in return for generally inferior armour, midgard classes can use one handed and two handed in the same skill line, this is a FUNDAMENTAL design about ALL of midgard and has been so since the start of the game. THAT is never going to change. midgard heavy tanks, chain, albion heavy tanks, plate ... albion light tank, chain, midgard light tanks studded.
ask for 2.1 or maybe 2.2 spec points on armsmen to compensate for the dual speccing. lol, heretics effectively with last patch both got love in the form of better self buffs and/or received the equivalent of more spec points to get their self buffs at the same level they were before and be able to get other spec lines higher.
Post edited by Muylae on
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Just to reiterate this thread is for the benefit of all three heavy tanks; it's focused however on Armsmen as they are the worse of the three.
There has been a lot of really well thought out posts here, of which I have PM'd to @Carol_Broadsword
@Boduke you are correct. Hero's should also sub spec as well; however, unlike armsmen it isn't absolutely required. Plus you have the ability to swap between crush/slash (if LW).
Hero's and Armsmen are definitely closer to each other in terms of character design (minus stag morph, tactics and plate armor).
Their isn't really any counterargument to the contrary. Armsmen most certainly need tweaked and brought back up to par. The only saving grace is our polearm dps which is mitigated via debuffs (see assassins) and defense. So we have the capability to pump out decent DPS but it's very situational and really only relevant if you're not debuffed to hell
how is this an armsen issue and not a:n issue for ALL melee ? i could WHINE about the exact same on my savage.
Jfc Muy please read the entire thread before commenting. It is relevant to all heavy tanks. Please see in this thread the multiple times I, and others, stated that this thread is relevant to all heavy tanks. It's more focused on Armsmen then the other two heavy tanks because Armsmen are the worst of the three (this has been specifically spelled out and elaborated upon multiple times throughout this thread).
This is not a "WHINE" thread. Unlike your opinions regarding warlocks and savages, I'm looking for ways to "tweak" all three heavy tanks with Armsmen receiving the majority bonus in tweaks without making heavy tanks overpowered due to, as stated multiple times, Armsmen are in the worst position of the three tanks.
Yes please keep this thread on topic. This thread is only relevant to the three Heavy Tanks (Warrior, Hero and Armsmen). Please do not post irrelevant comparisons among unrelated classes.
Read a comment in a different thread suggesting that Polearm, being a unique weapon line, receive a %bonus to parry as well as damage. I like the concept of this, especially upon specializing 50 points into Polearm. Would also be interesting to see something similar for Large Weapons and Celtic Spear. Maybe small %bonus to evade? (evade 1 on a short timer duration?)
Edit: I forgot to mention the above idea was from @Keltorius (in respect to Polearm). In which he makes a very valid point supporting the %bonus to Parry as we have to sacrifice a vast majority of points that would otherwise go into parry due to the requirement of sub-specialization.
Makes sense for Polemarm and Celtic Spear. Not so much Large Weapons as that line is not unique to one class.
Edit: my typing skills are diminishing.
Post edited by Tyrantanic on
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Makes semse for Polemarm and Celtic Spear. Not so much Large Weapons as that line is not unique to one class.
Ahh I completely overlooked that, thank you for clarifying that @Beetleguisse. Yeah I'm interested in the prospect that this idea holds as well. Would be beneficial yet not overpowered as it would require a specialization of 50 into the applicable spec line.
I forgot Celtic Spear. Back when I played my Armsman on Bors, had to spec Thrust to a composite 50 to help with Polearm damage. I am guessing that still holds true now?
I forgot Celtic Spear. Back when I played my Armsman on Bors, had to spec Thrust to a composite 50 to help with Polearm damage. I am guessing that still holds true now?
Aye, to get the most out of WS and Polearm dps you want composite 51+ which, with mandatory 42 shield among all heavy tanks, makes it incredibly difficult for low rr Armsmen to have many points invested in parry unless they want to drop polearm to 44 until higher rr.
I forgot Celtic Spear. Back when I played my Armsman on Bors, had to spec Thrust to a composite 50 to help with Polearm damage. I am guessing that still holds true now?
