This entire thread seems sort of laughable to me. It sounds like people want to have their cake and eat it too.
They already heal and CC - what other roles do they need to be able to fill?
I don't think it's obscene that people want to consider giving them the option for damage - but some of the ways requested seem odd.
Off the cuff ideas...
- A "stance" wherein their healing output and CC duration are severely reduced for a temporary damage boost. The reduction should last longer than the boost as an "exhaustion" style mechanic ala Arrogance charge.
- Consider giving them a weapon line, albeit requiring consideration of their new overall abilities.
- Change their base damage table upwards, requiring consideration of their new overall abilities.
Giving them castable spells and pets starts to add more utility to a class with plenty. If they want to whack **** with a hammer, give up some of what makes the class desireable in spite of their lack of DPS.
Clerics have Heals, CC and damage; Druids have heals, CC, and Damage --- but Healers can't; and yes a PAC healer is PRIMARY CC, but an AUG healer isn't and still has no inherent dps. Why is it ONLY the healer that has to, in your scenario, choose to give ups something when they have less to begin with?
Again, I don't think it will change, but your argument is flawed.
Clerics have Heals, CC and damage; Druids have heals, CC, and Damage --- but Healers can't; and yes a PAC healer is PRIMARY CC, but an AUG healer isn't and still has no inherent dps. Why is it ONLY the healer that has to, in your scenario, choose to give ups something when they have less to begin with?
Again, I don't think it will change, but your argument is flawed.
Well since you brought it up, lets compare apples to oranges. Lets look at "CC".
Clerics have access to insta PBAOE mez, insta PBAOE snare, castable single target stun, castable single target mez.
Healers have instant instant single target mez, instant aoe mez, castable aoe mez, insant single target stun, instant aoe stun, castable aoe stun, castable single target stun, demez, castable castable aoe amnesia and castable single target root and zephyer.
So yes, clerics get some DPS but they don't get any of the other toys healers have and that is the trade-off here. They can do some DPS or even spec for it, but in none of those scenarios do they have access to the kind of ridiculous CC healers have.
Xyor are you thinking Healers should get some DPS but Clerics should get instant AOE stun. castable aoe stun, instant AOE mez, root, sojo, etc. I could probably support that.
"But only if you spec for it!" -- Right, so healers have to spec to get these toys. As I've said over and over in here, if DPS were put somewhere in the spec lines that those toys were not available (aka they had to "give them up" as a trade off for DPS) than fine but with the way the current spell lines are laid out the DPS would have to sit at something like 50 Aug or Mend. If its placed too low and healers could split spec for DPS and all that ridiculous CC than it would be too powerful. The problem is in the Pac line you start to get access to really nice CC at decently low levels and the DPS would have to be designed as to balance that out.
Healers have instant instant single target mez, instant aoe mez, castable aoe mez, insant single target stun, instant aoe stun, castable aoe stun, castable single target stun, demez, castable castable aoe amnesia and castable single target root and zephyer.
A Pac healer CAN have this; depending on spec and how low in heals he/she wants to go, an aug healer DOESNT have said access; level of the spell, especially for CC matters and you cant be a decent healer and have all that CC you say. The PAC healer is the PRIMAY CC for MID -- SO MUCH MORE COMPARABLE TO A BARD OR SORC. <so much so that when we had discussions with the devs that's where they (PAC's) were discussed>.
An AUG HEALER has none of that castable aoe, and is more comprable to a DRUID who has -- wait for it, DPS AND A PET -- which you conveniently forget ... so if you want to compare apples to apples -- there is going to be a long discussion filled with things it seems are conveniently forgotten or ignored.
Finally, the discussion can not be made in a vacuum, when you talk about a toon you look at what it can add to the group and what it can do solo; healers cant do much solo at all, pac healers can do ZERO SOLO. There have been many silly little quests I cant complete on the rvr side due to the requirement for a DB --- and no one honestly cares. There are tons of toons that have access to things that don't seem to make sense and are always argued about -- but it's HERESY for inherent DPS on a healer? Simply put, I see this as the OMG HEALERS have AOE stun whine when all the crap given out to everyone else is fine....its simply overdone.
Do I think it is time for Healers to have access to inherent dps, even it is baseline-- yes --- do I think it will ever happen -- nope. Do I think there are more important things to worry about -- ABSOLUTELY, but will any of those things get addressed --I have my doubts.
I find it silly that anyone would care if healers got a small amount of DPS; like the balance of the game would be irreparably harmed if they did, but go figure.
A Pac healer CAN have this; depending on spec and how low in heals he/she wants to go, an aug healer DOESNT have said access; level of the spell, especially for CC matters and you cant be a decent healer and have all that CC you say. The PAC healer is the PRIMAY CC for MID -- SO MUCH MORE COMPARABLE TO A BARD OR SORC. <so much so that when we had discussions with the devs that's where they (PAC's) were discussed>.
An AUG HEALER has none of that castable aoe, and is more comprable to a DRUID who has -- wait for it, DPS AND A PET -- which you conveniently forget ... so if you want to compare apples to apples -- there is going to be a long discussion filled with things it seems are conveniently forgotten or ignored.
"But only if you spec for it!" -- Right, so healers have to spec to get these toys. As I've said over and over in here, if DPS were put somewhere in the spec lines that those toys were not available (aka they had to "give them up" as a trade off for DPS) than fine but with the way the current spell lines are laid out the DPS would have to sit at something like 50 Aug or Mend. If its placed too low and healers could split spec for DPS and all that ridiculous CC than it would be too powerful. The problem is in the Pac line you start to get access to really nice CC at decently low levels and the DPS would have to be designed as to balance that out.
Ironically almost everyone is missing the point of the OP...name one other class that has zero offensive ability outside of CL styles? Never mind everything else...point is right there. If we want to go along with the "healer type" analogy...how many Clerics are "just" using their heal line and never ever stun or smite? Druids never ever use their pets. Do Healers have a ton of utility? Sure they do. This is not in question nor really the point of the thread. Furthermore, this very issue was mentioned in the healers-type Pod caste few years ago with Luvly. Did Healers get anything they asked for or needed? Nope. Xyorman is right, nothing is going to change the fact of Healers in this aged game, but it still remains a clear fact, healers are the only one without offense.
