You run around on bard in a fg and kill solos/small mans using bard only abilities. You just can't chase classes down like that on Mid/Alb.
As far as learning to assist, that's the point, on hib (especially in keep warfare) you don't need to. Any ani/eld/ment/chanter R8+ should be able to take most non-tank targets out without assisting.
Ani: Root (if they see you and try to get out of los, otherwise ignore that), cast 3-7 bombers (closer to 3 if same level/open field, closer to 6-7 if bombers have to travel), instacast con debuff, switch to dd/dbody debuff. You can unload 3k damage into something in about 3-4 seconds, even if it moves out of LOS after 1-2. I stopped playing my ani after a couple sessions at r7 because this was just so lame, so yeah, bombers work (really well) in keep siege. When people say you "have to use baseline" what they mean is the best way to profit when pushing an inner keep is to moc5 lifetap. AOE bombers, if there is actually a chokepoint, are amazing for rp gain, but all to often its a mad dash to find the few defenders to collect rp.
Eld/ment/chanter: some version of stun+nuke. Choose targets. if they purge just come back in 60 sec. I have killed 35 of a 60 man mid BG defending Scath on ment, without assist, and burning through 3 power charges, and I'm not leet by any means. Stun is so powerful precisely because if you accidentally are visible or even glitch visible for a second, you can be stunned, and then killed.
People claim Stun nuke nuke complaints are so 2005. Back then hib casters weren't nearly as powerful, and ments didn't have 11 second stun. An r3-5 pre TOA hib caster is an entirely different animal to any of the dozens of r11-12 hib casters that just eat things up. As a caster, absent good heals in your group, you will die without purge up if even one high rr hib caster lands stun nuke, prior to stun dropping.
Others claim stun nuke nuke isn't a big deal. If its not a big deal let every realm have an option (Alb does already and they put up a much better fight than Mid). Give it to mids as a spec stun (not baseline). Doesn't even really matter the dps class you put it on (well okay not lock or dark/rc rm. If every realm had a stun caster of some sort you'd see a lot less total hib domination in keep siege warfare.
in all those scenarios you have an MA that is stunning, So baseline stun doesnt really matter. If they are not assisting/debuffing then more than likely you not killing. ON alb, you can have the Cleric/ minstrel assist and stun. On mid, you have 2 healers. one can stun.
I have play alb and mid. Each have their strengths and weaknesses. I healer > bard if played right.
Is that why your bard has 6x as many rps as your healer? As far as your scenarios you are talking about open field/roam for the most part. The stun disparity and ani front load is most apparent in siege warfare as i indicated.
Are you comparing Bard, and Healer? Healer > Bard every day.... Better heals (including two instant heals, one on a 5 minute timer), casted amnesia with no RUT, an extra get out of jail free card (rr5), and has the same access to speed 6 and crescendo abilities.
Their realm specific abilities? I will take AOE stun, baseline single target stun, instant single target stun, instant aoe stun, over the Bards instant amnesia which just makes small mans cry on the forums. Blades spec is nice, but it's little more than a self peeling line for the class that already has a snare proc on their rr5.
Realm balance is fine, including stun-nuke-nuke. Get two more BG leads to run against hero every single day and balance might return in, what, a year or two?
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Hib is dominant because Herorius always runs a BG at the same time everyday for years and alb and mid do not..period. The other bg leaders come and go while Herorius keeps going.
Agreed, but they also have FOUR amazing healing classes. The groups typically have multiple healers sometimes as many as four even in the PUGs. Just getting one decent healer on Mid can be a struggle at times...
GL
They do? Wow. Didnt know that. I have always been bad with knowing mid and alb class abilities but this is taking it to whole new level
Are you comparing Bard, and Healer? Healer > Bard every day.... Better heals (including two instant heals, one on a 5 minute timer), casted amnesia with no RUT, an extra get out of jail free card (rr5), and has the same access to speed 6 and crescendo abilities.
Their realm specific abilities? I will take AOE stun, baseline single target stun, instant single target stun, instant aoe stun, over the Bards instant amnesia which just makes small mans cry on the forums. Blades spec is nice, but it's little more than a self peeling line for the class that already has a snare proc on their rr5.
Realm balance is fine, including stun-nuke-nuke. Get two more BG leads to run against hero every single day and balance might return in, what, a year or two?
Dude, what are you smoking ?
Realm-Balance and even Class-Balance is completely broken.
What do you think why there are no players ?????
Sometimes one has to doubt the humans.... unbelievable...
Is that why your bard has 6x as many rps as your healer? As far as your scenarios you are talking about open field/roam for the most part. The stun disparity and ani front load is most apparent in siege warfare as i indicated.
its because I have played hib for 12years before even trying a different realm.
sorc/ RM ae root is 1875 range you dont have a problem with that?
Just maybe people should treat siege warfare like open field. Why in the world would the BG leader ever be an MA? ( I have seen it) and stop AEing everything. respect CC and assist your group MA. Example tonight IRC targeted Justastupidcaster at Surs and farmicist, Xuu and someone all assisted on him hit him for 800+ each. Insta death. Move on, next target.
Are you comparing Bard, and Healer? Healer > Bard every day.... Better heals (including two instant heals, one on a 5 minute timer), casted amnesia with no RUT, an extra get out of jail free card (rr5), and has the same access to speed 6 and crescendo abilities.
Their realm specific abilities? I will take AOE stun, baseline single target stun, instant single target stun, instant aoe stun, over the Bards instant amnesia which just makes small mans cry on the forums. Blades spec is nice, but it's little more than a self peeling line for the class that already has a snare proc on their rr5.
Realm balance is fine, including stun-nuke-nuke. Get two more BG leads to run against hero every single day and balance might return in, what, a year or two?
Dude, what are you smoking ?
