Another population thread
Posted this in discord but wanted it somewhere more stable:
Is broadsword going to address the population issues? Any strategy at all here? Now is the actual time to take a step back, look at what didn’t work as intended with EC, and iterate. Game is almost dead. They have to act quick if they want any fighting chance to have it survive into 2020. This whole “post pone any changes and roll out underwhelming patches to gain population or returning players” isn’t working.
Daoc can still survive but not like this and not without acting fast. My guess? Maybe give muuuuuch more incentive for ec players. Look, all of us that sub aren’t going to unsub as long as there is action. You may not gain money from ec accounts but at least you won’t LOSE the few subs you have left. You are in great danger of this. The ec patch didn’t do anything to incentivize returning players. They heard the buzz, maybe logged in, were super underwhelmed and never logged back in.
There’s not much of us left, please just listen..
Is broadsword going to address the population issues? Any strategy at all here? Now is the actual time to take a step back, look at what didn’t work as intended with EC, and iterate. Game is almost dead. They have to act quick if they want any fighting chance to have it survive into 2020. This whole “post pone any changes and roll out underwhelming patches to gain population or returning players” isn’t working.
Daoc can still survive but not like this and not without acting fast. My guess? Maybe give muuuuuch more incentive for ec players. Look, all of us that sub aren’t going to unsub as long as there is action. You may not gain money from ec accounts but at least you won’t LOSE the few subs you have left. You are in great danger of this. The ec patch didn’t do anything to incentivize returning players. They heard the buzz, maybe logged in, were super underwhelmed and never logged back in.
There’s not much of us left, please just listen..
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Totally agree with that.
Here is what they wrote in their last grab bag:
So, basically they say, they will improve EC until March and then focus on an alternate server. This server should bring new people to Ywain finally, they say. But the first new player from this to expect will not be before 2021 i guess.
The Grab Bag quantity was purely down to time of year, thanksgiving and such, and it's not the only way we communicate with these forums, discord, fb, twitter, not to mention ingame constant daily communication with players.
Broadsword Online Games
I've been playing as f2p and off the top of my head these are the most disheartening restrictions I have seen:
- no /rp /xp off... Seriously, as a person coming back to the game I have toons in Molvik whose sole existence is to have that character in that battleground. I have absolutely ZERO interest in ever leveling them out. They are there for when I want a change from NF, but I am forced to pay money for a buff for a single character to turn my xp/rp off. And at the same time, if I did level out on accident, there is no way to go back. Very terrible QoL with this restriction. For this I suggest being able to turn XP off ONLY for f2p, and give the option to use to RP Remover NPC in BGs which currently you cannot as f2p
- Not being able to use sup pots or speed of the hunt pots in NF. This is by definition pay-to-win IMO... I know red buffs aren't everything, I used to run yellow buffs all the time BEFORE supremacy pots were even in game and solo'd just fine (never had bot account unless I used a friends). But Broadsword implemented them and now they are part of the game and you can't take that away. Also, not being able to use Speed of the Hunt for WHAT reason exactly? Again, terrible QoL issue.
- HOUSING!! OK, I am totally not against F2P players not being able to own a house BUT, there is no easy way for me to trade or swap items between my characters now, I must rely on other people. Also, I have SO many items for templates that I cannot access in my vaults of my house. I would love to have access to my vaults to be able to remove and store items. DAoC is a game with lots of "stuff" and 2 pages in your /vault fills up too quickly for f2p players. As far as collecting money from Consignment Merchants or being able to access my mansion deeds, I am OK with not being able to get income from those aspects as a F2P.. I don't need to be rich, I just want to be able to play...
-RPs/XP/BPs I can see this being a big problem for f2p players, more so the BPs. Nerfing the XP rate hurts f2p players trying to level with friends. No BP bonus hurts players who have gotten to 50 but now have to grind much longer to get items for the end-game which in turn keeps people OUT of NF. Lastly RPs... I understand everyone got nerfed across the board, but when I kill a RR12 and get 1200 RPs, I would have been better off farming Doppelgangers for 400 a pop and making more hourly. FYI for anyone who doesn't know, you don't get ANY bonuses for RPs/BPs even with the 10% buff tokens I got for coming back as f2p. They don't work..
