Totally agree with all of the above heavy melee has been neglected on all realms with armsman being the weakest out of all 3 I personally prefer my warrior out of all 3 for surviability and dps but arms is definetly the weakest haven’t played my hero for a long time but can’t comment
care to explain how/why armsmen is the weakest?
- they have the best rr5 (full movement, increased movement with vest proc with ability to deal damage - unlike their counterparts)
- multiple classes to reset stun immunity so they can peel/re slam/kill (theurg rr5 / cleric rr5 / ST / ST)
- best interupt classes at their side (again this is a choice if you run minstrel/theurg)
- heretic rr5 / paladin celerity+af / necro magic ablative (again this is a choice)
- best class cloak /use
This 100% it's not just about you its about the whole get in balanced groups more.
Totally agree with all of the above heavy melee has been neglected on all realms with armsman being the weakest out of all 3 I personally prefer my warrior out of all 3 for surviability and dps but arms is definetly the weakest haven’t played my hero for a long time but can’t comment
care to explain how/why armsmen is the weakest?
- they have the best rr5 (full movement, increased movement with vest proc with ability to deal damage - unlike their counterparts)
- multiple classes to reset stun immunity so they can peel/re slam/kill (theurg rr5 / cleric rr5 / ST / ST)
- best interupt classes at their side (again this is a choice if you run minstrel/theurg)
- heretic rr5 / paladin celerity+af / necro magic ablative (again this is a choice)
- best class cloak /use
This 100% it's not just about you its about the whole get in balanced groups more.
- they have the best rr5 (full movement, increased movement with vest proc with ability to deal damage - unlike their counterparts)
*rr5 is frontal only, doesn't guarantee a block/parry (although very high chance) and has a -10% penalty upon cooldown, anything to your flank will simply bypass this. The vest proc that gives movement bonus, think it procc'd for me 4 times in a year, incredibly situational lol.
- multiple classes to reset stun immunity so they can peel/re slam/kill (theurg rr5 / cleric rr5 / ST / ST)
*I've already stated that the Heavy Tanks have nearly 0 roll outside of group play.
- best interupt classes at their side (again this is a choice if you run minstrel/theurg)
*You can build synergy amongst all three heavy tanks with the class designs in all three realms.
- heretic rr5 / paladin celerity+af / necro magic ablative (again this is a choice)
*So far your examples of why Armsman aren't subpar are due to the abilities of other classes... That's kind of making my point lol.
- best class cloak /use
*Agree'd, the bladeturn ignore proc is amazing.
It's also worth mentioning that the Arms rr5 stops working when you're stunned and of course does nothing against magic damage
did i mention that savage rr5 and the class ability are nullified by engage and/or bodyguard ? yes it sucks... some stuff sucks.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
@Muylae completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but thanks. To fill you in, this is a thread about a heavy tank, compared to other heavy tanks, and we were talking about RR5s. Testudo works against all damage and while you're stunned, and the Hero RR5 helps you dodge those melee stuns (casted last a second) in the first place.
A badly played armsman is just badly played. I solo on mine fine 1vs1 i do well. Its not the class its the group make up and utilization of the class.
Ah, I never said you couldn't solo on one. What I was stating is that compared to 4 years ago it's far more difficult to solo on them as before (classes that used to be high percentile wins in melee combat became far more difficult).
Instead of trying to isolate the multitude of changes that came and went over the last 4 years, it would be far more efficient to simply tweak the heavy tanks slightly to re-balance their effectiveness and utility.
I'm all for buffing the heavy tank (arms seems most in need). But don't buff them on damage per say but buff there ability to do there job (peels and tanking (being anying enough to attack, aka Det or rups, or something)). And maybe do this in a way that helps there solo (might make battles take forever because arms keeps pealing and healing up, or tanking alot.) If it's simply upping damage we end up with a another pally or something. I love Daoc because every class plays quite differently.
This thread was titled Armsmen in 2018 because I in particular have exclusively played my armsman for the last 4+ years and the decline in effectiveness has steadily (not rapidly) decreased very slowly over the course of the last 4 years. That being said we've hit the critical lower limit of effectiveness and utility and this may be a great opportunity for BS to slightly tweak an archtype across all realms and slightly improve upon their effectiveness. That's why it's Important to note that this thread is ubiquitous to all heavy tanks.
One of the ideas that was presented, that I favor, is increasing the growth right of the polearm/2handed styles specifically for Armsmen. Maybe in regards to all the heavy tanks BS could also look into allowing the metal shield buff also apply to the tank casting it as well as the group members.
tbh, i think all the remarks raised towards armsmen could be applied to the other heavy tanks and maybe to the light tanks.
melee hybrids in general received a lot of loving and are generally much harder to kill than before and their utility and damage and survivability has gone up, depending on the class, not all tot the same degree in every aspect.
to me it seems that the 'pure melee' (arms, warrior, hero, bm, merc, zerk, savage) have become less effective over time due to the love that the melee hybrids received while there have been hardly any upgrade to the 'pure melee'.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
I don't think you could really change heavies too much without making them over the top. They already have good survivability. They already have good damage. Only thing I could imagine not breaking them would be a little help with mobility in some sort of way. Really the only classes you should truly struggle with are fight resetting Sins, Maulers and Valewalkers.
Disagree on the surviability of heavy tanks I’ve played my armsmen a long time and ive noticed a gradual decline in survival.
The reasons I believe are the game has moved on but not just the armsman but all heavy tanks have stood still.
Most debuff trains will rip a heavy tank pretty fast now.
tbh, i think all the remarks raised towards armsmen could be applied to the other heavy tanks and maybe to the light tanks.
melee hybrids in general received a lot of loving and are generally much harder to kill than before and their utility and damage and survivability has gone up, depending on the class, not all tot the same degree in every aspect.
to me it seems that the 'pure melee' (arms, warrior, hero, bm, merc, zerk, savage) have become less effective over time due to the love that the melee hybrids received while there have been hardly any upgrade to the 'pure melee'.
