Keep and Relic Adjustment Live Notes

Relic Guard Dynamic Scaling
  • Based on feedback and in an effort to make keeps and a small number of relics easier to defend for outnumbered populations as well as to reduce the difficulty of attacking realms that hold 5+ relics, all Elite Relic guards, relic temple guards, and the normal but high-purple con "Elder" guards will now scale their difficulty up and down depending on how many relics a realm holds.
    • Realms only holding 0-1 relics will see the highest difficulty guards defending their realms keeps and relic temples.
    • Realms with 2 relics will see little to no change from current guard difficulties.
    • Realms holding 3 or 4 relics will have slightly less powerful but still red-purple guards defending their keeps and relic temples.
    • Realms holding 5 or more relics will have significantly less powerful, orange-red guards defending their keeps and relic temples.
  • Currently the number of guards spawned will not change but this is another lever we can investigate if the above changes do not go far enough in addressing these concerns.

Climbing-Spikes adjustment
  • Based on feedback and in an effort to allow other class archetypes room to shine in keep sieges, the following changes have been made to heavy tank climbing spikes:
    • Hero, Warrior, and Armsmans' climbing spikes ability has had its cooldown increased from 60 seconds to 3 minutes.
    • Additionally, a new debuff lasting 45 seconds is fired when climbing-spikes is initiated that increases damage the Hero, Warrior, or Armsman takes by 15% from all sources.

Protection Obelisk and Keep Upgrade System
  • A new system's first pass has been implemented that will enable players to upgrade specific aspects of a specific keep to better tailor its defense as well as to get more use out of keeps their realm owns.
  • Each feature will be added individually so that game and siege balance can be observed with these new dynamics one at a time.
  • Keep Upgrades will be purchasable at the new Master Stone Mason NPC to the left of the staircase in each realm's inner keep.
    • Please note that this feature is only available in New Frontier keeps and is not available in any tower or Knoc Meayll's keep.
  • The first keep upgrade available is a Protection Obelisk that can be purchased for bounty points.
    • This obelisk spawns to the right of the staircase on the main floor of the inner keep.
    • When the Protection Obelisk is spawned, keep defenders can right-click their keep lord to receive a significant damage reduction buff so long as they stay in the inner keep's lord room or roof area.
      • Leaving those areas will result in the buff being removed though players can simply revisit their lord to get the buff again.
      • Like relic guards, the effectiveness of this buff will scale based on the number of relics your realm owns.
        • Realms with 5+ relics cannot obtain this buff.
        • Realms with 3-4 relics receive a 25% damage reduction buff when staying within the lord room or keep roof areas.
        • Realms with 2 relics receive a 50% damage reduction buff when staying within the lord room or keep roof areas.
        • Realms with 0-1 relics receive a 75% damage reduction buff when staying within the lord room or keep roof areas.
      • The aim of this upgrade is to improve the ability for defenders stuck inside the inner keep to take more risks and be less fearful of attacks by attackers in the courtyard.
      • Additionally, we hope to see more dynamic battles in and around the 1st floor of the inner keep as enemy realms will want to destroy the Protection Obelisk before advancing into the lord room and facing significant damage reduction buffs on their enemies while defenders will want to maintain this advantage.
    • We very much look forward to observing how this first upgrade fares and what new tactics we may see out in the Frontiers!
      • There are several other additional keep upgrades being discussed as well as more ways to redeem the upgrades - by completing myriad gathering quests around the frontier - so stay tuned!

    Relic and Keep Reset

    All of the above notes are now live but in order to facilitate these new changes and dynamics all keeps and relics will be reverted to their default state at 11 AM EST / 4 PM GMT tomorrow, December 18th.
DAoC Community Lead
Broadsword Online Games
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Comments

  • Can we add an upgrade that allows oil points to be put up all around the keep? So healers can't cluster and spam base heals endlessly? Sounds great, thank you.
  • edited December 2020 PM
    Can we also add a feature to make Power Leak based off of relics? Less of a reduction in power for more relics owned? Another possible change is to make it so endurance chants/pulses don't work for XX amount of time on a character after power leak use?
    Post edited by Daelin on
  • Taking away climb points on the inner oil would help as well.
    Dreamscape 12Lx Dark Lotus
  • Love it!! We will defend out keeps forever or at least till lunch when we need to break for a nap.