I don't think everyone here is blind to it. I too have wondered why they put in quests that some classes can likely never reliably complete as well.
I think, simply put, people want it to be a give and a take. Without putting down hard numbers and abilities, it's just going to be an endless back and forth.
That and... preferably no more pets, at least not the permanent/get stuck everywhere on EV type of pets. Other mechanics can be explored. Personally think there are too many pets running around anyways.
Healer is not a druid,. If you want heals, dps and pet, play druid.
Thats what is unique about this game, all classes are , wait for it...., different!! Stop trying to make them all the same. Not all classes are suppose to be solo classes.
Healer is not a druid,. If you want heals, dps and pet, play druid.
Thats what is unique about this game, all classes are , wait for it...., different!! Stop trying to make them all the same. Not all classes are suppose to be solo classes.
Not once did I ask for that. Again, ignoring the main topic. By your logic every healer that wants some form of offensive ability should play another realm. This equates to fairness eh?
So, a mend healer (hard to find a shaman at times to fill group) going high mend to compensate for the lack of disease clear, the mend healer gives up all of that utility that a pac healer has. Clearly, the healer is giving up something already in which to fill that roll, what more could they, or should be giving up? We could trade specs and arguments all day about comparing apples to oranges, but it still comes down to the fact, that if a healer goes mend to fulfill that role in group, they are giving up a huge amount in which to do so.
I would say putting it to 50 in the mend line is way too high. First, why would you spec that as the trade off for what you get and cast times, are silly. By the time you cast clear all, you could clear half your group single targeting them. Second, not sure if this happens for the other realms, when you spec high in mend, it overwrites the lower heal lvls and makes you use the higher spec'd heal (for example lvl 31 single target heal is overwritten at the 41 single target heal). This should be not be. You should be able to choose the the spells in the line that you have spec'd on. Higher delve on heals = more power consumption that you no longer have a choice on. Third, to place it at 50 it would basically eliminate ALL other lines in which to spec in. That would be one heck of a trade off, on top of the trade off they have already made, if spec'ing mend for their group. If it were to be in the 40's lvl , that would be more feasible.
That being said, cl styles and two handed hammer hits for 65 on a cloth wearer(give and take few either way due to modifiers and damage add). The spirit pet hits for more than this...and we know how abundant those pesky sm's are playing.
To causally say if you want to do damage roll something else, is shortsighted. People who play support classes play them as they, hopefully enjoy them. Seeing a glaring issue in a class is something that should be brought to the forefront. To flippantly say roll something else, does not add to the discussion. Clearly if someone wanted to roll a druid, whose to say they don't already have one? Or a cleric or two. Assumptions, they are so much fun.
Healer is not a druid,. If you want heals, dps and pet, play druid.
Thats what is unique about this game, all classes are , wait for it...., different!! Stop trying to make them all the same. Not all classes are suppose to be solo classes.
So what would be the other toon in the game that has zero ability to solo?? That's right, there isn't any.....one of these things is not like all the others ... just one....
Healer is not a druid,. If you want heals, dps and pet, play druid.
Thats what is unique about this game, all classes are , wait for it...., different!! Stop trying to make them all the same. Not all classes are suppose to be solo classes.
So what would be the other toon in the game that has zero ability to solo?? That's right, there isn't any.....one of these things is not like all the others ... just one....
How about instead of just complaining and not contributing to this you put forth an actual proposal of where DPS and what type of DPS (melee, caster) would fit into healers spec / base lines and explain how it doesn't make them OP in small man / group but still lets them solo.
Healer is not a druid,. If you want heals, dps and pet, play druid.
Thats what is unique about this game, all classes are , wait for it...., different!! Stop trying to make them all the same. Not all classes are suppose to be solo classes.
So what would be the other toon in the game that has zero ability to solo?? That's right, there isn't any.....one of these things is not like all the others ... just one....
Guess what, only once class has access to every type of CC and access to spammable AOE stun while enjoying Sojo. You are right that one class isn't like the others although it's unsurprising you are selectively leaving out ALL of the ways it's not like the others.
Ironically almost everyone is missing the point of the OP...name one other class that has zero offensive ability outside of CL styles? Never mind everything else...point is right there. If we want to go along with the "healer type" analogy...how many Clerics are "just" using their heal line and never ever stun or smite? Druids never ever use their pets. Do Healers have a ton of utility? Sure they do. This is not in question nor really the point of the thread. Furthermore, this very issue was mentioned in the healers-type Pod caste few years ago with Luvly. Did Healers get anything they asked for or needed? Nope. Xyorman is right, nothing is going to change the fact of Healers in this aged game, but it still remains a clear fact, healers are the only one without offense.
No one is missing the point that healers don't have a DPS line, we are simply discussing the reasons and need or lack of need for it. Simply because a class lacks a certain option alone is not sufficient to grant a class access to that ability, especially the already over-preforming healing class.
Why do druids even need a pet, esp one they can ML9 and buff?
They neutered the hunter pet - which was essentially the same pet.. just sayin'
Clerics and smite and whatever this constant stun is - enough said.
Maybe it's something for BS to really look at when Mid finally gets its 3rd climber and missing class?
Ironically almost everyone is missing the point of the OP...name one other class that has zero offensive ability outside of CL styles? Never mind everything else...point is right there. If we want to go along with the "healer type" analogy...how many Clerics are "just" using their heal line and never ever stun or smite? Druids never ever use their pets. Do Healers have a ton of utility? Sure they do. This is not in question nor really the point of the thread. Furthermore, this very issue was mentioned in the healers-type Pod caste few years ago with Luvly. Did Healers get anything they asked for or needed? Nope. Xyorman is right, nothing is going to change the fact of Healers in this aged game, but it still remains a clear fact, healers are the only one without offense.
