on life-taps in general.

Muylae · November 2018

to me it always felt that life-taps that had the same delve as normal nukes and casted faster and had a hidden damage bonus and returned life were unfair.

they should cast slower and/or have a lower delve than normal nukes.

to me it seem that everything other being equal, life taps delve should be equal to a normal nuke after adjustment for life leach 'added value'.

so hypothetically, i would class a 200 delve nuke equal to 133 delve lifedrain with a 100 % life return.

the logic behind my thinking is a 133 damage + 133 heal divided by 2 (feel free to discuss this factor i propose just as an example) for being situational (you don't always need the healing part) would equal the the 200 delve normal nuke.

in no way should a life-drain have a positive damage modifier and a faster cast speed than a regular nuke and also be roughly equal delve.

Ylazul · November 2018

It's just always been this way and every class that relies heavily on lifetaps has been balanced around lifetap damage. You'd have to revamp everything.

Tyrantanic · November 2018

Ylazul wrote: »

It's just always been this way and every class that relies heavily on lifetaps has been balanced around lifetap damage. You'd have to revamp everything.

The changes made to spec lifetap damage make sense to me. Regarding baseline lifetaps (Animist, Valewalker, Sorcerer, and Cabalist), these classes certainly have not been balanced around its damage. The only exception is not being able to RR5 + MoC on a Sorc, which was disgustingly overpowered. I cannot comment on the Necromancer.

Ylazul · November 2018

Sorc RR5 + MoC was marginally stronger than SM Intercept + MoC imo. And yes if Lifetaps were to get knocked down, we'd have to see a lot of their spec lines reviewed.

Matter Sorc/Body Cab are lackluster and Mind's damage would be pretty bad.

Gavner · November 2018

Lifetaps in general been very strong especially combined with MoC. I personally been thinking on the return damage nerf, but if we want to keep the damage % return as it is, then the only option is damage. However, this would result alot of classes loose alot of DPS, while having no real replacement for it. If we would go down that route, maybe +baseline and +specline non-lifetap dmg should be implemented. I still think the easiest nerf is dmg return % nerf, but if a 179 value LT outperforms a 179 value DD, dmg might also be reasonable.

Nightmare · November 2018

17 years, and suddenly everyone is concerned with all of this change? Lets not forget for the 10 years that an SM on Mordred was killing 10v1 on a regular basis. There is literally so much utility now-a-days that any single class is not even close to being obscenely over-powered. Every single class has its demon, and there are plenty of demons to go around to give back whats being dished out.

It's honestly looking like there are some BG lifer's that are just crying in here about changes, because from an NF stand-point, all of this complaining makes zero sense whatsoever.

Ylazul · November 2018

@Nightmare Muylae is a career mid whiner, basically, and he's just angling for more Alb nerfs after Body Cabs were nerfed, because he sees a political opportunity. Nothing else.

You don't see him asking to balance Shaman baseline DoT and DZ, or Healer Stun (2s longer than other casted stuns)

RonELuvv · November 2018

....or reflect shield on shaman or AoE stun on mid @Ylazul. I sincerely hope BS knows where and who to listen to since so many people are now bitching just to see what they can get or get nerfed.

Muylae · November 2018

Ylazul wrote: »

@Nightmare Muylae is a career mid whiner, basically, and he's just angling for more Alb nerfs after Body Cabs were nerfed, because he sees a political opportunity. Nothing else.

You don't see him asking to balance Shaman baseline DoT and DZ, or Healer Stun (2s longer than other casted stuns)

my comments on lifedrains are not realm based. it's something that i felt strange since i started playing my ice wiz 17 years ago. to me it seems that lifedrains are/were just better 'value' than the nukes on pure damage casters. considering they casted faster, did more damage (due to the hidden bonus) and also healed the caster.

Ylazul · November 2018

@Muylae don't disagree with you but it's been talked about for years now. Each class that has a base lifetap has been built over the years to compensate elsewhere for having a strong base nuke.

Muylae · November 2018

in noway should a lifedrain cast FASTER than a regular DD imho, casting faster, regaining life, have a hidden damage bonus ... try to explain the logic to me.

Ylazul · November 2018

Muylae wrote: »

in noway should a lifedrain cast FASTER than a regular DD imho, casting faster, regaining life, have a hidden damage bonus ... try to explain the logic to me.

Same logic as Healer stun being 11 seconds vs 9 second Cleric stuns, or Dark SMs having a lifetap in their debuff spec when Spirit Cabs have almost nothing.

It's just an idiosyncratic balance feature.

Ylazul · November 2018

RonELuvv wrote: »

....or reflect shield on shaman or AoE stun on mid @Ylazul. I sincerely hope BS knows where and who to listen to since so many people are now bitching just to see what they can get or get nerfed.

