Because John already ameliorated the issues by giving Sorcs sojourner port, speed 5, and a melee resistant buff. hello? And that still leaves Alb/Mid groups without SoS unless they want to run a Minstrel (a very high skill ceiling class) or a Skald (a relatively low performing class)
I'm NOT advertising giving Sorcs heals, but it would absolutely remedy some of it. And if it wouldn't, I haven't seen you put up a proposal that would.
Original intention of the tri realm was to introduce centers of gravity classes for each realm. Hib was strong magic classes, mid strong melee and Alb strong stealth (sorry alb)
Alb was never the "stealth" realm. Sure, they had Minstrels with stealth, but that definitely did not make it the stealth realm.
Anyway, for sake of a productive conversation, if Sorcs or Minstrels got heals, it would have to be in a creative, balanced way. I.e. buffing Minstrel heal song to something like a group hot (could be cool), or creating a new kind of heal that 1) couldn't be used on yourself 2) had like 50% effectiveness if used on yourself.
If you gave minstrels a heal related ability that would cause a number of problems as follows for me:
Stealth one side of the stealth wars would have an even more powerful support class seeing as it gets range/celerity/cc already.
You mentioned the skill cap was high already would be even higher.
As for Sorc its already an insanely powerful class with lots of utility it really doesn't need more it has cc/damage/resist debuff/stat debuff/speed/port and pets it really doesn't need more event if that is in one line.
I have found the debate to be very one sided for alb comparing abilities that other realms have but limit what they dont have that alb does and that make it a really strong group set up. I mean come on Theurg a well played one can lock a fg down no problem and even grey con pets interrupt and stun of course useless in a keep siege but so strong in both fg and small man. Hibs struggle with demezzers compared to other realms mid always have one of their healers doing cc etc each realm has its disadvantages.
Mini bard I’m talking about if your running with the melee buff up and not running a body train you won’t do massive damage do you understand now.
.
First, why would you run around with melee buff up? by doing that you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. you know you cant do dps so you are now strickly a CC toon. SO if you are doing that, its a player issue not a game issue.
Ok obviously you haven’t read what I have posted about 5 times in this thread.
The idea is to give the alb more utility using the mind line of the sorcerer.You go 50 mind and only then can you get access to heals if you spec 50 mind and have the melee protection buff up.
It’s so you can run the sorc as a cc speed bot with heals it’s an idea to provide alb an option when either it’s hard to get a healer or speed.
When you run this spec you are not going to be massively throwing out Dps it’s a simple concept
and I hope you grasp it.
If you have anymore trouble understanding the higher levels in mind I would reccomend daoc class library or maybe obelisks guide on sorcerers.
As you have said the sorc turns into a cc bot when the melee protection buff is up and cannot Dps so what is the point of running it.
Well that question needs to be addressed to the devs I believe it was put in for alb tank groups but as you have correctly stated it puts you at a disadvantage so why run it
The heal options makes much more sense if you run that spec and makes that spec a more fun spec to run.
Only one person so far is happy for a class reroll that tells me you are quiet happy where your realms are at.
/quote]
I'd love to go as far back as broadsword wants to go in patch rerolls. Just because nobody has entertained your notion doesn't mean you are correct. There could be other reasons people aren't speaking up.
Anyway, for sake of a productive conversation, if Sorcs or Minstrels got heals, it would have to be in a creative, balanced way. I.e. buffing Minstrel heal song to something like a group hot (could be cool), or creating a new kind of heal that 1) couldn't be used on yourself 2) had like 50% effectiveness if used on yourself.
~Not that I'm advocating anything~
Maybe have the hot work like the old paladin hot, combat only. Unless they put the heals higher up in the weapon line, it would shift the balance in the stealth wars too much.
An alternative to the sorc heals again would be to look at the minstrel.
The minstrel aoe mez seriously needs looking at with a cast time of 5 secs it’s just too long again apart from affecting stealth groups I can see no reason for not changing this to a 2.5 I like idea of boosting the minstrel heals and maybe giving the minstrel a spirit debuff as well could open up the utility on alb.
To those that say this would effect the stealth line I would say this implementing the changes so that enhances to heal chant reduced cast time aoe mez and a spirit debuff could only Be obtained if no stealth was specced could be a very easy fix.
An alternative to the sorc heals again would be to look at the minstrel.
The minstrel aoe mez seriously needs looking at with a cast time of 5 secs it’s just too long again apart from affecting stealth groups I can see no reason for not changing this to a 2.5 I like idea of boosting the minstrel heals and maybe giving the minstrel a spirit debuff as well could open up the utility on alb.
