1.127 Pendragon Test Server Hot Fix #1

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Comments

  • edited August 17 PM
    Dreamscape wrote: »
    Also, with the feedback does it provide immunity or can two people assist stun so one of them lands?

    If is like Otherworldly Necky or Ceremonial Bracer there is no immunity.

    Which is why I applaud the way they came at the problem but I know when I am on the wall atleast 3 casters are just /face holding stun hoping for an easy kill. Immunity timers are needed but I will give it a try before I make another post about 10 min immunity on casted stun :wink:

    When you watch Teddies streams you can watch him do it, "target not in view" purple spam at keep sieges.
    Post edited by Stoopiduser on
  • edited August 17 PM
    Double post.
    Post edited by Stoopiduser on
  • If it works like regular feedback (ow neck or skald) the second one should land.
  • edited August 17 PM
    Last week was the first time I’ve logged into the game in a very long time. The main reason I left the game was due to assassin revamp which is another story altogether. My main concern at the moment is archers in the current state of the game. I had a chance to rvr with both my scout and hunter recently and was frankly surprised on how low bow damage was especially on the openers. I spoke with a couple of archers via chat who told me that most don’t even have 50 in bow. To me this should be sending up redflags. My hope is to make high bow specialization attractive for players who want to be bow eccentric.

    I watched a youtube video of an archer who I thought played very well using every tool available to kite the opposing player. The archer was barely able to get the other player to half health using his shots. The archer reset the fight on several occasions using bolo and patella shots, his ML abilities and kiting abilities. The archer simply couldn’t do enough damage to the assassin to win the fight. The assassin finally blurred to the archer and utterly destroyed him in melee.

    I was hoping with the patch around the corner that broadsword could potentially look at the higher level shots and adjust as needed. Given the current state of templates and the amount of survivability within the game it is extremely difficult to drop anyone let alone casters. Archers have no way to increase bow damage other than falcon’s eye. The benefit this realm ability provides is random and frankly buggy.

    Thanks for taking time to read this.
    Thalia
    Post edited by Thalia on
  • Gotta say, after playing during EU prime for a bit, I can completely see why Albs / Mids get destroyed. No coordination. No assist trains. Straight tab target and hope you can kill someone while standing in LOS. While I think the Stormlord changes are interesting, I don't see it helping much until players pick up their game. Going to stick to NA prime because this is just beyond sad to watch.
  • if thats the case minstrels will just spam stun and it only lands once feedback is dispelled
  • Thalia wrote: »
    Last week was the first time I’ve logged into the game in a very long time. The main reason I left the game was due to assassin revamp which is another story altogether. My main concern at the moment is archers in the current state of the game. I had a chance to rvr with both my scout and hunter recently and was frankly surprised on how low bow damage was especially on the openers. I spoke with a couple of archers via chat who told me that most don’t even have 50 in bow. To me this should be sending up redflags. My hope is to make high bow specialization attractive for players who want to be bow eccentric.

    I watched a youtube video of an archer who I thought played very well using every tool available to kite the opposing player. The archer was barely able to get the other player to half health using his shots. The archer reset the fight on several occasions using bolo and patella shots, his ML abilities and kiting abilities. The archer simply couldn’t do enough damage to the assassin to win the fight. The assassin finally blurred to the archer and utterly destroyed him in melee.

    I was hoping with the patch around the corner that broadsword could potentially look at the higher level shots and adjust as needed. Given the current state of templates and the amount of survivability within the game it is extremely difficult to drop anyone let alone casters. Archers have no way to increase bow damage other than falcon’s eye. The benefit this realm ability provides is random and frankly buggy.

    Thanks for taking time to read this.
    Thalia

    Glad you brought this up. I have been asking for either a stronger lvl 50 crit shot or make it so having over 61 total archery increases damage. At the moment rr1 archer with 50 archery + 11 from template hits as hard as a rr12 with 50+11+11. At the point why template + to archery?
  • Lff wrote: »
    if thats the case minstrels will just spam stun and it only lands once feedback is dispelled

    they have 10sec reuse timer on stun ...
  • Thalia wrote: »
    Last week was the first time I’ve logged into the game in a very long time. The main reason I left the game was due to assassin revamp which is another story altogether. My main concern at the moment is archers in the current state of the game. I had a chance to rvr with both my scout and hunter recently and was frankly surprised on how low bow damage was especially on the openers. I spoke with a couple of archers via chat who told me that most don’t even have 50 in bow. To me this should be sending up redflags. My hope is to make high bow specialization attractive for players who want to be bow eccentric.

    I watched a youtube video of an archer who I thought played very well using every tool available to kite the opposing player. The archer was barely able to get the other player to half health using his shots. The archer reset the fight on several occasions using bolo and patella shots, his ML abilities and kiting abilities. The archer simply couldn’t do enough damage to the assassin to win the fight. The assassin finally blurred to the archer and utterly destroyed him in melee.

    I was hoping with the patch around the corner that broadsword could potentially look at the higher level shots and adjust as needed. Given the current state of templates and the amount of survivability within the game it is extremely difficult to drop anyone let alone casters. Archers have no way to increase bow damage other than falcon’s eye. The benefit this realm ability provides is random and frankly buggy.