Savages are fine... Berserkers are fine... Mercenaries are fine... Blademasters are fine (maybe a little less utility in group than the rest, but still fine)... Heavy tanks only here c'mon
Disagree on the surviability of heavy tanks I’ve played my armsmen a long time and ive noticed a gradual decline in survival.
The reasons I believe are the game has moved on but not just the armsman but all heavy tanks have stood still.
Most debuff trains will rip a heavy tank pretty fast now.
and do you think that only applies to armsmen ? armsmen and other heavy tanks survive punishment that make light tanks melt on the spot.
Post edited by Muylae on
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Little tanks are fine (they slowly have been brought back down to earth over the last year or two after there major change). Heavy tanks just need some utility (and with broadsword trying to make every class able to solo (looking at you healing class changes) maybe it's as simple as giving them a disease proc/active)
If you think heavy tanks are squishy you really need to update your template/spec/ra's. They are strong, only thing they really lack is mobility.
Light tanks are perfectly fine.. They're meant to be squishier than a heavy tank and meant to be played differently. They're strong in group and they're strong solo. They do NOT need to be buffed.
Little tanks are fine (they slowly have been brought back down to earth over the last year or two after there major change). Heavy tanks just need some utility (and with broadsword trying to make every class able to solo (looking at you healing class changes) maybe it's as simple as giving them a disease proc/active)
every class can solo ? cough, healers, cough.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
This thread has seriously gone off the rails, and it's funny (but not surprising) to see Knights being the least constructive, so I'll try to straighten it up, for the benefit of my buddy @Amp_Phetamine :
Balancing heavy tanks is difficult, because they're played in all playstyles and their effectiveness ranges widely.
Heavy tanks are still pretty caster resistant in zergs/8 mans, but they're not particularly resistant against spell damage in soloing, for example. Fury lasts only a short-time and doesn't help against sustained magic damage - you don't get hit with "debuff trains" in solo/small man very often.
In addition, they're not particularly "tanky" against melee damage, because they don't generally have more AF/ABS than many hybrids (even Armsman wears the same armor as a hybrid with AF buffs an Armsman doesn't have), and heavy tank hits are only slightly higher.
They don't have REALLY access to more defense per-se (aside from being on a higher weaponskill and having more points to spend, as a virtue of having fewer lines), as many classes can spec Shield and Parry and have equal or greater Evade. Blocking is reduced by dual-wielding, leaving you with the same Parry that lots of other classes can obtain, and while heavy tanks are somewhat debuff resistant, they still can be debuffed pretty often (which reduces their damage and defense). Being a melee-only toon also makes it EXTREMELY easy to debuff/reduce your damage, which is why assassins can eat heavy tanks up.
Aside from having higher weaponskill (and thus innately higher melee damage), they have some of the blandest style lines and no interesting style effects or weapons.
Lastly, they still remain extremely vulnerable to kiting (free Snapshot wouldn't be a bad thing).
"Fixing" heavy tanks is really addressing one or more of the issues above and can probably only be accomplished by addressing almost all of them.
Ideally, heavies should have some cool(er) styles, better heavy-tank only weapons, and some kind of Plate equivalent on Mid/Hib, and they should be able to combat kiting a lot better.
This thread has seriously gone off the rails, and it's funny (but not surprising) to see Knights being the least constructive, so I'll try to straighten it up, for the benefit of my buddy @Amp_Phetamine :
Balancing heavy tanks is difficult, because they're played in all playstyles and their effectiveness ranges widely.
Heavy tanks are still pretty caster resistant in zergs/8 mans, but they're not particularly resistant against spell damage in soloing, for example. Fury lasts only a short-time and doesn't help against sustained magic damage - you don't get hit with "debuff trains" in solo/small man very often.
In addition, they're not particularly "tanky" against melee damage, because they don't generally have more AF/ABS than many hybrids (even Armsman wears the same armor as a hybrid with AF buffs an Armsman doesn't have), and heavy tank hits are only slightly higher.
They don't have REALLY access to more defense per-se (aside from being on a higher weaponskill and having more points to spend, as a virtue of having fewer lines), as many classes can spec Shield and Parry and have equal or greater Evade. Blocking is reduced by dual-wielding, leaving you with the same Parry that lots of other classes can obtain, and while heavy tanks are somewhat debuff resistant, they still can be debuffed pretty often (which reduces their damage and defense). Being a melee-only toon also makes it EXTREMELY easy to debuff/reduce your damage, which is why assassins can eat heavy tanks up.
Aside from having higher weaponskill (and thus innately higher melee damage), they have some of the blandest style lines and no interesting style effects or weapons.
Lastly, they still remain extremely vulnerable to kiting (free Snapshot wouldn't be a bad thing).
"Fixing" heavy tanks is really addressing one or more of the issues above and can probably only be accomplished by addressing almost all of them.
Ideally, heavies should have some cool(er) styles, better heavy-tank only weapons, and some kind of Plate equivalent on Mid/Hib, and they should be able to combat kiting a lot better.
Thank you Enk for dropping the knowledge bomb and re-directing the thread. Very insightful Much appreciated /hugs.
Its not that the class is bad or sucks. Its that a lot of the heavy tanks are boring if played in huge zerg fights where they dont have much to do if the rest of the zerg is mostly made up of casters. Look at the hib eu bg for example, tons of Heroes running around smashing face and taking names, where the mid eu bg is mostly casters with few heavy tanks. These heavy tanks just get smashed in the mid bg due to low pop other heavies to protect them.