Realm-Balance and even Class-Balance is completely broken.
What do you think why there are no players ?????
Sometimes one has to doubt the humans.... unbelievable...
Mahv
The game isn't balanced for you, clearly. DAoC isn't balanced around Molvik solo or solo stealther. It's balanced around sandbox RvR, which means a combination of all playstyles. While Hib did have a small advantage after the EC/PBAOE patch (nerfed champ aoe debuffs helped), but there has always been a winding, twisting road of time periods where one realm has the upper hand. I'd say overall it's pretty balanced, what's killed the game is pointless PvE campaigns when they couldve just updated old content loot tables (instead of eliminating an expansion a lot of us paid for, for a short time period) breathing new life into nostalgic zones. Little-to-no bug fixes, updated official sources (website spell libraries still inaccurate), and knee-jerk patches (oj bd pets... pbae... just to name a couple) have helped it go downhill slowly. Add to that a failed EC launch and upkeep has further attributed to the already glaring contrast to their only competition.
It doesn't feel like anybody cares here, hence the low pop. I think the community would understand if the patch was delayed to COVID-19, but when we all see other games have managed to prepare for increased traffic and implemented some type of strategy to capitalize on the potential $$ gains that a nearly universal stay-at-home order for two months would bring. They missed out on revenue there. If they don't care about the $$$, what makes you think they care about us?
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Hib caster stun in keep warfare > anything you can name. Now given Keep battles are 90% of what this game is Hib has that luxury. Top it off with Hib ALWAYS playing defense and it's worth triple. To deny this just shows how much of a Hib fan boy you are.
@BumblesZERG I'm confused when you say that Hibs are always playing defense. Do you mean that in US Primetime, there are few Hibs so they are defending their keeps? Which I believe is the same issue but in reverse for EU Primetime - Hibs are always on the offence ?
Y'all need better healers if you're dieing to a single stun nuke caster without a debuff. If you're trying to defend solo, then maybe it's time to rethink your approach and start forming compatible groups.
I don't think anyone is dieing to a single caster without debuff...
The stun nuke nuke is very strong in keeps (def and off), your debuffer is the one stunning. You can definitely do the same on alb and mid, but you do require a cleric/pac to stay close to MA.
Hib casters have 70% of the utility of alb casters so it balances off imo.
You have eld, ment and bainshee without any good baseline cc (stun isn't cc, it's just used to secure kills).
And people can stop replying to @Mahvash, he is obviously a troll.
@BumblesZERG I'm confused when you say that Hibs are always playing defense. Do you mean that in US Primetime, there are few Hibs so they are defending their keeps? Which I believe is the same issue but in reverse for EU Primetime - Hibs are always on the offence ?
It might have been some time since you have played US primetime on Hib. They either have the numbers or are even 75% of the time. It's not 2014 anymore where it's only a Mid/Alb BG.
Hib caster stun in keep warfare > anything you can name. Now given Keep battles are 90% of what this game is Hib has that luxury. Top it off with Hib ALWAYS playing defense and it's worth triple. To deny this just shows how much of a Hib fan boy you are.
Catapult assist >
Keeps are supposed to be hard to take when you don't have double the numbers to take the keep. Add the many features put in place to slow down the hero zerg, and it really hurts the US prime effort where BG's are typically smaller during US prime. Stun-nuke-nuke is an advantage for Hibs for sure, but it's not the deciding factor in keep fights.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Hib caster stun in keep warfare > anything you can name. Now given Keep battles are 90% of what this game is Hib has that luxury. Top it off with Hib ALWAYS playing defense and it's worth triple. To deny this just shows how much of a Hib fan boy you are.
Catapult assist >
Keeps are supposed to be hard to take when you don't have double the numbers to take the keep. Add the many features put in place to slow down the hero zerg, and it really hurts the US prime effort where BG's are typically smaller during US prime. Stun-nuke-nuke is an advantage for Hibs for sure, but it's not the deciding factor in keep fights. [/quote]
Yeah but this is a "known" abuse of the ram bug and los.
Sigh this crap keeps getting recycled but the message doesn’t sink in ffs balance Is very complicated as had been reiterated so many times you can make very good groups on alb but they are specialised and you have to have the right toons it’s not about hib or mid being better it’s the ease of forming a competitive group I repeat you can form good groups on alb but and here is the but you need the classes to form them with the population so low forming a group on the other realms is so much easier for a
Pug it’s just easier to interchange and slot toons in groups.
atm (friday 2100 CET) there are more hibs in hero bg than there are mids in NF.
atm (friday 2100 CET) there are more hibs in nf than there are mids online.
in the last 5 days, annamariede and me called it quits 3 times for our bg's after about an hour because our bg's are so small than any half decent alb or hib group wipes our bg's.
Post edited by Muylae on
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
It's a sad state of affairs when you watch Herious's zerg attack Bold, knock down doors, put up seige towers, only to leave it that way because there is no resistance.
Yeah I'm about at that point as well. Have little to no desire to play once I complete my solo quests. It's just such a one sided game now. 24/7 Hibs and the action sucks.
Are you comparing Bard, and Healer? Healer > Bard every day.... Better heals (including two instant heals, one on a 5 minute timer), casted amnesia with no RUT, an extra get out of jail free card (rr5), and has the same access to speed 6 and crescendo abilities.
Their realm specific abilities? I will take AOE stun, baseline single target stun, instant single target stun, instant aoe stun, over the Bards instant amnesia which just makes small mans cry on the forums. Blades spec is nice, but it's little more than a self peeling line for the class that already has a snare proc on their rr5.
Realm balance is fine, including stun-nuke-nuke. Get two more BG leads to run against hero every single day and balance might return in, what, a year or two?
@Dale_Perf
1) you do realize Healers don't get crescendo right?