    Thanks for taking time to read this.
    Thalia

    I have no problem, increase bow damage, Just decrease weapon skill or remove remedy.
  • KoeKoe
    edited August 18 PM
    Scouts are bottom of the food chain. Melee hunter is still strong, and I dont think this patch makes Ranger any less powerful (a 30 second pet scare is actually a Ranger buff in that you can't just re-summon your pet after 15 seconds).

    What I have observed (and maybe what Broadsword has confirmed, not sure), is that stealths for the most part just group up, and while it's a valid argument that nerfing them just results in even more grouping up, if you buff a line/make archery hit harder, they don't stop grouping.

    Assassins and Archers can pick their targets, and get away from almost anything. They should not be top of the food chain. The assassin/archer inter-stealth balance is more difficult. I think most archers will die to most anything else (minus a well played ranger/hunter with a decent melee spec). Assassins can go to to toe with most anything, especially at higher rr. I think their snare poison should be nerfed so it doesn't stack with melee snares/disease and maybe a slight WS decrease. Total of 35%-40% snare, not 80%-85%
    Post edited by Koe on
  • edited August 18 PM
    Seeing as we can all agree Wizard needs something and everyone is ok with banshee getting a 30% debuff for a 223DD how about wizards get the same 30% for the 219DD spec nuke in Ice and Fire.. maybe a 20% in earth?

    Ok 25% if they just increase the debuff on the current spells.

    How is noone talking about the still insane debuff on Banshee?
    Post edited by Stoopiduser on
  • edited August 18 PM
    Seeing as we can all agree Wizard needs something and everyone is ok with banshee getting a 30% debuff for a 223DD how about wizards get the same 30% for the 219DD spec nuke in Ice and Fire.. maybe a 20% in earth?

    How is noone talking about the still insane debuff on Banshee?

    oh, since when do we all agree on that ? stating that is a false premise at best.

    my ice wiz is lower RR than my curse lock, but outdamages him in every scenario (except bolts) and has more utility on top of it.
    Post edited by Muylae on
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • @Stoopiduser Nobody thinks that gving bainshee a Body debuff is a good idea. It went from 50%, down to 30%, but they will eventually remove it.

    Do you follow the official discord? There is a unanimous consensus that the body debuff isn't a good idea.
  • Muylae wrote: »
    my ice wiz is lower RR than my curse lock, but outdamages him in every scenario (except bolts) and has more utility on top of it.

    You mean when a wzard has to spec 47+ for anything close to damage.

    As for a Warlock, wow.

    You mean except when you debuff your own targets or use free MoC? right? you are damn right you should do less.

    And when they dont want to do damage they can heal better than a friar with cleric absorb AND not use power after throwing down an AoE dot.. and if you want you can throw 4 dots with a 700dmg follow up for fun.

    Warlocks can be insane damage dealers or utility you really have no room to talk.


  • Muylae wrote: »
    Seeing as we can all agree Wizard needs something and everyone is ok with banshee getting a 30% debuff for a 223DD how about wizards get the same 30% for the 219DD spec nuke in Ice and Fire.. maybe a 20% in earth?

    How is noone talking about the still insane debuff on Banshee?

    oh, since when do we all agree on that ? stating that is a false premise at best.

    my ice wiz is lower RR than my curse lock, but outdamages him in every scenario (except bolts) and has more utility on top of it.

    I fail to see how a Wizard has more utility than a Warlock.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.
  • Thalia wrote: »
    Last week was the first time I’ve logged into the game in a very long time. The main reason I left the game was due to assassin revamp which is another story altogether. My main concern at the moment is archers in the current state of the game. I had a chance to rvr with both my scout and hunter recently and was frankly surprised on how low bow damage was especially on the openers. I spoke with a couple of archers via chat who told me that most don’t even have 50 in bow. To me this should be sending up redflags. My hope is to make high bow specialization attractive for players who want to be bow eccentric.

    I watched a youtube video of an archer who I thought played very well using every tool available to kite the opposing player. The archer was barely able to get the other player to half health using his shots. The archer reset the fight on several occasions using bolo and patella shots, his ML abilities and kiting abilities. The archer simply couldn’t do enough damage to the assassin to win the fight. The assassin finally blurred to the archer and utterly destroyed him in melee.

    I was hoping with the patch around the corner that broadsword could potentially look at the higher level shots and adjust as needed. Given the current state of templates and the amount of survivability within the game it is extremely difficult to drop anyone let alone casters. Archers have no way to increase bow damage other than falcon’s eye. The benefit this realm ability provides is random and frankly buggy.

    Thanks for taking time to read this.
    Thalia

    I have no problem, increase bow damage, Just decrease weapon skill or remove remedy.

    Without remedy archers get completely smashed by assassins plus its very easy in today daoc to outlast the remedy timer with mez poison and buffed templates.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    Ice Wiz doesn't fit into any group setup outside a zerg PUG setup (alb body train beats any other caster train alb w/ utility) or the alb bomb group (inc nerf btw). I'll give you that the ice Wiz gets better RUT abilities, no debating rr5 or the cloak, but warlocks or wizards arent used for aoe root typically (sorc and runie get bolt range ae root). A curse lock (unsure of @Muylae curse spec) still has access to heals, better melee abs (even subspec WC offers better abs than the baseline), Ichor, 40% power charge, instant DD chamber for rupts, outranges a wizard easily.