This thread has seriously gone off the rails, and it's funny (but not surprising) to see Knights being the least constructive, so I'll try to straighten it up, for the benefit of my buddy @Amp_Phetamine :
Balancing heavy tanks is difficult, because they're played in all playstyles and their effectiveness ranges widely.
Heavy tanks are still pretty caster resistant in zergs/8 mans, but they're not particularly resistant against spell damage in soloing, for example. Fury lasts only a short-time and doesn't help against sustained magic damage - you don't get hit with "debuff trains" in solo/small man very often.
In addition, they're not particularly "tanky" against melee damage, because they don't generally have more AF/ABS than many hybrids (even Armsman wears the same armor as a hybrid with AF buffs an Armsman doesn't have), and heavy tank hits are only slightly higher.
They don't have REALLY access to more defense per-se (aside from being on a higher weaponskill and having more points to spend, as a virtue of having fewer lines), as many classes can spec Shield and Parry and have equal or greater Evade. Blocking is reduced by dual-wielding, leaving you with the same Parry that lots of other classes can obtain, and while heavy tanks are somewhat debuff resistant, they still can be debuffed pretty often (which reduces their damage and defense). Being a melee-only toon also makes it EXTREMELY easy to debuff/reduce your damage, which is why assassins can eat heavy tanks up.
Aside from having higher weaponskill (and thus innately higher melee damage), they have some of the blandest style lines and no interesting style effects or weapons.
Lastly, they still remain extremely vulnerable to kiting (free Snapshot wouldn't be a bad thing).
"Fixing" heavy tanks is really addressing one or more of the issues above and can probably only be accomplished by addressing almost all of them.
Ideally, heavies should have some cool(er) styles, better heavy-tank only weapons, and some kind of Plate equivalent on Mid/Hib, and they should be able to combat kiting a lot better.
I'm pretty sure this thread has been reviewed by BS staff; I would like to mention @John_Broadsword and @Carol_Broadsword specifically to this post.
This post that Enk submitted sums up exactly what the issue's are with Heavy Tanks.
Better combat styles - I would be 100% for this. Heavies only capability is within melee combat. As we have virtually no way of escaping/resetting fights I would like to see Heavy tanks re-obtain their capability to overwhelm enemies within sustained melee combat. Better Heavy Tank only weapons - PLEASE for the love of all that is Holy please consider this. I've been complaining about limited weapon options (specifically within the Polearm line (see crush/slash)) for at least 1.5-2 years now. Some kind of plate equivalent on Mid/Hib - I would not be against this but considering all other avenues of possible tweaks that I'd like to see implemented for all of the Heavies it would be imperative not to keep the Armsman at the bottom of the rung. Currently in terms of heavy tanks Warrior>>Hero>Arms. Should be able to combat kiting a lot better - Although I would like more options to manage kiting. This is the innate disadvantage to heavies. I wouldn't mind keeping our inability to kite IF Broadsword can increase our capabilities within melee combat (IE increase our growth rates, over all combat style dps(better/unique styles to heavy tanks would be a boon in this regard) and/or decrease penalties to our defenses, etc.)
I think heavies should have a extremely high gr or proc on a level 50’style honestly. Maybe disease proc or a decent dd proc. They’re supposed to be all about heavy dmg and damage mitigation but most classes can do both better with the current gear.
Utility price like disease and str/con debuffs can be attached to reactionaries. Maybe give an anytime with a disease proc? Would help with kiting and all the heal price nowadays
I think heavies should have a extremely high gr or proc on a level 50’style honestly. Maybe disease proc or a decent dd proc. They’re supposed to be all about heavy dmg and damage mitigation but most classes can do both better with the current gear.
Utility price like disease and str/con debuffs can be attached to reactionaries. Maybe give an anytime with a disease proc? Would help with kiting and all the heal price nowadays
Back when style procs were first introduced I thought it was interesting that Heavies weren't considered as well. I would be perfectly fine with my current ability to kite (which hasn't changed in years) and/or deal with kiters; however, what needs to be re-evaluated (as you and many others have stated) is our inability to manage melee combat anymore.
The reason heavy tanks SHOULD be dominant in melee combat is because we CAN'T charge away/reset fights.
But you're 100% right @BurkleyRIP . Many classes can relatively easily manage our dps output (especially if we're forced into S/S) and have multiple methods to both reduce our defensive capabilities as well as mitigate our AF/Abs.
I would very much so be interested in enhancing Large Weaponry, Polearm, Celtic Spear, Two-Handed (Armsman only), and Midgards Axe/Sword/Hammer (Warrior only) style lines as well as unique changes to the 1h weapon lines for Alb and Hib as well (especially for Alb as we absolutely require sub-spec to maximize our 2h capability).
Considering, at least for Arms, that both 2h and Pole level 50 style's are follow ups a unique proc should be considerable as well.
The growth rates for Heavies definitely need to be vastly increased and re-evaluated as well.
@Amp_Phetamine
Sorry mate, let us have a very minor disagreement here.
I played some warrior recently, and years with Hero. The thing we can agree is on, that in soloing perspective Tanks became a bit less powerful then before.
As said, I mostly blame the changed environment for that. Archers became more powerful, even better at kiting, Assassins become very common, most of soloers are stealthers today. Sins debuffs are amazing, and DW shield bonus hurts tanks too, in fact, if we see best soloers today, vast majority of them are in fact DW classes.
This kind of made tanks get a little behind, however I still think they are far from worst soloers, think we can agree on that too. They just not favored, and far from being OP.
I only have issue with asking for more DPS. In 8v8, zerg, tanks are today... Well, still alot tanky! New items helped their to mitigate too, can take ALOT of damage, see the Hero vs Anna BG fights, tanks eat up TONS of damage. Hybrids mostly eat up melee dmg at best, but nothing beats magic dmg mitigation of Heavy Tanks.