To those that say this would effect the stealth line I would say this implementing the changes so that enhances to heal chant reduced cast time aoe mez and a spirit debuff could only Be obtained if no stealth was specced could be a very easy fix.
An alternative to the sorc heals again would be to look at the minstrel.
The minstrel aoe mez seriously needs looking at with a cast time of 5 secs it’s just too long again apart from affecting stealth groups I can see no reason for not changing this to a 2.5 I like idea of boosting the minstrel heals and maybe giving the minstrel a spirit debuff as well could open up the utility on alb.
To those that say this would effect the stealth line I would say this implementing the changes so that enhances to heal chant reduced cast time aoe mez and a spirit debuff could only Be obtained if no stealth was specced could be a very easy fix.
What you would also create is an un cc'able toon with a much better mezz so its a no for me.
No @Esel I’m an institution, but it sounds like you might be new to the game.
Saying “classes are different in DAoC” doesn’t address concerns about utility imbalance and how it may take one realm many more slots/players to achieve the core “minimums” of a functioning group - not to mention the impact that has when running smallies
8 is enough for all realms to achieve these arbitrary "minimums" that you talk about.
I played the game since release and people have always complained about balance, but the fact that, as I said, each class is unique - you lose utilities in some areas but gain them in others. The 3 realm system and unique classes are what make RvR great and interesting. To not recognise this shows a fundamental lack of understanding of this game. I'm not willing to explain it again to you, bb
Edit: Gaen seems to be one of the few who actually grasp this simple concept ...
No @Esel I’m an institution, but it sounds like you might be new to the game.
Saying “classes are different in DAoC” doesn’t address concerns about utility imbalance and how it may take one realm many more slots/players to achieve the core “minimums” of a functioning group - not to mention the impact that has when running smallies
8 is enough for all realms to achieve these arbitrary "minimums" that you talk about.
I played the game since release and people have always complained about balance, but the fact that, as I said, each class is unique - you lose utilities in some areas but gain them in others. The 3 realm system and unique classes are what make RvR great and interesting. To not recognise this shows a fundamental lack of understanding of this game. I'm not willing to explain it again to you, bb
Edit: Gaen seems to be one of the few who actually grasp this simple concept ...
I think the whole argument is that Alb requires a larger % of the 8 to achieve said "minimums", not that they can't achieve them with a full 8.
I think everyone agrees that Alb is the strongest realm when talking about a full group (8), while probably being the weakest on a smallman setting.
The original proposition, while originally aimed at Brut's love of playing braindead tanker groups, would have a much bigger impact on smallman, where on each other realms the main CC is a support class with soj, which opens up much more potential groups combinations at the smallman level.
I think there are a lot of players that played this game since release and they would probably be the last players I'd go to for advice, so that was not really a good argument in your favor. Just saying "classes are different" isn't a valid argument as to why Sorcs would not be suitable to get a heal, since the sorc would still be different than any other class with or without heals.
Edit : I can already see you coming back with the "well the game wasn't designed around smallman" argument, which doesn't really make sense considering that smallman is a valid playstyle that is required in the game ecosystem.
Your arguments should be aimed at explaining why giving the sorc heals would cause a massive imbalance at the 8/zerg level.
Shoke i would not see an issue with giving sorcs soj.
But i don't think that's what brut is crying about. He is crying that sorcs really don't fit in a tank group.
Last time I cried was when lassie died
Please take time to read my post mini bud
I’d like to see this change mainly for small man and pick up groups It’s not about tank groups it’s about alb utility that’s not to much to ask.
Most days I play it’s a pug or small man
Both the minstrel idea and sorc ideas are valid ideas that require balanced discussion Mostly surprisingly for this board I’ve actually had a good hearing with I think a balanced view on both ideas.
There’s the usual brut brain dead tanker stuff and learn to play dude but I expect that and it goes with the territory of opening your mouth but most of the thread has had good points from both sides something I’m pleasantly surprised about.
What really does annoy me is that broadsword input is zero not just this thread but any thread on this board I sometimes wonder if they actually read or bother what’s posted on this forum.
