You only provided an example of realm hopping due to relics. I provided a remedy yet you continue to say it's bad. Please provide another example.
You provided another reason for realm hopping, the most common one for casual players on Ywain according to you, and I explained my view on that as well. I will quote that part again, for the second time, giving you a third chance to read it.
Casual players realm hop on Ywain primarily to join the realm with a BG since not all three have one every day during prime time. That problem can only be fixed by the community which requires a few dedicated players to step up and lead. However, you can get situations like Rescu where they refuse to let a better leader take the reins and all the lemmings follow suit to slaughter. Consequently, players avoid playing Alb because there's an ineffective leader.
Realm hopping because the zerg is more sucessful on another realm is not something I think will benefit the RvR scene, why not set a system that gives every realm an incentive to form their own sucessful zerg. If a zerg leader is not appriciated by the realm community there is every chance for a new leader to take over, instead of everyone that does not want to be in the old zerg leaders zerg leave for another realms zerg.
All of this really only affects zerg play which isn't the only play style DAoC supports. If that's what you're interested in, that's fine. I love big fights myself. I also hate zergs that mow down other play styles simply because they don't want to die in a video game. The classic server will never be like any of the original servers. The magic is gone. It'll just be DAoC with fewer buttons, choices, and possibly even fewer players once the nostalgia glasses come off.
No, it does effect the whole realms effectivity in RvR.
I am not a big fan of running in a zerg, I rather solo on my NS when my guild/group mates isn't logged in or doesn't have oppurtunity to play in the frontiers.
I don't think the classic server will be exactly like the original servers, I want something that is very different from Ywain and gives me an experience more similar to the gaming experience I got when playing the original server.
You do realize success of a zerg is a player / community driven issue regardless of realm hopping, right? My point was that the die hard Albion players are the reason their zerg play suffers since they refuse to accept anyone they don't recognize. Therefore, they continually lose players due to their poor performance. This does not help your argument. What is the fundamental benefit for locking players into a singular realm? Can you address that?
You do realize success of a zerg is a player / community driven issue regardless of realm hopping, right? My point was that the die hard Albion players are the reason their zerg play suffers since they refuse to accept anyone they don't recognize. Therefore, they continually lose players due to their poor performance. This does not help your argument. What is the fundamental benefit for locking players into a singular realm? Can you address that?
I believe one realm/account will be beneficial for realm pride. Not being able to change realms because the realm you play on is at a disadvantage but instead making an effort to remove that disadvantage, whatever the disadvantage is, will in my opinion be good for the realm and create a feeling of realm pride.
You seem to think realm pride is something bad, I do not. I think it is something to aspire to.
Realm pride is a roleplaying concept, imo. It promotes the "red is dead" approach to DAoC which is detrimental to all play styles except for zerging. It also leads to ignorance of other classes and discourages balancing around unique abilities which is a staple in DAoC. While I accept the game is intended for RvRvR, there are insufficient objectives to only support that play style. Capturing relics is literally the only objective outside of PvP (i.e. just killing other players) for zergs. Taking keeps and towers are a means to that end. There is literally nothing else to do on a Realm vs. Realm basis other than to kill other players. So how do the developers keep the game from becoming stale or completely one sided if players are locked into one realm? Realm pride certainly isn't the answer as it's likely the culprit.
It promotes the "red is dead" approach to DAoC which is detrimental to all play styles except for zerging.
Red is dead exists on Ywain aswell, it did when I played there at least, I stopped playing 2013 so things might have changed. I suppose everyone knows everyone on Ywain at this point.
Realm pride is not about being disrespectful to the players on the other realms, there were unwritten rules of how to behave 2002- forward, those that broke against the rules could not count on being treated with respect and those that followed the rules were treated with respect by most.
It also leads to ignorance of other classes and discourages balancing around unique abilities which is a staple in DAoC.
It is the delevopers that take care of the balancing. Players that did not learn about the classes the other realms have access to put them selves at a disadvantage, you were forced to learn what the enemy could do to do well yourself.
While I accept the game is intended for RvRvR, there are insufficient objectives to only support that play style. Capturing relics is literally the only objective outside of PvP (i.e. just killing other players) for zergs. Taking keeps and towers are a means to that end. There is literally nothing else to do on a Realm vs. Realm basis other than to kill other players. So how do the developers keep the game from becoming stale or completely one sided if players are locked into one realm? Realm pride certainly isn't the answer as it's likely the culprit.
I think relics are a nice part of RvR, some changes would be good but the general idea is nice in my opinion.
Access to DF is also an objective, I liked the action that happened in there when the access changed realms.
I do not see how realm pride would hinder 8 vs. 8, smallman vs. smallman or solo vs. solo. 2001-2004 big zergs in the frontiers were mostly a thing when there was a relic raid going on. I ran in 8 man group most of the time and there were many more 8 man groups running at the same time from all realms, very rarely was there a zerg running, could meet one once in a while.
To avoid the game becoming stale or completely one sided is in big part the server populations objective. If one realm becomes boring, just delete and reroll another if there is just one server available. Allowing realm hopping seems to me to be a way to make it one sided, abandon the disadvantaged realm till the few that wants to make the effort to remove the disadvantage has been able to do so.
Much has changed in the past 8 years. Some good and some bad. The red is dead crowd is largely tied to zerging on Ywain. The other play styles generally do better outside prime time when the zergs log.
As it stands, Ywain has zero objectives left on a RvRvR basis. DF is accessible regardless of realm ownership and generally only has macro teams inside. There are few to no XP groups as it's extremely fast to reach 50 solo (sub 10 hours) without DF. Consequently, Ywain end game is primarily focused on PvP whether it be zerg vs. zerg, 8v8, 1v1, etc.