Thats why asking for DPS/more GR is kind of odd to me. Heavy tanks far from being bad at melee, they have better melee dps then hybrids, but not as good as light tanks. With that kind of dmg mitigations, heavy tanks should not have Light Tanks DPS. Like Light Tanks should not have Heavy Tank dmg mitigation either.
Being able to be kited was the flaw of heavies since the early years, just like my heros from 10 years ago. I am not sure Broadsword want to change something that old mechanic, however if they would, I would for sure ask for that instead of more melee dmg.
There should be at least some cost for the higher mitigation, and better then average melee dmg, don't forget, hybrids not just get less STR, they have worse dmg bonus either.
I still think the main goal IF we want to buff heavies, that do not make them over the top mitigation/dmg wise. Better styles is a thing, but straight up increasing dps, well, i dont know.
Thats why I proposed the followings based on what people think:
- Shield Throw ability, 10s cooldown, cant block while shield thrown. (if we want to help kiting and dont care about past)
- Making Rampage resist poisons too, or have Memories of War halve the effectiveness of poisons vs Heavies (this would help them to excel at something at solo scene, not effecting other areas)
I don't currently play my Hero, but I would ask for smth similar, to pick up a fight against currently dominating soloers, I am just against blindly tossing out more dmg on a class to solve a problem, that's far from having bad DPS.
Edit, Having better styles, items, may help Arms tho, I just not agree on straight up GR increase.
BTW, by better styles, I mean they far from having bad GR, in fact, styles are very nice, maybe pole side second could stunn also, or increase GR of the parry reactionaries only, maybe even have AF/low abs debuff from parry like light tanks, or assassins. Other styles are pretty good on GR, and effects. Those things for sure wouldn't break any balance, but a small bonus for solo.
@Amp_Phetamine
Sorry mate, let us have a very minor disagreement here.
I played some warrior recently, and years with Hero. The thing we can agree is on, that in soloing perspective Tanks became a bit less powerful then before.
As said, I mostly blame the changed environment for that. Archers became more powerful, even better at kiting, Assassins become very common, most of soloers are stealthers today. Sins debuffs are amazing, and DW shield bonus hurts tanks too, in fact, if we see best soloers today, vast majority of them are in fact DW classes.
This kind of made tanks get a little behind, however I still think they are far from worst soloers, think we can agree on that too. They just not favored, and far from being OP.
I only have issue with asking for more DPS. In 8v8, zerg, tanks are today... Well, still alot tanky! New items helped their to mitigate too, can take ALOT of damage, see the Hero vs Anna BG fights, tanks eat up TONS of damage. Hybrids mostly eat up melee dmg at best, but nothing beats magic dmg mitigation of Heavy Tanks.
Thats why asking for DPS/more GR is kind of odd to me. Heavy tanks far from being bad at melee, they have better melee dps then hybrids, but not as good as light tanks. With that kind of dmg mitigations, heavy tanks should not have Light Tanks DPS. Like Light Tanks should not have Heavy Tank dmg mitigation either.
Being able to be kited was the flaw of heavies since the early years, just like my heros from 10 years ago. I am not sure Broadsword want to change something that old mechanic, however if they would, I would for sure ask for that instead of more melee dmg.
There should be at least some cost for the higher mitigation, and better then average melee dmg, don't forget, hybrids not just get less STR, they have worse dmg bonus either.
I still think the main goal IF we want to buff heavies, that do not make them over the top mitigation/dmg wise. Better styles is a thing, but straight up increasing dps, well, i dont know.
Thats why I proposed the followings based on what people think:
- Shield Throw ability, 10s cooldown, cant block while shield thrown. (if we want to help kiting and dont care about past)
- Making Rampage resist poisons too, or have Memories of War halve the effectiveness of poisons vs Heavies (this would help them to excel at something at solo scene, not effecting other areas)
I don't currently play my Hero, but I would ask for smth similar, to pick up a fight against currently dominating soloers, I am just against blindly tossing out more dmg on a class to solve a problem, that's far from having bad DPS.
Edit, Having better styles, items, may help Arms tho, I just not agree on straight up GR increase.
I agree, I don't want blind changes and/or over the top buffs either, nor would I want to see the Heavy tanks overpowered because that means at some point they'll be nerfed and could end up in a worse position (hypothetically).
What I would like to see however is better growth rates on Polearm and 2-handed styles (simply due to our requirement of double speccing) but make it unique to only Armsmen and later down the line some unique styles for all heavy tanks.
Memories of War reducing poison effectiveness by half is a very intriguing idea that I hadn't considered previously, that would certainly aid in allowing heavies to deal with assassins/debuffs.
I don't think that heavy tanks need much of anything due to like amp has said risk of becoming oped than over nerfed.
Only thing I can think of that doesn't change there damage or enemies ability to kite, would be to give heavy a larger area which they can block parry making strafing to get to side not completely ignore our defense.
Also amp I see you mention the need to double spec alot, do remember to use 1h/lw or cs heros also is giving up parry in this day and age going the old route of 50 cs/lw 42-45 shield and rest parry doesn't work due to need to s/s
One of the biggest problems in this game that too many things have been added making it almost impossible for a new person to even attempt trying it. The “must have” gear needed for RVR through PVE turned folks into quitting and would turn away peeps from coming back that didn’t like TOA way back then. Game actually needs to be simplified in some fashion but I think that’s too far past.
One of the biggest problems in this game that too many things have been added making it almost impossible for a new person to even attempt trying it. The “must have” gear needed for RVR through PVE turned folks into quitting and would turn away peeps from coming back that didn’t like TOA way back then. Game actually needs to be simplified in some fashion but I think that’s too far past.
Agree, but what we're suggesting wouldn't be adding anything new. Simply tweaking growth rates and Heavy capabilities slightly for the current era of DAoC we're in.
