put it into perspective.
Hate me all you want, but heavies don't need to be touched. They're in a good spot and anything changed will break them. We all know there is no such thing as a slight buff in this game. They're in a good spot if anything was to be added it should be a slight increase in spec points for arms to bring them up a bit in terms of heavy tanks.
Just because some classes are brokenly OP doesn't mean you should break another class to put it on par with those. Adjust the certain classes that are over performing and leave heavies where they are.
Hate me all you want, but heavies don't need to be touched. They're in a good spot and anything changed will break them. We all know there is no such thing as a slight buff in this game. They're in a good spot if anything was to be added it should be a slight increase in spec points for arms to bring them up a bit in terms of heavy tanks.
Just because some classes are brokenly OP doesn't mean you should break another class to put it on par with those. Adjust the certain classes that are over performing and leave heavies where they are.
I've always respected you Impounded.
The only thing I'm requesting is a 'dust off' of the Armsman class in particular. A slight increase in spec points to offset the defense that is lost for sub specializing weapon type is great example of a reasonable idea.
There are ways to "modernize" a class without making it the flavor of the month.
Variables to consider for the Armsman that can be altered without breaking the class:
1. Polearm/2-h base dps/growth rate increases unique only to the Armsman (I still love you Paladins)
2. increase in specialization skill points (probably the most rationale and less likely to break the class idea)
3. Alterations to crossbow???
4. Better absorption/damage mitigation on armor (armsmen only, plate)
These aren't requests or demands. Simply suggestions of variables that could be considered to better the Armsman's current lack of utility and effectiveness.
Variables to consider for the Armsman that can be altered without breaking the class:
1. Polearm/2-h base dps/growth rate increases unique only to the Armsman (I still love you Paladins)
2. increase in specialization skill points (probably the most rationale and less likely to break the class idea)
3. Alterations to crossbow???
I can get behind these options. And wouldn't mind seeing arms get a nice adjustment. I have played all 3 and by far arms was the most lacking.
Armsmen aren't broken... I'm shocked more people don't run them and more heavies in general. I think most of it is due to slam crutch and a ton of people spec for slam. This is stupid and a waste of spec points.
Armsmen aren't broken... I'm shocked more people don't run them and more heavies in general. I think most of it is due to slam crutch and a ton of people spec for slam. This is stupid and a waste of spec points.
How in the motherloving Eff is speccing slam a waste of spec points as a heavy? What should they be speccing then, 50 parry!?
I personally believe that Warriors are the top Heavy in the game currently. I prefer my warrior to my Hero by far. I enjoy my hero but would trade my realm points on my hero to my warrior if possible. I love the idea of being able to spec for one damage type and being able to use both 2 handed and 1 handed without penalty. My hero is spec'd 50 CS, 42 shield (I prefer not to get tactics), 39 parry and 6 blades for the taunt. While I have a lot of survivability on my hero, I prefer Testudo coupled with their cloak /use ability for 10 seconds of group 100% magic Resist Bonus and 100% Crowd Control Deflection Bonus. Again, this is only my opinion.
I suppose for hero and armsman maybe, but if you only 8man what is an extra 15 or so points in parry going to do for you anywyays instead of having slam....
Edit: warrior can go 50weap, 42 shield, 41 parry anyways so there's no point in not getting slam for warrior
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I also would like to add to the "too much healing" argument. My brother and I were duo on my Arms and his Pally (rr4 and 7) last night. We assisted on a caster and we were both hitting with our 2H weapons for around 400 (rear snare style).... a single druid easily kept said caster's life above 90%. We could not get that caster down...meanwhile he (on his nearly rr8 Pally in a top of the line temp with resist buffs up) got nuked for over 1k and I was nuked for 700s+ by this same caster. Something seems broken here.
and u cant expect to kill anyone with range dmg or snares on a non charge melee char, that's just the **** part of them, and because of that... you def should be able to stand your own vs melee's ect or w/e
*edit* and the problem is soloing (imo), and soloing can be tuff cuz most people only go solo on the op 1v1 chars or w/e, so if your not 1 of them it can be ruff cuz is soo many of them chars running around ;\
Thank you as well @Brut !