2) you do realize that a well played bard can keep speed 6 up while interrupting the enemies, right? (so when charge tanks come you just laugh for 15 seconds) You just cycle your chants. Speed 6 comparisons go out the window when it only matters when you're fighting.
3) You've also mentioned all the things a healer can have but nowhere near all the things most bards do have. A reader of your post is left thinking that all bards get is instant amnesia, speed 6, inferior heals, and crescendo.
4) Generally what you wrote above is the well known healer falacy. Healers get 1.0 spec points. You spec for 46 in a line (what it would require to have "better heals" than a bard (though bards 47 group heal is significantly better than healers 46), you've got enough for max of 28 in pac/aug). 28 pac makes a horrible healer. But it can root you might say. Bards get baseline of the following; root, mez, insta amnesia and demez. Your bard could be (and in heros zerg many are for higher sustained heals than any mid class can deliver), 47 regrowth, 46 aug for basically full buffs, 40% mez redux, 16% resists, etc. For those of you who actually spec for open field you sneer at the 47 regrowth bard, because there are so many awesome combinations for tri spec bards (with a little peel sword), The fact of the matter is that no healer can spec for all the wonderful things you've mentioned, but any bard can spec for more group utility than a healer could ever hope for.
atm (friday 2100 CET) there are more hibs in hero bg than there are mids in NF.
atm (friday 2100 CET) there are more hibs in nf than there are mids online.
in the last 5 days, annamariede and me called it quits 3 times for our bg's after about an hour because our bg's are so small than any half decent alb or hib group wipes our bg's.
You guys have been dying tons of times to hibs. and if its anywhere close in numbers they just hole up with their 6 relics and wipe you 3-4 more times in keeps/towers. It's sad to watch, and every time someone on here says "well just form a zerg on mid/alb" I know they play hib or don't play at all.
Are you comparing Bard, and Healer? Healer > Bard every day.... Better heals (including two instant heals, one on a 5 minute timer), casted amnesia with no RUT, an extra get out of jail free card (rr5), and has the same access to speed 6 and crescendo abilities.
Their realm specific abilities? I will take AOE stun, baseline single target stun, instant single target stun, instant aoe stun, over the Bards instant amnesia which just makes small mans cry on the forums. Blades spec is nice, but it's little more than a self peeling line for the class that already has a snare proc on their rr5.
Realm balance is fine, including stun-nuke-nuke. Get two more BG leads to run against hero every single day and balance might return in, what, a year or two?
@Dale_Perf
1) you do realize Healers don't get crescendo right?
2) you do realize that a well played bard can keep speed 6 up while interrupting the enemies, right? (so when charge tanks come you just laugh for 15 seconds) You just cycle your chants. Speed 6 comparisons go out the window when it only matters when you're fighting.
3) You've also mentioned all the things a healer can have but nowhere near all the things most bards do have. A reader of your post is left thinking that all bards get is instant amnesia, speed 6, inferior heals, and crescendo.
4) Generally what you wrote above is the well known healer falacy. Healers get 1.0 spec points. You spec for 46 in a line (what it would require to have "better heals" than a bard (though bards 47 group heal is significantly better than healers 46), you've got enough for max of 28 in pac/aug). 28 pac makes a horrible healer. But it can root you might say. Bards get baseline of the following; root, mez, insta amnesia and demez. Your bard could be (and in heros zerg many are for higher sustained heals than any mid class can deliver), 47 regrowth, 46 aug for basically full buffs, 40% mez redux, 16% resists, etc. For those of you who actually spec for open field you sneer at the 47 regrowth bard, because there are so many awesome combinations for tri spec bards (with a little peel sword), The fact of the matter is that no healer can spec for all the wonderful things you've mentioned, but any bard can spec for more group utility than a healer could ever hope for.
1.) You're correct. But everyone can get it via several items so it's a moot point either way.
2.) I assume you're referring to the Bard Loyalty Cloak. You can still CC them out so, again, a moot point when comparing Healer speed vs. Bard speed. Also, you don't have to cycle chants / songs anymore....
3.) He mentioned SOME abilities you can get as a Pac / Mend Healer. Don't forget there's still combinations for Aug / Mend and tri-spec as well that provide a DIFFERENT set of abilities.
4.) Yes, Healers have lower spec points compared to Bard. However, Healers have a LOT of utility packed into their class. Hence why it takes a really good player for the class to shine. Trying to compare healing strength between Bard and Healer is a bit absurd. Sure, you can spec high Regrowth on a Bard for the spec group heal but it's completely halved by disease. You know what isn't affected by disease? Spreadheal. By far the best out of LOS heal in the game. An ability that Healers get and Bards don't. Furthermore, making an argument on healing effectiveness by comparing group heals really highlights a skill deficit here. They're convenient in keep / tower situations but ultimately less effective than single target heals. I remember seeing all the QQ posts when Broadsword increased the power cost of group heals not too long ago. It must be a tough game if you can't spam one button. Also, buffs really don't matter anymore in Broadsword era DAoC since the introduction of Supremacy potions and more "recently" the Pendragon Bracer (can't be sheared lol). If you're playing on Hib, the 16% resists from the Bard is moot when you have 24% with a Warden and Druid in the group. The 16% resist buffs really only benefit small mans and soloers which is accessible across all three realms. Yes, the Bard has a Mez Damp that Healers don't have which was originally only on Sorcs (an odd change that never should have happened).
Don't get me wrong. Bard is a very strong class in the right hands which is also true for a Healer (specifically Pac / Mend). They shine in different situations, imo. Bard has the advantage in open field and small scale fights (i.e. small mans or 8v8). Healer has the advantage in keeps / towers and large scale fights (i.e. zerg vs. zerg). I personally think the issue is that most players who play zerg vs. zerg aren't effective with their respective class. Hence why it's rare to see a good Healer or even Sorc in a BG when they both should be dominating the field. The easier class to play is the best class for this community. However, at the end of the day, getting pushed in by a zerg of det9 tanks makes all three of those CC classes useless so...play more tanks.