Aye, to get the most out of WS and Polearm dps you want composite 51+ which, with mandatory 42 shield among all heavy tanks, makes it incredibly difficult for low rr Armsmen to have many points invested in parry unless they want to drop polearm to 44 until higher rr.
For clarity, Celtic Spear does not require you to sub-spec. This is an Alb only issue outside of Dual Wielding spec lines.
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
I forgot Celtic Spear. Back when I played my Armsman on Bors, had to spec Thrust to a composite 50 to help with Polearm damage. I am guessing that still holds true now?
Aye, to get the most out of WS and Polearm dps you want composite 51+ which, with mandatory 42 shield among all heavy tanks, makes it incredibly difficult for low rr Armsmen to have many points invested in parry unless they want to drop polearm to 44 until higher rr.
For clarity, Celtic Spear does not require you to sub-spec. This is an Alb only issue outside of Dual Wielding spec lines.
Aye that is correct . Same with Large Weaponry which offers the choices to alternate between slash and crush
I remember now that my Arms was 44 Polearm back then. He’s about 11k RPs from RR5. He should have been higher RR than that back then, but started playing a Scout and fell in love with her. lol
really, simplu, give armsmen 2.1/2.2 spec points and they are up to par with heroes and warriors. Or get rid of the double speccing requirement. (that could arguably make them a lot better than warriors, and maybe heros, not going to comment on that, i don't have enough experience with hero specs)
heavy tanks really aren't bad. otherwise herorius wouldn't have shitloads in his BG, he knows how to use them. some classes are good solo, some classes are good in small man, some classes are good in FG, some classes are good in zerg,................... you can't expect to be good at everything.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Heavy tanks require a lot of support. With enough healing and interrupts from support det9 heavy tanks are beastly. The problem is albs tend to be more caster heavy and therefore the heavy tanks or any tanks for that matter are left out to dry
It’s the age old problem on alb Burkley that is the root problem on alb you have to compromise on alb to make a good group.
It’s all about utility in making the group and alb are sub par .
Mid run very minimal warriors in Zerg either, however Hero utilizes Heros very well. People tend to not play them as much in other realms except Hib, however they work amazingly there for pushing.
I'been playing Hero in old times, they been very good solo/small man, mildly worked in 8 man, and been good in zergs. They just less good in all the possible situations now, however I still say they are fairly good in many. Heavys still amazing in Zergs, good in small man, and average on solo/8man. However, I don't think they are really bad in any situation, which is rare between the classes.
Played my armsman in a decent pug last night. We had mine and a free gear armsman merc and pally and were doing pretty good. I just wish the positional snares were a little longer in duration. Pally is definitely key with celerity, we were melting tanks like casters.
Played my armsman in a decent pug last night. We had mine and a free gear armsman merc and pally and were doing pretty good. I just wish the positional snares were a little longer in duration. Pally is definitely key with celerity, we were melting tanks like casters.
Aye, heavy tank issues can be overshadowed in 8man/zerg gameplay but I that's been too "convenient" of an excuse not to dust them off for too long. Pretty much any class issues can be downplayed when running with numbers.
There is very little argument against tweaking the HT's, Especially the Armsman; as there have been very very good posts throughout this thread indicating the identified issues and proposed tweaks needed.
I'm personally very much against any kind of tweaking that affects heavy tanks, unless it means to nerf them.
It seems most of the complaints stems from them not being as strong for soloing as they once were. While I agree that is the case it is my belief that they do in fact over perform in group play. They are a nightmare to try and burst down with casters as well as tanks and they straight up outdps other tanks including light tanks once they get celerity, other than when vendo, triple wield and mercrr5 is used, and savages in general. Running tank groups with multiple heavy tanks is common except on mid where warriors although relatively on par with the other realms heavies get outperformed and replaced by better tanks on its own realm, mainly savages. If their current weaknesses of relative immobility (i.e not having charge), lack of distant interrupts or inability to catch fleeing targets were somehow compensated for or straight up nullified, there'd be little reason to play anything else. Those weaknesses are why heavies have (amongst other things) free aom9 and 10% extra hp, well before things like free charge5/vanish/MoS was being handed out too. They certainly don't need better survivability of any kind and they most certainly don't need better damage, speaking from a group perspective at least.