    0872fccesmhi.jpg
    Bumblebunny to the rescue !
  • i wonder if yesterday will be the last time we've ever seen a keep take ...
    Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • for 50k bps.... does it affect only the player who buys it? the group? the defenders in the inner? That is a lot of bps to shell out for a one and done buff thats over in less than 10 mins at most.
  • Bowatg wrote: »
    for 50k bps.... does it affect only the player who buys it? the group? the defenders in the inner? That is a lot of bps to shell out for a one and done buff thats over in less than 10 mins at most.

    it only lasts 10 minutes???
  • no,
    Bowatg wrote: »
    for 50k bps.... does it affect only the player who buys it? the group? the defenders in the inner? That is a lot of bps to shell out for a one and done buff thats over in less than 10 mins at most.

    it's for every defender who comes and clicks on the lord after the buff is purchased by someone.
    Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • edited December 2020 PM
    47el wrote: »
    Bowatg wrote: »
    for 50k bps.... does it affect only the player who buys it? the group? the defenders in the inner? That is a lot of bps to shell out for a one and done buff thats over in less than 10 mins at most.

    it only lasts 10 minutes???

    i guess bowatg means that the siege will last 10 minutes, not that the buff lasts 10 minutes. the pillar that makes that the lord gives that buffs stays until the pillar is destroyed or the keep is taken.
    Post edited by Muylae on
    Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • exactly Muy.. thanks for clarifying that for all :)
  • The buff is a good idea but restricting it to central keep is dumb should cover courtyard and oil level just means people wil sit in inner keep like dummies.
  • edited December 2020 PM
    Brut wrote: »
    The buff is a good idea but restricting it to central keep is dumb should cover courtyard and oil level just means people wil sit in inner keep like dummies.

    well today we had two siege fights, first one we lost massively because we thought we would defend the lord room, but when hibs took the bottom floor they destroyed the pillar and we lost the buff and they they came up and rofl stomped us. second siege my strategy was to fight on the bottom floor and defend the bottom floor at all cost and we had one of the biggest and longest fights on the bottom floor of the CK in ages and we ended up winning.

    i had a lot of doubt about the new system and it might still need a little bit of tweaking, but from the little experience i've had with it today it seems to work. it certainly seems to motivate people more to go and defend ... which is a big thing.

    the 'meta' has changed and new strategies are needed.
    Post edited by Muylae on
    Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • The problem I see with this is that if hibs capture a keep out of hours a very small hib force will be able to hold the keep against much greater numbers.
    1 irc group could hold a alb or mid Zerg off with this I can see it ending in tears
  • It is something that every realm gets yes, adding something to 2 realms and not the 3rd along these lines is not something we'd ever do.
    DAoC Community Lead
    Broadsword Online Games
  • edited December 2020 PM
    Brut wrote: »
    The problem I see with this is that if hibs capture a keep out of hours a very small hib force will be able to hold the keep against much greater numbers.
    1 irc group could hold a alb or mid Zerg off with this I can see it ending in tears

    hm... a lot of questions remain at this moment. so far my bg has defended two keeps and we've retaken one keep. the hibs have always been able to decimate the people on the roof of the CK with impunity and they certainly have not been able to do this anymore to the same degree. being on the roof of a CK always felt a bit like being ... shot at like fish in a barrel... when defending against hibs. if hibs had l.o.s. on one of our casters for like one second, that caster ... stun-nuke-nuke dead. that doesn't go so easy anymore. it's a big difference. i'm sure our casters like that change and i'm sure the hibs are very disturbed by that change. i would need a lot more keep fights to be able to pass a fair judgement about whether that change is good or if it's a too big change ... i can't tell atm. maybe they need to change the percentage from 25, 50, 75 to 20 - 40 - 60 or maybe to 15 - 30 - 45... i can't pass judgement on that YET.

    you mention irc (or equivalent) defending a keep against far greater number ... i'm not sure if they can. my experience is that if an elite group of hibs defends a keep, they win by actually coming out of the keep or out of the CK, and killing people around the keep or in the courtyard, not by turtling inside of the keep/ck....

    it would be an interesting question to see if the irc (or equivalent), when on the offensive vs a keep, can actually kill people on the roof from a CK with casters.

    the fight for a CK has changed ... to some degree. the deciding phase seems to have switched from a fight for the lord room to a fight for the bottom floor. but the abs buff doesn't reach to the bottom floor and the balcony.

    for now, i'll just reserve judgment until i've got more experience with the new system. i'm pretty sure the new system isn't at it's final version yet.eems to have switched from a fight for the lord room to a fight for the bottom floor. but the abs buff doesn't

    Post edited by Muylae on
    Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • It is a difficult formula to work out. Both Defenders and Attackers must believe that they can win or they will not try. At the same time, it is hard to make sure that one side doesn't get such an advantage that they always win. Maybe the zergs will do more roaming fights :)




    6kgovx4kw9tr.jpg




    Bumblebunny to the rescue !
  • Looks like hero is not attacking keeps anymore. He lost 2 times and now its over for him. LuL
  • Today was a good saturday. I had access to port/keeps all day. I am not used to that on a Saturday. Ty for these changes.
  • The only issue I see is if Hero finds taking keep too hard he'll start roaming EV again, which will.start hurting other playstyles imo.