    After the patch, a curse Lock can even join a spirit train w/ a 209 delve spec spirit DD.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • You can NOT compare classes on a 1 to 1 basis because they are NOT mirrored. The best way to compare classes is in a group setting. This is why Shoke suggested Boradsword should balance classes based on 8v8, not 1v1, 4v4, or zergvzerg. Yes, they have to keep other play styles in mind to prevent one or two classes from dominating. However, without mirroring classes, there's no way to balance them without compounding other classes together.

    That said, I agree Wizards are lackluster in Alb groups when comparing them to their "classical" counterparts: Runemasters and Eldritches. There is no viable Heat, Matter, or Cold debuff train that can outperform or be on par with the Body debuff train on Alb. This is in direct contrast with Hib / Mid where multiple debuff trains are viable (Heat, Energy, Cold for Hib and Cold, Spirit, Energy for Mid). Even with the proposed Heat debuff in the Matter line, the DPS output is only marginally better than the DPS output in a Body train while sacrificing a significant amount of utility (pets, stat debuffs, lifetap, CC, etc.). This only reinforces why players are against giving Hib another viable magic debuff train by adding a Body debuff to Bainshees. Considering the Body debuff train on Alb generally outperforms Mid/Hib magic debuff trains, it may be time to look into transferring some of that utility to other classes so other magic debuff trains can become viable.
  • Claw attacks in all 3 specializations have had their power costs increased by 33%.

    I mean if you think about it, getting power these days is not really difficult on most vamps, in an 8v8 setting you really just rotate a couple spells, granted you may have a powerleaking peeler stuck to you in most settings, i really only see the solo vamp getting hurt by this.

    vw change nice
    necro change nice
    ranger r5 (what took you so long)

    pretty satisfied with the changes so far, i guess the supremacy change is a bit annoying, but i dont really min max so dont really care in the long run.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    ice wiz has a better nuke too, same delve but with ice resist debuff and they have a ranged ae DD that also debuffs ice, making it the only pbaoe spec that can AE resist debuff their own pbaoe damage i think ? also they can subspec for a NS or subspec for a baseline bolt, that with the 3 set bonus is for all purpose very close to a spec bolt. yes i do think ice wizards are a better overall class than curse locks. and i do think that ranged ae dd with ice resist debuff + AE disease + rr5 + ice pbaoe will outdamage curse pbaoe + insta pbaoe chamber by some margin.
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    Ice Wiz doesn't fit into any group setup outside a zerg PUG setup (alb body train beats any other caster train alb w/ utility) or the alb bomb group (inc nerf btw). I'll give you that the ice Wiz gets better RUT abilities, no debating rr5 or the cloak, but warlocks or wizards arent used for aoe root typically (sorc and runie get bolt range ae root). A curse lock (unsure of @Muylae curse spec) still has access to heals, better melee abs (even subspec WC offers better abs than the baseline), Ichor, 40% power charge, instant DD chamber for rupts, outranges a wizard easily.

    After the patch, a curse Lock can even join a spirit train w/ a 209 delve spec spirit DD.

    a typical curse lock doesn't get heals or ABS buff with the typical 45 curse, 48 curse, 49 curse or 50 curse + rest in hex for the 40 % power and HEAVELY nerfed uninteruptable primer. and if you spec 50 curse for the last pbaoe, that's still lower delve than all the other pbaoe classes their pbaoe, for all purpose you don't have an uninteruptable primer anymore that is usable.

    ...
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Muylae wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    Ice Wiz doesn't fit into any group setup outside a zerg PUG setup (alb body train beats any other caster train alb w/ utility) or the alb bomb group (inc nerf btw). I'll give you that the ice Wiz gets better RUT abilities, no debating rr5 or the cloak, but warlocks or wizards arent used for aoe root typically (sorc and runie get bolt range ae root). A curse lock (unsure of @Muylae curse spec) still has access to heals, better melee abs (even subspec WC offers better abs than the baseline), Ichor, 40% power charge, instant DD chamber for rupts, outranges a wizard easily.

    After the patch, a curse Lock can even join a spirit train w/ a 209 delve spec spirit DD.

    a typical curse lock doesn't get heals or ABS buff with the typical 45 curse, 48 curse, 49 curse or 50 curse + rest in hex for the 40 % power and HEAVELY nerfed uninteruptable primer. and if you spec 50 curse for the last pbaoe, that's still lower delve than all the other pbaoe classes their pbaoe, for all purpose you don't have an uninteruptable primer anymore that is usable.

    ...

