Mind sorcs and possible changes for alb utility

Due to many changes over the years the game balance has changed currently you can run bard Druid warden on hib
Because of giving healer speed you can run
Healer pac healer aug then shaman
This covers all your cc all of your heals and also speed then just fill with whatever.
These are basic examples
The problem on alb is that both speed classes cannot heal .
So albs are always at a disadvantage for heals.
My proposal would be to give the mind sorc a heal ability rather like the mentalist or the warlock.
At the moment in time a mind sorc can do limited damage is restricted to a speed and cc role.
If the mind sorc was given this ability it would do much to address the utility problem on alb.
Be nice to have an honest debate on this subject and any other ideas to correct the situation would be nice to hear.

Comments

  • I like the idea of the power of the mind healing the group and helping Albs to blow things up :)
    vb32ahwhmqdh.jpg
    Bumblebunny to the rescue !
  • A mind sorc if he has the melee defence buff up cannot do any damage he is in affect a cc bot just spamming cc debuffs and the melee damage buff if it’s a tank group it’s a boring role adding a healing option increases albs utility and gives the mind sorc a more fulfilling role in a grouo plus the opportunity to make heal rps.
    There are prescidence for otter heal casters I will cite the mentalist and warlock.
    Mentalist can actually cc and damage.
    The lock can spreadheal that requires no power If a particular Chamber is up Pretty crazy in this power limited game.
    So asking for the sorc to get some form of healing in the mind line is not unreasonable let’s try have an actual debate with valid reasons for and against.
  • @Brut it would prob make sense if

    - sorc can only heal if the melee abs buff is up.
    - sorc r5 silences the sorc (if it isn't the case already, idk)

    Other than that I think it would be cool
  • Why compare Ments and Locks to Sorcs? You are, conveniently, leaving out the Tic.
    Da ant family - House 1809Da fly family - House 4501Da spider family - House 444
    Check out the trophy collection - Ywain 1.
    https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/daredant
  • Building Alb groups isn't that difficult from a support stand point. Cleric, Friar, Sorc and/or Minstrel then fill. The problem is DPS synergy. All Mid and Hib casters share at least one damage type. Alb casters are split between Matter and Body with Body being the clear winner in terms of overall utility. While I agree it's more convenient to build a small man in Hib or Mid, the game is balanced around a group cap of 8. Providing Sorcs the ability to heal would be great for small mans but wouldn't solve the DPS synergy issue and would only further increase the skill gap in a full group setting. Personally, I think Body Sorcs should have their magic debuffs moved to another class but that would require some major revamping on Broadswords part which, historically, hasn't went well.
  • Apples to oranges
  • edited November 22 PM
    puter wrote: »
    Building Alb groups isn't that difficult from a support stand point. Cleric, Friar, Sorc and/or Minstrel then fill. The problem is DPS synergy. All Mid and Hib casters share at least one damage type. Alb casters are split between Matter and Body with Body being the clear winner in terms of overall utility. While I agree it's more convenient to build a small man in Hib or Mid, the game is balanced around a group cap of 8. Providing Sorcs the ability to heal would be great for small mans but wouldn't solve the DPS synergy issue and would only further increase the skill gap in a full group setting. Personally, I think Body Sorcs should have their magic debuffs moved to another class but that would require some major revamping on Broadswords part which, historically, hasn't went well.

    While I believe the main goal of balance is around 8v8, Hibernia has so much utility packed into the three support classes. Hibernia with Druid/Warden/Bard gets Speed, CC, SOS, Both red resists, red PBT, red Celerity and demezz.

    Mid you get Speed, CC, Demezz (Pac Healer), (Aug Healer) Red Celerity, both Red Resists after the Aug healer change and with a Shaman - no SOS, No PBT.

    Alb you get both red resists for running Cleric and Friar, Two Demezzes with Friar and Sorc, Bolt Range Mezz,1655 (pre range buff) blue AE Root on Sorc if spec'd 44/31 and 10% group mezz reduction, speed, and cc. No PBT and no Celerity.

    Alb and Mid have nice toys but still don't have red pbt and SOS running three support classes.

    Not to mention if Alb or Mid want to run PBT they need to run a fourth cloth class whereas as Hib is a scale wearing class with a shield.
    Post edited by Daelin on
  • edited November 22 PM
    Brut wrote: »
    A mind sorc if he has the melee defence buff up cannot do any damage he is in affect a cc bot just spamming cc debuffs and the melee damage buff if it’s a tank group it’s a boring role adding a healing option increases albs utility and gives the mind sorc a more fulfilling role in a grouo plus the opportunity to make heal rps.
    There are prescidence for otter heal casters I will cite the mentalist and warlock.
    Mentalist can actually cc and damage.
    The lock can spreadheal that requires no power If a particular Chamber is up Pretty crazy in this power limited game.
    So asking for the sorc to get some form of healing in the mind line is not unreasonable let’s try have an actual debate with valid reasons for and against.

