Relics Shouldn't Be PvE'd - A Possible Change To Fix It and Potentially Hero Zerg Issues
It's long. But it's long because it's talking about how to change player incentives, which is never an easy fix.
Problem: US Players are punished because Euro Players play how they do.
This isn't any one particular players fault, not even Hero's. The US has had primetime zergs since the beginning of the game. It's just the Euro's who have decided to quit and all pile onto Hero so that you have one guy leading 40-60 and the other realms basically just throwing in the towel. I don't blame Hero for that. Rescu has led massive zergs for years. Xyorman led massive zergs for years. It's only the Euro Mid and Albs that seem to have quit, truly a testament to how thoroughly Hero impacted them.
The problem is this creates an imbalance in the US Primetime zergs. Specifically, Hib has multiple relics more often than not. Why should the US players be punished because the Euro's quit? Hero gets to take Relics because there is rarely a defense. When was the last time the US Primetime had relics taken from behind relic gates? It just doesn't happen because it takes too long to fight through all the defenses. Not even Hero is capable of taking the relics when the US zergs begin. He's always left to PvE them before the zergs start.
Why should relics be PvE'd?
Simultaneous to that however is that Hero shouldn't be punished because the Euro's quit fighting him.
Solution: Revamp the relic system. Remove the keep requirements from it. Instead, have a system based on player kills.
This system would work as follows:
1) Relics inside keeps can be taken at any point simply by taking the keep.
2) Relics behind relic gates require a certain number of deaths by a realm within the previous 2 hours. Once those kills are achieved, the relic's can be directly attacked. This kill count is based on data that already exists on kills per hour. If the number of kills in the previous 2 hours exceeds some threshold (such as in the top 80% of kills the week before), then the relic gates open. If not, they remain closed and untakeable.
To give an example, in the week of 10/18 there were 16,275 mid deaths. There are 84 2 hour periods in a week. This means the average number of kills per 2 consecutive hours were 193.75 deaths per 2 hours. Obviously this varies dramatically by time frame. During the nighttime hours EST there are probably fewer than 100 deaths per 2 hours, US primetime I bet there are 500 deaths in 2 hours. So, suppose the threshold was set to 350 deaths. Then the relic could only be taken if, in the last 2 hours, there were 350 Midgard players killed. Then, for 1 hour, the mid relic gates can be attacked. Both of them. Again that's just a guess, the actual number however can be known.
What are the advantages to this system?
Well, for starters you won't see relics being PvE'd, either by Hero (30k, 2 relics, 3 hours were his stats when he took relics the day before last), but also by the US primetime zergs after, Seoul in the early morning hours, etc. Simply put, the relics aren't taken when defended, they're only taken when not defended. And it's not like the OF days where 200 people would log in and epic fights would be had after an ambush. It's just straight up, indifference because people go to bed or just have flat out quit.
Another, less obvious, advantage though is that it could lead to breaking up the Hero zerg naturally.
If the relic bonus was boosted again, something I think should happen if you're gonna make a true RvR requirement to take, then they should be worth fighting over. Hero can continue zerging like he does if he wants. But he can't take relics (assuming a good number of deaths is set). Or, he could break up his zerg into smaller components, then once the relic can be taken pile up and hit the relic hard.
This could really improve action Euro time where you won't see people bailing to run in the Hero zerg as now they aren't even getting to PvE relics, they're just straight wasting time. Still, they may do it and nothing can stop that, but giving an incentive to break up isn't bad.
It would also spice up US Primetime.
Right now, it is completely impossible for US Primetime to hit relic temples. Giving a kill requirement, rather than a keep one, opens them up to more attacks. This can cause the US time to actually have different fights than what has been typically happening for years now. Hibs defending relics, Mids/Albs sometimes taking sometimes not. Eventually someone PvEs them if they aren't taken during the primetime.
In an effort to prolong fights to help get Hero defenders more time to mount a defense, we've made it so that, realistically, US Primetime can only take 2 keeps before the night's over.