I understood where @Flik was coming from in terms of the wide angled view of the game overall but I still concur that Armsmen (in terms of overall utility/abilities/defense) is the weakest of the 3 heavies.
I know people have said that Armsmen hit the hardest but I'll put it this way. My armsman has logged 900-1000 damage swings, on incredibly rare occurrences, against probably casters that had lost their shield and I had a abs/resist debuff on em.
So yeah, armsmen have the potential of dishing out high dps with polearm but that's about the only thing that stands out on em. Much better and more consistent melee dps out there (hint, I did temp a merc).
So my armsman is retired for the time being, hit rr12 but it was such a drag even mustering the desire to log him on at times, subpar class that is heavily reliant on grouping.
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it'll make you love your class, whenever I am feeling down I remember I never have to log my scout again and I get cheerful again ! lol
Agree'd. That's my biggest issue. Classes keep changing and being altered/upgraded and Armsmen are continually dropping further and further behind.
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The furthest I'll ever take a scout is to CV lol
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Get this back on topic
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Make Armsmen Great 2k19!!!...except against Luri Rangers!! lol
Personally I think allowing the group 3% absorb buff to also affect the tanks wouldn't be such a bad idea either.
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that would make you a melee hybrid ... are you willing to give up all the heavy tank benefits for a interupting ranged ability ?
is that a fault of the the class or a fault of groups albs run ?
that says more about maulers than about armsmen .. you think other melee characters fare well against a solo specced and geared mauler (or vamp) ? maybe maulers and vamps need a look, not heavy tank then.
... a caster is not hitting an armsman or paladin for 700+ unless an other caster is debuffing. that simple. are you sure you were not fighting a caster mauler ?
I agree with that viewpoint Muy.
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There have been a ton of great ideas and counters posted throughout this thread and I hope the Dev's are taking all suggestions into account. Both the pro's and con's of tweaking a class are necessary to take into consideration in order to reduce the probability of that class becoming overpowered.
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100% positive. It looked like big crits as other spells from that caster were around 200 less. Even if we were being debuffed that is still a problem IMO.
As far as Armsmen are concerned I'd still like to see more 6.0 speed weapon options in the polearm line as well as a slight increase in spec points to compensate for the double spec requirement.
I know this thread has/is being followed by @Carol_Broadsword , any word on opening up HT's (specifically Armsmen) for discussion internally Beibs?
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I disagree
Heavy tanks more so Heros and Armsmens are in a great place in all play styles.
Warriors are great - However i feel Hib and Alb have better supporting classes additionally Mid has so many other great tank/hybrid options as well to fill/fit into a group.
I 100% disagree with the suggestion that HT's specifically Hero's and Armsmen are great in "all play styles". I will and have admitted that Armsmen are proficient in small-man/8man/zerg game play but they have drastically withered away in terms of solo capability due to the increase in effectiveness of the other classes (see LT's and Sin's).
Armsmen are fantastic if paired with a Pally+whatever else is necessary (heretic AF+HP boon is very nice to stack as well).
There is also very low weapon diversity within the slash/crush polearm lines as well; this has been an issue that I've nitpicked for well over a year now.
Hero's still have the edge on Armsmen in terms of solo/small-man/group/zerg game play simply due to their Stag morph. Of course I would never request anything similar on the Arms because that is a Hero specific (and quite neat) ability.
Warriors I will continue to argue are more effective than Hero's and Armsmen in all aspects of game play. Especially in zerg warfare if the Warrior is rr5 and is able to utilize testudo.
HT's have not been touched, in any significant regard, for years (aside from the blanket anytime style nerfs that affected all melee classes). Therefore they've remained stagnant in terms of effectiveness. This wouldn't be a problem if a multitude of other classes weren't continually altered every single patch earning numerous new abilities, having abilities nerfed, tweaked, upgraded, etc.