Here is the problem i see with giving sorcs heals is that would have major effects for all play stile and changes that big can be and even bigger balance issue then it is now
The best way i can see to fixing the problems you pointed out and not break balance (to much at least XD) is to change the oready existing spells around)
This is just my opinion but instead of giving sorcs heals is to
1:transfer the thurg speed to the sorcs and give sork speed to the fry (can even give the speed a new name like divine speed or something like that would fit into the church) why the fry over the healer is i think its better that way as smite clerics would be able to kite way to easily. And thurgs would still be able to kite pretty well with mess(and i think a root) and pets that chain stun. Might even make then a little easier to fight. And a fry would still need to melee to kill( the only problem i see is it might make it that much easier for the to reset fights.
2:give sorcs a higher delve dd in one of the spec lines thats not mind im that way it gives them a choice on either more dps or better cc. As for the damage type of the dd i do not know what would fit in and not break balance to much (mabe you guys could give an input on that part as well as grps builds that would back up the idea.
My idea still leaves each realm with 2 main and one off speed classes and should not effect one play stile more then another. If you disagree let me know what you thibk would be better and @brut let me know if this fixes the problems you are trying talk about.
Sorcs already have a high delve DD in Body @Names. Sorcs really don't need anything as they're already packed full of utility. Giving them Gateway and other "buffs" in Mind spec really wasn't necessary, imo. I'm beginning to think the major gripe here is that the primary CC class in Alb doesn't have heals like Hib or Mid. Granted, those classes (Bard & Healer) don't have debuffs, damage, or the casting speed that a Sorc has. If you want parity in healing on primary CC classes then Alb has to lose heals on either the Heretic or Paladin for the same reason. Balancing this game is a pain in the ass if you want classes to be unique. But if you want parity, then you have to sacrifice uniqueness. Mind Sorcs can get heals for all I care but someone else has to lose them. Otherwise you're just going to make an Alb 8man that much harder to kill for the sake of helping smallies.
Edit: If BS really considers going down this route, then Paladins should lose their heals and get their old chant back. Alternatively, give them the Friar HoT in place of the chant. I would also suggest moving Pin from the Reaver to the Paladin.
Edit2: Depending on whether or not cure poison/disease/NS is added, I would consider re-arranging the debuffs as follows: dex/quick in Matter, str/con in Body, and nothing in Mind.
@puter i think sorcs are fine where they are but if something had to be changed thats what i would do. And i did not remember them have a high delve dd(prolly because everyone says they cant dps but now i know. But again i think they are fine the way they are now
Comments
Because John already ameliorated the issues by giving Sorcs sojourner port, speed 5, and a melee resistant buff. hello? And that still leaves Alb/Mid groups without SoS unless they want to run a Minstrel (a very high skill ceiling class) or a Skald (a relatively low performing class)
They do not. That's a known fact that's not even up for debate.
I'm NOT advertising giving Sorcs heals, but it would absolutely remedy some of it. And if it wouldn't, I haven't seen you put up a proposal that would.
Who are you again?
Alb was never the "stealth" realm. Sure, they had Minstrels with stealth, but that definitely did not make it the stealth realm.
~Not that I'm advocating anything~
Stealth one side of the stealth wars would have an even more powerful support class seeing as it gets range/celerity/cc already.
You mentioned the skill cap was high already would be even higher.
As for Sorc its already an insanely powerful class with lots of utility it really doesn't need more it has cc/damage/resist debuff/stat debuff/speed/port and pets it really doesn't need more event if that is in one line.
I have found the debate to be very one sided for alb comparing abilities that other realms have but limit what they dont have that alb does and that make it a really strong group set up. I mean come on Theurg a well played one can lock a fg down no problem and even grey con pets interrupt and stun of course useless in a keep siege but so strong in both fg and small man. Hibs struggle with demezzers compared to other realms mid always have one of their healers doing cc etc each realm has its disadvantages.
Try getting hit.
First, why would you run around with melee buff up? by doing that you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. you know you cant do dps so you are now strickly a CC toon. SO if you are doing that, its a player issue not a game issue.
The idea is to give the alb more utility using the mind line of the sorcerer.You go 50 mind and only then can you get access to heals if you spec 50 mind and have the melee protection buff up.
It’s so you can run the sorc as a cc speed bot with heals it’s an idea to provide alb an option when either it’s hard to get a healer or speed.
When you run this spec you are not going to be massively throwing out Dps it’s a simple concept
and I hope you grasp it.
If you have anymore trouble understanding the higher levels in mind I would reccomend daoc class library or maybe obelisks guide on sorcerers.
As you have said the sorc turns into a cc bot when the melee protection buff is up and cannot Dps so what is the point of running it.
Well that question needs to be addressed to the devs I believe it was put in for alb tank groups but as you have correctly stated it puts you at a disadvantage so why run it
The heal options makes much more sense if you run that spec and makes that spec a more fun spec to run.