I agree that for solo it's warrior > hero > armsman, but for group it's the exact opposite in armsman > hero >>>>>> warrior. This is mainly because armsmen get the best cloak option out of the 3 (pbt piercing very fun and interactive to play against) and alb hybrid/tankheavy groups lend themselves very well for a defensive playstyle where one or more armsmen and a pally (+ others) eventually collapse on targets for massive damage. The armsman rr5 is also the strongest of the 3 thanks to the synergy with dashing defense. Heroes are also very strong, as are warriors. They are fun to play, simple, straightforward yet lethal, and very frustrating to fight against especially when the enemy group has multiple of them, it quickly becomes a very cancerous endeavor.
From my perspective, having two rr11 heavy tanks with a 3rd well on the way, It'd be a nightmare to make this archetype stronger than it already is. The armsman especially would be particularly bad to see buffed. Also defending keeps against herorius when 20 heroes (yes, really) climb in is already bad enough.
Now if there were ways to buff them for solo without making them more over the top in other playstyles, by all means go ahead, but please don't try to buff them for the sake of solo and create consequences for other playstyles. The game is not balanced for solo meaning it's impossible for this game to have every class have a 50/50 chance of beating every other class, it simply isn't happening.
I don't see much you can do to this archetype that would be an impactful enough boost to its solo performance, while at the same time not making it over the top for group. Having rampage affect poison debuffs isn't a bad idea, a minimum 20 second window midfight where you aren't WS debuffed assuming the assassin opens with it before you get to pop your rampage is actually a big deal in that matchup, and a reasonable request. Armsmen getting snapshot for free would be completely fine as well, but I'd rather the buffs went no further than that.
I appreciate your input @Flik and I agree with you but I counter on this... valewalkers were amazing 1v1, right? Yet they were upgraded to make them more desirable for groups. Why can't that be the case for the Armsman then in your opinion?
I only agree with you on the fact that yes, with the appropriate group setup Armsmen can be very effective. But isn't that pretty much true for EVERY class in the game?
I was personally 100%'d by a rr5 mauler. Yes the mauler knew what he was doing but it's insane that a rr12 Arms get's worked by any freaking class with a HoT.
Likewise our supposedly great rr5. I literally was just slammed with my rr5 active and lost a fight against a warrior.
This isn't just observations coming from someone knowledgeable with the game, this is coming from someone who's essentially exclusively played an Armsman for the last 4 years.
I appreciate your knowledge but I would appreciate it also if you'd leave your subjective interpretation of a class in certain conditions as that; applicable to certain conditions.
I appreciate your input @Flik and I agree with you but I counter on this... valewalkers were amazing 1v1, right? Yet they were upgraded to make them more desirable for groups. Why can't that be the case for the Armsman then in your opinion?
I only agree with you on the fact that yes, with the appropriate group setup Armsmen can be very effective. But isn't that pretty much true for EVERY class in the game?
I was personally 100%'d by a rr5 mauler. Yes the mauler knew what he was doing but it's insane that a rr12 Arms get's worked by any freaking class with a HoT.
Likewise our supposedly great rr5. I literally was just slammed with my rr5 active and lost a fight against a warrior.
This isn't just observations coming from someone knowledgeable with the game, this is coming from someone who's essentially exclusively played an Armsman for the last 4 years.
I appreciate your knowledge but I would appreciate it also if you'd leave your subjective interpretation of a class in certain conditions as that; applicable to certain conditions.
You sound reeeaaaal dumb. Mauler hot is in AM if you got **** bodied by a caster mauler on an arms I dont know what to say to you lol.
Does your RR5 say you are completely immune to any kind of in coming attack? or did you happen to just have some bad rng and die?
Armsmen need no kind of buff or any other heavy tank at all really.
I appreciate your input @Flik and I agree with you but I counter on this... valewalkers were amazing 1v1, right? Yet they were upgraded to make them more desirable for groups. Why can't that be the case for the Armsman then in your opinion?