Simply put, no one enjoys PvEing relics. I don't even think Hero does. I think everyone would rather have quality fights, but right now there is no incentive to break up the Hero zerg. it simply is the easiest way for most people to make RPs. This in turn has lowered Hero's RPs so that he makes the majority of his RPs during US Primetime as those are his biggest fights of the week.
Other changes would be required if this happened obviously. Relic guards should be weakened as the relic fight now is taking place over hours throughout the realm, and then at the temple, rather than just a bunch of keeps taken then the temple.
People do show more willingness to defend the relic keeps/temples than they do random keeps that may or may not lead to relics.
This thought can use work and I hope that people make quality suggestions to improve it and that it's taken seriously. Because, frankly, the game is dying again. Euro primetime flat out sucks. I don't know anyone who enjoys it outside of the Hero zergers, who make up a small percentage of the game. It negatively impacts US Primetime players and we can't even change it because we're doing things.
Even if the Hero zerg continues how it does now, at least the impact on US Primetime is reduced because frankly, it blows fighting against a zerg with 6 relics knowing that they have them because a player in a different time zone can just take them at will because there is so little defense.
This also shouldn't impact keep fight incentives as the RP bonuses from attacking/defending are substantial. US fights over keeps because of the RPs, not relics. I believe Hero hits keeps for the same reason. You're not weakening the purpose of keeps, but even if you think you are, there are changes that could potentially be made to adjust for that.
Relics shouldn't be PvE'd.
Problem: US Players are punished because Euro Players play how they do.
This isn't any one particular players fault, not even Hero's. The US has had primetime zergs since the beginning of the game. It's just the Euro's who have decided to quit and all pile onto Hero so that you have one guy leading 40-60 and the other realms basically just throwing in the towel. I don't blame Hero for that. Rescu has led massive zergs for years. Xyorman led massive zergs for years. It's only the Euro Mid and Albs that seem to have quit, truly a testament to how thoroughly Hero impacted them.
The problem is this creates an imbalance in the US Primetime zergs. Specifically, Hib has multiple relics more often than not. Why should the US players be punished because the Euro's quit? Hero gets to take Relics because there is rarely a defense. When was the last time the US Primetime had relics taken from behind relic gates? It just doesn't happen because it takes too long to fight through all the defenses. Not even Hero is capable of taking the relics when the US zergs begin. He's always left to PvE them before the zergs start.
Why should relics be PvE'd?
Simultaneous to that however is that Hero shouldn't be punished because the Euro's quit fighting him.
Solution: Revamp the relic system. Remove the keep requirements from it. Instead, have a system based on player kills.
This system would work as follows:
1) Relics inside keeps can be taken at any point simply by taking the keep.
2) Relics behind relic gates require a certain number of deaths by a realm within the previous 2 hours. Once those kills are achieved, the relic's can be directly attacked. This kill count is based on data that already exists on kills per hour. If the number of kills in the previous 2 hours exceeds some threshold (such as in the top 80% of kills the week before), then the relic gates open. If not, they remain closed and untakeable.
To give an example, in the week of 10/18 there were 16,275 mid deaths. There are 84 2 hour periods in a week. This means the average number of kills per 2 consecutive hours were 193.75 deaths per 2 hours. Obviously this varies dramatically by time frame. During the nighttime hours EST there are probably fewer than 100 deaths per 2 hours, US primetime I bet there are 500 deaths in 2 hours. So, suppose the threshold was set to 350 deaths. Then the relic could only be taken if, in the last 2 hours, there were 350 Midgard players killed. Then, for 1 hour, the mid relic gates can be attacked. Both of them. Again that's just a guess, the actual number however can be known.
What are the advantages to this system?
Well, for starters you won't see relics being PvE'd, either by Hero (30k, 2 relics, 3 hours were his stats when he took relics the day before last), but also by the US primetime zergs after, Seoul in the early morning hours, etc. Simply put, the relics aren't taken when defended, they're only taken when not defended. And it's not like the OF days where 200 people would log in and epic fights would be had after an ambush. It's just straight up, indifference because people go to bed or just have flat out quit.