Yep, exactly, not to mention that Thanes have the best "caster' line in the game with a 214 delve, 2.4s cast, 1700+ range nuke now.

Logged back into my Shaman and was surprised at the sheer amount of insanely powerful spells they have.

Tyrantanic · November 2018

I did some testing this evening to see what the difference in DPS (damage per second) is for several nukes on my Sorc. My findings are as follows:

Essence Devour (Level 50 / 2.5s / 179 damage / 60% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 644
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 591
- Average Casting Time = 0.98s

Mind Flay (Level 45 / 2.8s / 209 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 648
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 560
- Average Casting Time = 1.14s

Magma Crush (Level 45 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 556
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 481
- Average Casting Time = 1.14s

Major Constricting Blast (Level 49 / 3.0s 179 damage / 35% snare)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 499
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 432
- Average Casting Time = 1.27s

A few things to note when reading these values. I performed between 240 - 300 casts per spell to record an average casting time on using the chat logger. The Level 1 Training Dummy reveals the DPS cap for a particular spell. I only used the level 50 Training Dummy to see how resists impacted effective damage between spells with the same stats. Resist rates nor critical damage was incorporated into these values.

Stats: 344 Intelligence, 398 Dexterity, 10% Spell Pierce, 10% Spell Damage, 10% Casting Speed
Realm Abilities: Magery 5, Wild Power 7, Acuity 5, Focus 2

It appears that the 179 delve lifetap spell can outperform the spec 209 DD spell when damage mitigation is taken into account (Level 50 Training Dummy). However, their DPS caps are nearly identical assuming zero resists (Level 1 Training Dummy). It is very possible that the resist rates between these two spells are different which would reduce effective DPS of one spell over the other. I will test this later on in the week.

Gavner · November 2018

Surprising numbers there.

Not sure what to make out of it just yet.

Thank you for your testings!

Gavner · November 2018

SM

Stats: 332 Pie 10 SD 10 SP MoM 2

Obsidian Strike (Level 50 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 603
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 512

Death of Souls (Level 48 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 602
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 511

Extinguish Lifeforce (Level 47 / 2.5s / 184 damage / 90% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 619
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 572

Edit: Misunderstood previous test results.

Gavner · November 2018

To be more accurate, and comparable I tried to replicate your stats.

Stats: 345 Pie 10 SD 10 SP MoM 5

Obsidian Strike (Level 50 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 550

Death of Souls (Level 48 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 631
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 547

Extinguish Lifeforce (Level 47 / 2.5s / 184 damage / 90% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 649
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 614

Edit: Misunderstood previous test results.

Gavner · November 2018

My bad, did you convert it to DPS instead of pure dmg? All I did was nonsense then.

Sorry for misunderstanding, edited posts.

However, for a baseline nuke, lifetap is just amazing.

Tyrantanic · November 2018

Yes. All values are listed as DPS so casting speed is taken into account. Clearly baseline lifetap is a beast.

Gavner · November 2018

Kind of sad that makes 209 value nuke not worth to spec really. Same goes to spec lifetap, if baseline is available.

Tyrantanic · November 2018

I suspect spec lifetap will still be worth it since it's also a 2.5s cast with a higher damage delve and return %. I'll compare them on my Cabalist later.

Gavner · November 2018

As said if baseline is available. 179 vs 184 value isn't that huge, Damage return is a nice bonus, but honestly, both fine. Defo wouldn't go for it on Cabalist.

Snaillyn · November 2018

IMO, we basically have no reason to spec body other then AoE root. Totally changes my sorc spec for more utility + dmg vs less dmg overall w/dps spec

Amp_Phetamine · November 2018

Snaillyn wrote: »

IMO, we basically have no reason to spec body other then AoE root. Totally changes my sorc spec for more utility + dmg vs less dmg overall w/dps spec

iirc speccing body on sorc bridges the damage gap range from the baseline lifetap. I can't recall who actually tested it in the past but essentially if you had 0 points into body your life tap damage would range from (this is hypothetical: 30%-80%) max dps. The more you spec into body the higher the lower damage value becomes (75%-80% range lets say with composite body(39+12(?))). This was brought up when "new" dps spells were added into energy/spirit base magic lines a while back because those spells have no variance on potential DPS output whereas the older baseline dps spells did.

Gavner · November 2018

50 composite gives no variance, thats the only target with baseline nukes really.

Salix · November 2018

With the ridiculous damage melee does and casters not being able to cast when close combat happens, I think lifetaps should delve more. Melee damage has gone up, tanks have 50-75% resists vs any caster damage plus ablatives. BS has made casters irrelevant in any close quarters fights unless you have MOC 3+ and even then you use a massive amount of RA points to get even a 60% return from MOC 4.