You use the term "disadvantaged" realm a lot to justify your stance on realm locking. I don't see any way for a realm to be disadvantaged over another other than via population imbalance (relics are a non-issue in modern DAoC). How can population imbalance be corrected if players are locked into one realm? The ability to switch realms actually helps in this regard. It also can hurt when players bandwagon, but that can be discouraged by the developers through bonuses or penalties depending on what they choose. The competitive crowd will always balance itself out. They want fights. The casual crowd is more susceptible to bandwagon, typically in zergs. These players are focused on RPs rather than fights. However, as long as there's an active BG up on each realm during prime time, population balances out. This couldn't happen without the ability to switch realms.
I don't see the need to lock players into a single realm. It's unnecessary. Should there be a timer? Sure. But it should be adjusted to reflect overall population. The timer could even be shorter to switch to underpopulated realms. What a novel concept...
Edit: since you played 8v8 regularly, how exactly did realm swapping hurt your play style?
Much has changed in the past 8 years. Some good and some bad. The red is dead crowd is largely tied to zerging on Ywain. The other play styles generally do better outside prime time when the zergs log.
As it stands, Ywain has zero objectives left on a RvRvR basis. DF is accessible regardless of realm ownership and generally only has macro teams inside. There are few to no XP groups as it's extremely fast to reach 50 solo (sub 10 hours) without DF. Consequently, Ywain end game is primarily focused on PvP whether it be zerg vs. zerg, 8v8, 1v1, etc.
I hope the alternate rulset server will be very different from Ywain.
I think the choice to make DF accessable to the realm that owned most keeps (OF) or keeps+towers (NF) was good, created a fun RvR parameter to DF. I would not like it if that RvR objective was removed on the alternate ruleset server.
I hope the leveling speed on the new server will be a bit slower on the alternate ruleset server, make power leveling harder (making the xp/mob for the low level characters lower). I don't want it to be as slow as it was on original servers though but not as quick as it is on Ywain.
End game should be focused on RvR, but the way it sounds like it is on Ywain does not sound alluring to me.
You use the term "disadvantaged" realm a lot to justify your stance on realm locking. I don't see any way for a realm to be disadvantaged over another other than via population imbalance (relics are a non-issue in modern DAoC). How can population imbalance be corrected if players are locked into one realm? The ability to switch realms actually helps in this regard. It also can hurt when players bandwagon, but that can be discouraged by the developers through bonuses or penalties depending on what they choose. The competitive crowd will always balance itself out. They want fights. The casual crowd is more susceptible to bandwagon, typically in zergs. These players are focused on RPs rather than fights. However, as long as there's an active BG up on each realm during prime time, population balances out. This couldn't happen without the ability to switch realms.
I don't want Ywain DAoC, if I did I would play on Ywain. I think the relics should have bearing and I believe they will have on the alternate server were there hopefully won't be any ToA stats and stat caps, Mythyrians and all the extra uses and procs that have been added with later patches.
Population imbalance can be a factor but when I played that was self regulated by the two realms with lower population ganging up on the overpopulated realm. The problem is the bandwagoning in my opinion, that can be avoided by not allowing realm hopping. Using RP gain penalties and/or RP gain bonuses doesn't seem very effective to me. If the people playing in the zerg is infact only after RPs (as you claim) they will probably choose the biggest and strongest zerg to steam roll everything they meet and minimize the risk of being defeated.
Of course an active BG on each realm can happen without realm hopping I believe no realm hopping would create an incentive to have the best possible BG leaders to step up on each realm.
I don't see the need to lock players into a single realm. It's unnecessary. Should there be a timer? Sure. But it should be adjusted to reflect overall population. The timer could even be shorter to switch to underpopulated realms. What a novel concept...
I think the benefits from making it one realm/account would outweigh the benefits from allowing realm hopping.
Ganging up on one realm is only necessary for zergs and their respective RvR objectives which are moot for other play styles. There needs to be more than relics and DF to keep RvRvR from growing stale. But clearly nostalgia has a strong influence on your stance.
I played Hib Lancelot until the server mergers then played Alb primarily afterwards. Now I play wherever I think the action is best suited for my play style. The only thing that kept me from playing other realms during the original server era was time. I dabbled in other realms on other servers but never had the momentum to build what I needed. It took way too long without a dedicated group. I could only try other realms though because the game was popular enough to run multiple servers. It's not anymore.
Think about it. Between the unofficial and official servers, there's probably less than 4K concurrent players. People are claiming there is an untapped market for classic DAoC. We've seen what those numbers look like in the last four years. Twice. What will keep them from quitting after a month or two once the nostalgia wears off?
I won't argue the point further as I now know the driving force here. Good luck chasing the dragon.
Ganging up on one realm is only necessary for zergs and their respective RvR objectives which are moot for other play styles. There needs to be more than relics and DF to keep RvRvR from growing stale. But clearly nostalgia has a strong influence on your stance.
I don't see how it only applies on zergs, I think relics and access to DF should be made objectives in RvR again.
One under populated realm helping another under populated realm taking relics back, attacking the over populated realms groups instead of the other under populated realms groups, attacking the over populated realms zerg in the flank with your full group while that zerg is fighting the third realm are all things that spiced RvR up in my opinion.
I do not understand why allowing realm hopping would make RvR less stale. Having access to more classes is not the remedy for that.
Of course I am nostalgic, DAoC was a great game back in the day, unfortunately it has developed to crap which is one of the big reasons so few play it today.
I played Hib Lancelot until the server mergers then played Alb primarily afterwards. Now I play wherever I think the action is best suited for my play style. The only thing that kept me from playing other realms during the original server era was time. I dabbled in other realms on other servers but never had the momentum to build what I needed. It took way too long without a dedicated group. I could only try other realms though because the game was popular enough to run multiple servers. It's not anymore.
Think about it. Between the unofficial and official servers, there's probably less than 4K concurrent players. People are claiming there is an untapped market for classic DAoC. We've seen what those numbers look like in the last four years. Twice. What will keep them from quitting after a month or two once the nostalgia wears off?