Another, less obvious, advantage though is that it could lead to breaking up the Hero zerg naturally.
If the relic bonus was boosted again, something I think should happen if you're gonna make a true RvR requirement to take, then they should be worth fighting over. Hero can continue zerging like he does if he wants. But he can't take relics (assuming a good number of deaths is set). Or, he could break up his zerg into smaller components, then once the relic can be taken pile up and hit the relic hard.
This could really improve action Euro time where you won't see people bailing to run in the Hero zerg as now they aren't even getting to PvE relics, they're just straight wasting time. Still, they may do it and nothing can stop that, but giving an incentive to break up isn't bad.
It would also spice up US Primetime.
Right now, it is completely impossible for US Primetime to hit relic temples. Giving a kill requirement, rather than a keep one, opens them up to more attacks. This can cause the US time to actually have different fights than what has been typically happening for years now. Hibs defending relics, Mids/Albs sometimes taking sometimes not. Eventually someone PvEs them if they aren't taken during the primetime.
In an effort to prolong fights to help get Hero defenders more time to mount a defense, we've made it so that, realistically, US Primetime can only take 2 keeps before the night's over.
Simply put, no one enjoys PvEing relics. I don't even think Hero does. I think everyone would rather have quality fights, but right now there is no incentive to break up the Hero zerg. it simply is the easiest way for most people to make RPs. This in turn has lowered Hero's RPs so that he makes the majority of his RPs during US Primetime as those are his biggest fights of the week.
Other changes would be required if this happened obviously. Relic guards should be weakened as the relic fight now is taking place over hours throughout the realm, and then at the temple, rather than just a bunch of keeps taken then the temple.
People do show more willingness to defend the relic keeps/temples than they do random keeps that may or may not lead to relics.
This thought can use work and I hope that people make quality suggestions to improve it and that it's taken seriously. Because, frankly, the game is dying again. Euro primetime flat out sucks. I don't know anyone who enjoys it outside of the Hero zergers, who make up a small percentage of the game. It negatively impacts US Primetime players and we can't even change it because we're doing things.
Even if the Hero zerg continues how it does now, at least the impact on US Primetime is reduced because frankly, it blows fighting against a zerg with 6 relics knowing that they have them because a player in a different time zone can just take them at will because there is so little defense.
This also shouldn't impact keep fight incentives as the RP bonuses from attacking/defending are substantial. US fights over keeps because of the RPs, not relics. I believe Hero hits keeps for the same reason. You're not weakening the purpose of keeps, but even if you think you are, there are changes that could potentially be made to adjust for that.
Relics shouldn't be PvE'd.
Post edited by Amurdora on
Comments
1. How will relic raiders know how close they are to opening the relic gates when they won't know their current number of kills, nor will they know the number of kills they need. Making "progress" will be frustrating and unengaging.
2. This will take the "don't-feed-Herorious" argument to new heights. Anyone who is perceived as a weak contender in the Frontiers would face even more criticism for "giving away kills" to Herorious.
I can appreciate the first argument and there can be ways to deal with that in some form. But the second, Euro's already play the "don't-feed-Hero" game and it's US primetime that suffers for it. It's not like the old days where the entire server played about the same time. Because Euro primetime is trash, US primetime is impacted. Also, PvEing relics is just lame. Then of course there's the added, it's not a set in stone number but one that varies. So when people dodge one week it's easier the next.
Or you could just let him PVE himself to bordem and wait for him to log. I'm sure you could get some peeps to do Curse, 9-10, or OW while he is out PVEing.
What I mean by the 2nd argument is that in addition to the current "don't-feed-Herorious-realmpoints" you will get "don't-feed-Herorious-kills-so-he-can-unlock-relics". People are quick to be judgemental about things like this. Your suggestion is not just an offensive requirement for Hibernia to meet, but also a defensive strategy for Midgard/Albion. They can deny Hibernia access to their relics by not engaging Hibernia (and blame realmmates who fail to do so regardless of playstyle). This is the opposite of what we want.