No one is missing the point that healers don't have a DPS line, we are simply discussing the reasons and need or lack of need for it. Simply because a class lacks a certain option alone is not sufficient to grant a class access to that ability, especially the already over-preforming healing class.
over performing ?
yeah, when it comes to earning RP.
and that's ONLY because every single mid group NEEDS 2 people in the group that are incapable of doing any sort of damage. no other realms requires ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY 2 of the same class in the group to be functional. so yeah, healers are over performing in RP. every group running in hib and alb has 8 people who can do damage, mid groups have only 6 people who can do damage.
at this time, you can't make a mid group without 2 healers. as a result no mid group can have more than 6 people in the group who can do damage. every alb and hib group has 8 characters that can do damage.
do i want big damage on healers, certainly not.
i want healers to have an option to do damage.
every class except for healers can solo to some degree. some classes are solo monsters, some classes can solo to some degree. some classes are very hard to solo with. healers can NEVER solo.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
i have no idea what would be the best way to give healers a damage option tbh.
a low delve nuke in mending ?
a damage add / WS buff in mending ?
a charmable pet in pac ?
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
i have no idea what would be the best way to give healers a damage option tbh.
a low delve nuke in mending ?
a damage add / WS buff in AUGMENTATION ?
a charmable pet in pac ?
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Healer is not a druid,. If you want heals, dps and pet, play druid.
Thats what is unique about this game, all classes are , wait for it...., different!! Stop trying to make them all the same. Not all classes are suppose to be solo classes.
Not once did I ask for that. Again, ignoring the main topic. By your logic every healer that wants some form of offensive ability should play another realm. This equates to fairness eh?
Yes or a different class. Like others have said, Healers have every form of CC except for AE root.
And yes Healers can do damage. You do run around with a damage add and a hammer right? Granted it is not for 500+ damage but it is still a type of damage.
But okay, you want an inherited damage. what are you willing to lose on a healer for that?
So what would be the other toon in the game that has zero ability to solo?? That's right, there isn't any.....one of these things is not like all the others ... just one....
Don't touch healers, they're just about the best performing class there is.
If you want to solo, play a class that can do that. If you want RP on your healer, well, you shouldn't have any problems finding a group since, in your words, every group needs two of them.
and that's ONLY because every single mid group NEEDS 2 people in the group that are incapable of doing any sort of damage. no other realms requires ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY 2 of the same class in the group to be functional. so yeah, healers are over performing in RP. every group running in hib and alb has 8 people who can do damage, mid groups have only 6 people who can do damage.
at this time, you can't make a mid group without 2 healers. as a result no mid group can have more than 6 people in the group who can do damage. every alb and hib group has 8 characters that can do damage.
do i want big damage on healers, certainly not.
i want healers to have an option to do damage.
every class except for healers can solo to some degree. some classes are solo monsters, some classes can solo to some degree. some classes are very hard to solo with. healers can NEVER solo.
You seriously seem to undervalue having two sojourners, two good supports (greaters, spreadheal), two demezzers, two that can mezz, two that can stun, two DI's, PR's, BoF's, two instant heals, two group instant heals, two with speed, etc. in the group. Now you want them to be able to damage also?
Oh the healers have access to everything cc again negates requests and/or discussions.
Nobody underestimates what two really good healers can do in a group...they will make or break it...not the point.
Giving them a dd shout like bard, so they can get a giggle effect and get a db would be so over the top.
And yes, two handed hammer and cl styles....damn, 500 damage? Last night i did a whooping 48 damage and an extra 36 with damage add. Don't want healers to be too op'd now.
Really think people are worried about rps when they are handed out like candy for minimal effort? Again, not the issue.
Healer is not a druid,. If you want heals, dps and pet, play druid.
Thats what is unique about this game, all classes are , wait for it...., different!! Stop trying to make them all the same. Not all classes are suppose to be solo classes.
So what would be the other toon in the game that has zero ability to solo?? That's right, there isn't any.....one of these things is not like all the others ... just one....
How about instead of just complaining and not contributing to this you put forth an actual proposal of where DPS and what type of DPS (melee, caster) would fit into healers spec / base lines and explain how it doesn't make them OP in small man / group but still lets them solo.
What I have actually said, multiple times, is that it's not a big enough issue to be addressed IMO given other changes I think are more important to spend resources on for the good of the game. I like the class, only reason I made one is they are CRITICAL to a MID group <as contrary to what most think the VAST majority of my time in this game has been running 8 or small>. I just find the vitriol and overreaction to a simple question, not posed by me, amazing.
If they choose to, put some kind of castable dd, in the aug line, again doesn't have to be much; frankly it would be simpler if they made an accommodation for healers to be able to complete quests that require db's etc -- which hasn't been done <most specifically the ones in NF> I don't think healers should be damage dealers <really on any realm>; but I don't loose sleep over Clerics or Druids having it.
As to this: You seriously seem to undervalue having two sojourners, two good supports (greaters, spreadheal), two demezzers, two that can mezz, two that can stun, two DI's, PR's, BoF's, two instant heals, two group instant heals, two with speed, etc. in the group. Now you want them to be able to damage also?
Any group can have this managed correctly -- to this I say -- SO, it is not unique to MIDGARD nor Healers.
As to tis: No one is missing the point that healers don't have a DPS line, we are simply discussing the reasons and need or lack of need for it. Simply because a class lacks a certain option alone is not sufficient to grant a class access to that ability, especially the already over-preforming healing class.
By what actual metric is a healer overperfoming? It's not about it lacking an option; it's about it being the single class in game that has NO damage option inherent in its design <while the game didn't start that way since certain classes/realms couldn't do certain things, changes over the years leave it the only one.>
Healer is not a druid,. If you want heals, dps and pet, play druid.
Thats what is unique about this game, all classes are , wait for it...., different!! Stop trying to make them all the same. Not all classes are suppose to be solo classes.
So what would be the other toon in the game that has zero ability to solo?? That's right, there isn't any.....one of these things is not like all the others ... just one....
How about instead of just complaining and not contributing to this you put forth an actual proposal of where DPS and what type of DPS (melee, caster) would fit into healers spec / base lines and explain how it doesn't make them OP in small man / group but still lets them solo.