Of course there are other much less important annoying restrictions with f2p, but honestly I definitely expect restrictions, they are a reason to pay the sub. But considering population where it is, the above restrictions need to be tweaked to allow a better experience for f2p
While i personally do appreciate "communication" from BS (or you directly), i, as most on this forum, have an opinion on your statement. While you advise that we do not "listen to rumors and react based on rumors" , i will say that i personally will not. Its easy to react to rumors based on history. Look back at how long EC took, how it is openly chastised now for failure. How there is a lack of empathy or concern to the amount of paying customers (and EC accounts who would be potential customers). While you look at it as the rumor mill running wild. How can you expect your playerbase, paying or otherwise to sit on their thumbs and wait on "the next big thing"?, when EC was proposed years ago, projected to go live a year before release and then (from MY PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE) fail miserably?
The "just wait" we have bigger things planned thing has been played out. Lack of communication has been a major flaw in the BS business model for a while now.
I think the game has gotten better since I left, the population on the other hand is still low. Like I said if @Broadsword can clean up some of the restrictions and make it more enticing for returning players then it can be good.
Right now the only thing keeping me from subbing is:
#1 population
#2 knowing that if I do sub and don't like it, I can't go back as a f2p account (time constraints IRL play a factor in this too, knowing that right now I can log in and catch up with friends and do some PvE for templating for an hour at a time, but if I sub and realize it's still not for me right now then there's no going back
With my job, if i make a server change, i work with a change management form. If my server change fails, then i have to provide a roll back plan. The problem is while the community "waits" on BS to determine if EC is a failure or a success.
I have a family to feed so i'm way more pro-active at my job. If my customers complain, then i reach out to them pretty quick and try to determine where i went wrong or how i can make it right, and go forward.
Either way, they win. I am back and paying my sub for now. I guess playing craps and rolling the dice is one approach. As long as the lights are staying on, i guess its working, right?
1 - Ease EC restrictions by a very large margin to actually achieve what it set out to accomplish but failed to: get returning players back.
2 - Remove realm timers so there can be 8v8 action again as the only action is zerg v zerg now. 8v8 groups cannot even set up 8v8 draft fights with players that dont want to zerg. We used to do all the time and would fight on EV south plain and stay out of the mass zergs fights. Now it is impossible without having to wait a 15-minute "time out" in-between fights. No one wants to wait 15 in between each fight so best to just log for the night or join the zergs.
3 - After that, focus on the massive undertaking of rolling out a progression server (which I know will truly be huge for the game's resurgence). I doubt this will come in 2020 or even 2021 but am very very hopeful. My fear is the game dies before the release. Or even if it doesn't die, there are clearly easier, quicker, and smarter things BS can do beforehand,
How will the new server revive Ywain?
The hope is that by allowing players to transfer their characters from the progression server to Ywain, then more players will play on Ywain after each "reset". This is a big leap of faith.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
EC was a nice try with some outstandingly bad decisions. That does not give me the feeling that BS knows how to design these things. The lack of a communicated road-map means: they don't have one, at least none that is set in stone. Tinkering with the game without a real plan will not lead to anything good, because even the best intentions might just push this game into the wrong direction. Discussing a road map with the players means you will get notified of bad decisions early enough. Once again that doesn't give me the feeling that BS knows how to run this game.
My sophisticated guess is that after the winter holidays are over, there will be some "major" announcements that will have no positive effect on the game however. What happens after that I don't know, that mostly depends on how much money this game still generates.
Case and point tonight Hib has four diff 8’s jamming the two mid PUG’s and neither group was 8 in Mid.
Then they cry on Discord about the action...