Furthermore, there were no groups that changed Realms to defend. (irc, realmtimer, insert what you want)
But these days, Hiberna has a strong zerg at US prime time and the other two realms don't and on Friday and Saturday the cow on top.
Afaik, hib has been "dominating" US prime for max one year (since EC and the pbae changes).
And afaik, realm timers have been taken out for 5+ years, so they are completely unrelated. Yhere is this completely erroneous argument that realm timers have anything to do with realm balance. BS decided to bring them back to shut up the players thinking it would do anything, but we see it didn't actually acomplish anything.
The main issue that sucks for Mids and Albs US players, which is Amur's point of his OP, is that all the work put into taking relics from Hib is useless because the Euros albs and mids just let Hero take them back right away. Relics aren't easy to take when they are defended, especially when hib is defending.
So it sucks to see what you worked towards form3 hours the night before taken away with zero effort.
US players are not scared to switch realms and defeat Hero. Like you said, easy RPs, Like they did last night. What we are saying is during US Mids are Albs take the relics back just to have Hero take them back with ease.
Just take away heavy tanks ability to climb walls.
I would make it so if you don't have LOS then heals have a 50% reduction. Add on top of that disease reduces them 50% more for a total of 75% reduction. It makes wall climbers think twice about entering a keep. Climbing into a keep should be a risk vs reward.
Edit: Many argue that Heavy tanks are balanced right now. I would argue they are balanced for open field and not siege. During a siege they are almost invincible as they have time to run back out of LOS for full heals or have enough healers where they can live through most damage (barring a dedicated /assist train). Many will argue to remove climb walls from heavy tanks (This is another discussion). Heavy tanks should never have been given climb walls but if they are to keep it then there needs to be a downside for it. It can't be free reign to be invincible and kill everything. There needs to be a penalty to even it out.
If you were 8v8 then you could get that on Agramon, if you were 1v1 then people would leave the fight between those 2 and not pile in and if you wanted zerg action then something was set up where say Hibs would take Berks and Mid Eras and hey presto instant action for all sides.
Here we have stealth zergs, groups killing soloers, breaking ports and one huge idiot with an even bigger group of idiots following him who would rather PvE his way around the frontiers.
The server population can't sustain the play style being inflicted on it and the player base needs to get clever with how it sets out the game.
Oh yeah, and look at heavy tanks in keeps.
0 rps for bg running over solos
0 rps bg running over small man
0 rps bg running over 8man
Your Zerg has 80 defenders 20 (25% of possible rps made) increasing back to 100% when odds are even
Only way to change them is to hurt them they either quit or change sides both has the positive outcome of lowering his followers
Thegenerallee-shadowblade
Misleadinglooks-warrior
Grumblejr-hero
Danceswithdebuffs-champion
Faatkid-druid
since when do the mids and albs no longer bring the relics back so easily?
15 minutes are too short to have an effect and they are only alibi timers and to be honest, you would only need them for one group, all other groups are not decisive.
Sure, but when it was easy to get relics back, nobody complained, now it's different.
Eu Mids and Albs are bored to death by Herorius, the same procedure every day for years. he starts an hour before prime time, interrupts the porter chains and conquers a few keeps. After that, groups and solos are hunted on EV.
Would take some balancing but would work.
Turning soloers in super-buffed up versions of the class isn't a viable solution, plus it's likely impossible for BS to actually implement in the game.
That would help some. Hero does these handicap takes where he allows you to port into the keep by not taking towers. But then, him and a dozen wall climbers camp the front door and posterns long before the outer door goes down so you can't get out to defend the walls anyways.
The recent patch making outer Gates easy to open actually helps Hero and makes it harder to get inside in enough time to defend. That's why he keeps the keeps low level.
Suggested fix: increase gate hit points exponentially based on relics not owned. Each extra relic owned causes keeps to lower level cap. Ex. 4 extra relics? Max level of keep w/ relic is level 6. Got 6 relics? your siege does 1/3 damage it normally would.
Hero won't fight open field unless significantly out numbering opponent. Keeping him or making significantly harder for him to pve keeps will help fix some of the issues.