What I have actually said, multiple times, is that it's not a big enough issue to be addressed IMO given other changes I think are more important to spend resources on for the good of the game. I like the class, only reason I made one is they are CRITICAL to a MID group <as contrary to what most think the VAST majority of my time in this game has been running 8 or small>. I just find the vitriol and overreaction to a simple question, not posed by me, amazing.
If they choose to, put some kind of castable dd, in the aug line, again doesn't have to be much; frankly it would be simpler if they made an accommodation for healers to be able to complete quests that require db's etc -- which hasn't been done <most specifically the ones in NF> I don't think healers should be damage dealers <really on any realm>; but I don't loose sleep over Clerics or Druids having it.
As to this: You seriously seem to undervalue having two sojourners, two good supports (greaters, spreadheal), two demezzers, two that can mezz, two that can stun, two DI's, PR's, BoF's, two instant heals, two group instant heals, two with speed, etc. in the group. Now you want them to be able to damage also?
Any group can have this managed correctly -- to this I say -- SO, it is not unique to MIDGARD nor Healers.>
For Hib to have the same they would need double druid double bard 2 casters
For Alb to have it they need 2 cleric 2 sorc 2 mins... So It pretty much is unique to MIDGARD because they have healers 2 of them cover what 6 classes do in other realms.
I'm sort of stunned that in a game where other classes have more legit problems as well as the game as a whole - we find ourselves on page two asking why an already excellent class can't have more.
Insta DD shouts like a Bard? Pets? Ya'll got put down the malt liquor.
For Hib to have the same they would need double druid double bard 2 casters
For Alb to have it they need 2 cleric 2 sorc 2 mins... So It pretty much is unique to MIDGARD because they have healers 2 of them cover what 6 classes do in other realms.
You're being entirely too literal but, fine -- by that logic of exact equality, mid has 2 less dps, and generally 3 less depending how sham is specced..so 5 vs 8, mebbe 6, dps on the outside vs 8 for every 8 man. We can go thru all the inequities across the board that all realms can or can not have/do, but that seems far afield from the initial point....as an FYI, no 8 man in MID runs 2 pac healers <intentionally>
For Hib to have the same they would need double druid double bard 2 casters
For Alb to have it they need 2 cleric 2 sorc 2 mins... So It pretty much is unique to MIDGARD because they have healers 2 of them cover what 6 classes do in other realms.
You're being entirely too literal but, fine -- by that logic of exact equality, mid has 2 less dps, and generally 3 less depending how sham is specced..so 5 vs 8, mebbe 6, dps on the outside vs 8 for every 8 man. We can go thru all the inequities across the board that all realms can or can not have/do, but that seems far afield from the initial point....
You were talking about them being able to group it. No one runs 2 clerics and almost no one runs 2 druids anymore. No class does everything. Healers just happen to not do damage. It's called trade offs. They have insane utility because they dont do damage. There are no quests that you HAVE to do damage besides solo quests. There have been solo healers in the past and I'm sure if someone really wanted to they could run a solo healer and get their 5 kills day.
And your last thing Shamans have a baseline dd so it doesnt matter what their spec is they have damage. so it would be 6 dps and 2 amazing support vs 8 dps. But lets face it alot of classes are there for utility over damage. Thats why wizards suck they are all damage and dont synergize at all with real group set ups. If you are worried about trying to steal death blows on your healers to finish quests you are playing the game WRONG and adding a dd or style or some pet isnt going to help it.
[quote="
You're being entirely too literal but, fine -- by that logic of exact equality, mid has 2 less dps, and generally 3 less depending how sham is specced..so 5 vs 8, mebbe 6, dps on the outside vs 8 for every 8 man. We can go thru all the inequities across the board that all realms can or can not have/do, but that seems far afield from the initial point....as an FYI, no 8 man in MID runs 2 pac healers <intentionally>[/quote]
We run a pac and a Tri healer
I keep saying the inherited damage is your dam add and weapon!!!
For Hib to have the same they would need double druid double bard 2 casters
For Alb to have it they need 2 cleric 2 sorc 2 mins... So It pretty much is unique to MIDGARD because they have healers 2 of them cover what 6 classes do in other realms.
You're being entirely too literal but, fine -- by that logic of exact equality, mid has 2 less dps, and generally 3 less depending how sham is specced..so 5 vs 8, mebbe 6, dps on the outside vs 8 for every 8 man. We can go thru all the inequities across the board that all realms can or can not have/do, but that seems far afield from the initial point....
You were talking about them being able to group it. No one runs 2 clerics and almost no one runs 2 druids anymore. No class does everything. Healers just happen to not do damage. It's called trade offs. They have insane utility because they dont do damage. There are no quests that you HAVE to do damage besides solo quests. There have been solo healers in the past and I'm sure if someone really wanted to they could run a solo healer and get their 5 kills day.
And your last thing Shamans have a baseline dd so it doesnt matter what their spec is they have damage. so it would be 6 dps and 2 amazing support vs 8 dps. But lets face it alot of classes are there for utility over damage. Thats why wizards suck they are all damage and dont synergize at all with real group set ups. If you are worried about trying to steal death blows on your healers to finish quests you are playing the game WRONG and adding a dd or style or some pet isnt going to help it.
[edited]
yes, shamans have a baseline DD, you don't hear me complain about them.
the whole argument is that a mid group has 6 people who can do damage, not 8 like any other realm group and healers can't solo.
and yes, i have a wizard (rr11L7), i like him, you don't hear me complain me about wizards.
my point is : 6 people out of 8 in a group who can do damage and no solo option.
Post edited by Driralin on
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
For Hib to have the same they would need double druid double bard 2 casters
For Alb to have it they need 2 cleric 2 sorc 2 mins... So It pretty much is unique to MIDGARD because they have healers 2 of them cover what 6 classes do in other realms.
You're being entirely too literal but, fine -- by that logic of exact equality, mid has 2 less dps, and generally 3 less depending how sham is specced..so 5 vs 8, mebbe 6, dps on the outside vs 8 for every 8 man. We can go thru all the inequities across the board that all realms can or can not have/do, but that seems far afield from the initial point....