I have not played the freeshards, apart from approximately 30 minutes just to check something out. I think there are more than me out there that would like to play an official server and are ready to pay a monthly fee to do so, the target group for the alternate ruleset server should not mainly be the freeshard folkes and/or the people that are already paying to play on Ywain.
@jorma here is the problem you said you have not played life sence 2013 so let me fill you in on a major problem that happened and why a realm lock (outside of 15-30 mins) is a bad thing hib at one point owned all the relics for pretty much a solid 2 months do to hero just getting then at a time when noone is on to defend or severely outnumbered becuse every plays hib because theres no one to beat them. Even on us prime time hib still outnumbered both realms 2 to 1 even when alb and midd worked together to get a relic back we both would get wiped one after another. So if you lock the reams in what mind would a hib ever decide to start over on another realm that can't even when a fight vs hibs. So more and more will just go to hibs and then it will be a 10 to 1 kind of deal. The othere night theres was 4 grps of mid 8mans out and none from the other realms now if there was a lock we would not be able to change realms to create atcion instead of just wasting our time looking for no one to kill. Who in there right mind would decide to delete there stuff because action was dlow for a night or too.
I used to be for realm pride and locking realms but now i see that i was wroung realm swaping is needed reather people like it or not.
I still very much have realm pride and its for what ever realm i currently play on
If you have not logged in the i would say to spend the 15 for one month and see for your self because right now your baseing your opinion one a problem 8 years ago
No server with realm switching has ever seen the dynamic RvR the original servers saw. It's eroded to an Esport/xrealm RP farming game on every server since.
Why keep making servers without respecting the fundamental design element that made Mythic's original servers so much more fun?
It's not a modern game...so why try to make it into one?
@Bonzki Don't forget the steep decline in population happened before realm swapping was allowed (outside multi account users of course). WoW killed the dynamic RvR we had because the population tanked.
@jorma here is the problem you said you have not played life sence 2013 so let me fill you in on a major problem that happened and why a realm lock (outside of 15-30 mins) is a bad thing hib at one point owned all the relics for pretty much a solid 2 months do to hero just getting then at a time when noone is on to defend or severely outnumbered becuse every plays hib because theres no one to beat them. Even on us prime time hib still outnumbered both realms 2 to 1 even when alb and midd worked together to get a relic back we both would get wiped one after another. So if you lock the reams in what mind would a hib ever decide to start over on another realm that can't even when a fight vs hibs. So more and more will just go to hibs and then it will be a 10 to 1 kind of deal. The othere night theres was 4 grps of mid 8mans out and none from the other realms now if there was a lock we would not be able to change realms to create atcion instead of just wasting our time looking for no one to kill. Who in there right mind would decide to delete there stuff because action was dlow for a night or too.
As I said, for a server, with such a low population as Ywain has, realm hopping might be a way to balance things out.
On the other hand if no realm hopping had been available on Ywain for that period when Hib owned all relics maybe the populations on Mid and Alb would have been higher, the players interested in taking the relics out of Hibs hands would maybe have been higher.
The "bandwagon" part of the population which played on other realms than Hib, would have had to delete and reroll Hib, if they wanted to join the Hib zerg to mow everyone down, unless they decided to start their own force on the realm they were on. So maybe the realm hopping worsened the situation.
If the alternate ruleset server attracts as few players as Ywain does, then it will be bad. I hope that server will attract more people. Only time will tell, but I think it has a good chance to do so if the ruleset is done right.
I used to be for realm pride and locking realms but now i see that i was wroung realm swaping is needed reather people like it or not.
Might be correct for low population servers which I hope the alternate server will not be. I don't think it would be beneficial for a server with a healthy population.
I still very much have realm pride and its for what ever realm i currently play on
There are those that don't play that way but rather change sides when they deem it in their, short term, favour. It is everyones choice but it is also in the developers power to make that choice harder by forcing us to delete and reroll.
If you have not logged in the i would say to spend the 15 for one month and see for your self because right now your baseing your opinion one a problem 8 years ago
I won't pay to play on Ywain to learn what is good for Ywain in the state that server is in. I don't want the alternate ruleset server to end up like Ywain, anytime soon anyway, what I am suggesting is ways to avoid that from happening.
I might be wrong in my suggestions. I want other people to challenge my ideas and to present their ideas on how to make the alternate ruleset server successful. If there is something I think sounds odd in the suggestions I will question them just as I expect to be questioned myself if my ideas are found to be odd.
1. You probably won’t even see the alternative server realized.
2. If it does materialize you have 0 say in what it looks like - just like you’ve had 0 say about the progression of Ywain. Show me the evidence to suggest you all ever get listened to on truly serious matters
Now go buy ur fake pixelated cartoon wings with moms credit card and stop pretending like you’re ever gonna leave if your instructions aren’t followed lmaoooo
Out of everyone i have tried to talk into playing this game the biggest problem was not the 15 bucks but the graphics if there was a way to modernize the graphics but still give the option for older graphics for those that still play on toasters for lack of better words we might even get some younger people to try it out as of right now the average age grp is mids 30s if im right
2. If it does materialize you have 0 say in what it looks like - just like you’ve had 0 say about the progression of Ywain. Show me the evidence to suggest you all ever get listened to on truly serious matters
I don't expect to be listened to, I just want to give the developers of the new server a chance to see what people wants from the new server, it is of course up to them to decide what they are going to do. I do not expect or demand that they will take any of the opinions expressed here into consideration when taking their decisions in developing the new server. But if no one express what they would like to see on the new server the developers would have to guess what is wished for, if people express what the want they would have something more tangible to go on. Even if they don't take anything expressed in this thread into consideration they have at least had the opportunity to take part of it, I do not see any harm in that.
Now go buy ur fake pixelated cartoon wings with moms credit card and stop pretending like you’re ever gonna leave if your instructions aren’t followed lmaoooo
I won't leave the forum until I know what they have decided to do with the alternate ruleset server, if their decisions turns out to be a ruleset that I would like to be a part of I will stay and also begin paying for four accounts when the server is up.