Ps ignore when I said "They do not. That's a known fact that's not even up for debate." misread~
Maybe have the hot work like the old paladin hot, combat only. Unless they put the heals higher up in the weapon line, it would shift the balance in the stealth wars too much.
The minstrel aoe mez seriously needs looking at with a cast time of 5 secs it’s just too long again apart from affecting stealth groups I can see no reason for not changing this to a 2.5 I like idea of boosting the minstrel heals and maybe giving the minstrel a spirit debuff as well could open up the utility on alb.
To those that say this would effect the stealth line I would say this implementing the changes so that enhances to heal chant reduced cast time aoe mez and a spirit debuff could only Be obtained if no stealth was specced could be a very easy fix.
What you would also create is an un cc'able toon with a much better mezz so its a no for me.
8 is enough for all realms to achieve these arbitrary "minimums" that you talk about.
I played the game since release and people have always complained about balance, but the fact that, as I said, each class is unique - you lose utilities in some areas but gain them in others. The 3 realm system and unique classes are what make RvR great and interesting. To not recognise this shows a fundamental lack of understanding of this game. I'm not willing to explain it again to you, bb
Edit: Gaen seems to be one of the few who actually grasp this simple concept ...
I think the whole argument is that Alb requires a larger % of the 8 to achieve said "minimums", not that they can't achieve them with a full 8.
I think everyone agrees that Alb is the strongest realm when talking about a full group (8), while probably being the weakest on a smallman setting.
The original proposition, while originally aimed at Brut's love of playing braindead tanker groups, would have a much bigger impact on smallman, where on each other realms the main CC is a support class with soj, which opens up much more potential groups combinations at the smallman level.
I think there are a lot of players that played this game since release and they would probably be the last players I'd go to for advice, so that was not really a good argument in your favor. Just saying "classes are different" isn't a valid argument as to why Sorcs would not be suitable to get a heal, since the sorc would still be different than any other class with or without heals.
Edit : I can already see you coming back with the "well the game wasn't designed around smallman" argument, which doesn't really make sense considering that smallman is a valid playstyle that is required in the game ecosystem.
Your arguments should be aimed at explaining why giving the sorc heals would cause a massive imbalance at the 8/zerg level.
But i don't think that's what brut is crying about. He is crying that sorcs really don't fit in a tank group.
Please take time to read my post mini bud
I’d like to see this change mainly for small man and pick up groups It’s not about tank groups it’s about alb utility that’s not to much to ask.
Most days I play it’s a pug or small man
Both the minstrel idea and sorc ideas are valid ideas that require balanced discussion Mostly surprisingly for this board I’ve actually had a good hearing with I think a balanced view on both ideas.
There’s the usual brut brain dead tanker stuff and learn to play dude but I expect that and it goes with the territory of opening your mouth but most of the thread has had good points from both sides something I’m pleasantly surprised about.
What really does annoy me is that broadsword input is zero not just this thread but any thread on this board I sometimes wonder if they actually read or bother what’s posted on this forum.
The best way i can see to fixing the problems you pointed out and not break balance (to much at least XD) is to change the oready existing spells around)
This is just my opinion but instead of giving sorcs heals is to
1:transfer the thurg speed to the sorcs and give sork speed to the fry (can even give the speed a new name like divine speed or something like that would fit into the church) why the fry over the healer is i think its better that way as smite clerics would be able to kite way to easily. And thurgs would still be able to kite pretty well with mess(and i think a root) and pets that chain stun. Might even make then a little easier to fight. And a fry would still need to melee to kill( the only problem i see is it might make it that much easier for the to reset fights.
2:give sorcs a higher delve dd in one of the spec lines thats not mind im that way it gives them a choice on either more dps or better cc. As for the damage type of the dd i do not know what would fit in and not break balance to much (mabe you guys could give an input on that part as well as grps builds that would back up the idea.
My idea still leaves each realm with 2 main and one off speed classes and should not effect one play stile more then another. If you disagree let me know what you thibk would be better and @brut let me know if this fixes the problems you are trying talk about.
Edit: If BS really considers going down this route, then Paladins should lose their heals and get their old chant back. Alternatively, give them the Friar HoT in place of the chant. I would also suggest moving Pin from the Reaver to the Paladin.
Edit2: Depending on whether or not cure poison/disease/NS is added, I would consider re-arranging the debuffs as follows: dex/quick in Matter, str/con in Body, and nothing in Mind.