Valewalkers are amazing in 1v1s and seemingly more fotm than ever, weren't bad in groups either and in my personal opinion didn't need the buff, I saw that more as a buff for solo which in my mind made no sense, but it has also helped them out in groups you are right. In the armsman/heavy tank situation we have the opposite situation though, classes that are already good in groups but lacking for solo. I argue balance is more important to consider in group play because as I stated you aren't going to have every class have a 50/50 chance of beating another class when you consider their solo capabilities, and trying to compensate for the lack thereof may very well make the class to strong for grouping, which needs to take higher priority design wise over solo performance if the two are mutually exclusive which they can often be.
I'll bring reaver up as an example of how I try to think about the game as a whole rather than wanting a class to excel at every aspect of the game. Reavers are widely considered to be among the top 3 solo classes in the game, yet for groups they are complete garbage. For a group they bring both great interrupts and they are the best peel class in the game if battlemaster, yet they are still garbage for groups. Nothing of what they offer is of any need to an alb group, and their fundamental flaw is they don't do much damage, something an alb group seeks more than anything else. Interrupts? Minstrels do it better and are already being cut for more plate tanks/necros, alb doesn't need more interrupts thanks to theurgists. Peels? In any non-fullcaster alb setup you will already have a paladin in this role, and likely one or more armsmen, which more than suffices. Having a peel tank, as great as it may be, that doesn't do much damage is not needed in alb.
So how do you fix reavers for group play? Easy; you make them do more damage. Now, I am not going to ever advocate for this because I know how badly this will affect the solo game, a playstyle which imo shouldn't even be of consideration in terms of balance, but is a part of the game all the same. So I am fine with reavers being terrible in groups, because they excel at another part of the game, and fixing them for groups would likely result in them becoming solo gods more so than they already are. I ask you to share this perspective in terms of heavy tanks, who aren't in the spot they once were where they could slam and kill targets in said slam, but they are amazing in group play, and they need no love. Every class is not going to be a) viable for every playstyle and b) equally good at every aspect of the game, ranging from solo, smallman, group and zerg. That is simply something we all have to accept and live with.
I only agree with you on the fact that yes, with the appropriate group setup Armsmen can be very effective. But isn't that pretty much true for EVERY class in the game?
To some extent, but some classes like the reaver I mentioned above will always be cut for other tanks like armsmen if an "optimal group setup" is to be formed. As effective as you can make a well played reaver, it simply doesn't perform any function that an alb group desires. Of course that doesn't mean the class can't be grouped, it just won't be optimal is all.
I was personally 100%'d by a rr5 mauler. Yes the mauler knew what he was doing but it's insane that a rr12 Arms get's worked by any freaking class with a HoT.
It is my understanding and experience that every melee class gets murdered by maulers in 1v1s, even assassins. This is why thinking of balancing for solo is a bad idea, if every class could beat a mauler half the time, it's hard to imagine what the game would even look like anymore. Maulers deal poorly with good kiting classes / casters, and multiples, but against your armsman they have an excellent matchup. Should they be nerfed? Possibly. They aren't a main stay in groups but they often find themselves welcome, would you be able to nerf them for solo, despite their above mentioned weaknesses, without gutting them for group where they are already not always desired?
Likewise our supposedly great rr5. I literally was just slammed with my rr5 active and lost a fight against a warrior.
Certainly a rr5 suited more for group play as opposed to solo, but even then it's still decent no? The upside far outweighs the 10% downside on expiration. There was a discussion about the downside being removed, but even with the downside it seems like an overall powerful ability to me. Sure it can be negated by runthroughs, welcome to every other melee class' in the game's issues. Apply counterstrafing maneuvers as best you can, the main issue with this was that assassins could keep you permanently snared for free making this difficult, but now if they choose to do so they aren't debuffing you properly any more.
This isn't just observations coming from someone knowledgeable with the game, this is coming from someone who's essentially exclusively played an Armsman for the last 4 years.