    My lock is 50 curse, 17/11 split spec, gives better abs buff then the baseline plus those tools. Ya the UI primer is nerfed which is why as you see I didn't even mention it. The PBAE does lower dmg, yes, but we're comparing utility not DPS. Still get a decent 134? devle single target heal (on a list caster w/ acuity buff mind you, heals for 350+), which seems more valuable on a caster than any of the DPS ability a wizard has over a Warlock.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Muylae wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    ice wiz has a better nuke too, same delve but with ice resist debuff and they have a ranged ae DD that also debuffs ice, making it the only pbaoe spec that can AE resist debuff their own pbaoe damage i think ? also they can subspec for a NS or subspec for a baseline bolt, that with the 3 set bonus is for all purpose very close to a spec bolt. yes i do think ice wizards are a better overall class than curse locks. and i do think that ranged ae dd with ice resist debuff + AE disease + rr5 + ice pbaoe will outdamage curse pbaoe + insta pbaoe chamber by some margin.

    Warlock gets 209 delve spirit DD. I'm gonna take Warlock pbae, ichor, heals, chambers > Wizard ae 10%? debuff, disease, rr5, ae disease.

    What group comp would you suggest to fit an ice wizard into? A cold train on alb severely lacks utility compared to any assist train on Mid that a curse Warlock would be a part of.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Muylae wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    Ice Wiz doesn't fit into any group setup outside a zerg PUG setup (alb body train beats any other caster train alb w/ utility) or the alb bomb group (inc nerf btw). I'll give you that the ice Wiz gets better RUT abilities, no debating rr5 or the cloak, but warlocks or wizards arent used for aoe root typically (sorc and runie get bolt range ae root). A curse lock (unsure of @Muylae curse spec) still has access to heals, better melee abs (even subspec WC offers better abs than the baseline), Ichor, 40% power charge, instant DD chamber for rupts, outranges a wizard easily.

    After the patch, a curse Lock can even join a spirit train w/ a 209 delve spec spirit DD.

    a typical curse lock doesn't get heals or ABS buff with the typical 45 curse, 48 curse, 49 curse or 50 curse + rest in hex for the 40 % power and HEAVELY nerfed uninteruptable primer. and if you spec 50 curse for the last pbaoe, that's still lower delve than all the other pbaoe classes their pbaoe, for all purpose you don't have an uninteruptable primer anymore that is usable.

    ...

    My lock is 50 curse, 17/11 split spec, gives better abs buff then the baseline plus those tools. Ya the UI primer is nerfed which is why as you see I didn't even mention it. The PBAE does lower dmg, yes, but we're comparing utility not DPS. Still get a decent 134? devle single target heal (on a list caster w/ acuity buff mind you, heals for 350+), which seems more valuable on a caster than any of the DPS ability a wizard has over a Warlock.

    i am 49 curse / 22 hex, (i've tried 45 curse, 48 curses, 49 curse, 50 curse, rest in hex) i didn't go 50 curse / 16 hex rest wc, because when doing uninteruptable pbaoe my damage was actually lower than at 49/22 and my power consumption was much worse, going oop in 3-4 casts.

    and i found that my CL heals did better than what i got out of WC by a large margin.

    warlocks, not having baseline abilities outside of the curse spec get very little out of their side spec when going 50 curse. and when going wc or hex, you might as well not have baseline abilities and the benefit of a side spec becomes neglectable.

    and you say 50 / 17 / 11

    to even get a better buff than the 10 % abs buff from a normal caster, the 17 has to be WC, which gives a 13 % abs instead of a default 10 % abs buff for casters, in which case i have no idea what the 11 in hex gives you. no more 40 % power chamber and no more uninteruptable primer that is usable. and alb armsemen and paladins cry about the fact that their better abs accounts for nothing compared to warriors.

    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Hex Lock will be the new Meta. Matter trains will rule all.
  • Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Muylae wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    ice wiz has a better nuke too, same delve but with ice resist debuff and they have a ranged ae DD that also debuffs ice, making it the only pbaoe spec that can AE resist debuff their own pbaoe damage i think ? also they can subspec for a NS or subspec for a baseline bolt, that with the 3 set bonus is for all purpose very close to a spec bolt. yes i do think ice wizards are a better overall class than curse locks. and i do think that ranged ae dd with ice resist debuff + AE disease + rr5 + ice pbaoe will outdamage curse pbaoe + insta pbaoe chamber by some margin.

    Warlock gets 209 delve spirit DD. I'm gonna take Warlock pbae, ichor, heals, chambers > Wizard ae 10%? debuff, disease, rr5, ae disease.

    What group comp would you suggest to fit an ice wizard into? A cold train on alb severely lacks utility compared to any assist train on Mid that a curse Warlock would be a part of.

    both get a (with last patch notes) 209 delve spec nuke. but ice wizards get a 10 % ice debuff on top.

    you mention ichor. but that's an ra, not something from a specline.

    a cold train on alb ... is uncomon but i have seen an ice wizard / ice theurg / debuff train, which does ok damage, has pet spam and has ranged ae damage + ice debuff + ae disease + pbaoe... agree, it's not the optimal debuff train.