I won't pay until that happens though and I will stop posting on the forums if their final decision on the alternate ruleset server isn't something I want to be part of, unless they come with news regarding a plan for an additional alternate ruleset server.
2. If it does materialize you have 0 say in what it looks like - just like you’ve had 0 say about the progression of Ywain. Show me the evidence to suggest you all ever get listened to on truly serious matters
1. Doppelganger event was introduced after we asked for it in this forum.
2. Stormlord was changed after people cried about stunnuke in this forum.
3. Defending obelisk in keeps was introduced after people cried about herorius in this forum.
4. Spread, group heal was nerfed after people cried about it in this forum.
5. Classes like champ, necro, vamp were nerfed after people cried about it in this forum.
Want me to go on?
They do listen to feedback, it just takes long time in most cases.
im personnaly a very very old daoc player, and i think base game + SI is a must, without all add-ons gear.
But what i mainly think about is sub, the actual price of sub for such a game, with a server that can now run on a domestical machine that worth like 5000 USD.
you should really think of making a 4,99/month sub. you would get alots more players.
this + cosmetics shop with no pay for convenience/ P2W aspects would be a great model.
if you add like 50 premium helm/ cape or outfit (or premium guild emblem, there are plenty of options) design to sell for like 3-5 usd each and reach alot more players with a low sub, you'll make plenty of money.
you should really focus on traditional non P2W RVR game that run on potatoe PC to sell your game and reach a new population.
for the price of the machine you need to play it, DAOC is one of the best mmo you can play.
your game is not a AAA MMO anymore thats why you game dying and you don't realize it and makes it die , dont be greedy.
And the game may die because you like your safe 1000 people 12.99/month sub income, that is what is the most sad about it. (actual young players wont pay 12,99 a month for a 2001 game, if you dont have the nostalgia about the game you won't).
thats why i think i would make a ad campaign about potato best game for low sub, and then when u reach a high population youll get your income back based on cosmetics. and then the high population will generate more thread free ad about the game, and it will be a positive circle.
the main difference between the two models, is you actually stay a small niche of nostalgia versus revive the game.
If the new server focuses on building up characters for an eventual Ywain transfer (which i recently learned was a possibility) then I probably won’t even try it. Ywain just sucks. And for the people who point at the recurring failures of other servers and shards over the years and say “unlike them, Ywain is still here” you simply have no idea what you’re talking about. Before Ywain, there were clusters like Devon and before Devon there were servers like Galahad and Lancelot. Ywain is just what’s left in a long progression of player exodus. Statistically, Ywain represents the most unsuccessful version of the game that has ever existed. No one wants to play there now and practically no one does play there now. It’s analogous to like a small group of people walking around and shopping in the last Kmart and the manager, looking around with a grin, tells another nearby employee, “ha! Those idiots said this place would never last! Well we really showed them didn’t we?”
Also, the idea of attracting “new” players is a fantasy. Go show this game to any 10-20 year old you might know that’s never heard of it and doesn’t have some annoying “my uncle alpha’ed daoc before I was born” story and watch how quickly they give you the “uhh thanks but no thanks, loser” look lmao
You want to revive this game? Make a new server and forget about Ywain over time. Bring your ONLY potential customers (former players) back with an experience that’s familiar but also somewhat new. An experience that feels somewhat new for them as well as for the people from Ywain. If you make the mistake of following the orders of Ywain players they’re just going to drag you down further. I mean what does the server population have to drop to before people realize that these Ywain types are the fringe?
If the new server focuses on building up characters for an eventual Ywain transfer (which i recently learned was a possibility) then I probably won’t even try it.
It wasn't Ywain players that made the server bad, imo. However, it mostly consists of players who don't want to let go of their "progress" and others who only play during prime time when there's action. The biggest thing BS can do for the game as a whole is to release dynamic events, regardless of the server. Ywain is stale simply because there's no variety left anymore. A new server will quickly reach that state if there isn't something else to drive interest. You don't need to look far to see what works. The question is whether they are capable of doing something similar.
I haven't played DAoC for some time (10 years or so), but I, and my son, would be there on day 1 if a new server opened up. And we'd be happy to subscribe, so there are 2 new, paying customers already that the new server will bring in!
- new code base so that they stop having to work with a limiting code that prevents them from making adjustments and events on the fly. Right now there are months in between bug fixes, and almost entire years between major patches.
- New frontier design. OF has flaws, NF is too big. Something in between where you keep the better keeps from NF, the size from OF, get rid of some of the LoS nightmare that OF has (pennine mountains). Make zones available where you can fight in small towns, etc. Different points of interest, while being able to mix it up from time to time.
The ruleset is prob the least important thing to worry about. As long as
- casuals can play it
- is interesting enough for more competitive players to have fun
- has a frequent and different events
- As much QoL improvements as you can fit in the game
- Remove everything that makes this game long and dull without purpose. Example 5 sec cooldown when using the portal stone, account bank, shared plat between all characters, shared tradeskills between characters, plat transfer system, different dynamics that improve leveling, RR catch-up mechanics, etc.
- Templating and itemization is simplified
- Reduce the effect of item abilities, without removing it entirely.
well i do think that if you manage to do it well daoc can have the interest of 20-30 years old people.
But i don't think you will at 12,99/ month.
that s why i was saying potatoe game for small sub.
i enjoyed daoc much but when you have games that dont even have a sub like guild wars 2, or TESO that you can barely play without sub, im sorry but you losing alot of gamer to try your game, because your last addon was more than 10 years ago.
i really think the devs should take the risk to change their buisness model and bet on a 2-10 X multiplication of players population instead of fighting on the nostalgia niche, because nostalgia about games doesnt last that much those days.
They should focus on potatoe pc, a very solid lore inspired by true mythologies, the game being the father of a genre... quite tactical RVR and tactical positionnal pvp,a solid dynamic combo system on most class this is what they should be thinking about imo.