This has put HT's in a slow but steady decline over the years (most specifically in their ability to solo). I know BS has no problem taking solo classes and trying to increase their group capability (see Vamps [pre-pet nerf] and Valewalkers).
What I would like to see for Armsmen in particular is an increase in the amount of skill points they earn due to the necessary requirement of sub-speccing a weapon type. I don't think it'd be horrendously overpowered if a 50polearm/42 shield/31(+21) MH weapon spec armsmen is able to train up to 30-34 points into parry compared to the 23 or so that is available currently.
The Polearm/2H lines also need a bit a love. Slight increases in growth styles was suggested earlier in this thread and I still agree with that suggestion. It would also be tremendously helpful if there were more weapons available in the Crush/Slash polearm lines (still find it interesting that all of the 2h/polearm cursed/frozen weapons are thrust only).
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that achilleze or w/e guy throws wep for 600 everytime on my scout its bs lol
he was 1 of the few (if not only one) non charge melees to roll my ass atleast once
(not commenting on how any heavy tanks are cuz i dunno but he was a beast ! lol)
Please feel free to sift through the conversations and/or offer opinions and ideas regarding the state of the Heavy Tanks in 2020 DAoC.
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I think the hero is in a near perfect form atm.
The only two things that I find lack luster on the hero are the loyal cloak /use2 and the R5.
Edit: although if by miracle BS agree they need change, i will have so much fun till they nerf it back.
lol
Lol its because you play in cladsic mode , Ogre rocks on news skins
This is basically the argument that ends up getting x class made more OP when in fact the real argument is maybe that Class y (friar in this example) needs to be toned down. Also this argument always needs to be considered in relation not to other classes on the realm but other classes on the other two realms. Realm balance has always been about balance between the realms, not balance inside of your realm. Each class has stuff it's better at.
Also, all 3 realms have the same issue with heavy tank. It's a situational class.
Some albs were complaining about how underpowered the sorc was. Then it was buffed significantly. So now you are complaining about how your sorc is so much more powerful than your alb tank that you want your alb tank to be more powerful?
The answer is probably that sorc needs a nerf unless you can quote any RM/Bain/BD/Chanter/Eld/SM/Ment who believes their survival rate is higher than on a tank.
Casters were not meant to be that tough if it upsets you that I’ve found that and it might mean your class getting nerfed well I think that’s good for the game don’t you.
Now to be honest this isn't a viable argument, but an honest opinion.
"Heavies great in 8" - Sure, Heavy tanks play a role in 8 man for the most part (although can easily be replaced and are not absolutely necessary). They exist to peel/snare and try and keep the soft targets protected. With Det 9 and AoM 9 they're viable. However, as is true with most classes, anything has the potential to perform well in an 8 man if the 8 man is skilled and structured to support the other classes.
"defo not lack in zerg" - To be honest, there really isn't a necessary "build" for zerg play. That's the point of zergs. It's a numbers game. However what you may be referencing is Hero's use of his tanks to overwhelm catwalks during keep takes. This is an example of how effective the Hero is in synergy with Hibernian classes and is a Niche example. Obviously the Armsmen aren't being utilized in similar zerg fashion for a number of reasons (zerg leader play/style - keep defense vs attack - Armsmen don't have the survivability that Hero's do).
"...and far from bad at solo" - I don't know how much things have changed since I last played over a year ago, but the whole reason this thread originated was the subpar performance of Armsmen in particular in solo play. Unless they've recently made some alteration I do not see how this isn't still relevant.
To clarify a point. I never once stated that Armsmen or Heavy Tanks were unplayable. That an Armsman is completely ineffective in all forms of RvR play nor could they not solo.
The point is that Armsmen in particular are behind in comparison to the warrior and hero (if given an option a warrior or hero would be chosen over an armsmen 9 times out of 10). Especially with the transitioning meta of gameplay, item alterations, survivability in general, Armsmen need a revamp to modernize the class.