You were talking about them being able to group it. No one runs 2 clerics and almost no one runs 2 druids anymore. No class does everything. Healers just happen to not do damage. It's called trade offs. They have insane utility because they dont do damage. There are no quests that you HAVE to do damage besides solo quests. There have been solo healers in the past and I'm sure if someone really wanted to they could run a solo healer and get their 5 kills day.
And your last thing Shamans have a baseline dd so it doesnt matter what their spec is they have damage. so it would be 6 dps and 2 amazing support vs 8 dps. But lets face it alot of classes are there for utility over damage. Thats why wizards suck they are all damage and dont synergize at all with real group set ups. If you are worried about trying to steal death blows on your healers to finish quests you are playing the game WRONG and adding a dd or style or some pet isnt going to help it.
[edited]
yes, shamans have a baseline DD, you don't hear me complain about them.
the whole argument is that a mid group has 6 people who can do damage, not 8 like any other realm group and healers can't solo.
and yes, i have a wizard (rr11L7), i like him, you don't hear me complain me about wizards.
my point is : 6 people out of 8 in a group who can do damage and no solo option.
Why wouldnt they be able to? they could before. There are a couple lone enforcer healers. Yea some things have changed more survivability with different procs but thats for everyone. If your shaman, bard, druid, warden, theurg, cleric, friar are trying to dps... then the fight is already lost or already won. Yea they have some **** damage spells but they dont really do much of anything more for interrupts or utility like snares so its not like you lose fights because a hib group flew on you and all 8 of them went balls out dps its stupid to say they have 8 dps.
Are you honestly trying to solo on your healer? Do you have your temp with 100 or so str? Or are you just complaining to complain?
Healer is probably the strongest support character I've ever played. If they were given any damage spells you would have people like me taking advantage of an all in one class. In group fights I never find myself not doing anything. It has so many forms of CC/heals/get away toys, on a healer you could always pre pop rank5 and pull out a nevermore bone and go to town with 0 concerns. Giving the class anything else at all would be a HUGE mistake
And @Muylae I'd say healers do just about the same damage with cl style as a heal friar or bard /warden. Take it from someone who has no realm pride and had played basically every class in the game. Very moot points here, a lot probably simply due to lack of understanding /experience and speculation
It's not about it lacking an option; it's about it being the single class in game that has NO damage option inherent in its design
Since they don't need damage to get groups or make RPs it clearly is entirely just about them lacking that option. I mean the second part of your statement directly contradicts the first.
I just find the vitriol and overreaction to a simple question, not posed by me, amazing.
A question doesn't have to be posed by you for it to be ridiculous. And don't worry, the fact that anyone would pose something as absurd as giving healers access to dps is amazing to us as well.
Actually that’s one thing I feel has dramatically changed frlm early DAoC is the uniqueness of the different classes. Over time a lot of classes have become a slight variation of the other. It feels like people can play all realms easily, experiment with other classes to see what could be missing on the others and just start complaining asking for more.
The healer class is extremely strong, would be bad for the spirit of the game to give them damage spells.
Druids and clerics have always had access to damage lines, that’s part of their original design.
I feel like the only trully unique class that is left in this game is the theurgist, all the others are just a different shade of grey.
Only thing I would change on healers is make the pac proc usable in rvr again, but just that would make healers too strong being able to clear pets off them in 2 seconds
I don't normally play mid. But with this topic I remembered I have a 50 healer. So I respec'd it and put the tanky kings jewelry from the throne room on him to take it out for a spin. Solo on a healer sucks. But after a day of playing off and on today I got 2 solo kills, 3 deathblows. I am not even good at this game. Used free gear, soul crusher(?dragon drop one hand hammer with omni and haste proc) and a pictish great hammer. Champ styles seem to hit for about the same as my warden with ml styles. Plenty of toys to reset and heal during fight. Was 3L0 at start, logged at 3L2. 23 mend, 39 aug, 29 pac. I am by no means good at this game, but I like a challenge. In my opinion healers are fine, just my opinion. Some of you should try it out and let us know how it goes. I would like to see the results. http://search.camelotherald.com/#/character/shrvYEJ8eY0 here is the toon
Funny stuff. Didn't realize that being able to solo on a class was the new standard. And, in regards to not being able to complete solo quests...how many people, on any class, actually do the solo quest? As someone who runs around alone all the time, I can't complete the daily 'friends' quest....what a weird thing to complain about.
God, so much to say and so little effort to say it....
1. For the ones saying they need a dps line, others have said fine. Give them a weapon line. Problem solved. But that isn't what those complaining want, they want to keep their current spec and toys AND add dps, which is just short sighted and stupid.
2. Using the solo task as a reason healers need dps is also not good logic. As a Healer they are based around grouping. There are many classes that have a hard time completing solo tasks. I play a ranger and solo, should I ask for more group friendly abilities, while keeping my soloable abilities in place, just because its harder for me to get a group? That is what you are asking for here.
Adding a mele line for them and keeping their skill points the same gives the op his wish and you will see 1 or 2 quality solo healers and the rest will play the toon as it was designed, in a group setting as support. Those that spec mele lines will also have a harder time getting groups because groups don't need a healer to hit people. They need a healer tp heal and cc.
People mention cleric, but a cleric can't be a good healer AND a good dps output. Thats the way most "healer" classss in this game are put together. Finally, if you want to play a class that can put out dps then play one. Don't make a healer and then be upset because he doesn't put out dps like other classes.
People mention cleric, but a cleric can't be a good healer AND a good dps output. Thats the way most "healer" classss in this game are put together. Finally, if you want to play a class that can put out dps then play one. Don't make a healer and then be upset because he doesn't put out dps like other classes.