And all i wish is a good rebirth for daoc .
i know there will be alot of people thinking 12,99 isnt much already but for alot of people it still much, and like i say when you don't know the game its EVEN more,because you don't have the nostalagia.
and when you telling young people will laugh at you, i was not even wanting to speak about targeting 10-14 old of those days. But remember that there are alot of people playing a game like runescape that went out few ago, and even refurbished it looks like ****, so i don't think this was your best argument.
For having tried alot of games i talked about in this thread, i can say DAOC has one of the most balanced environment for pvp/RVR , and i miss that, and cant find it in any other game. and i think i tried them all.
i personnaly always convinced myself to have only 1 sub to a game at a time, and i really think alot of people do the same. And as im a normal person i think those days DAOC even took in consideration loose the fight when time of choice comes.
Think he’s sayin that the game should be promoted as one that anyone with any crap pc can play.
Idk. The conversation is always interesting for someone who would like to see a new server that’s legitimate in some capacity and not run by a bunch of snowflakes like clockwork/Uthred that just blatantly commit copyright fraud out in the open, but at the same time it’s like... broadsword needs to get its s*** together. Like make the server already or type up your resumes. Any 8th grader that’s played fortnite could come up with the same ideas they have for the last few years.
yes potatoe game is what it means, runs on shity pc, thats a pretty good argument actually we could have plenty of new players from eastern europe, turkey and stuff like that .
All we know so far is what was said in Friday Grab Bag - 22/01/2021:
We will have patch 1.128 coming out directly to Live servers early next week with several much-requested bug fixes, including the social window display issue, some new RvR quests, and more! We also have an exciting new event in the works that will tentatively launch around the 1st of March, stay tuned for the full details in the coming weeks! Lastly, and most importantly, our work continues on the alternate, "classic" ruleset server and we look forward to sharing our plans with you very soon!
@jorma I do not know one single 8 man group that chases relics. They chase fights. So they will normally go to the least populated realm. But with realm timers that has changed a little.
@jorma I do not know one single 8 man group that chases relics. They chase fights. So they will normally go to the least populated realm. But with realm timers that has changed a little.
I have not suggested that the set 8 man groups realm hop to be on the realm that has an advantage.
I do however think it is a good idea to prevent the part of the server population that chooses to swap realms, because there is a temporary advantage, from doing so.
I remember the good old times that involved socializing on the Teleport pad, waiting to go out to Emain. I also will only be interested in the classic servers if the leveling is "painfully slow", just like it was in the original game. If you want something easy just keep playing the current version of the game, and let a 50th level character mean something again.
1. SI+foundations
2. Hard level grind(as in original game)
3. Old frontiers
Please don't have them come out with a classic server, only to ask for things that aren't classic, you are dipping in the wrong Koolaide, and must remember that there are far too many games out already that have easy leveling.
I remember the good old times that involved socializing on the Teleport pad, waiting to go out to Emain. I also will only be interested in the classic servers if the leveling is "painfully slow", just like it was in the original game. If you want something easy just keep playing the current version of the game, and let a 50th level character mean something again.
1. SI+foundations
2. Hard level grind(as in original game)
3. Old frontiers
Please don't have them come out with a classic server, only to ask for things that aren't classic, you are dipping in the wrong Koolaide, and must remember that there are far too many games out already that have easy leveling.
Nah, has to be fast levelling. Even the idiots running the other server realised you need that.
What people want is the old school RVR with proper action not gaining 1 bub of XP every 2 hours. But there is a balance to be struck.
Who wants to spend months with hitting mobs.
Pull, pbae, pull, pbae, pull pbae.... wow, thats fascinating.
The game is about RvR, not about hitting mobs.
Btw they dont really call it a classic server. They call it an alternate ruleset server.
Slow leveling will not help. It will hurt as people remember why it sucked. The idea of classic is to keep the good ideas and remove as much of the bad as you can.
As for locking the realm. It can be good or bad. I play all realms. Mostly mid but as an old Mordred player I like them all. My pride was in my guild not my realm.
Want to make the game popular again will require a new engine to make the graphics updated. With some ads on popular twitch streams. Get someone that streams league of legends to say they love DAOC and play it for a few hours a day. Other than that you will get people to come back. Most will quit again as they find xxxx reason.
Painful leveling was part of the experience of some other server, which is now completely dead the second a "classic" version with a bunch of qol elements (faster leveling is one of them) arrived. Slow leveling is just dumb.
People like classic cause it's casual friendly. You play a cleric, you have like 3 spells on your bar, everything is super slow, less classes, less things to worry about.
Well if they want to care bear it, then It wont hold much population for longer then a year. Too many games that have care bear leveling i.e. the current version of the game.
Make level 50 truly mean something or there is little point, people kept begging for easier leveling on far too many games, and asking for that cookie cutter sheet wont be what you think.
People will rocket to 50 and realize that the level was just a minor "inconvenience" that might as well have been "instant 50". No point, no glory. I am just an old schooler tho, dont like the easy freebie stuff. Entering rvr as 50 at all should be an event worth of celebration.
Well if they want to care bear it, then It wont hold much population for longer then a year. Too many games that have care bear leveling i.e. the current version of the game.
Make level 50 truly mean something or there is little point, people kept begging for easier leveling on far too many games, and asking for that cookie cutter sheet wont be what you think.
People will rocket to 50 and realize that the level was just a minor "inconvenience" that might as well have been "instant 50". No point, no glory. I am just an old schooler tho, dont like the easy freebie stuff. Entering rvr as 50 at all should be an event worth of celebration.
Leveling in DAoC serves one primary purpose (even today): it allows the few new players to learn their class and game mechanics while providing opportunities to test them out in small scale RvR (i.e. Battlegrounds). It was only an "achievement" to reach 50 near release when the game was new. It quickly became a time-sink, hence the requests for making leveling easier. The goal for most players was (and still is) to reach 50 quickly so they could RvR as that's the appeal to DAoC. There are countless games still around where you can grind XP to your hearts desire. However, there are no games that have the unique PvP system (RvR) like DAoC has.