More open field fights bring action resets faster. Last night we ran into the mid zerg twice in 5 minutes because they could reset and re enter the fray faster.
The RP disparity has been ridiculous since the patch. I have to say I said this would happen, that Hero was sandbagging until after the patch. Since then they've been averaging 5 relics and close to double rps of mids/albs. Top 50 rp earned/week are usually about 80-85% hib.
I appreciated the stun feedback stormlord changes but really at this point the only suggestions I have to assist in balance and people wanting to defend vs hibs would be to give mid a stun dps class and remove the ability for people to log in to under siege keeps (absent the 5 minute relog timer).
@Koe I don't think just handing out baseline stuns to Mid casters will solve anything. You mentionned the new storms, which make baseline nuking in keeps way less effective. Baseline nuking isn't that big of a deal when thinking open field zerg fights, which is what most of the top RP earners are doing right now.
So giving stuns to mid casters won't change anything to the RP leaderboard.
Your non-assiting players argument, I don't understand. How would it be different on any caster? Just ae nuke/dot anything and collect RPs.
I got to say that zerg RPs are completely off the charts. I know we are in bonus season, but zerging hands out wayyyyyyyyy too many RPs when you think of the effort that goes into making these RPs.
I mean there's a duo taking an EV tower that belongs to your realm. Swing by as a full group, kill them in 2 seconds, bam 5k RPs bonus.
Defense RPs are completely out of whack. So what happens on most night is that US Hib BG will eventually log. Then mids say "Hey it's our chance at a relic!!", while all the hibs just tell themselves "I really hope the mid BG goes for NGed so I can make a quick 100K RPs in 30 minutes".
For sure you'll see most online hibs go defend NGed, it's the easiest RPs of the night. And that's because defending keeps is eay too lucrative in RPs to not participate.
Also, a point you fail to mention and that is prob 20x more relevant than baseline nuke, is that HIB has the most flexible bomb group. It is the only realm that has a debuff caster and pbae caster in the same spec. Also, your other bomber (Mana eld) is also using baseline heat, so no need to double debuff. Add a mentalist with ST and good nukes and you have a really good caster train for many different situations. In zerg fights that's really important as you can get bombs for tower/lord room fights but get the debuff nuke in keeps/open field fights.
It's a hib specificity that is not present on other realms.
It's also a population problem. Nothing you give to mids will make them win fights when they are at 3 to 1 odds.
Also, @Amurdora ,great ideas!
and then alb ??
minny-sorc-friar-cleric-earththug-pally then fill lol and i guess another sorc for damage and root
But you get single and ae disease, ae roots, more forms of cc, twice as many instant heals, 2 sojs, 2 demezzers, casted ae amnesia, but I guess you forgot about this? Like the important things to have in a group?
Just sounds like are making excuses.
Hib rolls over the other realms because they usually have more pop. Leegen had a tank heavy BG last week, rolled the hib BG with less numbers 3-4 times in a row like it was nothing.
What you can do is incentivize them. PvEing relics is the focus of this discussion, not which realm gets what abilities and how to balance them. Let's stay on topic please. If you have suggestions on how to make this a better idea or other ideas on how to fix the current realm situation I'm all for it, but class balance isn't going to make that happen and never has in 20 years.
As to some specific points in this thread I highly agree with and don't remember if I mentioned above.
1) I agree completely that the lack of Hib zerg in US Prime has covered for Hero running Euro the way he does. But with Jedi stepping up and leading a regular Hib zerg (and Licorce and Ramrik and anyone else I've forgotten, sorry) it's become a real problem. It's been nice fighting Hibs regularly after years and years of nothing but Mid and Albs. The Hib US Prime players shouldn't be punished.
I just imagine scenarios based on this where Hero can't PvE relics, but then US Prime can fight over them. Be they in keeps or at the relic temples. The US Prime is deprived of some extremely fun fights, both at the relic temples and carrying relics home, because the game has become so dominated by trying to make things easier for Euro defenders. Keeps take too long to break into. Keep fights with two zergs defending take an hour or more to fight out. Great for RPs. Horrible for fighting over Relics.