    i would say the best single target debuff train + pbaoe certainly belongs to hib with a (1 or 2) mana chanter + (2 or 1) mana eldritches for single target dps + pbaoe. i don't think there is an arguement. for overall single target + pbaoe dps

    for pbaoe + ranged AE + single target dps, ice wizard + debuffer wins, ice wizards can even go without debuffer and still wini in pbaoe + ranged AE and still do very good single target DD

    in no case a mid train + pbaoe will equal an alb or hib train + pbaoe imho. (yeah, cabalist pbaoe is a stange one that doesn't really fit in the same train as a ice wiz train, but having ranged AE dot, ranged AE DD and pbaoe... gives those casters an extra ability to stack damage on top of their pbaoe, a dot ticking on top of a pbaoe, it's just extra damage)


    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • when it comes to playing fire wizard .... hm

    yes, they have the highest delves, but hm, their delves have been eroded with the last patch. and they don't have much utility. hm. they had the best bolts, but not anymore. they had the best nukes, but the game seems to go the way of massive de buffing of nukes. so their 219 value 10 % debuff isn't anylonger the state of the art

    now BS wants to give matter wizards a heavy fire debuff ..

    which makes them a debuff train on an 'extra' earth wiz doing debuffs, who would then add baseline fire nukes ...

    i think fire wizards were ment to be the ultimate damage dealers in single target, AE damage and bolt damage, giving up utility to do that.

    and now their single target, bolt and AE damage seems to have been given up to be replaced by another person in the group adding to their damage by debuffing for them....

    i don't like the concept.

    i would have prefered having seen their debuff on their own nukes raised from 10 to 15 %. if people thought their damage was falling short. having a debuff train that depends on multiple chars working together vs having one person doing great damage but not equal to having multiple chars working together.

    ... whatever
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Hex Lock will be the new Meta. Matter trains will rule all.

    I am a little worried about the warlock changes.
  • Koe wrote: »
    Hex Lock will be the new Meta. Matter trains will rule all.

    I am a little worried about the warlock changes.

    Spirit train is still waaaaay better. No reason to run a Matter train for one class that only has a 179 delve baseline nuke. It might be fun for soloing though.
  • Muylae wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Muylae wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    ice wiz has a better nuke too, same delve but with ice resist debuff and they have a ranged ae DD that also debuffs ice, making it the only pbaoe spec that can AE resist debuff their own pbaoe damage i think ? also they can subspec for a NS or subspec for a baseline bolt, that with the 3 set bonus is for all purpose very close to a spec bolt. yes i do think ice wizards are a better overall class than curse locks. and i do think that ranged ae dd with ice resist debuff + AE disease + rr5 + ice pbaoe will outdamage curse pbaoe + insta pbaoe chamber by some margin.

    Warlock gets 209 delve spirit DD. I'm gonna take Warlock pbae, ichor, heals, chambers > Wizard ae 10%? debuff, disease, rr5, ae disease.

    What group comp would you suggest to fit an ice wizard into? A cold train on alb severely lacks utility compared to any assist train on Mid that a curse Warlock would be a part of.

    both get a (with last patch notes) 209 delve spec nuke. but ice wizards get a 10 % ice debuff on top.

    you mention ichor. but that's an ra, not something from a specline.

    a cold train on alb ... is uncomon but i have seen an ice wizard / ice theurg / debuff train, which does ok damage, has pet spam and has ranged ae damage + ice debuff + ae disease + pbaoe... agree, it's not the optimal debuff train.

    i would say the best single target debuff train + pbaoe certainly belongs to hib with a (1 or 2) mana chanter + (2 or 1) mana eldritches for single target dps + pbaoe. i don't think there is an arguement. for overall single target + pbaoe dps

    for pbaoe + ranged AE + single target dps, ice wizard + debuffer wins, ice wizards can even go without debuffer and still wini in pbaoe + ranged AE and still do very good single target DD

    in no case a mid train + pbaoe will equal an alb or hib train + pbaoe imho. (yeah, cabalist pbaoe is a stange one that doesn't really fit in the same train as a ice wiz train, but having ranged AE dot, ranged AE DD and pbaoe... gives those casters an extra ability to stack damage on top of their pbaoe, a dot ticking on top of a pbaoe, it's just extra damage)


    Alb Icer/PBAOE Train: Sorc / Cleric / Friar / Minst / Ice Wiz / Ice Wiz / Ice Thuerg / Pally

    Mid Energy/PBAOE Train: Pach / Sham / Augh / Skald / SM / SM / Curse Warlock / Valk

    The alb group might win the rr5 debate, but that mid caster train has 2x ichors, 3x pbae, as many pet classes as the Alb Group. 3x energy DD's w/ 50% debuff vastly out DPS's a wizard train w/o a 50% debuffer. I've never heard such a flawed argument in that regard. I'd even give the mid group an edge here, because the Thuerg should really only be on pet spams, not nuking with wizards, giving the Alb group a slight edge on pets but loss in DPS (especially if they have to swap between pet spams and DD's). The alb group might have more disease classes, but they're on your two primary DPS classes while the sham is free to disease and 3x assist train with 11 second single target stun on your soft avalonian wizards.

    Taking that mid setup over an alb bomb setup.

    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • puter wrote: »
    Koe wrote: »
    Hex Lock will be the new Meta. Matter trains will rule all.

    I am a little worried about the warlock changes.

    Spirit train is still waaaaay better. No reason to run a Matter train for one class that only has a 179 delve baseline nuke. It might be fun for soloing though.