While I understand the nostalgia crowd is literally chasing the good 'ol times, they are gone. It's time to make new memories, not relive old ones. The classic ruleset doesn't have to be grindy. It can be simple as I've eluded to before. Fewer classes, abilities, and uncomplicated templates is attractive to a larger playerbase. That is what Broadsword will likely focus on: a broader appeal. My major concern is the lack of dynamics events to keep the game from becoming stale. We can't expect to see expansion level content ever again for DAoC to keep it interesting. Time will tell what they plan to do (if anything at all).
Frankly, I would want them to burn the existing code base to the ground and modernize. The game is held back too much by decaying code. A new server is the perfect excuse to fix some of the more severe code issues that plague the game.
Comments
You provided another reason for realm hopping, the most common one for casual players on Ywain according to you, and I explained my view on that as well. I will quote that part again, for the second time, giving you a third chance to read it.
You seem to think realm pride is something bad, I do not. I think it is something to aspire to.
Red is dead exists on Ywain aswell, it did when I played there at least, I stopped playing 2013 so things might have changed. I suppose everyone knows everyone on Ywain at this point.
Realm pride is not about being disrespectful to the players on the other realms, there were unwritten rules of how to behave 2002- forward, those that broke against the rules could not count on being treated with respect and those that followed the rules were treated with respect by most.
It is the delevopers that take care of the balancing. Players that did not learn about the classes the other realms have access to put them selves at a disadvantage, you were forced to learn what the enemy could do to do well yourself.
I think relics are a nice part of RvR, some changes would be good but the general idea is nice in my opinion.
Access to DF is also an objective, I liked the action that happened in there when the access changed realms.
I do not see how realm pride would hinder 8 vs. 8, smallman vs. smallman or solo vs. solo. 2001-2004 big zergs in the frontiers were mostly a thing when there was a relic raid going on. I ran in 8 man group most of the time and there were many more 8 man groups running at the same time from all realms, very rarely was there a zerg running, could meet one once in a while.
To avoid the game becoming stale or completely one sided is in big part the server populations objective. If one realm becomes boring, just delete and reroll another if there is just one server available. Allowing realm hopping seems to me to be a way to make it one sided, abandon the disadvantaged realm till the few that wants to make the effort to remove the disadvantage has been able to do so.
As it stands, Ywain has zero objectives left on a RvRvR basis. DF is accessible regardless of realm ownership and generally only has macro teams inside. There are few to no XP groups as it's extremely fast to reach 50 solo (sub 10 hours) without DF. Consequently, Ywain end game is primarily focused on PvP whether it be zerg vs. zerg, 8v8, 1v1, etc.
You use the term "disadvantaged" realm a lot to justify your stance on realm locking. I don't see any way for a realm to be disadvantaged over another other than via population imbalance (relics are a non-issue in modern DAoC). How can population imbalance be corrected if players are locked into one realm? The ability to switch realms actually helps in this regard. It also can hurt when players bandwagon, but that can be discouraged by the developers through bonuses or penalties depending on what they choose. The competitive crowd will always balance itself out. They want fights. The casual crowd is more susceptible to bandwagon, typically in zergs. These players are focused on RPs rather than fights. However, as long as there's an active BG up on each realm during prime time, population balances out. This couldn't happen without the ability to switch realms.
I don't see the need to lock players into a single realm. It's unnecessary. Should there be a timer? Sure. But it should be adjusted to reflect overall population. The timer could even be shorter to switch to underpopulated realms. What a novel concept...
Edit: since you played 8v8 regularly, how exactly did realm swapping hurt your play style?
I think the choice to make DF accessable to the realm that owned most keeps (OF) or keeps+towers (NF) was good, created a fun RvR parameter to DF. I would not like it if that RvR objective was removed on the alternate ruleset server.
I hope the leveling speed on the new server will be a bit slower on the alternate ruleset server, make power leveling harder (making the xp/mob for the low level characters lower). I don't want it to be as slow as it was on original servers though but not as quick as it is on Ywain.
End game should be focused on RvR, but the way it sounds like it is on Ywain does not sound alluring to me.
I don't want Ywain DAoC, if I did I would play on Ywain. I think the relics should have bearing and I believe they will have on the alternate server were there hopefully won't be any ToA stats and stat caps, Mythyrians and all the extra uses and procs that have been added with later patches.
Population imbalance can be a factor but when I played that was self regulated by the two realms with lower population ganging up on the overpopulated realm. The problem is the bandwagoning in my opinion, that can be avoided by not allowing realm hopping. Using RP gain penalties and/or RP gain bonuses doesn't seem very effective to me. If the people playing in the zerg is infact only after RPs (as you claim) they will probably choose the biggest and strongest zerg to steam roll everything they meet and minimize the risk of being defeated.
Of course an active BG on each realm can happen without realm hopping I believe no realm hopping would create an incentive to have the best possible BG leaders to step up on each realm.
I think the benefits from making it one realm/account would outweigh the benefits from allowing realm hopping.
It wasn't allowed. It was one realm/account back then.
I played Hib Lancelot until the server mergers then played Alb primarily afterwards. Now I play wherever I think the action is best suited for my play style. The only thing that kept me from playing other realms during the original server era was time. I dabbled in other realms on other servers but never had the momentum to build what I needed. It took way too long without a dedicated group. I could only try other realms though because the game was popular enough to run multiple servers. It's not anymore.
Think about it. Between the unofficial and official servers, there's probably less than 4K concurrent players. People are claiming there is an untapped market for classic DAoC. We've seen what those numbers look like in the last four years. Twice. What will keep them from quitting after a month or two once the nostalgia wears off?
I won't argue the point further as I now know the driving force here. Good luck chasing the dragon.