They only mentioned things with **** dps friars, wardens.. shaman and druid dd sucks unless its debuffed for you and still you arent going to have spell pierce and damage in your template for groups
It's not about it lacking an option; it's about it being the single class in game that has NO damage option inherent in its design
Since they don't need damage to get groups or make RPs it clearly is entirely just about them lacking that option. I mean the second part of your statement directly contradicts the first.
healers can't solo. that simple
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
and that's ONLY because every single mid group NEEDS 2 people in the group that are incapable of doing any sort of damage. no other realms requires ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY 2 of the same class in the group to be functional. so yeah, healers are over performing in RP. every group running in hib and alb has 8 people who can do damage, mid groups have only 6 people who can do damage.
at this time, you can't make a mid group without 2 healers. as a result no mid group can have more than 6 people in the group who can do damage. every alb and hib group has 8 characters that can do damage.
do i want big damage on healers, certainly not.
i want healers to have an option to do damage.
every class except for healers can solo to some degree. some classes are solo monsters, some classes can solo to some degree. some classes are very hard to solo with. healers can NEVER solo.
You seriously seem to undervalue having two sojourners, two good supports (greaters, spreadheal), two demezzers, two that can mezz, two that can stun, two DI's, PR's, BoF's, two instant heals, two group instant heals, two with speed, etc. in the group. Now you want them to be able to damage also?
some moderate, no high level damage, yes
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
and that's ONLY because every single mid group NEEDS 2 people in the group that are incapable of doing any sort of damage. no other realms requires ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY 2 of the same class in the group to be functional. so yeah, healers are over performing in RP. every group running in hib and alb has 8 people who can do damage, mid groups have only 6 people who can do damage.
at this time, you can't make a mid group without 2 healers. as a result no mid group can have more than 6 people in the group who can do damage. every alb and hib group has 8 characters that can do damage.
do i want big damage on healers, certainly not.
i want healers to have an option to do damage.
every class except for healers can solo to some degree. some classes are solo monsters, some classes can solo to some degree. some classes are very hard to solo with. healers can NEVER solo.
You seriously seem to undervalue having two sojourners, two good supports (greaters, spreadheal), two demezzers, two that can mezz, two that can stun, two DI's, PR's, BoF's, two instant heals, two group instant heals, two with speed, etc. in the group. Now you want them to be able to damage also?
some moderate, no high level damage, yes
What are they giving up for this? They are the best support class in game at the moment and I really don't get why they need to be able to do damage.. (There was a solo healer that ripped people up and even beat a few really good players on it).
I really hope that this thread isn't being taken seriously lol.
and that's ONLY because every single mid group NEEDS 2 people in the group that are incapable of doing any sort of damage. no other realms requires ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY 2 of the same class in the group to be functional. so yeah, healers are over performing in RP. every group running in hib and alb has 8 people who can do damage, mid groups have only 6 people who can do damage.
at this time, you can't make a mid group without 2 healers. as a result no mid group can have more than 6 people in the group who can do damage. every alb and hib group has 8 characters that can do damage.
do i want big damage on healers, certainly not.
i want healers to have an option to do damage.
every class except for healers can solo to some degree. some classes are solo monsters, some classes can solo to some degree. some classes are very hard to solo with. healers can NEVER solo.
You seriously seem to undervalue having two sojourners, two good supports (greaters, spreadheal), two demezzers, two that can mezz, two that can stun, two DI's, PR's, BoF's, two instant heals, two group instant heals, two with speed, etc. in the group. Now you want them to be able to damage also?
some moderate, no high level damage, yes
What are they giving up for this? They are the best support class in game at the moment and I really don't get why they need to be able to do damage.. (There was a solo healer that ripped people up and even beat a few really good players on it).
I really hope that this thread isn't being taken seriously lol.
Same @Laddimyr. Props to all those posting that are pointing out the obvious at how ludicrous the concept of this 'discussion' is.
To those of you out there arguing about the 6/8 dps remark. Please, by all means, make a mid 8man with full dps and 0 healers and then you'll see how incredibly resourceful healers are.
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Clerics have Heals, CC and damage; Druids have heals, CC, and Damage --- but Healers can't; and yes a PAC healer is PRIMARY CC, but an AUG healer isn't and still has no inherent dps. Why is it ONLY the healer that has to, in your scenario, choose to give ups something when they have less to begin with?
Again, I don't think it will change, but your argument is flawed.
Well since you brought it up, lets compare apples to oranges. Lets look at "CC".
Clerics have access to insta PBAOE mez, insta PBAOE snare, castable single target stun, castable single target mez.
Healers have instant instant single target mez, instant aoe mez, castable aoe mez, insant single target stun, instant aoe stun, castable aoe stun, castable single target stun, demez, castable castable aoe amnesia and castable single target root and zephyer.
So yes, clerics get some DPS but they don't get any of the other toys healers have and that is the trade-off here. They can do some DPS or even spec for it, but in none of those scenarios do they have access to the kind of ridiculous CC healers have.
Xyor are you thinking Healers should get some DPS but Clerics should get instant AOE stun. castable aoe stun, instant AOE mez, root, sojo, etc. I could probably support that.
"But only if you spec for it!" -- Right, so healers have to spec to get these toys. As I've said over and over in here, if DPS were put somewhere in the spec lines that those toys were not available (aka they had to "give them up" as a trade off for DPS) than fine but with the way the current spell lines are laid out the DPS would have to sit at something like 50 Aug or Mend. If its placed too low and healers could split spec for DPS and all that ridiculous CC than it would be too powerful. The problem is in the Pac line you start to get access to really nice CC at decently low levels and the DPS would have to be designed as to balance that out.
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A Pac healer CAN have this; depending on spec and how low in heals he/she wants to go, an aug healer DOESNT have said access; level of the spell, especially for CC matters and you cant be a decent healer and have all that CC you say. The PAC healer is the PRIMAY CC for MID -- SO MUCH MORE COMPARABLE TO A BARD OR SORC. <so much so that when we had discussions with the devs that's where they (PAC's) were discussed>.
An AUG HEALER has none of that castable aoe, and is more comprable to a DRUID who has -- wait for it, DPS AND A PET -- which you conveniently forget ... so if you want to compare apples to apples -- there is going to be a long discussion filled with things it seems are conveniently forgotten or ignored.