    Brut, the Witchcraft Lock still requires Power for Spreadheal. You have the ability to pop a 20 Power regenerating ability but spreadheal still taxes your power quite a bit. It's the group heals that require no power if you use the witchcrafting casting secondary ability. Also, I heal much more with my group heal than spreadheal. The only benefit is spreadheal isn't reduced by disease. I get more healing per second out of my group heal than my spreadheal on my Witchcrafting lock.

    Spreadheal is a primary spell whereas group heal is a secondary which is affected by secondary affecting spells.
    Post edited by Daelin on
  • The 3 realms are different, however it is generally accepted that Alb is able to make the strongest 8v8 setup. I just SMH at this post but then again it was made by you so I'm not surprised.
  • @Esel I tried to keep an open mind to Brut's request.

    The overall consensus is that Alb is the strongest realm and can make a killer tank group, but it does require a bit more finesse as you'll have more casters in it than in other realms.

    His request is specifically aimed at the Alb full tanker group.

    The only way I see this is to probably reduce the Sorc's utility.


    Example, the Mind Sorc af/ abs buff would

    - reduce damage by 40% (like it does now)
    - the intense focus of your mind reduces your spell range by 25%
    - cannot charm a pet
    - you gain access to single target heals, 3.0 cast spd/ same delve as paladin single heal/15% power cost per cast
  • Give Mini's a proper heal to make them equivalent to Bards :p
  • Original intention of the tri realm was to introduce centers of gravity classes for each realm. Hib was strong magic classes, mid strong melee and Alb strong stealth (sorry alb)

    You cant give a stealth class heals or it breaks a huge part of the game. Giving sorcs a non spec heal however seems more then rational and dosent crash anything.
  • I agree that alb can make the strongest 8 v8 set up but that’s not my point.

    The alb 8v8 setup is about having the right players and needs a set 8 man to be successful.
    My proposal is mainly aimed at the utility side on alb and the general lack of players to create the perfect group.
    It’s mainly for the casual and small 8 and even Zerg players it shouldn’t really effect the leet 8 man set up but it should help the casual and small man player
  • what are the leet 8v8 setups for the different realms??
  • Maybe not to the casual player but Alb is the most OP realm. Even when IRC does drafts when Alb, certain classes are not allowed. Its just people have become lazy.

    If sorcs where to get heals, I would put it in body if most sorcs go Mind/Body.
  • Auberne wrote: »
    Give Mini's a proper heal to make them equivalent to Bards :p

    As great as that sounds, it would kill the stealth game.
    Dreamscape 12Lx Dark Lotus
  • Ok you know what mini bard I’m not going to get into which is the oped realm that perspective comes a lot from where you play and your in game experiences.
    Nothing to do with people being lazy in fact why throw out an antagonistic comment like that what does it achieve.
    This thread is about helping alb utility something that is a problem if you knew anything about the mind sorc line you would understand that full mind makes you a cc bot you can’t damage you can only debuff and cc kinda gets boring it’s not unreasonable to give them some form of heal just purely for fun playing the class.
    To put it in the body line would be op.
    As for minis I wouldn’t want a heal but I would want the aoe mez cast speed reduced to 3 or 2.5 secs and possibly a spirit debuff or damage conversion to spirit not an unreasonable request seeing as mid and hib both have this ability for different debuffs .
  • You keep asking for things that other realms have do you want the game to be wow ? same abilities on all realms ? this makes this game unique each realm has its benefits and disadvantages as it should be. But sorc is a very very strong class and adding more to it gets a no for me. Alb groups like has been mentioned are the strongest currently and dont really need anything else even for casual players.
  • edited November 23 PM
    Edited by Amadeus
    Post edited by Amadeus on
  • edited November 23 PM
    Edited by Amadeus

    :D
    Post edited by Amadeus on
  • Again no need to throw insults that all alb players are retards would you Say the same about all hib players because they follow hero.
    I’m not asking for anything here I’m making a suggestion to improve alb utility it’s not About making all classes the same it’s creating some kind of balance.
    Again for the 100 time it’s a change to the mind line.
    I would be quiet happy to see bards going back to only having a basic group heal and single target I would also like to see healers lose speed but that genies out of the bottle now.
    Changes have consequences I’m just trying to correct some of them.
  • Brut wrote: »
    Again no need to throw insults that all alb players are retards would you Say the same about all hib players because they follow hero.
    I’m not asking for anything here I’m making a suggestion to improve alb utility it’s not About making all classes the same it’s creating some kind of balance.
    Again for the 100 time it’s a change to the mind line.
    I would be quiet happy to see bards going back to only having a basic group heal and single target I would also like to see healers lose speed but that genies out of the bottle now.
    Changes have consequences I’m just trying to correct some of them.