One under populated realm helping another under populated realm taking relics back, attacking the over populated realms groups instead of the other under populated realms groups, attacking the over populated realms zerg in the flank with your full group while that zerg is fighting the third realm are all things that spiced RvR up in my opinion.
I do not understand why allowing realm hopping would make RvR less stale. Having access to more classes is not the remedy for that.
Of course I am nostalgic, DAoC was a great game back in the day, unfortunately it has developed to crap which is one of the big reasons so few play it today.
I have not played the freeshards, apart from approximately 30 minutes just to check something out. I think there are more than me out there that would like to play an official server and are ready to pay a monthly fee to do so, the target group for the alternate ruleset server should not mainly be the freeshard folkes and/or the people that are already paying to play on Ywain.
See you around.
I used to be for realm pride and locking realms but now i see that i was wroung realm swaping is needed reather people like it or not.
I still very much have realm pride and its for what ever realm i currently play on
If you have not logged in the i would say to spend the 15 for one month and see for your self because right now your baseing your opinion one a problem 8 years ago
Why keep making servers without respecting the fundamental design element that made Mythic's original servers so much more fun?
It's not a modern game...so why try to make it into one?
Edit: I'll leave you this relic from the past.
https://www.ignboards.com/threads/merge-servers.250443632/
On the other hand if no realm hopping had been available on Ywain for that period when Hib owned all relics maybe the populations on Mid and Alb would have been higher, the players interested in taking the relics out of Hibs hands would maybe have been higher.
The "bandwagon" part of the population which played on other realms than Hib, would have had to delete and reroll Hib, if they wanted to join the Hib zerg to mow everyone down, unless they decided to start their own force on the realm they were on. So maybe the realm hopping worsened the situation.
If the alternate ruleset server attracts as few players as Ywain does, then it will be bad. I hope that server will attract more people. Only time will tell, but I think it has a good chance to do so if the ruleset is done right.
Might be correct for low population servers which I hope the alternate server will not be. I don't think it would be beneficial for a server with a healthy population.
There are those that don't play that way but rather change sides when they deem it in their, short term, favour. It is everyones choice but it is also in the developers power to make that choice harder by forcing us to delete and reroll.
I won't pay to play on Ywain to learn what is good for Ywain in the state that server is in. I don't want the alternate ruleset server to end up like Ywain, anytime soon anyway, what I am suggesting is ways to avoid that from happening.
I might be wrong in my suggestions. I want other people to challenge my ideas and to present their ideas on how to make the alternate ruleset server successful. If there is something I think sounds odd in the suggestions I will question them just as I expect to be questioned myself if my ideas are found to be odd.
1. You probably won’t even see the alternative server realized.
2. If it does materialize you have 0 say in what it looks like - just like you’ve had 0 say about the progression of Ywain. Show me the evidence to suggest you all ever get listened to on truly serious matters
Now go buy ur fake pixelated cartoon wings with moms credit card and stop pretending like you’re ever gonna leave if your instructions aren’t followed lmaoooo
I don't expect to be listened to, I just want to give the developers of the new server a chance to see what people wants from the new server, it is of course up to them to decide what they are going to do. I do not expect or demand that they will take any of the opinions expressed here into consideration when taking their decisions in developing the new server. But if no one express what they would like to see on the new server the developers would have to guess what is wished for, if people express what the want they would have something more tangible to go on. Even if they don't take anything expressed in this thread into consideration they have at least had the opportunity to take part of it, I do not see any harm in that.
I won't leave the forum until I know what they have decided to do with the alternate ruleset server, if their decisions turns out to be a ruleset that I would like to be a part of I will stay and also begin paying for four accounts when the server is up.
I won't pay until that happens though and I will stop posting on the forums if their final decision on the alternate ruleset server isn't something I want to be part of, unless they come with news regarding a plan for an additional alternate ruleset server.
1. Doppelganger event was introduced after we asked for it in this forum.
2. Stormlord was changed after people cried about stunnuke in this forum.
3. Defending obelisk in keeps was introduced after people cried about herorius in this forum.
4. Spread, group heal was nerfed after people cried about it in this forum.
5. Classes like champ, necro, vamp were nerfed after people cried about it in this forum.
Want me to go on?
They do listen to feedback, it just takes long time in most cases.
But what i mainly think about is sub, the actual price of sub for such a game, with a server that can now run on a domestical machine that worth like 5000 USD.
you should really think of making a 4,99/month sub. you would get alots more players.
this + cosmetics shop with no pay for convenience/ P2W aspects would be a great model.
if you add like 50 premium helm/ cape or outfit (or premium guild emblem, there are plenty of options) design to sell for like 3-5 usd each and reach alot more players with a low sub, you'll make plenty of money.
you should really focus on traditional non P2W RVR game that run on potatoe PC to sell your game and reach a new population.
for the price of the machine you need to play it, DAOC is one of the best mmo you can play.
And the game may die because you like your safe 1000 people 12.99/month sub income, that is what is the most sad about it. (actual young players wont pay 12,99 a month for a 2001 game, if you dont have the nostalgia about the game you won't).
thats why i think i would make a ad campaign about potato best game for low sub, and then when u reach a high population youll get your income back based on cosmetics. and then the high population will generate more thread free ad about the game, and it will be a positive circle.
the main difference between the two models, is you actually stay a small niche of nostalgia versus revive the game.
Also, the idea of attracting “new” players is a fantasy. Go show this game to any 10-20 year old you might know that’s never heard of it and doesn’t have some annoying “my uncle alpha’ed daoc before I was born” story and watch how quickly they give you the “uhh thanks but no thanks, loser” look lmao
You want to revive this game? Make a new server and forget about Ywain over time. Bring your ONLY potential customers (former players) back with an experience that’s familiar but also somewhat new. An experience that feels somewhat new for them as well as for the people from Ywain. If you make the mistake of following the orders of Ywain players they’re just going to drag you down further. I mean what does the server population have to drop to before people realize that these Ywain types are the fringe?