    It's a tough balance to strike. Ideally BS will come out with a new RP calculation that heavily nerfs RPs gained when zerging people down. This way zergs can focus on keep fights and fighting other BGs.
  • I think the buff needs to be reduced to 0% if 3-6 relics, 10% if 2, 15% if 1, and 20%. It's crazy at 50%. I had a 40 buff sham keep a caster up on a 5 hib caster assist. Naturally something that one sided meant the hibs haven't tried attacking since then.

    10% damage absorb gives people a chance to survive vs one caster. You should still have to play the game and if the attacking realm has no chance to assist debuff kill then there's no rp incentive to attack.

    Then you have people sitting around doing nothing because they can't go to the action the other realm created.
  • edited December 2020 PM
    i am getting so much feedback from players that the 'standard' 50 % abs feedback is too much... maybe BS should consider lowering the 50 % abs to a bit lower, maybe 20-40-60 or 15-30-45 instead of the current 25-50-75 %.

    i understand it was to made defender on the roof a bit less vulnerable, but from the feedback i get, attackers find it way to high.

    i understand that the current values are not final and that we maybe have to play around with these values and we might have to try a few different values before we find a level that's 'just right'.
    Post edited by Muylae on
    Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Keeps are great because they can create action/rp/resets over time without having to find the fight again, so we want both sides to want a keep fight.

    Right now (and even before the patch) albs would hole up in the keep praying someone attacks so they can get rp defending, but wouldn't go attack anything.

    On Hib attacking alb was always questionable, depending on if you can get enough tanks. (personal opinion is that the 15% damage increase vs tanks is too much, removing the ability climb every minute was enough of a deterrent as it is). On Mid they don't attack albs and didn't before the patch if they have reasonable numbers, it just never ends well. (Super debuff groups just wreck mids).

    On Mid, they can sometimes field a defense, sometimes not. Now Hibs are unwilling to attack so its moot.

    On Hib, they are the realm most likely to attack keeps but traditionally (over the last few years) only so far as its a decent shot at a win (and that's being generous). Nobody attacks hib port keeps unless there are crazy underpop numbers (70-100%) and there's still a 50+ man BG that wants to do so. That was rare pre- patch on both mid/alb.

    The RP Chasing crowd. You can log in to keeps under siege (easier to get rp) which this change could exacerbate. More so, the leet-ish debuff/assisting crowd can clean up. Right now the number game is the only thing keeping them from wiping whole zergs in keep defense. Giving them a 50% damage absorb is probably enough to let their debuff train not die while assisting down a zerg from on high.

    So i see this as a very tentative balance. It needs to be beneficial to attack and defend and normal keep bonuses only do so much (since you only get rp if you get kills based off of those.

    Things that may carefully help to achieve this balance without bringing terrible alignment issues:

    1) A base participation bonus for defense/take regardless of rp for port keeps (not
    surs/eras/berk/crim/ddb/bolg/blend/hlid/nott). Enough where you have casuals wanting the zerg leader to take keeps and willing to die/take 20-30 minutes in the process. For those arguing its free rps; it creates action and more action than say running out and slaying 5 dopples.
    2) Reduction in absorbtion to something like 10-15%. More and attackers wont get kills while taking the gate down and will likely die in the process. Less and maybe they don't defend because no chance of sticking their heads out vs even a one caster stun dd.
    3) I'd argue relics become less then meaningless with this weighting. Id keep it based of relics but add a 3% RP bonus per relic owned.
  • edited December 2020 PM
    So far changes have been pretty good hero ‘who just wants action and doesn’t care if he dies ‘has been strangely reluctant to Attack any keeps today.
    On the opposite side mid and alb took 3 keeps between them.
    I’ve even heard that hero is refusing to hit keeps because of the tank climbing changes.
    This I find pretty stupid the effect when climbing spikes is Triggered lasts 45 seconds
    If you had a brain you could see a way around that problem It’s not a biggie.
    The debuff only covers the inner keep so it doesn’t restrict hibs to fighting in the courtyard
    I mean you guys want action don’t you your leader constantly says he does I really can’t see your problem or do you want easy keel takes .
    If broadsword revert these changes which I fully expect then to it will because of the hib zerg and it’s leader which kinda illustrates who they listen to.
    On the other hand this could be a game changer For Daoc maybe we can revert back to the days when keeps were taken purely to get a port or to get a relic.
    We really don’t care if hero roams around ev or anywhere else we can trap him voltron him and just avoid him it’s not a problem to most albs we have been doing it for years.
    I expect hero will change tactics I can see several ways around the changes if he’s a good leader he will adapt.
    He’s been taking keeps for years and his Zerg has grown into a very wierd social club that does the same stufff day in day out they love it but the rest of game hates his daily antics .
    The only action he creates is action on a one sided basis the game has become stale his Zerg has become stale it’s like a collection of stepford wives running around roboticaly following a German cow it really is very wierd.
    As for action we had the best action we have had for years fights all over the map.
    It’s hilarious to here hibs complain about balance issues and alignment when we have put up with this crap for years.
    All I will say to hibs and your fuhrer is this you created this now deal with it.
    Post edited by Brut on
  • It's not about the debuff of climbing.
    But that in the caster assist of 20 people, you can no longer get a cloth carrier down because of the obelisk.
    Or that Fumbelstürme be placed on the obelisk.
    Likewise, if you have relics, you will be punished.
    The patsh is just sick.
    sry for my google english
  • I had a day of hero not attacking the keeps, Everytime alb/mid took a tower he would take the tower back.

    Action was kind of weird, seems lots sitting in cks taking tower back then running back to ck, tower going rinse and repeat.

    Early days yet. But i feel less inclinded to log in atm, maybe its the changes dunno I thought daoc was like sandbox pvp mmorpg and when enforced changes are made kind of feels a bit meh.
    For me realm switching is the bigger problem, when you see massive population swings soon as hero bg starts or when hero is in alb , mid is on 70% then hero goes mid and then alb in on 70% maybe this will change with patch, time will tell.



  • People think it's people switching realms when in reality it's probably people logging in when he logs off
  • People think it's people switching realms when in reality it's probably people logging in when he logs off

    Just keep in mind the game probably can't sustain itself if its just an 8v8 playground and everyone else gets decimated. There isn't a group out there right now who doesn't roll solo spots looking for solo/small groups to kill. The world where everyone just wants the zerg to log off is probably not accurate, either, as many of us find that time as a great time to avoid 8man grief.
  • edited December 2020 PM
    Now Mr @Brut - you of all people should know not to believe rumors, whispers and stories told from other people :)



    itk8xmxrhcdc.jpg
    Post edited by Siambra on
    Bumblebunny to the rescue !
  • 813wfv3r7a23.png
    I suggest Herorius and the rest of hib give this game a go. You can take all the keeps you want.
  • I think the dmg reduction is too much. 75% is nearly immortal. Maybe something like 25% for 2 relics would make sense.
  • think the change is a homerun or at least a triple :)
    and has any relics even been taken to see if the 75 is to much ....
  • Alus wrote: »
    813wfv3r7a23.png
    I suggest Herorius and the rest of hib give this game a go. You can take all the keeps you want.

    By far one of my favorite games as a child.
  • I like the idea of the but i too think the delves should be looked at again and mabe lowered some as attackers should still be able assist and kill people on the if they are assisting and debuff but i dont know waht the effects the higher delves are because sofar everyone has had there own relics
  • 15% normal, 25% if you have no relics, tops. Otherwise taking relics is counterproductive and you might even get people logging on a different realm to take their own relics for a better bonus. People have already talked about doing that in region (whether they mean it or not).

    Also the protection obelisk needs to suffer massive damage to caster damage or something, after doing this some that's the other half of why keeps are broken. The obelisk works for casters up on the balcony by stairs so they can rain down chaos on any tanks attacking it (and casters attacking it have to enter the keep). It should really be killable in a minute of focused effort.
  • yea--make the obelisk like the realm timers---there but worthless lol
  • edited December 2020 PM
    Been in a couple of fights and it's been interesting to see different realm approaches. Cant see anyone insane enough to go take relics though. Your anti incented to do so, seems silly as its 180' opposite of what relics used to be for.

    Work in progress.
    Post edited by Tesc on
  • edited December 2020 PM
    hk8qfi31mqhy.gif
    Can we please stop with the bunny pics ? They have nothing to do with DAOC.
    Post edited by Alus on
  • zloxauamqfhg.jpg
    getting ready for gem quest again
  • ocdqpd8daus6.jpg
    maybe its time we added upgrades to heal pots like actual food or drink.
  • Didn't you hear? The next caster improvement is bunnies with flower crowns whose furry bunny tails give them extra power !!


    t8hafzvamq0s.jpg


    Bumblebunny to the rescue !
  • Now that we've had these changes for some time and have been able to evaluate the effects better, we can talk a bit more about it.