    By giving sorc heals it would through the utility through the roof of a class that doesn't need it. Its a fantastic class always has been always will be. I notice your not mentioning the number of demezzers in that 3 man alb compared to the hib for instance the view is one sided or the damage output in comparison for the same 3 man or the fact that one class has all the stat debuffs. Think beyond that 3 and the rest of the group set up instead of just focusing on one part that's the issue.
  • I don't think the Mind line needs anything else. My Sorc has been split spec for many years and I never felt going full Mind was worth it unless I was in a tanker even with the changes. Playing a Sorc is hardly boring, imo. If anything needs attention on the class, it's the Matter line. But again, that brings me back to the lack of group diversity in Alb due to poor synergy between classes. I don't think giving Sorcs the ability to heal will solve that issue.
  • Alb doesn't need more utility, it has more than its fair share. Not making the most of that utility is a player-base issue and would not warrant giving sorcs heals. I agree that BS have made some questionable class changes so I guess nothing is impossible, still doesn't make it any less of a bad idea though.
  • guess you should add the ment to the hib group for the extra heals, demez and nice stun with the curse set :)
    still would like to know the better/leet group setups on the realms---rr5-6
    also what would the sorc split spec be and how much rr do you need for it--with all the det 9 tanks dont you need
    the higher delve mez?
  • All his points revolve around wanting to face smash his keyboard since all he wants to run is tanks.
  • Brut wrote: »
    Ok you know what mini bard I’m not going to get into which is the oped realm that perspective comes a lot from where you play and your in game experiences.
    Nothing to do with people being lazy in fact why throw out an antagonistic comment like that what does it achieve.
    This thread is about helping alb utility something that is a problem if you knew anything about the mind sorc line you would understand that full mind makes you a cc bot you can’t damage you can only debuff and cc kinda gets boring it’s not unreasonable to give them some form of heal just purely for fun playing the class.
    To put it in the body line would be op.
    As for minis I wouldn’t want a heal but I would want the aoe mez cast speed reduced to 3 or 2.5 secs and possibly a spirit debuff or damage conversion to spirit not an unreasonable request seeing as mid and hib both have this ability for different debuffs .

    I know plenty about Mind Sorcs. Since I have one. What are you talking about they cant do damage? When you have a cabby debuffing body, you use your LT.



  • Mini bard I’m talking about if your running with the melee buff up and not running a body train you won’t do massive damage do you understand now.
    Why did broadsword give sorcs speed and water breath what was the reason if not to improve alb utility and to help form groups with a low population the trouble is they did half a job.
    It’s heals in the mind line not body not matter.
    There is an issue with utility on alb and the low population has made it more evident.
    There is an issue in game with balance 6 relics numerous zergs on hib tells you something is wrong.
    You can continue to ignore the situation but all you will do is lose more players.
    I’d be interested to see what the leet 8 mans run on alb
    Body train I assume
    Thane energy train on mid
    And hib well bard warden Druid fill with Dps
    You all throw comments about alb not lacking util compared to the other realms but you can’t back it up with evidence.
  • edited November 23 PM
    I think creaper runs sorc 2necro 2 cabby mini friar cleric or a variation of that
    Post edited by Minibard on
  • Giving speed 6 to more classes was a mistake, imo. Skalds are nigh useless in a group setting as a result.