- new code base so that they stop having to work with a limiting code that prevents them from making adjustments and events on the fly. Right now there are months in between bug fixes, and almost entire years between major patches.
- New frontier design. OF has flaws, NF is too big. Something in between where you keep the better keeps from NF, the size from OF, get rid of some of the LoS nightmare that OF has (pennine mountains). Make zones available where you can fight in small towns, etc. Different points of interest, while being able to mix it up from time to time.
The ruleset is prob the least important thing to worry about. As long as
- casuals can play it
- is interesting enough for more competitive players to have fun
- has a frequent and different events
- As much QoL improvements as you can fit in the game
- Remove everything that makes this game long and dull without purpose. Example 5 sec cooldown when using the portal stone, account bank, shared plat between all characters, shared tradeskills between characters, plat transfer system, different dynamics that improve leveling, RR catch-up mechanics, etc.
- Templating and itemization is simplified
- Reduce the effect of item abilities, without removing it entirely.
But i don't think you will at 12,99/ month.
that s why i was saying potatoe game for small sub.
i enjoyed daoc much but when you have games that dont even have a sub like guild wars 2, or TESO that you can barely play without sub, im sorry but you losing alot of gamer to try your game, because your last addon was more than 10 years ago.
i really think the devs should take the risk to change their buisness model and bet on a 2-10 X multiplication of players population instead of fighting on the nostalgia niche, because nostalgia about games doesnt last that much those days.
They should focus on potatoe pc, a very solid lore inspired by true mythologies, the game being the father of a genre... quite tactical RVR and tactical positionnal pvp,a solid dynamic combo system on most class this is what they should be thinking about imo.
And all i wish is a good rebirth for daoc .
i know there will be alot of people thinking 12,99 isnt much already but for alot of people it still much, and like i say when you don't know the game its EVEN more,because you don't have the nostalagia.
and when you telling young people will laugh at you, i was not even wanting to speak about targeting 10-14 old of those days. But remember that there are alot of people playing a game like runescape that went out few ago, and even refurbished it looks like ****, so i don't think this was your best argument.
For having tried alot of games i talked about in this thread, i can say DAOC has one of the most balanced environment for pvp/RVR , and i miss that, and cant find it in any other game. and i think i tried them all.
i personnaly always convinced myself to have only 1 sub to a game at a time, and i really think alot of people do the same. And as im a normal person i think those days DAOC even took in consideration loose the fight when time of choice comes.
Idk. The conversation is always interesting for someone who would like to see a new server that’s legitimate in some capacity and not run by a bunch of snowflakes like clockwork/Uthred that just blatantly commit copyright fraud out in the open, but at the same time it’s like... broadsword needs to get its s*** together. Like make the server already or type up your resumes. Any 8th grader that’s played fortnite could come up with the same ideas they have for the last few years.
We will have patch 1.128 coming out directly to Live servers early next week with several much-requested bug fixes, including the social window display issue, some new RvR quests, and more! We also have an exciting new event in the works that will tentatively launch around the 1st of March, stay tuned for the full details in the coming weeks! Lastly, and most importantly, our work continues on the alternate, "classic" ruleset server and we look forward to sharing our plans with you very soon!
I do however think it is a good idea to prevent the part of the server population that chooses to swap realms, because there is a temporary advantage, from doing so.
1. SI+foundations
2. Hard level grind(as in original game)
3. Old frontiers
Please don't have them come out with a classic server, only to ask for things that aren't classic, you are dipping in the wrong Koolaide, and must remember that there are far too many games out already that have easy leveling.
Nah, has to be fast levelling. Even the idiots running the other server realised you need that.
What people want is the old school RVR with proper action not gaining 1 bub of XP every 2 hours. But there is a balance to be struck.
Pull, pbae, pull, pbae, pull pbae.... wow, thats fascinating.
The game is about RvR, not about hitting mobs.
Btw they dont really call it a classic server. They call it an alternate ruleset server.
As for locking the realm. It can be good or bad. I play all realms. Mostly mid but as an old Mordred player I like them all. My pride was in my guild not my realm.
Want to make the game popular again will require a new engine to make the graphics updated. With some ads on popular twitch streams. Get someone that streams league of legends to say they love DAOC and play it for a few hours a day. Other than that you will get people to come back. Most will quit again as they find xxxx reason.
People like classic cause it's casual friendly. You play a cleric, you have like 3 spells on your bar, everything is super slow, less classes, less things to worry about.
Yes, but the word classic is in quotation marks...no idea what this means.
Make level 50 truly mean something or there is little point, people kept begging for easier leveling on far too many games, and asking for that cookie cutter sheet wont be what you think.
People will rocket to 50 and realize that the level was just a minor "inconvenience" that might as well have been "instant 50". No point, no glory. I am just an old schooler tho, dont like the easy freebie stuff. Entering rvr as 50 at all should be an event worth of celebration.
Leveling in DAoC serves one primary purpose (even today): it allows the few new players to learn their class and game mechanics while providing opportunities to test them out in small scale RvR (i.e. Battlegrounds). It was only an "achievement" to reach 50 near release when the game was new. It quickly became a time-sink, hence the requests for making leveling easier. The goal for most players was (and still is) to reach 50 quickly so they could RvR as that's the appeal to DAoC. There are countless games still around where you can grind XP to your hearts desire. However, there are no games that have the unique PvP system (RvR) like DAoC has.
While I understand the nostalgia crowd is literally chasing the good 'ol times, they are gone. It's time to make new memories, not relive old ones. The classic ruleset doesn't have to be grindy. It can be simple as I've eluded to before. Fewer classes, abilities, and uncomplicated templates is attractive to a larger playerbase. That is what Broadsword will likely focus on: a broader appeal. My major concern is the lack of dynamics events to keep the game from becoming stale. We can't expect to see expansion level content ever again for DAoC to keep it interesting. Time will tell what they plan to do (if anything at all).