    Having been in more than a few keep defences, It's my opinion that the obelisk's abs buff has very rarely been a deciding factor in the outcome of a siege. Does it have an effect, sure, but a deciding factor ? Hardly in my opinion.

    discuss.
    Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • There was a brilliant 3 way fight at Glenlock the other night that was just great fun.

    More of that please :)
  • The Glenlock 3.5 hour fight only worked because nobody was trying to take the inner. It had nothing to do with the new game mechanics.

    The issue now is that with a well defended keep you still get the buff on the first part of the balcony from the stairs to the lord room, and the obby is super hard to kill. So, casters just rain down assists with their half damage absorb and how do you get past that. Buffs should be 25% max and stop at the lord room door- i agree with that, and the obelisk should be killable in short order.
  • That was a great fight. I know Amurr was asking if anyone had video afterwards:) Partially because everyone was able to get some action/realm points over such an intense fight and each realm had a safe zone mids- inner/CY, Hibs-oil platform/roof, albs-outside and one of the keep towers.

    I haven't seen a defended keep take over the last few weeks where the defenders had half or more of the (usually hib) realm. Usually the keep takes you see are one sided slaughters where they just ignore the obelisk, and if not, everyone dies when they open the door and try to take the obelisk or push in without. With these levels what it does is discourage even fights. I think we should try to incentivize even fights just as this is trying to incentivize people to show up to begin with. Attacking a keep is one of the few ways to create action when you are the larger zerg because people have the potential for safety for a bit. Nobody wants to attack a keep if you are just going to wipe and nobody wants to defend if you are just going to wipe. It's the solid spam on the other realm that really ends it for people.

    The other issue is relics have become anethema, and they are such an integral part of the game. If there were no relics changing hands for say several months I think part of the game would become less meaningful.

    Also, what we haven't had a chance to test is how OP it would be to defend a keep on hib now. (We tried to take DC once and it was a slaughter, 3g vs 1g hibs that showed up at the very end and just defeated us soundly). Basically, half the issue before this was the inability to take a relic back. The opportunistic debuff groups switch realms on a dime and can easily collect ~200k rp for a keep defense, and hib is very strong in keep defense already. Secondly, after hero logs, full groups of hibs routinely farm 3-4 groups of mids trying to retake glen/bled. The rich get richer.

    I suggest the buff has a cap of 25% and agree it shouldn't work below the lord room. I think you should get that 25% with your 2 relics or no relics, and with additional relics it decreases by 10% per relic maybe.
    I also suggest the buff not be purchasable in opposing realm keeps (for instance if Mids take Beno they cannot buy the buff.
    I also suggest that captured relics also give a 5% rp bonus.
    I also suggest that defenders be given a token RP base defense bonus, and attackers a token RP base attack bonus, even if they don't get any rp. To avoid siege tower/wilson farming, this bonus should only work when a ST is built/wall destroyed/gate destroyed- 1k base bonus, 2k if inner is destroyed.
  • I think the obelisk has an impact. Without it, hero bg can just push to lordroom with all people at once and kill everything. With the obelisk they cant do that, they have to be more careful, the healers have to stay outside.
    If they have albs in their back it becomes difficult, bec. the albs can attack the healers. Or the mids.
    But the obelisk only really works, if enemies try to hold the bottom floor. If the attackers get past the bottom floor, then they usually win.

    It is a bit annoying for the attackers that it is very hard to kill sth on the roof. Even with stun-nukenuke it is hard. So, I think 30% reduction for 2 relics would be a better value.

    I like it that relics cant be taken so easily anymore. This gives more balance imo. Before that, i guess, hib had 5-6 relics for weeks. That cant be a solution. So, this is a good change. But it doesnt make sense, if relics cannot be taken anymore of course.
  • Remove climb points to inner oil, would help with defending.
    Dreamscape 12Lx Dark Lotus
  • I'd like to see another obelisk like feature that knocks heavy tanks off walls while they try to climb up. Require stealthers / Vamps / Savages to kill it in the court yard for heavy tanks to get inside. Would probably kill Hero's zerg entirely too lol.
  • do storms keep them from climbing in??
  • 47el wrote: »
    do storms keep them from climbing in??

    No. I tried it. Need to nuke them climbing up which isn't always convenient.
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