I personally think that giving them any kind of ranged snare ect will affect balance to much, if you get caught in open field without things to break Los your supposed to lose unless they make a mistake. I believe that's the trade off for being a heavy. I currently play nature druid and if I catch a tank open field and play right I win 100% of time they have somewhere to break Los I have to choose if I wanna risk playing to there strengths in close combat and my chance of winning are closer to 0 to me that's balance. I do believe they need love when it comes to what they are good at melee or defense. allowing for them to block parry from side arcs I believe would be best bet and since they have code for classes to have 360 degree evade, savage and rangers timered ability I don't believe it ( I have no experience in coding so of course I could be wrong) it would take much resources and would make most happy that they are no longer able to be shredded by a good strafer as if they had no defense at all.
I personally think that giving them any kind of ranged snare ect will affect balance to much, if you get caught in open field without things to break Los your supposed to lose unless they make a mistake. I believe that's the trade off for being a heavy. I currently play nature druid and if I catch a tank open field and play right I win 100% of time they have somewhere to break Los I have to choose if I wanna risk playing to there strengths in close combat and my chance of winning are closer to 0 to me that's balance. I do believe they need love when it comes to what they are good at melee or defense. allowing for them to block parry from side arcs I believe would be best bet and since they have code for classes to have 360 degree evade, savage and rangers timered ability I don't believe it ( I have no experience in coding so of course I could be wrong) it would take much resources and would make most happy that they are no longer able to be shredded by a good strafer as if they had no defense at all.
I completely agree. I've sent in a lot of these post's directly to BS/Beibs as there are a lot of good ideas that would benefit all heavy tanks. I also stated that I don't want anything new to enhance our ability to deal with range/kiters. As much as I would love it, it'd be too overpowered. The heavy tanks innate penalty is dealing with ranged attackers, this needs to stay as is. What needs altered is our ability to manage melee combat and inability to defend.
I know a few are against increased GR; however, I will continue to push for this for all heavy tanks as well as better abs/af and defense. I've also requested an alteration to the arms rr5. 50% increase to block/parry is nice but as faatkid stated it's useless against anyone hitting your back/strafe-dancing. The 10% penalty needs to be removed.
This class is incredibly difficult to play circa the resent patches. It's nearly impossible to solo on and can really only be utilized in group/zerg gameplay as a peeler/weak dps dealer.
Just gotta put it out there - the Armsman class isn't for you if this is how you think/feel.
This class is incredibly difficult to play circa the resent patches. It's nearly impossible to solo on and can really only be utilized in group/zerg gameplay as a peeler/weak dps dealer.
Just gotta put it out there - the Armsman class isn't for you if this is how you think/feel.
I was drunk, leave me alone. I elaborated further throughout the thread.
This class is incredibly difficult to play circa the resent patches. It's nearly impossible to solo on and can really only be utilized in group/zerg gameplay as a peeler/weak dps dealer.
Just gotta put it out there - the Armsman class isn't for you if this is how you think/feel.
I was drunk, leave me alone. I elaborated further throughout the thread.
I mean 98/100 times I am grouped with an Armsman, so them getting love is totally fine with me. Honestly, make them OP for all I care. But if this is all an elaborate rouse for getting them free Snapshot, I am still puzzled. Your case should be much more straight forward-
Warrior: Shield Snares, Battle Control
Hero: Tactics
Armsman: ?
This class is incredibly difficult to play circa the resent patches. It's nearly impossible to solo on and can really only be utilized in group/zerg gameplay as a peeler/weak dps dealer.
Just gotta put it out there - the Armsman class isn't for you if this is how you think/feel.
I was drunk, leave me alone. I elaborated further throughout the thread.
I mean 98/100 times I am grouped with an Armsman, so them getting love is totally fine with me. Honestly, make them OP for all I care. But if this is all an elaborate rouse for getting them free Snapshot, I am still puzzled. Your case should be much more straight forward-
Warrior: Shield Snares, Battle Control
Hero: Tactics
Armsman: ?
That's why we need people like you in this thread as well @Novoal7, multiple perspectives to help condense the topics that are being addressed and who can formulate sound arguments.
I still think Arms would need something similar nice ability maybe as Hero/Warrior (although Warriors are kind of useless 99.9% of times, warriors are fine too). Check Growth Rates, they already very nice, they deal more dmg then hybrids by a mile, and Growth Rates itself aint worse then light tanks, please don't get better growth rates then light tanks.
When asking for straight up DMG boost, I think being able to solo less efficiently these days is just a reason for asking more dps in Grps. There are great suggestions here that would help them pick up the pace, and Heavies being good/solid soloers is somewhat reasonable.
By the way, while some cloth wearer do really have more melee absorbs, they have alot less HP, and most of times, very vulnerable to Magic DMG. Nothing soaks up damage in zergs like a Heavy still.
If I were to play my Hero/Warrior today, I honestly would ask for something to do with Poisons like I've mentioned. Kiting I rarely had issue with, most of players **** up, I get close by using throw weapons just the right times, and they dead. Hard counter only exist if someone really is very good player in Kiting game, I even soloed multiple archers at once time to time, if they play bad.
I still think Arms would need something similar nice ability maybe as Hero/Warrior (although Warriors are kind of useless 99.9% of times, warriors are fine too). Check Growth Rates, they already very nice, they deal more dmg then hybrids by a mile, and Growth Rates itself aint worse then light tanks, please don't get better growth rates then light tanks.
When asking for straight up DMG boost, I think being able to solo less efficiently these days is just a reason for asking more dps in Grps. There are great suggestions here that would help them pick up the pace, and Heavies being good/solid soloers is somewhat reasonable.
By the way, while some cloth wearer do really have more melee absorbs, they have alot less HP, and most of times, very vulnerable to Magic DMG. Nothing soaks up damage in zergs like a Heavy still.