I am not saying you are wrong or that your efforts to get the only class you play buffed are unjustified. However, we saw recently what happened with heretics and RMs when the player base demanded balance only thinking about their own agenda and the classes and realms that they themselves play, and broadsword listened. Although seemingly having died down now the initial reactions were nothing short of an outrage. When people think only about the classes they play themselves it is easy to loose perspective of what will happen to the game overall when proposed changes take place. Thus your exclusive armsman experience is more of a detriment to your arguments, inviting thoughts of heavy bias and the goal of receiving buffs, consequences be damned.
I hope people see something to be learned from what recently happened to heretics and runemasters receiving ST, something I was very surprised to see make it past testing. The average player is not a game designer and likely does not have the overall games best intentions in mind when suggesting changes.
I appreciate your knowledge but I would appreciate it also if you'd leave your subjective interpretation of a class in certain conditions as that; applicable to certain conditions.
I’d like to congratulate you amp on rr12 great achievement .The recent patches benefited hib tanks a lot the enchanter and champion combo in a hib tank group is very strong I could never figure out why hibs needed the melee boost that comes in the enchantment line be nice if we had something similar on alb mid were also benefitted hugely with charge 5 for light tanks again but the main thing that has damaged the alb heavy tank train is heals and the amount of heals you come up against.
The recent patches have made it increasingly hard for a heavy alb tank train unless you interupt massively you will never out dps most groups.
I don’t play my armsman now because basically it’s a peel bot now and only run if I’m in a 16 man or if I have the right group set up which these days on alb is increasingly difficult.
When you close on a luri or kobold caster and whiffle for 2 minutes and it’s health stays at 100 percent you got to think something wrong in this game.
I add that on mid on hib I never have that problem once I close on something with hib or mid tanks especially on a caster it’s dead.
In zergs it’s subpar mainly because of most of the above.
I’d like to see a general toning down on heals overall and some sort of dps enhancement for armsmen whether that’s a group buff from another class or a spec point change.
I’d like to congratulate you amp on rr12 great achievement .The recent patches benefited hib tanks a lot the enchanter and champion combo in a hib tank group is very strong I could never figure out why hibs needed the melee boost that comes in the enchantment line be nice if we had something similar on alb mid were also benefitted hugely with charge 5 for light tanks again but the main thing that has damaged the alb heavy tank train is heals and the amount of heals you come up against.
The recent patches have made it increasingly hard for a heavy alb tank train unless you interupt massively you will never out dps most groups.
I don’t play my armsman now because basically it’s a peel bot now and only run if I’m in a 16 man or if I have the right group set up which these days on alb is increasingly difficult.
When you close on a luri or kobold caster and whiffle for 2 minutes and it’s health stays at 100 percent you got to think something wrong in this game.
I add that on mid on hib I never have that problem once I close on something with hib or mid tanks especially on a caster it’s dead.
In zergs it’s subpar mainly because of most of the above.
I’d like to see a general toning down on heals overall and some sort of dps enhancement for armsmen whether that’s a group buff from another class or a spec point change.
This has been my experience. I've been playing my Arms again lately and despite being in a top fo the line temp... I simply see nothing that he offers that my Pally doesn't do better. Damage output is weak....damage absorption is about on part with the Pally (unless I fury/rampage...which is timer based and available to all heavies so not unique), ....no real unique group utility that makes them desirable over other classes (ie: Pallys can peal just as well if not better, bring buffs/chants, and heals, Mercs bring great damage, Reavers pop stealth and interrupt while pealing)
I think a few "shouts" or auras similar to the cure mez would be useful. Other than simply getting rr5 for the sake of getting rr5 I struggle to find a reason to play the Armsman over my Merc, Reaver, Pally or Mauler.
Comments
in return for generally inferior armour, midgard classes can use one handed and two handed in the same skill line, this is a FUNDAMENTAL design about ALL of midgard and has been so since the start of the game. THAT is never going to change. midgard heavy tanks, chain, albion heavy tanks, plate ... albion light tank, chain, midgard light tanks studded.
ask for 2.1 or maybe 2.2 spec points on armsmen to compensate for the dual speccing. lol, heretics effectively with last patch both got love in the form of better self buffs and/or received the equivalent of more spec points to get their self buffs at the same level they were before and be able to get other spec lines higher.