Are you comparing Bard, and Healer? Healer > Bard every day.... Better heals (including two instant heals, one on a 5 minute timer), casted amnesia with no RUT, an extra get out of jail free card (rr5), and has the same access to speed 6 and crescendo abilities.
Their realm specific abilities? I will take AOE stun, baseline single target stun, instant single target stun, instant aoe stun, over the Bards instant amnesia which just makes small mans cry on the forums. Blades spec is nice, but it's little more than a self peeling line for the class that already has a snare proc on their rr5.
Realm balance is fine, including stun-nuke-nuke. Get two more BG leads to run against hero every single day and balance might return in, what, a year or two?
@Dale_Perf
1) you do realize Healers don't get crescendo right?
2) you do realize that a well played bard can keep speed 6 up while interrupting the enemies, right? (so when charge tanks come you just laugh for 15 seconds) You just cycle your chants. Speed 6 comparisons go out the window when it only matters when you're fighting.
3) You've also mentioned all the things a healer can have but nowhere near all the things most bards do have. A reader of your post is left thinking that all bards get is instant amnesia, speed 6, inferior heals, and crescendo.
4) Generally what you wrote above is the well known healer falacy. Healers get 1.0 spec points. You spec for 46 in a line (what it would require to have "better heals" than a bard (though bards 47 group heal is significantly better than healers 46), you've got enough for max of 28 in pac/aug). 28 pac makes a horrible healer. But it can root you might say. Bards get baseline of the following; root, mez, insta amnesia and demez. Your bard could be (and in heros zerg many are for higher sustained heals than any mid class can deliver), 47 regrowth, 46 aug for basically full buffs, 40% mez redux, 16% resists, etc. For those of you who actually spec for open field you sneer at the 47 regrowth bard, because there are so many awesome combinations for tri spec bards (with a little peel sword), The fact of the matter is that no healer can spec for all the wonderful things you've mentioned, but any bard can spec for more group utility than a healer could ever hope for.
1. A healer can have two items both with a crescendo charge.
2. What server are you playing, cycling your bard chants?
3. Yes, bards do get more tools than i suggested in one post. I think for anybody to debate the classes of Bard and Healer, they must have a fair amount of knowledge already about both the classes (I played both to rr11).
4. Who the %^$# was spending 47+ points in a MENDING SKILL LINE when we are debating a HEALER and a BARD??? With lower spec in mending, healer gets access to spread heal and instant heals. Already a better healer than bard. I wonder why they call it a "Healer..." It's even more a crazy idea for a pac healer to be going 47 mend, so whats the point of talking about it? Cool baseline bard abilities. I speak from experience, it looks like you're debating from the character planner.
TBH it feels like a troll post that bard has "more utility" than healer. Bard is a great class, the better mezzer of the two (when the bard knows how to amnesia properly), but it doesn't have more utility than Healer.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Many very good and valid points but it is not true to entirely blame the lack of counter to Herorius (Looking at you Alb particuarly) on bad leadership. The utility in Mid and Hib classes allow the forming of grps and competing in fights so much easier than on Alb. My experience playing Mid recently compared to Alb is the Mid classes do have a ton more utility to them compared to Alb classes, no doubt about it. Mid can compete with the Hero zerg but Alb would need a to be given a lot more utility rather than buffing it's classes in order to allow people to form grps, froom where a counyer zerg to the Mid and Hib ones. If Albs are put on a fair playing field, then if they lose to Hero etc. they can winge to their hearts delight.
all this talk about your experience trumps my character planner and you want to convince me you don't know about the benefit of cycling your speed song as a bard during a fight? I don't believe that, even poorly played bards cycle speed song after they insta anmesia you so they don't lose speed. Though maybe you have less experience than I thought. Of course you don't have to cycle songs, that's not what this is about, its about what a bard can be with good play.
Glad you brought up bard cloak though. It's insane. Also having a 1000 radius weapon EOY charge no other class gets (should be in ever template) allows the bard to reset the entire fight/keep a zerg melee train active.
As a primary cc class bard>healer. You want to say but healers get spreads/instants but again not with only 1.0 spec points (small insta in pac now). To match bards baseline root (actually bard baseline is still longer but to get close) you have to have 46 pac. Yeah, you can go lower but rooting tanks for 4-5 seconds isn't a good idea. So if we are arguing similar cc ability the heal comparison is out the window. If you want to argue a mend aug healer has better heals than your average 8man bard, that's accurate, but then everyone who plays this game would laugh if you try to say an aug/mend healer has better cc than a bard. On the healing side we'd all rather have a warden than aug/mend healer.
Also just a side note, clerics and druids have gotten their mending lines buffed over the last year or two and especially their other lines but healers have not.
all this talk about your experience trumps my character planner and you want to convince me you don't know about the benefit of cycling your speed song as a bard during a fight? I don't believe that, even poorly played bards cycle speed song after they insta anmesia you so they don't lose speed. Though maybe you have less experience than I thought. Of course you don't have to cycle songs, that's not what this is about, its about what a bard can be with good play.
Glad you brought up bard cloak though. It's insane. Also having a 1000 radius weapon EOY charge no other class gets (should be in ever template) allows the bard to reset the entire fight/keep a zerg melee train active.