If I were to play my Hero/Warrior today, I honestly would ask for something to do with Poisons like I've mentioned. Kiting I rarely had issue with, most of players **** up, I get close by using throw weapons just the right times, and they dead. Hard counter only exist if someone really is very good player in Kiting game, I even soloed multiple archers at once time to time, if they play bad.
heavy tanks sure are far superior at dealing with ranged damage than light tanks ... on a light tank, two spaced up archers are going to kill you for sure. a heavy tank can get away with that.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Well true novoal, how much different are hero/arms in terms of how they are specced. Hero's and arms both have to double spec or they can't use both s/s and 2h. If i had to guess my rr11 hero is similar specced to amps arms 50 cs/45 shield/30-34 slash/crush/thrust rest parry.
Just to reiterate this thread is for the benefit of all three heavy tanks; it's focused however on Armsmen as they are the worse of the three.
There has been a lot of really well thought out posts here, of which I have PM'd to @Carol_Broadsword
@Boduke you are correct. Hero's should also sub spec as well; however, unlike armsmen it isn't absolutely required. Plus you have the ability to swap between crush/slash (if LW).
Hero's and Armsmen are definitely closer to each other in terms of character design (minus stag morph, tactics and plate armor).
Their isn't really any counterargument to the contrary. Armsmen most certainly need tweaked and brought back up to par. The only saving grace is our polearm dps which is mitigated via debuffs (see assassins) and defense. So we have the capability to pump out decent DPS but it's very situational and really only relevant if you're not debuffed to hell
Just to reiterate this thread is for the benefit of all three heavy tanks; it's focused however on Armsmen as they are the worse of the three.
There has been a lot of really well thought out posts here, of which I have PM'd to @Carol_Broadsword
@Boduke you are correct. Hero's should also sub spec as well; however, unlike armsmen it isn't absolutely required. Plus you have the ability to swap between crush/slash (if LW).
Hero's and Armsmen are definitely closer to each other in terms of character design (minus stag morph, tactics and plate armor).
Their isn't really any counterargument to the contrary. Armsmen most certainly need tweaked and brought back up to par. The only saving grace is our polearm dps which is mitigated via debuffs (see assassins) and defense. So we have the capability to pump out decent DPS but it's very situational and really only relevant if you're not debuffed to hell
how is this an armsen issue and not a:n issue for ALL melee ? i could WHINE about the exact same on my savage.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Comments
This 100% it's not just about you its about the whole get in balanced groups more.
- they have the best rr5 (full movement, increased movement with vest proc with ability to deal damage - unlike their counterparts)
*rr5 is frontal only, doesn't guarantee a block/parry (although very high chance) and has a -10% penalty upon cooldown, anything to your flank will simply bypass this. The vest proc that gives movement bonus, think it procc'd for me 4 times in a year, incredibly situational lol.
- multiple classes to reset stun immunity so they can peel/re slam/kill (theurg rr5 / cleric rr5 / ST / ST)
*I've already stated that the Heavy Tanks have nearly 0 roll outside of group play.
- best interupt classes at their side (again this is a choice if you run minstrel/theurg)
*You can build synergy amongst all three heavy tanks with the class designs in all three realms.
- heretic rr5 / paladin celerity+af / necro magic ablative (again this is a choice)
*So far your examples of why Armsman aren't subpar are due to the abilities of other classes... That's kind of making my point lol.
- best class cloak /use
*Agree'd, the bladeturn ignore proc is amazing.
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It's also worth mentioning that the Arms rr5 stops working when you're stunned and of course does nothing against magic damage
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Yup, all true.
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did i mention that savage rr5 and the class ability are nullified by engage and/or bodyguard ? yes it sucks... some stuff sucks.
Hope that helps.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Ah, I never said you couldn't solo on one. What I was stating is that compared to 4 years ago it's far more difficult to solo on them as before (classes that used to be high percentile wins in melee combat became far more difficult).
Instead of trying to isolate the multitude of changes that came and went over the last 4 years, it would be far more efficient to simply tweak the heavy tanks slightly to re-balance their effectiveness and utility.
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This thread was titled Armsmen in 2018 because I in particular have exclusively played my armsman for the last 4+ years and the decline in effectiveness has steadily (not rapidly) decreased very slowly over the course of the last 4 years. That being said we've hit the critical lower limit of effectiveness and utility and this may be a great opportunity for BS to slightly tweak an archtype across all realms and slightly improve upon their effectiveness. That's why it's Important to note that this thread is ubiquitous to all heavy tanks.
One of the ideas that was presented, that I favor, is increasing the growth right of the polearm/2handed styles specifically for Armsmen. Maybe in regards to all the heavy tanks BS could also look into allowing the metal shield buff also apply to the tank casting it as well as the group members.
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melee hybrids in general received a lot of loving and are generally much harder to kill than before and their utility and damage and survivability has gone up, depending on the class, not all tot the same degree in every aspect.
to me it seems that the 'pure melee' (arms, warrior, hero, bm, merc, zerk, savage) have become less effective over time due to the love that the melee hybrids received while there have been hardly any upgrade to the 'pure melee'.
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The reasons I believe are the game has moved on but not just the armsman but all heavy tanks have stood still.
Most debuff trains will rip a heavy tank pretty fast now.
Savages are fine... Berserkers are fine... Mercenaries are fine... Blademasters are fine (maybe a little less utility in group than the rest, but still fine)... Heavy tanks only here c'mon
and do you think that only applies to armsmen ? armsmen and other heavy tanks survive punishment that make light tanks melt on the spot.
Light tanks are perfectly fine.. They're meant to be squishier than a heavy tank and meant to be played differently. They're strong in group and they're strong solo. They do NOT need to be buffed.