Finally, the discussion can not be made in a vacuum, when you talk about a toon you look at what it can add to the group and what it can do solo; healers cant do much solo at all, pac healers can do ZERO SOLO. There have been many silly little quests I cant complete on the rvr side due to the requirement for a DB --- and no one honestly cares. There are tons of toons that have access to things that don't seem to make sense and are always argued about -- but it's HERESY for inherent DPS on a healer? Simply put, I see this as the OMG HEALERS have AOE stun whine when all the crap given out to everyone else is fine....its simply overdone.
Do I think it is time for Healers to have access to inherent dps, even it is baseline-- yes --- do I think it will ever happen -- nope. Do I think there are more important things to worry about -- ABSOLUTELY, but will any of those things get addressed --I have my doubts.
I find it silly that anyone would care if healers got a small amount of DPS; like the balance of the game would be irreparably harmed if they did, but go figure.
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I think, simply put, people want it to be a give and a take. Without putting down hard numbers and abilities, it's just going to be an endless back and forth.
That and... preferably no more pets, at least not the permanent/get stuck everywhere on EV type of pets. Other mechanics can be explored. Personally think there are too many pets running around anyways.
Thats what is unique about this game, all classes are , wait for it...., different!! Stop trying to make them all the same. Not all classes are suppose to be solo classes.
Not once did I ask for that. Again, ignoring the main topic. By your logic every healer that wants some form of offensive ability should play another realm. This equates to fairness eh?
I would say putting it to 50 in the mend line is way too high. First, why would you spec that as the trade off for what you get and cast times, are silly. By the time you cast clear all, you could clear half your group single targeting them. Second, not sure if this happens for the other realms, when you spec high in mend, it overwrites the lower heal lvls and makes you use the higher spec'd heal (for example lvl 31 single target heal is overwritten at the 41 single target heal). This should be not be. You should be able to choose the the spells in the line that you have spec'd on. Higher delve on heals = more power consumption that you no longer have a choice on. Third, to place it at 50 it would basically eliminate ALL other lines in which to spec in. That would be one heck of a trade off, on top of the trade off they have already made, if spec'ing mend for their group. If it were to be in the 40's lvl , that would be more feasible.
That being said, cl styles and two handed hammer hits for 65 on a cloth wearer(give and take few either way due to modifiers and damage add). The spirit pet hits for more than this...and we know how abundant those pesky sm's are playing.
To causally say if you want to do damage roll something else, is shortsighted. People who play support classes play them as they, hopefully enjoy them. Seeing a glaring issue in a class is something that should be brought to the forefront. To flippantly say roll something else, does not add to the discussion. Clearly if someone wanted to roll a druid, whose to say they don't already have one? Or a cleric or two. Assumptions, they are so much fun.
So what would be the other toon in the game that has zero ability to solo?? That's right, there isn't any.....one of these things is not like all the others ... just one....
How about instead of just complaining and not contributing to this you put forth an actual proposal of where DPS and what type of DPS (melee, caster) would fit into healers spec / base lines and explain how it doesn't make them OP in small man / group but still lets them solo.
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Guess what, only once class has access to every type of CC and access to spammable AOE stun while enjoying Sojo. You are right that one class isn't like the others although it's unsurprising you are selectively leaving out ALL of the ways it's not like the others.
No one is missing the point that healers don't have a DPS line, we are simply discussing the reasons and need or lack of need for it. Simply because a class lacks a certain option alone is not sufficient to grant a class access to that ability, especially the already over-preforming healing class.
They neutered the hunter pet - which was essentially the same pet.. just sayin'
Clerics and smite and whatever this constant stun is - enough said.
Maybe it's something for BS to really look at when Mid finally gets its 3rd climber and missing class?
over performing ?
yeah, when it comes to earning RP.
and that's ONLY because every single mid group NEEDS 2 people in the group that are incapable of doing any sort of damage. no other realms requires ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY 2 of the same class in the group to be functional. so yeah, healers are over performing in RP. every group running in hib and alb has 8 people who can do damage, mid groups have only 6 people who can do damage.
at this time, you can't make a mid group without 2 healers. as a result no mid group can have more than 6 people in the group who can do damage. every alb and hib group has 8 characters that can do damage.
do i want big damage on healers, certainly not.
i want healers to have an option to do damage.
every class except for healers can solo to some degree. some classes are solo monsters, some classes can solo to some degree. some classes are very hard to solo with. healers can NEVER solo.
a low delve nuke in mending ?
a damage add / WS buff in mending ?
a charmable pet in pac ?
i have no idea what would be the best way to give healers a damage option tbh.
a low delve nuke in mending ?
a damage add / WS buff in AUGMENTATION ?
a charmable pet in pac ?
And yes Healers can do damage. You do run around with a damage add and a hammer right? Granted it is not for 500+ damage but it is still a type of damage.
But okay, you want an inherited damage. what are you willing to lose on a healer for that?
Don't touch healers, they're just about the best performing class there is.
If you want to solo, play a class that can do that. If you want RP on your healer, well, you shouldn't have any problems finding a group since, in your words, every group needs two of them.
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Nobody underestimates what two really good healers can do in a group...they will make or break it...not the point.
Giving them a dd shout like bard, so they can get a giggle effect and get a db would be so over the top.
And yes, two handed hammer and cl styles....damn, 500 damage? Last night i did a whooping 48 damage and an extra 36 with damage add. Don't want healers to be too op'd now.
Really think people are worried about rps when they are handed out like candy for minimal effort? Again, not the issue.
What I have actually said, multiple times, is that it's not a big enough issue to be addressed IMO given other changes I think are more important to spend resources on for the good of the game. I like the class, only reason I made one is they are CRITICAL to a MID group <as contrary to what most think the VAST majority of my time in this game has been running 8 or small>. I just find the vitriol and overreaction to a simple question, not posed by me, amazing.
If they choose to, put some kind of castable dd, in the aug line, again doesn't have to be much; frankly it would be simpler if they made an accommodation for healers to be able to complete quests that require db's etc -- which hasn't been done <most specifically the ones in NF> I don't think healers should be damage dealers <really on any realm>; but I don't loose sleep over Clerics or Druids having it.