    Curse Warlock spec DD is Spirit DPS now.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • edited August 19 PM
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    puter wrote: »
    Koe wrote: »
    Hex Lock will be the new Meta. Matter trains will rule all.

    I am a little worried about the warlock changes.

    Spirit train is still waaaaay better. No reason to run a Matter train for one class that only has a 179 delve baseline nuke. It might be fun for soloing though.

    Curse Warlock spec DD is Spirit DPS now.

    Exactly my point. The baseline DD will be Matter damage post patch. If anything, changing the damage type for the Cursed spec DD to Spirit strengthens the Spirit debuff train.
    Post edited by puter on
  • KoeKoe
    edited August 19 PM
    puter wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    puter wrote: »
    Koe wrote: »
    Hex Lock will be the new Meta. Matter trains will rule all.

    I am a little worried about the warlock changes.

    Spirit train is still waaaaay better. No reason to run a Matter train for one class that only has a 179 delve baseline nuke. It might be fun for soloing though.

    Curse Warlock spec DD is Spirit DPS now.

    Exactly my point. The baseline DD will be Matter damage post patch. If anything, changing the damage type for the Cursed spec DD to Spirit strengthens the Spirit debuff train.

    That's my concern about locks next patch. Spirit train is already incredibly strong with SM boost. They can also backfield slightly due extended range on that one, throwing NS and providing support. I'll grant you nobody is really playing locks now for a few reasons, but its a tough class to balance. It's like tics. You make them too group friendly and suddenly that r5 means you aren't going to beat an alb group in keep siege, etc. I think overall it will probably be a fine change because mids lack some of the burst damage of hib casters, but the way the changes stack up to mid v alb will be less clear. However, I think groups using 3 casters assisting on a 50% debuff train should have to significantly give up some other stuff to get there. That's enough focused dps that leet ish groups will just clean up (alb body or recent chanter groups). I don't know that average joe will really benefit from the change.
    Post edited by Koe on
  • Well having a spec matter nuke was really bad, it really served no purpose. That change does nerf WC locks in caster groups, but that combo was already rare.

    Now you could run a melee train, with a fw mauler running the class cloak to 50% matter debuff for the lock's nuke and Doom, but that's getting pretty specific.

    I don't think curse locks will ever get groups as much as their hex/WC specs, they just don't as much utility in open field.

    Running a good debuff train isn't what casuals do anyways, so it's a change that won't have that big of an effect in the end.

    Locks just get this incredibly useless r5, that's the only true change they should get.

    The issue is mid has sos on a skald and pin on the valk. Since they don't have a self peeling support class, that valk is pretty important, and you need SoS in today's zerging game. You end up with 3 caster comps, unless you run a bomb group which doesn't need the valk. With 3 casters, you'll never really have the space to fit the curse lock, and if running a bomb group, a supp SM is better.

    So all in all, it's a neutral change to mid imo. That change was mainly cause a matter spec nuke didn't make sense, but it's really not a big buff for anyone.
  • Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Muylae wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Muylae wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    ice wiz has a better nuke too, same delve but with ice resist debuff and they have a ranged ae DD that also debuffs ice, making it the only pbaoe spec that can AE resist debuff their own pbaoe damage i think ? also they can subspec for a NS or subspec for a baseline bolt, that with the 3 set bonus is for all purpose very close to a spec bolt. yes i do think ice wizards are a better overall class than curse locks. and i do think that ranged ae dd with ice resist debuff + AE disease + rr5 + ice pbaoe will outdamage curse pbaoe + insta pbaoe chamber by some margin.

    Warlock gets 209 delve spirit DD. I'm gonna take Warlock pbae, ichor, heals, chambers > Wizard ae 10%? debuff, disease, rr5, ae disease.

    What group comp would you suggest to fit an ice wizard into? A cold train on alb severely lacks utility compared to any assist train on Mid that a curse Warlock would be a part of.

    both get a (with last patch notes) 209 delve spec nuke. but ice wizards get a 10 % ice debuff on top.

    you mention ichor. but that's an ra, not something from a specline.

    a cold train on alb ... is uncomon but i have seen an ice wizard / ice theurg / debuff train, which does ok damage, has pet spam and has ranged ae damage + ice debuff + ae disease + pbaoe... agree, it's not the optimal debuff train.

    i would say the best single target debuff train + pbaoe certainly belongs to hib with a (1 or 2) mana chanter + (2 or 1) mana eldritches for single target dps + pbaoe. i don't think there is an arguement. for overall single target + pbaoe dps

    for pbaoe + ranged AE + single target dps, ice wizard + debuffer wins, ice wizards can even go without debuffer and still wini in pbaoe + ranged AE and still do very good single target DD

    in no case a mid train + pbaoe will equal an alb or hib train + pbaoe imho. (yeah, cabalist pbaoe is a stange one that doesn't really fit in the same train as a ice wiz train, but having ranged AE dot, ranged AE DD and pbaoe... gives those casters an extra ability to stack damage on top of their pbaoe, a dot ticking on top of a pbaoe, it's just extra damage)


    Alb Icer/PBAOE Train: Sorc / Cleric / Friar / Minst / Ice Wiz / Ice Wiz / Ice Thuerg / Pally