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So heavies still good in 8 we kind of agreed on that one bit at least. Hero leverages tanks better in zergs then others is not the classes fault, and sorry but not much to do with only being Hib.
As for solo, still don't think they suck. They are not the best, nor should be in every given scenario. There are some classes that overperform nowdays, but that is not a valid argument to start boosting them 1 by 1 to start all over again. Heavies are perfectly where they should be, and played well they are far from underpowered, but of course have to add IMHO.
It's fair to disagree.
The state of the Hero in zerg game play is the result of a multitude of variables and strategic usage by the zerg leader and should not be a variable in determining if a class needs adjusted or not. It cannot be argued that the synergy of Hibernian classes directly benefits the Hero either (think a combination of enchanter enchantment buff with warden pbt/hots and druid/bard heals). I'm not saying this is "over powered", it's just better usage of realm synergy.
Within the heavy tank archtype, i.e. comparing the hero, armsman and warrior, the armsman is bottom of the three. There is no argument otherwise, its a fact that has existed since before this thread was made. That doesn't mean that armsmen are unplayable, it simply states that in the "overall" view of the game - their level of effectiveness has sloped downward for years.
I also stated that in terms of solo game play all of the heavy tanks have the ability to perform. They are not "solo" archtypes by design therefore will always be at somewhat of a disadvantage against hybrid toons and more "solo friendly" archtypes. However, within the archtype of heavy tanks - the armsman has the least utility and effectiveness to solo.
I've stated this before and I'll state it again. By no means am I requesting any of the 3 heavy tanks and certainly not the armsmen be revamped into an over powered class. However, there comes a time when the class needs reviewed as it is certainly subpar in today's game play.
There are fairly "simple" ways to modernize the class. It doesn't need to be given anything new, that's how classes become broken/overpowered.
I, along with others, have listed multiple "reasonable" suggestions that would allow the class to have better utility in all aspects of play while not "breaking" the armsman class.
If @Broadsword is willing to randomly alter pbaoe delve values across the board, change the warlock class, revert it, change it again, etc., then it is high time they look at the heavy tanks and Armsman class specifically and modernize the class.
Edit: Just to be clear - I don't necessarily disagree with you @Gavner. I was able to compete and play my armsman to rr12 - it was simply like playing with a 10-15% effectiveness debuff at all times though to put it into perspective.
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Just because some classes are brokenly OP doesn't mean you should break another class to put it on par with those. Adjust the certain classes that are over performing and leave heavies where they are.
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Sure, but you better be careful with what you give hero as an RR5 alternative because they're already 1st place in heavy category without it...
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Cowtastrophe - Hero__________Shrimpsticks - Infiltrator
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I've always respected you Impounded.
The only thing I'm requesting is a 'dust off' of the Armsman class in particular. A slight increase in spec points to offset the defense that is lost for sub specializing weapon type is great example of a reasonable idea.
There are ways to "modernize" a class without making it the flavor of the month.
Variables to consider for the Armsman that can be altered without breaking the class:
1. Polearm/2-h base dps/growth rate increases unique only to the Armsman (I still love you Paladins)
2. increase in specialization skill points (probably the most rationale and less likely to break the class idea)
3. Alterations to crossbow???
4. Better absorption/damage mitigation on armor (armsmen only, plate)
These aren't requests or demands. Simply suggestions of variables that could be considered to better the Armsman's current lack of utility and effectiveness.
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I can get behind these options. And wouldn't mind seeing arms get a nice adjustment. I have played all 3 and by far arms was the most lacking.
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How in the motherloving Eff is speccing slam a waste of spec points as a heavy? What should they be speccing then, 50 parry!?
I suppose for hero and armsman maybe, but if you only 8man what is an extra 15 or so points in parry going to do for you anywyays instead of having slam....
Edit: warrior can go 50weap, 42 shield, 41 parry anyways so there's no point in not getting slam for warrior