As a primary cc class bard>healer. You want to say but healers get spreads/instants but again not with only 1.0 spec points (small insta in pac now). To match bards baseline root (actually bard baseline is still longer but to get close) you have to have 46 pac. Yeah, you can go lower but rooting tanks for 4-5 seconds isn't a good idea. So if we are arguing similar cc ability the heal comparison is out the window. If you want to argue a mend aug healer has better heals than your average 8man bard, that's accurate, but then everyone who plays this game would laugh if you try to say an aug/mend healer has better cc than a bard. On the healing side we'd all rather have a warden than aug/mend healer.
Also just a side note, clerics and druids have gotten their mending lines buffed over the last year or two and especially their other lines but healers have not.
You can just time instant amnesia with the song pulse to not break speed instead of recasting the song. Never know, might have to heal / cure while you interrupt but that may be too high level play. I'm still behind my statement that a Pac / Mend Healer has better healing capabilities than a Bard. Unless they're tri-spec, Aug / Mend and Pac / Mend usually have the same if not similar Mend. I'm curious though to see what exactly was buffed for Rejuv Clerics and Regrowth Druids that Mend Healers don't already have.
atm (friday 2100 CET) there are more hibs in hero bg than there are mids in NF.
atm (friday 2100 CET) there are more hibs in nf than there are mids online.
in the last 5 days, annamariede and me called it quits 3 times for our bg's after about an hour because our bg's are so small than any half decent alb or hib group wipes our bg's.
You guys have been dying tons of times to hibs. and if its anywhere close in numbers they just hole up with their 6 relics and wipe you 3-4 more times in keeps/towers. It's sad to watch, and every time someone on here says "well just form a zerg on mid/alb" I know they play hib or don't play at all.
the whole 'form a zerg' just doesn't do it, between me and annamariede we have had a mid bg up every day from 2000 CET onwards for 7 months now. things is we almost never get the numbers where we can fight hero in openfield with a small chance of success and even when defending a keep with an intact port it's almost always a wipe for us unless the 'leet' groups come to help and defend. i do think i"m more aggressive than Anna and i'm willing to go into fights with far worse odds than Anna would risk.
Post edited by Muylae on
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
People blame Herorius, but right now the only ones killing the game are the ones blindly following him.
They could go to other realms and balance out action for more fun for everyone, but they'd rather stick to their brainless lemming behavior.
The thing is that the players that are just logging in, stick hero and shut down their brain hugging a keep wall spamming 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 are the bigger proportion of the player base.
Unless BS starts forcing people to go play other realms, this game will die one group at a time.
only thing that may fix this is a good rp bonus for realm loyalty
maybe some peeps would not realm hop as much......
on the subject or rp bonus ... i think the rp bonus for population should exclude everyone that hasn't earned rp in the last 15 or 30 mins, so all the bb's and afk people standing in the relic town are not counted towards the realm population bonus.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
only thing that may fix this is a good rp bonus for realm loyalty
maybe some peeps would not realm hop as much......
on the subject or rp bonus ... i think the rp bonus for population should exclude everyone that hasn't earned rp in the last 15 or 30 mins, so all the bb's and afk people standing in the relic town are not counted towards the realm population bonus.
all this talk about your experience trumps my character planner and you want to convince me you don't know about the benefit of cycling your speed song as a bard during a fight? I don't believe that, even poorly played bards cycle speed song after they insta anmesia you so they don't lose speed. Though maybe you have less experience than I thought. Of course you don't have to cycle songs, that's not what this is about, its about what a bard can be with good play.
Glad you brought up bard cloak though. It's insane. Also having a 1000 radius weapon EOY charge no other class gets (should be in ever template) allows the bard to reset the entire fight/keep a zerg melee train active.
As a primary cc class bard>healer. You want to say but healers get spreads/instants but again not with only 1.0 spec points (small insta in pac now). To match bards baseline root (actually bard baseline is still longer but to get close) you have to have 46 pac. Yeah, you can go lower but rooting tanks for 4-5 seconds isn't a good idea. So if we are arguing similar cc ability the heal comparison is out the window. If you want to argue a mend aug healer has better heals than your average 8man bard, that's accurate, but then everyone who plays this game would laugh if you try to say an aug/mend healer has better cc than a bard. On the healing side we'd all rather have a warden than aug/mend healer.
Also just a side note, clerics and druids have gotten their mending lines buffed over the last year or two and especially their other lines but healers have not.
Total troll post lol.
What server are you playing where you're still cycling chants? Stop playing your damn flute and rupt somebody dude.
Healer also can have two egg charges in their template, including the same 1000 radius EOY charge (ps the EOY itself has a better radius, not sure why youre bragging about the 1000 unit charge lol)
I already noted bard is a better mezzer. Pac/Mend still has better healing (keep ignoring the spreadheal factor), two instants (instants are percentage based, in case you didn't know), access to DI, and casted stuns. Nobody is speccing 46 pac for a purple root, to root tanks, or to root anybody. Even the base of your debating is way off point. Bard is a great class. Healer has more utility and stronger in a longer fight because of that utility. Both Pac/Mend and bards job is to generally be a rupt whore. While CC immunities are in place, a Healer can better be positioned by either placing themselves further in the back, mainly rupting with casted amnesia (pretty much free casting at this point from 2500+ units) and also be in a better place to demezz/heal, and they can also push better because they get access to the 2nd get out of jail free card (rr5). Bard gets slight advantage with having IP, but depending on the rank of the bard (at rr11 I don't recall having higher than IP2), IP is only beating out the single target instant heal by what, 15-20%? Blades spec is nice, but I can also pull out my blade of illusions and smack people for 30 dmg on my healer, too.
No comment on the side note, you probably can't even provide what those changers were.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
today i called it a day again with my bg after about an hour.. simply no point in running a bg if every single enemy group we encountered wiped the bg ..
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
In trying to read all the posts, I think what is being said is -
Hibs play Hibs because it is fun for them. As a result, their numbers are large especially during EU prime time
Mids aren't playing (so don't have the numbers) because playing Mid isn't fun. They can't field the numbers needed to feel like they have a chance against other zergs.