Jfc Muy please read the entire thread before commenting. It is relevant to all heavy tanks. Please see in this thread the multiple times I, and others, stated that this thread is relevant to all heavy tanks. It's more focused on Armsmen then the other two heavy tanks because Armsmen are the worst of the three (this has been specifically spelled out and elaborated upon multiple times throughout this thread).
This is not a "WHINE" thread. Unlike your opinions regarding warlocks and savages, I'm looking for ways to "tweak" all three heavy tanks with Armsmen receiving the majority bonus in tweaks without making heavy tanks overpowered due to, as stated multiple times, Armsmen are in the worst position of the three tanks.
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Thank you Brut,
Yes please keep this thread on topic. This thread is only relevant to the three Heavy Tanks (Warrior, Hero and Armsmen). Please do not post irrelevant comparisons among unrelated classes.
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Edit: I forgot to mention the above idea was from @Keltorius (in respect to Polearm). In which he makes a very valid point supporting the %bonus to Parry as we have to sacrifice a vast majority of points that would otherwise go into parry due to the requirement of sub-specialization.
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Edit: my typing skills are diminishing.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Ahh I completely overlooked that, thank you for clarifying that @Beetleguisse. Yeah I'm interested in the prospect that this idea holds as well. Would be beneficial yet not overpowered as it would require a specialization of 50 into the applicable spec line.
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Aye, to get the most out of WS and Polearm dps you want composite 51+ which, with mandatory 42 shield among all heavy tanks, makes it incredibly difficult for low rr Armsmen to have many points invested in parry unless they want to drop polearm to 44 until higher rr.
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For clarity, Celtic Spear does not require you to sub-spec. This is an Alb only issue outside of Dual Wielding spec lines.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Aye that is correct
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Lmao
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How dare you!
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Go even further beyond Int Arms!
I am sad, I lub Inconnu Armsman
The HO Train cannot be stopped!
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Lmao yeah I knew you were
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Armsmen need to remain strong and resilient until we can see our class upgraded by the Gods.
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heavy tanks really aren't bad. otherwise herorius wouldn't have shitloads in his BG, he knows how to use them. some classes are good solo, some classes are good in small man, some classes are good in FG, some classes are good in zerg,................... you can't expect to be good at everything.
It’s all about utility in making the group and alb are sub par .
I'been playing Hero in old times, they been very good solo/small man, mildly worked in 8 man, and been good in zergs. They just less good in all the possible situations now, however I still say they are fairly good in many. Heavys still amazing in Zergs, good in small man, and average on solo/8man. However, I don't think they are really bad in any situation, which is rare between the classes.
Aye, heavy tank issues can be overshadowed in 8man/zerg gameplay but I that's been too "convenient" of an excuse not to dust them off for too long. Pretty much any class issues can be downplayed when running with numbers.
There is very little argument against tweaking the HT's, Especially the Armsman; as there have been very very good posts throughout this thread indicating the identified issues and proposed tweaks needed.
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It seems most of the complaints stems from them not being as strong for soloing as they once were. While I agree that is the case it is my belief that they do in fact over perform in group play. They are a nightmare to try and burst down with casters as well as tanks and they straight up outdps other tanks including light tanks once they get celerity, other than when vendo, triple wield and mercrr5 is used, and savages in general. Running tank groups with multiple heavy tanks is common except on mid where warriors although relatively on par with the other realms heavies get outperformed and replaced by better tanks on its own realm, mainly savages. If their current weaknesses of relative immobility (i.e not having charge), lack of distant interrupts or inability to catch fleeing targets were somehow compensated for or straight up nullified, there'd be little reason to play anything else. Those weaknesses are why heavies have (amongst other things) free aom9 and 10% extra hp, well before things like free charge5/vanish/MoS was being handed out too. They certainly don't need better survivability of any kind and they most certainly don't need better damage, speaking from a group perspective at least.