As to this: You seriously seem to undervalue having two sojourners, two good supports (greaters, spreadheal), two demezzers, two that can mezz, two that can stun, two DI's, PR's, BoF's, two instant heals, two group instant heals, two with speed, etc. in the group. Now you want them to be able to damage also?
Any group can have this managed correctly -- to this I say -- SO, it is not unique to MIDGARD nor Healers.
As to tis:
No one is missing the point that healers don't have a DPS line, we are simply discussing the reasons and need or lack of need for it. Simply because a class lacks a certain option alone is not sufficient to grant a class access to that ability, especially the already over-preforming healing class.
By what actual metric is a healer overperfoming? It's not about it lacking an option; it's about it being the single class in game that has NO damage option inherent in its design <while the game didn't start that way since certain classes/realms couldn't do certain things, changes over the years leave it the only one.>
For Hib to have the same they would need double druid double bard 2 casters
For Alb to have it they need 2 cleric 2 sorc 2 mins... So It pretty much is unique to MIDGARD because they have healers 2 of them cover what 6 classes do in other realms.
Insta DD shouts like a Bard? Pets? Ya'll got put down the malt liquor.
For Alb to have it they need 2 cleric 2 sorc 2 mins... So It pretty much is unique to MIDGARD because they have healers 2 of them cover what 6 classes do in other realms.
You're being entirely too literal but, fine -- by that logic of exact equality, mid has 2 less dps, and generally 3 less depending how sham is specced..so 5 vs 8, mebbe 6, dps on the outside vs 8 for every 8 man. We can go thru all the inequities across the board that all realms can or can not have/do, but that seems far afield from the initial point....as an FYI, no 8 man in MID runs 2 pac healers <intentionally>
You were talking about them being able to group it. No one runs 2 clerics and almost no one runs 2 druids anymore. No class does everything. Healers just happen to not do damage. It's called trade offs. They have insane utility because they dont do damage. There are no quests that you HAVE to do damage besides solo quests. There have been solo healers in the past and I'm sure if someone really wanted to they could run a solo healer and get their 5 kills day.
And your last thing Shamans have a baseline dd so it doesnt matter what their spec is they have damage. so it would be 6 dps and 2 amazing support vs 8 dps. But lets face it alot of classes are there for utility over damage. Thats why wizards suck they are all damage and dont synergize at all with real group set ups. If you are worried about trying to steal death blows on your healers to finish quests you are playing the game WRONG and adding a dd or style or some pet isnt going to help it.
You're being entirely too literal but, fine -- by that logic of exact equality, mid has 2 less dps, and generally 3 less depending how sham is specced..so 5 vs 8, mebbe 6, dps on the outside vs 8 for every 8 man. We can go thru all the inequities across the board that all realms can or can not have/do, but that seems far afield from the initial point....as an FYI, no 8 man in MID runs 2 pac healers <intentionally>[/quote]
We run a pac and a Tri healer
I keep saying the inherited damage is your dam add and weapon!!!
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yes, shamans have a baseline DD, you don't hear me complain about them.
the whole argument is that a mid group has 6 people who can do damage, not 8 like any other realm group and healers can't solo.
and yes, i have a wizard (rr11L7), i like him, you don't hear me complain me about wizards.
my point is : 6 people out of 8 in a group who can do damage and no solo option.
Why wouldnt they be able to? they could before. There are a couple lone enforcer healers. Yea some things have changed more survivability with different procs but thats for everyone. If your shaman, bard, druid, warden, theurg, cleric, friar are trying to dps... then the fight is already lost or already won. Yea they have some **** damage spells but they dont really do much of anything more for interrupts or utility like snares so its not like you lose fights because a hib group flew on you and all 8 of them went balls out dps its stupid to say they have 8 dps.
Are you honestly trying to solo on your healer? Do you have your temp with 100 or so str? Or are you just complaining to complain?
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Since they don't need damage to get groups or make RPs it clearly is entirely just about them lacking that option. I mean the second part of your statement directly contradicts the first.
A question doesn't have to be posed by you for it to be ridiculous. And don't worry, the fact that anyone would pose something as absurd as giving healers access to dps is amazing to us as well.
The healer class is extremely strong, would be bad for the spirit of the game to give them damage spells.
Druids and clerics have always had access to damage lines, that’s part of their original design.
I feel like the only trully unique class that is left in this game is the theurgist, all the others are just a different shade of grey.
1. For the ones saying they need a dps line, others have said fine. Give them a weapon line. Problem solved. But that isn't what those complaining want, they want to keep their current spec and toys AND add dps, which is just short sighted and stupid.
2. Using the solo task as a reason healers need dps is also not good logic. As a Healer they are based around grouping. There are many classes that have a hard time completing solo tasks. I play a ranger and solo, should I ask for more group friendly abilities, while keeping my soloable abilities in place, just because its harder for me to get a group? That is what you are asking for here.
Adding a mele line for them and keeping their skill points the same gives the op his wish and you will see 1 or 2 quality solo healers and the rest will play the toon as it was designed, in a group setting as support. Those that spec mele lines will also have a harder time getting groups because groups don't need a healer to hit people. They need a healer tp heal and cc.
People mention cleric, but a cleric can't be a good healer AND a good dps output. Thats the way most "healer" classss in this game are put together. Finally, if you want to play a class that can put out dps then play one. Don't make a healer and then be upset because he doesn't put out dps like other classes.
They only mentioned things with **** dps friars, wardens.. shaman and druid dd sucks unless its debuffed for you and still you arent going to have spell pierce and damage in your template for groups
healers can't solo. that simple
some moderate, no high level damage, yes
What are they giving up for this? They are the best support class in game at the moment and I really don't get why they need to be able to do damage.. (There was a solo healer that ripped people up and even beat a few really good players on it).
I really hope that this thread isn't being taken seriously lol.
.. to the depths of the archives never to be viewed again.
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Same @Laddimyr. Props to all those posting that are pointing out the obvious at how ludicrous the concept of this 'discussion' is.
To those of you out there arguing about the 6/8 dps remark. Please, by all means, make a mid 8man with full dps and 0 healers and then you'll see how incredibly resourceful healers are.
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
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