Albs are frustrated because in order to create a good group they need specific classes so playing Alb isn't that fun because you can't count on having the right classes available to play. They are willing to be a bit more tricky (oil pour and traps) to get RPs but zerg play isn't fun because of lack of numbers.
The goal is to get more people to play Alb or Mid and play less Hib or increase the overall population with the expectation that there would be more playing Alb or Mid.
Has anyone queried people to ask why they don't play Mid or Alb?
People blame Herorius, but right now the only ones killing the game are the ones blindly following him.
They could go to other realms and balance out action for more fun for everyone, but they'd rather stick to their brainless lemming behavior.
The thing is that the players that are just logging in, stick hero and shut down their brain hugging a keep wall spamming 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 are the bigger proportion of the player base.
Unless BS starts forcing people to go play other realms, this game will die one group at a time.
I gotta agree with you here, way to many hibs and it doesn't spread out enough. Big part of the reason I switched over to mid was it was getting silly to run with Hib, sure during the week its not that bad a difference but on the weekends it hibs all the way.
Comments
Playing whatever realm you play, what non-realm class would you love to see on your realm.
On Mid I'd be hop happy with bard warden ment eld chant ani friar necro pally or even smite cleric.
On Alb I'd drool at bard warden ment chant healer sham
On Hib I'd consider Necro, cab well played tic/pally or sham if roam
You run around on bard in a fg and kill solos/small mans using bard only abilities. You just can't chase classes down like that on Mid/Alb.
As far as learning to assist, that's the point, on hib (especially in keep warfare) you don't need to. Any ani/eld/ment/chanter R8+ should be able to take most non-tank targets out without assisting.
Ani: Root (if they see you and try to get out of los, otherwise ignore that), cast 3-7 bombers (closer to 3 if same level/open field, closer to 6-7 if bombers have to travel), instacast con debuff, switch to dd/dbody debuff. You can unload 3k damage into something in about 3-4 seconds, even if it moves out of LOS after 1-2. I stopped playing my ani after a couple sessions at r7 because this was just so lame, so yeah, bombers work (really well) in keep siege. When people say you "have to use baseline" what they mean is the best way to profit when pushing an inner keep is to moc5 lifetap. AOE bombers, if there is actually a chokepoint, are amazing for rp gain, but all to often its a mad dash to find the few defenders to collect rp.
Eld/ment/chanter: some version of stun+nuke. Choose targets. if they purge just come back in 60 sec. I have killed 35 of a 60 man mid BG defending Scath on ment, without assist, and burning through 3 power charges, and I'm not leet by any means. Stun is so powerful precisely because if you accidentally are visible or even glitch visible for a second, you can be stunned, and then killed.
People claim Stun nuke nuke complaints are so 2005. Back then hib casters weren't nearly as powerful, and ments didn't have 11 second stun. An r3-5 pre TOA hib caster is an entirely different animal to any of the dozens of r11-12 hib casters that just eat things up. As a caster, absent good heals in your group, you will die without purge up if even one high rr hib caster lands stun nuke, prior to stun dropping.
Others claim stun nuke nuke isn't a big deal. If its not a big deal let every realm have an option (Alb does already and they put up a much better fight than Mid). Give it to mids as a spec stun (not baseline). Doesn't even really matter the dps class you put it on (well okay not lock or dark/rc rm. If every realm had a stun caster of some sort you'd see a lot less total hib domination in keep siege warfare.
in all those scenarios you have an MA that is stunning, So baseline stun doesnt really matter. If they are not assisting/debuffing then more than likely you not killing. ON alb, you can have the Cleric/ minstrel assist and stun. On mid, you have 2 healers. one can stun.
I have play alb and mid. Each have their strengths and weaknesses. I healer > bard if played right.
Their realm specific abilities? I will take AOE stun, baseline single target stun, instant single target stun, instant aoe stun, over the Bards instant amnesia which just makes small mans cry on the forums. Blades spec is nice, but it's little more than a self peeling line for the class that already has a snare proc on their rr5.
Realm balance is fine, including stun-nuke-nuke. Get two more BG leads to run against hero every single day and balance might return in, what, a year or two?
They do? Wow. Didnt know that. I have always been bad with knowing mid and alb class abilities but this is taking it to whole new level
Dude, what are you smoking ?
Realm-Balance and even Class-Balance is completely broken.
What do you think why there are no players ?????
Sometimes one has to doubt the humans.... unbelievable...
Mahv
I missed those days. DD turns into a group heal. they need to put that back. lol[
its because I have played hib for 12years before even trying a different realm.
sorc/ RM ae root is 1875 range you dont have a problem with that?
Just maybe people should treat siege warfare like open field. Why in the world would the BG leader ever be an MA? ( I have seen it) and stop AEing everything. respect CC and assist your group MA. Example tonight IRC targeted Justastupidcaster at Surs and farmicist, Xuu and someone all assisted on him hit him for 800+ each. Insta death. Move on, next target.
The game isn't balanced for you, clearly. DAoC isn't balanced around Molvik solo or solo stealther. It's balanced around sandbox RvR, which means a combination of all playstyles. While Hib did have a small advantage after the EC/PBAOE patch (nerfed champ aoe debuffs helped), but there has always been a winding, twisting road of time periods where one realm has the upper hand. I'd say overall it's pretty balanced, what's killed the game is pointless PvE campaigns when they couldve just updated old content loot tables (instead of eliminating an expansion a lot of us paid for, for a short time period) breathing new life into nostalgic zones. Little-to-no bug fixes, updated official sources (website spell libraries still inaccurate), and knee-jerk patches (oj bd pets... pbae... just to name a couple) have helped it go downhill slowly. Add to that a failed EC launch and upkeep has further attributed to the already glaring contrast to their only competition.