It’s 100% laughable let them wait since they aren’t even willing to swap or fight each other.
GL
https://divoxutils.com/users/user_2ZTPHy8tjVF9LWMgujSZfCY9Mos/characters
Are you trolling me fateboi?? We can’t log onto another realm. Realm timers in 2k19 is an actual thing ... by the time we waited 1- all grp mates logged for the night or 2- enemies logged off and are on another realm or non existent
Soooo, if you have bps from the alternate server, when you transfer to ywain, you just buy your template. Done.
It'll also improve ywain pop by getting more people playing the game. Try out the game on Ywain, then pay to sub and play on the new server with friends.
And if they're smart, BS will LOCK down the realm on the new server!!! Wanna play another realm? Either A) delete all toons and reroll, or
This will work because the server by definition is temporary. Bringing back realm pride and getting rid of xrealmers will do aloooooot for rvr. Extreme? Sure. But I feel it's necessary. I don't see a single person here saying that xrealming is a positive in this game.
But Xuu, your problem wouldn't exist if population was up. Then realm timers wouldn't be so bad. I agree with realm timers. I do not agree with population numbers. Broadsword needs to lessen f2p restrictions ASAP for the sake of the game.
1 - if they received realm points from kills... then refused to wait 15 minutes to flip realms and ...
2. - If the enemies logged off - doesnt seem like there were many on to fight anyway... if you flip realms, you become the enemy, right?
So no, he wasnt trolling you, unless you're one of those 4- 8 man groups who would rather run around jamming 4 mans all night. How long do you think action will last like that? You can troll yourself. By the time you roll a 4 man with (3-4) 8 man groups, yes, you will have time to log and wait out your 15 minute timer... i imagine the 4 man group has either gone to pve, or logged onto their stealthers to avoid the 4-8 man groups.
A couple things I think hurt it are. Buffs and pots. I really think it's unfair for someone to enter frontiers with EC potions or worse unbuffed. Just plain cruel. They'll be total garbage and then end up quitting. Also, I can't even buff them when they join my group with my own buff bot.
I don't swap realms but it seems like a stupid restriction that they're hoping people pay to utilize.
Lastly the expired account restriction. Once my accounts go unsubbed I'm not allowed to play for a min of 180 days for EC.
I agree with pretty much all the other restrictions.
I've been keeping a close eye on the /who counts during US and EU prime time as well as the dead hours at night. Both peak and trough populations started dropping two weeks post EC release. There is more loss than gain at the moment.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
What server? I'm on ywain4.
There is only one Ywain. The numbers are only different for housing.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Oh I thought it only searched my server. My bad.
what appeal do you have in since 2006 ??
Dang, I'd have to look that one up. My appeal was to get CSR to answer a friends appeal who had been waiting in this queue for many many hours (over days - re-issuing on login). At the time in /gu and /as other appeals were getting answered, just not his. So I went to AC as an ice wiz on the 'wall' to get their attention and appealed myself. So 'my' actual appeal was answered quite quickly (within 3 minutes) - just rudely and ignorantly from CSR. Friends' appeal was never answered. #rofls.inc
Edit: sorry, 2005: https://imgur.com/MVS2SU5
Agreed; but it went to daoc support email after that.
Was Endless Conquest done to make money on new/retuning people (though more subs, micro transactions) or was it to keep your dwindling pop paying.
I would guess they would say all of the above and I think that's why it's failing. It is also why current subs are frustrated by it. It appears slot of work was done to prevent people from canceling subs and going 100% ftp. This is fine, but it looks like a ton of stuff was done to force/encourage ftp players to subscribe at some point.
The problem with this is that your trying to change your players goals from when they start ftp to when they end, and though possible is extremely difficult. And you end up with a monitozation method that gets turned into a frustrating demo of the game. Which is not how you sold it to you current player base or the retuning players.