I agree that for solo it's warrior > hero > armsman, but for group it's the exact opposite in armsman > hero >>>>>> warrior. This is mainly because armsmen get the best cloak option out of the 3 (pbt piercing very fun and interactive to play against) and alb hybrid/tankheavy groups lend themselves very well for a defensive playstyle where one or more armsmen and a pally (+ others) eventually collapse on targets for massive damage. The armsman rr5 is also the strongest of the 3 thanks to the synergy with dashing defense. Heroes are also very strong, as are warriors. They are fun to play, simple, straightforward yet lethal, and very frustrating to fight against especially when the enemy group has multiple of them, it quickly becomes a very cancerous endeavor.
From my perspective, having two rr11 heavy tanks with a 3rd well on the way, It'd be a nightmare to make this archetype stronger than it already is. The armsman especially would be particularly bad to see buffed. Also defending keeps against herorius when 20 heroes (yes, really) climb in is already bad enough.
Now if there were ways to buff them for solo without making them more over the top in other playstyles, by all means go ahead, but please don't try to buff them for the sake of solo and create consequences for other playstyles. The game is not balanced for solo meaning it's impossible for this game to have every class have a 50/50 chance of beating every other class, it simply isn't happening.
I don't see much you can do to this archetype that would be an impactful enough boost to its solo performance, while at the same time not making it over the top for group. Having rampage affect poison debuffs isn't a bad idea, a minimum 20 second window midfight where you aren't WS debuffed assuming the assassin opens with it before you get to pop your rampage is actually a big deal in that matchup, and a reasonable request. Armsmen getting snapshot for free would be completely fine as well, but I'd rather the buffs went no further than that.
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I only agree with you on the fact that yes, with the appropriate group setup Armsmen can be very effective. But isn't that pretty much true for EVERY class in the game?
I was personally 100%'d by a rr5 mauler. Yes the mauler knew what he was doing but it's insane that a rr12 Arms get's worked by any freaking class with a HoT.
Likewise our supposedly great rr5. I literally was just slammed with my rr5 active and lost a fight against a warrior.
This isn't just observations coming from someone knowledgeable with the game, this is coming from someone who's essentially exclusively played an Armsman for the last 4 years.
I appreciate your knowledge but I would appreciate it also if you'd leave your subjective interpretation of a class in certain conditions as that; applicable to certain conditions.
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You sound reeeaaaal dumb. Mauler hot is in AM if you got **** bodied by a caster mauler on an arms I dont know what to say to you lol.
Does your RR5 say you are completely immune to any kind of in coming attack? or did you happen to just have some bad rng and die?
Armsmen need no kind of buff or any other heavy tank at all really.
Valewalkers are amazing in 1v1s and seemingly more fotm than ever, weren't bad in groups either and in my personal opinion didn't need the buff, I saw that more as a buff for solo which in my mind made no sense, but it has also helped them out in groups you are right. In the armsman/heavy tank situation we have the opposite situation though, classes that are already good in groups but lacking for solo. I argue balance is more important to consider in group play because as I stated you aren't going to have every class have a 50/50 chance of beating another class when you consider their solo capabilities, and trying to compensate for the lack thereof may very well make the class to strong for grouping, which needs to take higher priority design wise over solo performance if the two are mutually exclusive which they can often be.
I'll bring reaver up as an example of how I try to think about the game as a whole rather than wanting a class to excel at every aspect of the game. Reavers are widely considered to be among the top 3 solo classes in the game, yet for groups they are complete garbage. For a group they bring both great interrupts and they are the best peel class in the game if battlemaster, yet they are still garbage for groups. Nothing of what they offer is of any need to an alb group, and their fundamental flaw is they don't do much damage, something an alb group seeks more than anything else. Interrupts? Minstrels do it better and are already being cut for more plate tanks/necros, alb doesn't need more interrupts thanks to theurgists. Peels? In any non-fullcaster alb setup you will already have a paladin in this role, and likely one or more armsmen, which more than suffices. Having a peel tank, as great as it may be, that doesn't do much damage is not needed in alb.