    Mid Energy/PBAOE Train: Pach / Sham / Augh / Skald / SM / SM / Curse Warlock / Valk

    The alb group might win the rr5 debate, but that mid caster train has 2x ichors, 3x pbae, as many pet classes as the Alb Group. 3x energy DD's w/ 50% debuff vastly out DPS's a wizard train w/o a 50% debuffer. I've never heard such a flawed argument in that regard. I'd even give the mid group an edge here, because the Thuerg should really only be on pet spams, not nuking with wizards, giving the Alb group a slight edge on pets but loss in DPS (especially if they have to swap between pet spams and DD's). The alb group might have more disease classes, but they're on your two primary DPS classes while the sham is free to disease and 3x assist train with 11 second single target stun on your soft avalonian wizards.

    Taking that mid setup over an alb bomb setup.

    where do you see the 3 energy dd's ?

    and listing ichor is really ... i don't know, if we have to go into all possible ra's that any class can have and list them ....
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Muylae wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Muylae wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Muylae wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    He said Curse lock. Which has a NS (super long range), a pbae and a spec nuke. At least the nuke makes sense now being spirit and not matter.

    Hex locks and WC locks are great. Curse locks are lackluster.

    An ice wiz has limited utility, but comparable to a curse lock tbh. THe R5 is better, the cloak is better, they get an ae disease, a better pbae, ae root, etc.

    Ice wiz > curse lock, I'd agree with that.

    ice wiz has a better nuke too, same delve but with ice resist debuff and they have a ranged ae DD that also debuffs ice, making it the only pbaoe spec that can AE resist debuff their own pbaoe damage i think ? also they can subspec for a NS or subspec for a baseline bolt, that with the 3 set bonus is for all purpose very close to a spec bolt. yes i do think ice wizards are a better overall class than curse locks. and i do think that ranged ae dd with ice resist debuff + AE disease + rr5 + ice pbaoe will outdamage curse pbaoe + insta pbaoe chamber by some margin.

    Warlock gets 209 delve spirit DD. I'm gonna take Warlock pbae, ichor, heals, chambers > Wizard ae 10%? debuff, disease, rr5, ae disease.

    What group comp would you suggest to fit an ice wizard into? A cold train on alb severely lacks utility compared to any assist train on Mid that a curse Warlock would be a part of.

    both get a (with last patch notes) 209 delve spec nuke. but ice wizards get a 10 % ice debuff on top.

    you mention ichor. but that's an ra, not something from a specline.

    a cold train on alb ... is uncomon but i have seen an ice wizard / ice theurg / debuff train, which does ok damage, has pet spam and has ranged ae damage + ice debuff + ae disease + pbaoe... agree, it's not the optimal debuff train.

    i would say the best single target debuff train + pbaoe certainly belongs to hib with a (1 or 2) mana chanter + (2 or 1) mana eldritches for single target dps + pbaoe. i don't think there is an arguement. for overall single target + pbaoe dps

    for pbaoe + ranged AE + single target dps, ice wizard + debuffer wins, ice wizards can even go without debuffer and still wini in pbaoe + ranged AE and still do very good single target DD

    in no case a mid train + pbaoe will equal an alb or hib train + pbaoe imho. (yeah, cabalist pbaoe is a stange one that doesn't really fit in the same train as a ice wiz train, but having ranged AE dot, ranged AE DD and pbaoe... gives those casters an extra ability to stack damage on top of their pbaoe, a dot ticking on top of a pbaoe, it's just extra damage)


    Alb Icer/PBAOE Train: Sorc / Cleric / Friar / Minst / Ice Wiz / Ice Wiz / Ice Thuerg / Pally

    Mid Energy/PBAOE Train: Pach / Sham / Augh / Skald / SM / SM / Curse Warlock / Valk

    The alb group might win the rr5 debate, but that mid caster train has 2x ichors, 3x pbae, as many pet classes as the Alb Group. 3x energy DD's w/ 50% debuff vastly out DPS's a wizard train w/o a 50% debuffer. I've never heard such a flawed argument in that regard. I'd even give the mid group an edge here, because the Thuerg should really only be on pet spams, not nuking with wizards, giving the Alb group a slight edge on pets but loss in DPS (especially if they have to swap between pet spams and DD's). The alb group might have more disease classes, but they're on your two primary DPS classes while the sham is free to disease and 3x assist train with 11 second single target stun on your soft avalonian wizards.

    Taking that mid setup over an alb bomb setup.

    where do you see the 3 energy dd's ?

    and listing ichor is really ... i don't know, if we have to go into all possible ra's that any class can have and list them ....

    SM / SM / Curse lock all have energy DD. 2x SM baseline, spec spirit DD on the warlock. I bring up Ichor because the Wizard doesn't have any RA that benefits open field combat, and having 2x ichor can really prevent a kite groups ability to, well, kite. Wizard has rr5 over the lock, but not as useful openfield, whereas Ichor is clutch openfield and siege.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Who wants to tell him
  • Sorry, Spirit, same difference for arguments sake.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Curse lock and ice wiz are not even comparable. Curse lock outperform wiz in any 8man setup.