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Cowtastrophe - Hero__________Shrimpsticks - Infiltrator
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every class can solo ? cough, healers, cough.
Balancing heavy tanks is difficult, because they're played in all playstyles and their effectiveness ranges widely.
Heavy tanks are still pretty caster resistant in zergs/8 mans, but they're not particularly resistant against spell damage in soloing, for example. Fury lasts only a short-time and doesn't help against sustained magic damage - you don't get hit with "debuff trains" in solo/small man very often.
In addition, they're not particularly "tanky" against melee damage, because they don't generally have more AF/ABS than many hybrids (even Armsman wears the same armor as a hybrid with AF buffs an Armsman doesn't have), and heavy tank hits are only slightly higher.
They don't have REALLY access to more defense per-se (aside from being on a higher weaponskill and having more points to spend, as a virtue of having fewer lines), as many classes can spec Shield and Parry and have equal or greater Evade. Blocking is reduced by dual-wielding, leaving you with the same Parry that lots of other classes can obtain, and while heavy tanks are somewhat debuff resistant, they still can be debuffed pretty often (which reduces their damage and defense). Being a melee-only toon also makes it EXTREMELY easy to debuff/reduce your damage, which is why assassins can eat heavy tanks up.
Aside from having higher weaponskill (and thus innately higher melee damage), they have some of the blandest style lines and no interesting style effects or weapons.
Lastly, they still remain extremely vulnerable to kiting (free Snapshot wouldn't be a bad thing).
"Fixing" heavy tanks is really addressing one or more of the issues above and can probably only be accomplished by addressing almost all of them.
Ideally, heavies should have some cool(er) styles, better heavy-tank only weapons, and some kind of Plate equivalent on Mid/Hib, and they should be able to combat kiting a lot better.
Thank you Enk for dropping the knowledge bomb and re-directing the thread. Very insightful Much appreciated /hugs.
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at least thats what ive noticed.
Correct me if im wrong.
I'm pretty sure this thread has been reviewed by BS staff; I would like to mention @John_Broadsword and @Carol_Broadsword specifically to this post.
This post that Enk submitted sums up exactly what the issue's are with Heavy Tanks.
Better combat styles - I would be 100% for this. Heavies only capability is within melee combat. As we have virtually no way of escaping/resetting fights I would like to see Heavy tanks re-obtain their capability to overwhelm enemies within sustained melee combat.
Better Heavy Tank only weapons - PLEASE for the love of all that is Holy please consider this. I've been complaining about limited weapon options (specifically within the Polearm line (see crush/slash)) for at least 1.5-2 years now.
Some kind of plate equivalent on Mid/Hib - I would not be against this but considering all other avenues of possible tweaks that I'd like to see implemented for all of the Heavies it would be imperative not to keep the Armsman at the bottom of the rung. Currently in terms of heavy tanks Warrior>>Hero>Arms.
Should be able to combat kiting a lot better - Although I would like more options to manage kiting. This is the innate disadvantage to heavies. I wouldn't mind keeping our inability to kite IF Broadsword can increase our capabilities within melee combat (IE increase our growth rates, over all combat style dps(better/unique styles to heavy tanks would be a boon in this regard) and/or decrease penalties to our defenses, etc.)
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Utility price like disease and str/con debuffs can be attached to reactionaries. Maybe give an anytime with a disease proc? Would help with kiting and all the heal price nowadays
Back when style procs were first introduced I thought it was interesting that Heavies weren't considered as well. I would be perfectly fine with my current ability to kite (which hasn't changed in years) and/or deal with kiters; however, what needs to be re-evaluated (as you and many others have stated) is our inability to manage melee combat anymore.
The reason heavy tanks SHOULD be dominant in melee combat is because we CAN'T charge away/reset fights.
But you're 100% right @BurkleyRIP . Many classes can relatively easily manage our dps output (especially if we're forced into S/S) and have multiple methods to both reduce our defensive capabilities as well as mitigate our AF/Abs.
I would very much so be interested in enhancing Large Weaponry, Polearm, Celtic Spear, Two-Handed (Armsman only), and Midgards Axe/Sword/Hammer (Warrior only) style lines as well as unique changes to the 1h weapon lines for Alb and Hib as well (especially for Alb as we absolutely require sub-spec to maximize our 2h capability).
Considering, at least for Arms, that both 2h and Pole level 50 style's are follow ups a unique proc should be considerable as well.
The growth rates for Heavies definitely need to be vastly increased and re-evaluated as well.
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Sorry mate, let us have a very minor disagreement here.
I played some warrior recently, and years with Hero. The thing we can agree is on, that in soloing perspective Tanks became a bit less powerful then before.
As said, I mostly blame the changed environment for that. Archers became more powerful, even better at kiting, Assassins become very common, most of soloers are stealthers today. Sins debuffs are amazing, and DW shield bonus hurts tanks too, in fact, if we see best soloers today, vast majority of them are in fact DW classes.
This kind of made tanks get a little behind, however I still think they are far from worst soloers, think we can agree on that too. They just not favored, and far from being OP.
I only have issue with asking for more DPS. In 8v8, zerg, tanks are today... Well, still alot tanky! New items helped their to mitigate too, can take ALOT of damage, see the Hero vs Anna BG fights, tanks eat up TONS of damage. Hybrids mostly eat up melee dmg at best, but nothing beats magic dmg mitigation of Heavy Tanks.
Thats why asking for DPS/more GR is kind of odd to me. Heavy tanks far from being bad at melee, they have better melee dps then hybrids, but not as good as light tanks. With that kind of dmg mitigations, heavy tanks should not have Light Tanks DPS. Like Light Tanks should not have Heavy Tank dmg mitigation either.
Being able to be kited was the flaw of heavies since the early years, just like my heros from 10 years ago. I am not sure Broadsword want to change something that old mechanic, however if they would, I would for sure ask for that instead of more melee dmg.