So how do you fix reavers for group play? Easy; you make them do more damage. Now, I am not going to ever advocate for this because I know how badly this will affect the solo game, a playstyle which imo shouldn't even be of consideration in terms of balance, but is a part of the game all the same. So I am fine with reavers being terrible in groups, because they excel at another part of the game, and fixing them for groups would likely result in them becoming solo gods more so than they already are. I ask you to share this perspective in terms of heavy tanks, who aren't in the spot they once were where they could slam and kill targets in said slam, but they are amazing in group play, and they need no love. Every class is not going to be a) viable for every playstyle and b) equally good at every aspect of the game, ranging from solo, smallman, group and zerg. That is simply something we all have to accept and live with.
To some extent, but some classes like the reaver I mentioned above will always be cut for other tanks like armsmen if an "optimal group setup" is to be formed. As effective as you can make a well played reaver, it simply doesn't perform any function that an alb group desires. Of course that doesn't mean the class can't be grouped, it just won't be optimal is all.
It is my understanding and experience that every melee class gets murdered by maulers in 1v1s, even assassins. This is why thinking of balancing for solo is a bad idea, if every class could beat a mauler half the time, it's hard to imagine what the game would even look like anymore. Maulers deal poorly with good kiting classes / casters, and multiples, but against your armsman they have an excellent matchup. Should they be nerfed? Possibly. They aren't a main stay in groups but they often find themselves welcome, would you be able to nerf them for solo, despite their above mentioned weaknesses, without gutting them for group where they are already not always desired?
Certainly a rr5 suited more for group play as opposed to solo, but even then it's still decent no? The upside far outweighs the 10% downside on expiration. There was a discussion about the downside being removed, but even with the downside it seems like an overall powerful ability to me. Sure it can be negated by runthroughs, welcome to every other melee class' in the game's issues. Apply counterstrafing maneuvers as best you can, the main issue with this was that assassins could keep you permanently snared for free making this difficult, but now if they choose to do so they aren't debuffing you properly any more.
I am not saying you are wrong or that your efforts to get the only class you play buffed are unjustified. However, we saw recently what happened with heretics and RMs when the player base demanded balance only thinking about their own agenda and the classes and realms that they themselves play, and broadsword listened. Although seemingly having died down now the initial reactions were nothing short of an outrage. When people think only about the classes they play themselves it is easy to loose perspective of what will happen to the game overall when proposed changes take place. Thus your exclusive armsman experience is more of a detriment to your arguments, inviting thoughts of heavy bias and the goal of receiving buffs, consequences be damned.
I hope people see something to be learned from what recently happened to heretics and runemasters receiving ST, something I was very surprised to see make it past testing. The average player is not a game designer and likely does not have the overall games best intentions in mind when suggesting changes.
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The recent patches have made it increasingly hard for a heavy alb tank train unless you interupt massively you will never out dps most groups.
I don’t play my armsman now because basically it’s a peel bot now and only run if I’m in a 16 man or if I have the right group set up which these days on alb is increasingly difficult.
When you close on a luri or kobold caster and whiffle for 2 minutes and it’s health stays at 100 percent you got to think something wrong in this game.
I add that on mid on hib I never have that problem once I close on something with hib or mid tanks especially on a caster it’s dead.
In zergs it’s subpar mainly because of most of the above.
I’d like to see a general toning down on heals overall and some sort of dps enhancement for armsmen whether that’s a group buff from another class or a spec point change.
This has been my experience. I've been playing my Arms again lately and despite being in a top fo the line temp... I simply see nothing that he offers that my Pally doesn't do better. Damage output is weak....damage absorption is about on part with the Pally (unless I fury/rampage...which is timer based and available to all heavies so not unique), ....no real unique group utility that makes them desirable over other classes (ie: Pallys can peal just as well if not better, bring buffs/chants, and heals, Mercs bring great damage, Reavers pop stealth and interrupt while pealing)
I think a few "shouts" or auras similar to the cure mez would be useful. Other than simply getting rr5 for the sake of getting rr5 I struggle to find a reason to play the Armsman over my Merc, Reaver, Pally or Mauler.