I would love to fight big fights at the Relic Temple once a week and have huge battles as relics are carried home. To my knowledge, no relic temple has been opened during US Primetime this year. Hero has PvE'd keeps until the zergs hop on, but after 8pm EST when all 3 zergs running, to my knowledge, no one has been able to get to the Relic Temples. Even if I'm wrong, I zerg more nights than not and to see and hear nothing about either says a lot.
2) Only one sever like Oaken mentioned is a huge problem. Multiple servers used to provide a balance. Not perfect, but at least some. We can't escape Hero now. The Euro's, generally, refuse to fight him and the US players are punished for that. I understand the argument that @John_Broadsword and crew make about this being temporary, but it's not. I look at the last 52 weeks of the game on Excidio and see that only 6 weeks of those 52 has Hib not lead the game in RPs, usually by a substantial fraction. That's not balance. That's not temporary. If anyone has the files from that site dating back to when it was created we could see a 5 year chart and I imagine it would show about the same thing.
This isn't caused by class imbalance. It's caused by the imbalance created by the Hero zerg. To their credit, Broadsword has tried several methods to change this. They've made keeps harder. Made stormlord changes that penalize tank groups when used correctly. None of these is working however because the Euro's just plain refuse to play the game against Hero. I've watched Anna run 2fg into the solo zones time and again chasing down soloers while avoiding Hero. That has 0 to do with class balance. It's time to acknowledge that Hero and the other Euro zerg leaders have permanently broken Euro time by the way they play.
I would love to see a change made that made relics easier to take in US Prime and harder to take in Euro prime. The US players don't deserve to be punished for the Euro's playstyle. Making the relic temples tied to enemy kills, rather than PvEing keeps, is a great way to do this. You still get the keep fights we have in both the Euro and Mid time zones. Hero, even with 6 relics, demonstrates the ability to make realm points so you aren't taking away his RPs. But you're giving the chance to the US to actually combat the relic bonuses in more effective ways as the Hibs now have to defend both the Temples (which are far weaker than a fully defended keep) and the keeps. The relics will become more dynamic and the US will get the chance to have great fights centered on the relics rather than the, increasingly stale again, fights we've been having for the last 6 months.
On to now and maybe it is time to redefine relics and their role in the game. How they benefit a realm, how they are kept in a realm, and they are taken by realm.
Anyway, my credit card changed, I didn't update it and my subs have run out. I hardly ever played tbh, basically because I couldn't motivate myself to play a game I still like, but I don't enjoy this version of the game now being played.
This is a big part of why I let my subs run out.
Yes I'm in agreement on hib is easier to defend and thats where the easiest rps are made. AOE, especially dots, is out of wack open field. It seems ment dots hit harder than say bd dots but that's just experience.
I thought I was making the same its easier to do a hib debuff group argument but maybe you took the time to spell it out more clearly.
My only sorta argument is that mids especially have a difficult time defending vs even numbers. Albs seem to be able to repel with even defenders or close to it (Tie should go to the defense), but mids seem to lose more oft than not even with a lot of defenders. Possibly it's the players but I don't know. It's always been easier for me to make rps on hib.
Maybe realm loyalty bonuses which would cause people to pick a side and if hib, you'd have the pain of watching mids/albs play with more constant underpop bonuses. Mids and albs would be more willing to play with a more permanent underpop bonus. That might even things out more than you'd think. What makes Hero so stupidly OP is that even albs/mids play in his zerg because they can't get rps elsewhere (defending vs him).
Or put relics back to 10% each but if you have 3+ relics (yours plus any other) you get no rp/bp underpop bonuses.
Also, I don't think the under populated bonus will entice anyone to defend with the way the RP pool is calculated. Maybe they could add a way that people gain more in the RP pool for being in a keep under siege. Some classes show up and try to help but don't do enough of the things that get calculated in.
As for relics, maybe make them reset after a week with no take-back attempts.