There should be at least some cost for the higher mitigation, and better then average melee dmg, don't forget, hybrids not just get less STR, they have worse dmg bonus either.
I still think the main goal IF we want to buff heavies, that do not make them over the top mitigation/dmg wise. Better styles is a thing, but straight up increasing dps, well, i dont know.
Thats why I proposed the followings based on what people think:
- Shield Throw ability, 10s cooldown, cant block while shield thrown. (if we want to help kiting and dont care about past)
- Making Rampage resist poisons too, or have Memories of War halve the effectiveness of poisons vs Heavies (this would help them to excel at something at solo scene, not effecting other areas)
I don't currently play my Hero, but I would ask for smth similar, to pick up a fight against currently dominating soloers, I am just against blindly tossing out more dmg on a class to solve a problem, that's far from having bad DPS.
Edit, Having better styles, items, may help Arms tho, I just not agree on straight up GR increase.
I agree, I don't want blind changes and/or over the top buffs either, nor would I want to see the Heavy tanks overpowered because that means at some point they'll be nerfed and could end up in a worse position (hypothetically).
What I would like to see however is better growth rates on Polearm and 2-handed styles (simply due to our requirement of double speccing) but make it unique to only Armsmen and later down the line some unique styles for all heavy tanks.
Memories of War reducing poison effectiveness by half is a very intriguing idea that I hadn't considered previously, that would certainly aid in allowing heavies to deal with assassins/debuffs.
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Only thing I can think of that doesn't change there damage or enemies ability to kite, would be to give heavy a larger area which they can block parry making strafing to get to side not completely ignore our defense.
Also amp I see you mention the need to double spec alot, do remember to use 1h/lw or cs heros also is giving up parry in this day and age going the old route of 50 cs/lw 42-45 shield and rest parry doesn't work due to need to s/s
Thegenerallee-shadowblade
Misleadinglooks-warrior
Grumblejr-hero
Danceswithdebuffs-champion
Faatkid-druid
Agree, but what we're suggesting wouldn't be adding anything new. Simply tweaking growth rates and Heavy capabilities slightly for the current era of DAoC we're in.
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ranged classes like scout and even **** ice wiz can kite and never be touched, it is kinda boring to be 1 vs anyone good
Thegenerallee-shadowblade
Misleadinglooks-warrior
Grumblejr-hero
Danceswithdebuffs-champion
Faatkid-druid
I completely agree. I've sent in a lot of these post's directly to BS/Beibs as there are a lot of good ideas that would benefit all heavy tanks. I also stated that I don't want anything new to enhance our ability to deal with range/kiters. As much as I would love it, it'd be too overpowered. The heavy tanks innate penalty is dealing with ranged attackers, this needs to stay as is. What needs altered is our ability to manage melee combat and inability to defend.
I know a few are against increased GR; however, I will continue to push for this for all heavy tanks as well as better abs/af and defense. I've also requested an alteration to the arms rr5. 50% increase to block/parry is nice but as faatkid stated it's useless against anyone hitting your back/strafe-dancing. The 10% penalty needs to be removed.
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Just gotta put it out there - the Armsman class isn't for you if this is how you think/feel.
I was drunk, leave me alone. I elaborated further throughout the thread.
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I mean 98/100 times I am grouped with an Armsman, so them getting love is totally fine with me. Honestly, make them OP for all I care. But if this is all an elaborate rouse for getting them free Snapshot, I am still puzzled. Your case should be much more straight forward-
Warrior: Shield Snares, Battle Control
Hero: Tactics
Armsman: ?
That's why we need people like you in this thread as well @Novoal7, multiple perspectives to help condense the topics that are being addressed and who can formulate sound arguments.
Thank you for that example as well.
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When asking for straight up DMG boost, I think being able to solo less efficiently these days is just a reason for asking more dps in Grps. There are great suggestions here that would help them pick up the pace, and Heavies being good/solid soloers is somewhat reasonable.
By the way, while some cloth wearer do really have more melee absorbs, they have alot less HP, and most of times, very vulnerable to Magic DMG. Nothing soaks up damage in zergs like a Heavy still.
If I were to play my Hero/Warrior today, I honestly would ask for something to do with Poisons like I've mentioned. Kiting I rarely had issue with, most of players **** up, I get close by using throw weapons just the right times, and they dead. Hard counter only exist if someone really is very good player in Kiting game, I even soloed multiple archers at once time to time, if they play bad.
heavy tanks sure are far superior at dealing with ranged damage than light tanks ... on a light tank, two spaced up archers are going to kill you for sure. a heavy tank can get away with that.
Heroes can freely swap between their Large Weapon damage types.
Warriors don't have to train two handed damage.
Thegenerallee-shadowblade
Misleadinglooks-warrior
Grumblejr-hero
Danceswithdebuffs-champion
Faatkid-druid
Just to reiterate this thread is for the benefit of all three heavy tanks; it's focused however on Armsmen as they are the worse of the three.
There has been a lot of really well thought out posts here, of which I have PM'd to @Carol_Broadsword
@Boduke you are correct. Hero's should also sub spec as well; however, unlike armsmen it isn't absolutely required. Plus you have the ability to swap between crush/slash (if LW).
Hero's and Armsmen are definitely closer to each other in terms of character design (minus stag morph, tactics and plate armor).
Their isn't really any counterargument to the contrary. Armsmen most certainly need tweaked and brought back up to par. The only saving grace is our polearm dps which is mitigated via debuffs (see assassins) and defense. So we have the capability to pump out decent DPS but it's very situational and really only relevant if you're not debuffed to hell
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Thank you for clarifying for them @Novoal7
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how is this an armsen issue and not a:n issue for ALL melee ? i could WHINE about the exact same on my savage.