    Yes, the go to Alb setup is the Body debuff train because it has the most utility. No other debuff train on Alb comes close. Giving Mind Sorcs heals doesn't address this problem and only significantly benefits small mans. Remember, Alb has four classes that can heal (Friar, Cleric, Heretic, and Paladin) just like Mid (Shaman, Healer, Warlock, and Valk) and Hib (Warden, Druid, Bard, and Mentalist). I personally don't go higher than 44 Mind on my Sorc as the melee buff isn't great, the shield buff isn't worth it at RR5+, and instant mez is a crutch. There's plenty for a Sorc to do in a group without adding heals on top of it. If you're bored playing a Mind Sorc, then you're fighting players sleeping at the keyboard.
  • Don't fix what isn't broken. The sorc is one of the highest utility classes in game and that is coming from someone who played a sorc,
  • edited November 26 PM
    puter wrote: »
    Building Alb groups isn't that difficult from a support stand point. Cleric, Friar, Sorc and/or Minstrel then fill. The problem is DPS synergy. All Mid and Hib casters share at least one damage type. Alb casters are split between Matter and Body with Body being the clear winner in terms of overall utility. While I agree it's more convenient to build a small man in Hib or Mid, the game is balanced around a group cap of 8. Providing Sorcs the ability to heal would be great for small mans but wouldn't solve the DPS synergy issue and would only further increase the skill gap in a full group setting. Personally, I think Body Sorcs should have their magic debuffs moved to another class but that would require some major revamping on Broadswords part which, historically, hasn't went well.

    The issue with synergy has nothing to do with damage types. Sorc/Necro/Cab are all well synergized in terms of damage (Body/Spirit). You can include a Theurg with that if Air specced (spirit), or a non-Air spec Theurg isn't going to be nuking much. The only remaining caster is a Wizard, which just got a self 50% heat debuff in Earth for the baseline nuke in Fire.

    Warlocks, Animists, and Bainshees all suffer some synergy issues. I.e. Animists and Bainshees don't have access to Heat (Bainshee can get Cold and an Animist can get Matter via a bomber, which is clunky) and Warlocks don't have access to Cold. A Hex spec lock, however, can self debuff 50% matter for the baseline cursing nuke.

    You're right, Cleric/Friar, Sorc, Minstrel. That's three classes to get some of the critical utilities (SoS, Speed 5, Heals, AoE Mezz with a long duration, etc) of just a Bard or a Healer. I hope you see the problem now...

    As for moving debuffs out of Body Spec - what's the point? You can't move them to Cabalist. You shouldn't move them to Necromancer (they have more than enough utility and a Matter DD/Snare and pet that nukes matter and debuffs matter already). You could theoretically move them to Theurgist, but that's just going to stray a Theurg away from interrupting via pets - which is their role. The only remaining Alb caster is a Wizard (or theoretically Heretic) - Wizards just got a 50% heat debuff and Heretics definitely DO NOT need one.

    I see a lot of Alb bias in your post~
    Post edited by Enkertons on
  • Even Smite Clerics can jump on the Spirit train on Alb ;>
  • Tbh I don't think the initial request is that ridiculous, but I also don't think it would solve anything for the alb tanker.

    I wonder if changing the paladin lvl 50 2H style to incorporate a high delve DD proc would have more effect than adding heals to a sorc.

    I mean the sorc is already busy CCing and rupting, I don't think adding another layer of heals when your group has 2 heals + paladin + potentially a heretic solves anything.

    Alb tanker survivability is already extremely high. Dps, however, is a bit short. Adding a 160/180ish spirit DD proc on Sun and Moons could add a layer of spike dps to the tank train.
  • @Enkertons

    Having more "critical utilities" on one class is a bigger issue if you're running less than a FG. All these classe offer additional utility on top of the ones you listed. Unless the realms becomes mirrored, this is one of the few ways to keep classes diverse. While the game design isn't perfect, it's better to compare group setups than individual classes when evaluating a deficiency.

    I've honestly never thought Alb groups were hurting beyond not having a second debuff train. Spirit is a convenient offshoot from Body and doesn't change the setup much. Alb can technically put together a Heat debuff train but it would be straight DPS while lacking pets. Some utility loss can be made up by coordinating sub specs for disease and NS though so it could work. The larger problem I see on Alb is the players...region speaks for itself I think. RIP Sengwu
  • i thought most armor had a 10 percent resist rate to body built in, while all armor is neutral to spirit??
  • Spells dont care about your armor
  • Enkertons wrote: »
    You're right, Cleric/Friar, Sorc, Minstrel. That's three classes to get some of the critical utilities (SoS, Speed 5, Heals, AoE Mezz with a long duration, etc) of just a Bard or a Healer. I hope you see the problem now...

    Surprising that it needs to be said again but .... each class is unique. The minstrel has abilities that the Bard does not. The Sorc has abilities that a Healer does not. Just because Alb has a few abilities (carefully selected for you to make your point) spread out over classes it doesn't mean it's at an advantage. Alb groups will benefit from additional utility that these classes bring.