    It has way more utility. Just that mini moc put him above as you can spam rupt at your will
  • StreetCred wrote: »
    Curse lock and ice wiz are not even comparable. Curse lock outperform wiz in any 8man setup.

    It has way more utility. Just that mini moc put him above as you can spam rupt at your will

    i'm still trying to figure out how a curse lock will outperform a wiz in an 8 man setup.

    i'm not sure how a curse lock has more utility. yeah sure, a curse lock has a NS. but an ice wizard has AE root, AE disease, AE dd with ice resist debuff ... ice wizards are the KINGS of AE.

    that 'mini moc' isn't a moc. it affects SOME, not all spells. and you're out of power after 5 spells and do very poor damage after all the nerfs that there have been to it.
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • ICe Wiz can NS also (offspec but still 35%)
  • @Muylae we all know midgard spirit train vastly outperforms, in all aspects, the alb cold train.

    You can't only talk about the one class, you need to take into account the group setup needed to fit said class. If you wanna setup 8 v 8 midgard spirit train vs alb cold train we can do that to demonstrate how lacking the alb cold train is. You even talked about having a cabby on your cold train :s
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • edited August 21 PM
    “Alb Icer/PBAOE Train: Sorc / Cleric / Friar / Minst / Ice Wiz / Ice Wiz / Ice Thuerg / Pally”

    Arms instead of Pally imo.

    @Dale_Perf

    Post edited by DaRedANT on
    Da ant familyDa fly familyDa spider family
    https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/daredant
  • edited August 22 PM
    If the goal by adding the Heat magic debuff to Earth Wizards is to diversify viable setups, then I suggest Broadsword do the following.

    Proposal 1: slight tweak
    1.) Earth line adjustment for Wizards
    - Add both Cold and Heat magic debuffs.
    - Increase the bolt delve to 331.
    - Increase the AoE DoT delve to 121.
    x may consider lowering the delve for Necromancers to 83 OR increasing the delve for Matter Cabalists to 121.
    - Transfer the AoE root from the Cold line to the Earth line and change the magic type from Cold to Earth.
    - Transfer the damage shield to baseline Earth Magic.
    - Retain remaining abilities.

    Proposal 2: larger overhaul
    1.) Earth line adjustment for Wizards
    - Add Matter, Cold, and Heat magic debuffs.
    x remove respective debuffs from Body Sorcs.
    - Remove the single target DD/Snare.
    - Lower the bolt delve below 300 or remove the bolt altogether.
    - Increase the AoE DoT delve to 121 and adjust as described above.
    - Transfer the AoE root from Cold to Earth line as described above.
    - Transfer the damage shield to baseline Earth Magic.
    - Change the Nearsight+Debuff 2000 range spell to a Nearsight only 2300 range spell.
    - Retain the AoE DD/Snare and GTAOE spells.
    x may consider increasing the GTAOE delve across the board.

    2.) Matter line adjustment for Sorcerers
    - Replace the DD/Snare with a higher delve spec DD (209 delve cap).
    x may consider adding a 10% resist debuff to all spec DDs across the board and adjusting delves accordingly.
    - Add a spec AoE DD (158 delve cap).
    - Retain remaining abilities.

    3.) Earth line adjustments for Theurgists
    - Transfer the current spec Earth DD to baseline.
    - Remove the spec AoE DD.
    - Add a spec single target and AoE DD/Snare (179 and 140 delve cap, respectively).
    - Retain remaining abilities.

    4.) Matter line adjustment for Cabalists
    - Remove the spec AoE DD.
    - Retain remaining abilities.

    Proposal 1 could be implemented with the upcoming patch without having to make any major adjustments. It would open up the possibility to run a Cold debuff train that also has bomb potential. Proposal 2 aims to make a Matter debuff train viable but requires a lot of changes without overpowering a particular class. While unlikely to manifest into anything meaningful, it provides food for thought on how to make Matter/Earth spec lines viable in RvR. I also included some general changes that should be looked into.

    All high delve spec DDs should have a corresponding 10% debuff. This ideally would accompany removal of the upcoming Body debuff for Bainshees, all current instant magic debuffs, the current Matter debuff for Warlocks & Maulers, and require Body Sorcs to transfer their magic debuffs to Earth Wizards accordingly. Magic damage types would have to be normalized per line as opposed to being intermixed for this to work. This change is aimed to help the casual player who may be ineffective at setting up a debuff train (aka raising the floor slightly).

    GTAOEs are largely absent in game as they serve no use in open field and are only "useful" in court yards as they do not work on unbroken structures. I propose either to increase the delves at least to 179 so a GT assist has the potential to do damage OR reduce the RUT to 4 seconds so a GT assist can maintain interrupts on players hiding from LOS (aka healers). This would specifically be aimed to benefit defending players.

    I suggest all AoE DoT delves be increased to 121 for the few classes that have their delves at 83. However, considering there is disparity in the number of AoE DoT classes between realms I can understand why it may not work. Either way, I think the high delve DoT should not be secluded to the Necromancer on Albion as that class is already strong without it.

    Just my two cents.
    Post edited by puter on
  • Bring back Ruined Keeps while you're at it.
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