I would suggest bs need to really decide what 1 think they want out of EC and focused the restriction purely around that (yes think buff bots, current, returning, casual or new players so that you don't get an epic fail on those too). I feel that the alternative monitozation needs to be dropped and population increase is needed at all costs. Few games die that have active players, many die multiplayer games die that have a sub critical pop.
I say remove any frustrating blocks and if needed add bonuses to the current subs. (Ie, allow xp/rp off, remove rr cap, remove xp/ bp nerf, remove back restriction, remove house use restriction)
But keep maybe the rp nerf (many games do something like this and many play the game for it's full life time without ever subscribing, but it does insentivize people to sub that "can" or play offen).
As for the class restrictions I'm still a bit torn on it, it all comes down to how many people you plan on capturing with the EC option. In other games they might call these premium classes or something but we have about 50% of them which is a horrible ration and seems to go against the very nature of Daoc.. so I guess if I was to go full ham and get people to return I would drop it.
Buff bots protection I think is fine and does not hurt legitimate new/returning players and should be in EC
I guess really just look from, how does does this hurt returning/new players and if the objective is population, then there should be very very few of them and they should be weighted to affecting the highest/latest levels of play where people are already vested in the game.
Sorry for the long post, but EC is not what I expected it would be and I'm guessing bs is thinking the same thing.
They really need a business finance person on their team...
https://divoxutils.com/users/user_2ZTPHy8tjVF9LWMgujSZfCY9Mos/characters
gawd no
wow
yeah
don't limit EC players in ANYTHING except RR
cap EC players at rr 7.
give them the full experience and force them to pay sub if they want to go beyond rr 7.
don't turn their rvr experience into a 'this is ****'.
yeah, sure, no EC bb's and all that.
we need all the players we can get and atm, the EC program ... isn't doing it.
i was afraid that the EC program was going to ... bring some players ... that would quickly quit ... and i don't think i was wrong about that. their experience in rvr is just bad.
don't gimp them, just limit them to max 60 rp to spend in RA's.
that way, they can enjoy rvr and will hit a wall in advancement where they want to really shine, they will have to sub.
You can't give someone something then take it away. Negative reinforcement has a negative reaction. You need positive reinforcement to make people feel.... Positive.... about giving you money.
That's where this patch screwed up. It negatively affected people already giving money. Like, I can't even begin to imagine what they were thinking.
Then on top of it you have to wait 6 months to play again. I'm pretty sure that 90% of the subs lost because of the negative reinforcement patch, are never coming back because of the double negative reinforcement of a 6mo wait.
Edit: to be clear, I'm on board with most of the EC decisions. No dyes, rr "capped". But the buff potions and lowered xp (least make it if you group with a subscriber you get subscriber tier xp, whole point of making friends in a social game....) go way too far.
Reduced rps? Fine.
Reduced classcount/races? Fine.
But don't hurt YOUR CURRENT PAYING CUSTOMERS by making then unable to exp with friends and all the other stuff that got taken away. That's pure insanity.
Free to play should be exactly equal to paid play with the exceptions of:
Mansions
Fancy Horse and Armors
Battlefield potions
Masks and Skins
Give them reduced rps, and they might switch to sub, when population is worth it.
Pretty much this right here. The volume of restrictions on EC accounts is horrid. Do what other FTP markets have done. "Game is free to play" - "If you'd like enhanced XP/RP, Housing, Cosmetics, Unique Potions, etc., then subscribe". Other than that there should be no other difference between a subbed account and EC account.
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
I didn't even know that the Free2Play Mode launched if i didn't google it myself.
Of course the numbers of players is shrinking due to no promotion. There are tons of MMORPGs out there, if you don't promote even the launch of F2P Mode, it doesnt exist.
Maybe it's also time for developing a 'Dark Age of Camelot 2'? But i think EA won't do it..
Founder/GM of Ásatrúar, guild of Miðgarðr
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47 that are in nf
Alb 174. I checked by myself.
Didnt think the difference is such big.
Why we have no underpop bonus....................?
@Carol_Broadsword