It doesn't feel like anybody cares here, hence the low pop. I think the community would understand if the patch was delayed to COVID-19, but when we all see other games have managed to prepare for increased traffic and implemented some type of strategy to capitalize on the potential $$ gains that a nearly universal stay-at-home order for two months would bring. They missed out on revenue there. If they don't care about the $$$, what makes you think they care about us?
Everyone can in Broadsword DAoC.
The stun nuke nuke is very strong in keeps (def and off), your debuffer is the one stunning. You can definitely do the same on alb and mid, but you do require a cleric/pac to stay close to MA.
Hib casters have 70% of the utility of alb casters so it balances off imo.
You have eld, ment and bainshee without any good baseline cc (stun isn't cc, it's just used to secure kills).
And people can stop replying to @Mahvash, he is obviously a troll.
It might have been some time since you have played US primetime on Hib. They either have the numbers or are even 75% of the time. It's not 2014 anymore where it's only a Mid/Alb BG.
Catapult assist >
Keeps are supposed to be hard to take when you don't have double the numbers to take the keep. Add the many features put in place to slow down the hero zerg, and it really hurts the US prime effort where BG's are typically smaller during US prime. Stun-nuke-nuke is an advantage for Hibs for sure, but it's not the deciding factor in keep fights.
Catapult assist >
Keeps are supposed to be hard to take when you don't have double the numbers to take the keep. Add the many features put in place to slow down the hero zerg, and it really hurts the US prime effort where BG's are typically smaller during US prime. Stun-nuke-nuke is an advantage for Hibs for sure, but it's not the deciding factor in keep fights. [/quote]
Yeah but this is a "known" abuse of the ram bug and los.
Catapult assisting is abuse of a bug? No wonder why half of this server doesn't know how to use siege, theyre all convinced it's a bug.
You're the one that just said catapult assisting is a known bug that's being abused.
Pug it’s just easier to interchange and slot toons in groups.
atm (friday 2100 CET) there are more hibs in nf than there are mids online.
in the last 5 days, annamariede and me called it quits 3 times for our bg's after about an hour because our bg's are so small than any half decent alb or hib group wipes our bg's.
@Dale_Perf
1) you do realize Healers don't get crescendo right?
2) you do realize that a well played bard can keep speed 6 up while interrupting the enemies, right? (so when charge tanks come you just laugh for 15 seconds) You just cycle your chants. Speed 6 comparisons go out the window when it only matters when you're fighting.
3) You've also mentioned all the things a healer can have but nowhere near all the things most bards do have. A reader of your post is left thinking that all bards get is instant amnesia, speed 6, inferior heals, and crescendo.
4) Generally what you wrote above is the well known healer falacy. Healers get 1.0 spec points. You spec for 46 in a line (what it would require to have "better heals" than a bard (though bards 47 group heal is significantly better than healers 46), you've got enough for max of 28 in pac/aug). 28 pac makes a horrible healer. But it can root you might say. Bards get baseline of the following; root, mez, insta amnesia and demez. Your bard could be (and in heros zerg many are for higher sustained heals than any mid class can deliver), 47 regrowth, 46 aug for basically full buffs, 40% mez redux, 16% resists, etc. For those of you who actually spec for open field you sneer at the 47 regrowth bard, because there are so many awesome combinations for tri spec bards (with a little peel sword), The fact of the matter is that no healer can spec for all the wonderful things you've mentioned, but any bard can spec for more group utility than a healer could ever hope for.
You guys have been dying tons of times to hibs. and if its anywhere close in numbers they just hole up with their 6 relics and wipe you 3-4 more times in keeps/towers. It's sad to watch, and every time someone on here says "well just form a zerg on mid/alb" I know they play hib or don't play at all.
1.) You're correct. But everyone can get it via several items so it's a moot point either way.
2.) I assume you're referring to the Bard Loyalty Cloak. You can still CC them out so, again, a moot point when comparing Healer speed vs. Bard speed. Also, you don't have to cycle chants / songs anymore....
3.) He mentioned SOME abilities you can get as a Pac / Mend Healer. Don't forget there's still combinations for Aug / Mend and tri-spec as well that provide a DIFFERENT set of abilities.
4.) Yes, Healers have lower spec points compared to Bard. However, Healers have a LOT of utility packed into their class. Hence why it takes a really good player for the class to shine. Trying to compare healing strength between Bard and Healer is a bit absurd. Sure, you can spec high Regrowth on a Bard for the spec group heal but it's completely halved by disease. You know what isn't affected by disease? Spreadheal. By far the best out of LOS heal in the game. An ability that Healers get and Bards don't. Furthermore, making an argument on healing effectiveness by comparing group heals really highlights a skill deficit here. They're convenient in keep / tower situations but ultimately less effective than single target heals. I remember seeing all the QQ posts when Broadsword increased the power cost of group heals not too long ago. It must be a tough game if you can't spam one button. Also, buffs really don't matter anymore in Broadsword era DAoC since the introduction of Supremacy potions and more "recently" the Pendragon Bracer (can't be sheared lol). If you're playing on Hib, the 16% resists from the Bard is moot when you have 24% with a Warden and Druid in the group. The 16% resist buffs really only benefit small mans and soloers which is accessible across all three realms. Yes, the Bard has a Mez Damp that Healers don't have which was originally only on Sorcs (an odd change that never should have happened).
Don't get me wrong. Bard is a very strong class in the right hands which is also true for a Healer (specifically Pac / Mend). They shine in different situations, imo. Bard has the advantage in open field and small scale fights (i.e. small mans or 8v8). Healer has the advantage in keeps / towers and large scale fights (i.e. zerg vs. zerg). I personally think the issue is that most players who play zerg vs. zerg aren't effective with their respective class. Hence why it's rare to see a good Healer or even Sorc in a BG when they both should be dominating the field. The easier class to play is the best class for this community. However, at the end of the day, getting pushed in by a zerg of det9 tanks makes all three of those CC classes useless so...play more tanks.