    It's really getting boring trying to explain the same basic principles over and over .....
  • Remember when sorcs didn't have super defensive options for cc mode (or heck before rr5s were around).
    Remember when pallies (the guys with great 2h dps/snares/bodyguard) couldn't group/spec heal?
    Remember when friars didn't get meditation, et al.?
    Alb healing classes have gotten some major love, and alb has the best spell resist abilities in game (minstrel/tick).in a game where spell resists are king and compliment heals, albs can't complain about heals.

    On CC, it used to be mids got more instas because albs had the range and dex (extremely clutch). Now Minstrels can push and have several cc abilities. Mid/Alb cc is largely the same but albs now get enhanced defensives.

    I think what albs should understand is that the sorc isn't a healer and if you want it to heal it should be a different class. Friars are the best healers in game. Hope I said that clearly enough. Until such time as sorcs cant function as a pet class/debuff class/damage class in addition to cc, it wouldn't go over well on mid/hib if sorcs got heals. (don't forget for solo/small man they already get lifetaps and dots and now speed 5, if you give them any heal they will be invincible solo).
  • While your correct that minis got new abilities and pallys got heals and sorcs got speed and water breath what you neglected to mention was the other abilities that other realms got at the same time which were major game changers both for melee groups and general pug utility.
    Warlock heal changes giving healers speed insta charge 5 for charge tanks which I would argue benefitted mid most plus the thane energy conversion.
    With the same changes to hib chanters animist shrooms vale walkers vamps champs and various other changes to hib classes.
    My point is pug group utility on alb has suffered
    This is not a your realm had more than my realm thread it’s a genuine attempt to correct the dumb patches that have been brought in.
    Now I’m quiet happy to roll all the patches back to pre necro change patch would you all agree that both hib and mid would want the same id wager not one of you would if you do want a
    Reroll free free to post here.
    The answers to this question should be very interesting.
  • edited November 30 PM
    I'd personally be okay with a roll back to patch 1.9X era in regards to class balance. The new potions and speed 6 mounts can stay. Items are a toss up for me since they've been adjusted already.
    Post edited by puter on
  • Brut wrote: »
    While your correct that minis got new abilities and pallys got heals and sorcs got speed and water breath what you neglected to mention was the other abilities that other realms got at the same time which were major game changers both for melee groups and general pug utility.
    Warlock heal changes giving healers speed insta charge 5 for charge tanks which I would argue benefitted mid most plus the thane energy conversion.
    With the same changes to hib chanters animist shrooms vale walkers vamps champs and various other changes to hib classes.
    My point is pug group utility on alb has suffered
    This is not a your realm had more than my realm thread it’s a genuine attempt to correct the dumb patches that have been brought in.
    Now I’m quiet happy to roll all the patches back to pre necro change patch would you all agree that both hib and mid would want the same id wager not one of you would if you do want a
    Reroll free free to post here.
    The answers to this question should be very interesting.

    The game is probably most balanced its ever been right now. While I do have a bug bear with the free charge ask anyone who I play with I could go on for hours about that the rest of the game is pretty good balance wise.

    I still cant understand where your coming from with pug utility on alb there are so many excellent classes with lots of utility to make a decent group and there is class defining abilities that no other realm has which make them seriously hard to fight against to the point like people have said previously they are not allowed in drafts.
  • @Gaen please refer to @Triq02_Dave comment above to understand where he is coming from.

    "All his points revolve around wanting to face smash his keyboard since all he wants to run is tanks."
  • edited December 1 PM
    ROFL. This is possibly the worst class change proposal I’ve ever seen in 20 years of DAoC.

    It shows very little understanding of the game design, mechanics, and balance strategies. I’m not even sure why so many people are replying to this nonsensical garbage.
    Post edited by secky on
  • Secky please explain why it is a bad change give me your reasons not just knee jerk reactions.
    And please explain to me how it would affect class balance I would be interested to hear your reasons seeing as you have such a wide ranging understanding of the class.
    Let me clarify the proposal
    The proposal is for the sorc to have single target heal and group heal in level 50 mind spec only if the melee protection buff is up this negates the sorc having any significant damage output and the ability to heal rather than just being a cc bot which if you played the class I would assume you would understand.
    It addresses Some of albs problem with group utility that has been compounded by subsequent class and patch changes.
    I repeat I’m quiet happy to see a reroll to the pre necro change patch when I thought the game was balanced.
    Only one person so far is happy for a class reroll that tells me you are quiet happy where your realms are at.
    I repeat please tell me why the proposal is bad not knee jerk this is bad and throw insults .
    I’m quiet happy to hear any other proposals
Sign In or Register to comment.