1. A healer can have two items both with a crescendo charge.
2. What server are you playing, cycling your bard chants?
3. Yes, bards do get more tools than i suggested in one post. I think for anybody to debate the classes of Bard and Healer, they must have a fair amount of knowledge already about both the classes (I played both to rr11).
4. Who the %^$# was spending 47+ points in a MENDING SKILL LINE when we are debating a HEALER and a BARD??? With lower spec in mending, healer gets access to spread heal and instant heals. Already a better healer than bard. I wonder why they call it a "Healer..." It's even more a crazy idea for a pac healer to be going 47 mend, so whats the point of talking about it? Cool baseline bard abilities. I speak from experience, it looks like you're debating from the character planner.
TBH it feels like a troll post that bard has "more utility" than healer. Bard is a great class, the better mezzer of the two (when the bard knows how to amnesia properly), but it doesn't have more utility than Healer.
Glad you brought up bard cloak though. It's insane. Also having a 1000 radius weapon EOY charge no other class gets (should be in ever template) allows the bard to reset the entire fight/keep a zerg melee train active.
As a primary cc class bard>healer. You want to say but healers get spreads/instants but again not with only 1.0 spec points (small insta in pac now). To match bards baseline root (actually bard baseline is still longer but to get close) you have to have 46 pac. Yeah, you can go lower but rooting tanks for 4-5 seconds isn't a good idea. So if we are arguing similar cc ability the heal comparison is out the window. If you want to argue a mend aug healer has better heals than your average 8man bard, that's accurate, but then everyone who plays this game would laugh if you try to say an aug/mend healer has better cc than a bard. On the healing side we'd all rather have a warden than aug/mend healer.
Also just a side note, clerics and druids have gotten their mending lines buffed over the last year or two and especially their other lines but healers have not.
You can just time instant amnesia with the song pulse to not break speed instead of recasting the song. Never know, might have to heal / cure while you interrupt but that may be too high level play. I'm still behind my statement that a Pac / Mend Healer has better healing capabilities than a Bard. Unless they're tri-spec, Aug / Mend and Pac / Mend usually have the same if not similar Mend. I'm curious though to see what exactly was buffed for Rejuv Clerics and Regrowth Druids that Mend Healers don't already have.
the whole 'form a zerg' just doesn't do it, between me and annamariede we have had a mid bg up every day from 2000 CET onwards for 7 months now. things is we almost never get the numbers where we can fight hero in openfield with a small chance of success and even when defending a keep with an intact port it's almost always a wipe for us unless the 'leet' groups come to help and defend. i do think i"m more aggressive than Anna and i'm willing to go into fights with far worse odds than Anna would risk.
They could go to other realms and balance out action for more fun for everyone, but they'd rather stick to their brainless lemming behavior.
The thing is that the players that are just logging in, stick hero and shut down their brain hugging a keep wall spamming 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 are the bigger proportion of the player base.
Unless BS starts forcing people to go play other realms, this game will die one group at a time.
Congrats, you have contributed to killing the game. Glad you can see it now at least.
maybe some peeps would not realm hop as much......
on the subject or rp bonus ... i think the rp bonus for population should exclude everyone that hasn't earned rp in the last 15 or 30 mins, so all the bb's and afk people standing in the relic town are not counted towards the realm population bonus.
100 percent agree with that
Total troll post lol.
What server are you playing where you're still cycling chants? Stop playing your damn flute and rupt somebody dude.
Healer also can have two egg charges in their template, including the same 1000 radius EOY charge (ps the EOY itself has a better radius, not sure why youre bragging about the 1000 unit charge lol)
I already noted bard is a better mezzer. Pac/Mend still has better healing (keep ignoring the spreadheal factor), two instants (instants are percentage based, in case you didn't know), access to DI, and casted stuns. Nobody is speccing 46 pac for a purple root, to root tanks, or to root anybody. Even the base of your debating is way off point. Bard is a great class. Healer has more utility and stronger in a longer fight because of that utility. Both Pac/Mend and bards job is to generally be a rupt whore. While CC immunities are in place, a Healer can better be positioned by either placing themselves further in the back, mainly rupting with casted amnesia (pretty much free casting at this point from 2500+ units) and also be in a better place to demezz/heal, and they can also push better because they get access to the 2nd get out of jail free card (rr5). Bard gets slight advantage with having IP, but depending on the rank of the bard (at rr11 I don't recall having higher than IP2), IP is only beating out the single target instant heal by what, 15-20%? Blades spec is nice, but I can also pull out my blade of illusions and smack people for 30 dmg on my healer, too.
No comment on the side note, you probably can't even provide what those changers were.
Hibs play Hibs because it is fun for them. As a result, their numbers are large especially during EU prime time
Mids aren't playing (so don't have the numbers) because playing Mid isn't fun. They can't field the numbers needed to feel like they have a chance against other zergs.
Albs are frustrated because in order to create a good group they need specific classes so playing Alb isn't that fun because you can't count on having the right classes available to play. They are willing to be a bit more tricky (oil pour and traps) to get RPs but zerg play isn't fun because of lack of numbers.
The goal is to get more people to play Alb or Mid and play less Hib or increase the overall population with the expectation that there would be more playing Alb or Mid.
Has anyone queried people to ask why they don't play Mid or Alb?
I gotta agree with you here, way to many hibs and it doesn't spread out enough. Big part of the reason I switched over to mid was it was getting silly to run with Hib, sure during the week its not that bad a difference but on the weekends it hibs all the way.