BS reduced the benefit from caster staff bonuses and made it easier for melee to run rampant over any casters.

Give casters 50-75% melee resists to be compete with what the melee has against us.

Snaillyn · November 2018

Would be nice to have @Beetleguisse to state what spec his sorc was when tests were done to confirm said variance. @Amp_Phetamine I would assume if his body tested the dd, he had to spec for it, same with the DD/snare spec, just would be nice to know what spec he was when he was using base line nook.

Edit: maybe test up base line LT on each spec to see variance between each spec/base line LT

Rulother · November 2018

Amp_Phetamine wrote: »

Snaillyn wrote: »

IMO, we basically have no reason to spec body other then AoE root. Totally changes my sorc spec for more utility + dmg vs less dmg overall w/dps spec

iirc speccing body on sorc bridges the damage gap range from the baseline lifetap. I can't recall who actually tested it in the past but essentially if you had 0 points into body your life tap damage would range from (this is hypothetical: 30%-80%) max dps. The more you spec into body the higher the lower damage value becomes (75%-80% range lets say with composite body(39+12(?))). This was brought up when "new" dps spells were added into energy/spirit base magic lines a while back because those spells have no variance on potential DPS output whereas the older baseline dps spells did.

That's the way speccing in general works, narrows the dmg range.

Tyrantanic · November 2018

Snaillyn wrote: »

Would be nice to have @Beetleguisse to state what spec his sorc was when tests were done to confirm said variance. @Amp_Phetamine I would assume if his body tested the dd, he had to spec for it, same with the DD/snare spec, just would be nice to know what spec he was when he was using base line nook.

Edit: maybe test up base line LT on each spec to see variance between each spec/base line LT

When testing the Body spells, I was 49 Body Spec. While testing the Matter spells, I was 50 Matter spec. This was done to remove damage variance as a variable. My Sorc is also RR11 so I have +21 to All Magic Skills as well.

Amp_Phetamine · November 2018

Salix wrote: »

With the ridiculous damage melee does and casters not being able to cast when close combat happens, I think lifetaps should delve more. Melee damage has gone up, tanks have 50-75% resists vs any caster damage plus ablatives. BS has made casters irrelevant in any close quarters fights unless you have MOC 3+ and even then you use a massive amount of RA points to get even a 60% return from MOC 4.

BS reduced the benefit from caster staff bonuses and made it easier for melee to run rampant over any casters.

Give casters 50-75% melee resists to be compete with what the melee has against us.

Negative. I'm essentially a career Armsman and I can assure you that outside of the Fury ability (even running AoM 9 with capped magic resists) casters in general have almost no problems dishing out damage.

1. Melee dps against casters that don't have access to PD or high +abs spells is difficult to deal with I'd agree with you on.
2. This really only becomes difficult if you're playing a caster solo (caster vs. mdps).
3. The 50%-75% resists assuming your fighting groups and/or a heavy tank with high AoM (even then most dps spells will hit for ~300dps prior to resist debuffs).
4. Casters shouldn't be relevant in close quarters, thus the purpose of repositioning/CC.
5. Most melee dps requires speccing into AoM to deal with the dps output casters can dish out.
6. Personal opinion: caster's can easily outdamage my armsman in total dps.
7. I see no issue other than player issue.

Salix · November 2018

I solo during the day, so that is why I see the mele dps as brutal.

Amp_Phetamine · November 2018

Salix wrote: »

I solo during the day, so that is why I see the mele dps as brutal.

Aye that'd do it. Essentially, as you stated, MoC is pretty much a necessity for solo'ing on a caster.

Kairen · November 2018

@Salix - Took the words right out of my mouth. Not just tanks but most players have resists that go over what they use to be. Yeah if your a tank you should be able to take more damage, but items and group abilities have provided significant boost to player resists in general. Having to put points into ability like MOC means sacrificing your damage and boost in other damage RA's. Anyhow, I am not a fan of this approach to just nerf classes in random patches, on any side. I hate to see players abandon their class and the game because of the impact of changes. Any adjustment should be done with caution and reasoning, at the same time the class should be compensated in some way. I recall the days we use to have leads for classes it provided good communication, unfortunately not these days.

Tyrantanic · November 2018

I forgot to include the raw damage value per hit between the Training Dummies.

Essence Devour (Level 50 / 2.5s / 179 damage / 60% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy Damage = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy Damage = 581

Mind Flay (Level 45 / 2.8s / 209 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 740
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 640

Magma Crush (Level 45 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 547

Major Constricting Blast (Level 49 / 3.0s 179 damage / 35% snare)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 548

These values corroborate the claim that lifetap gets a hidden bonus over DD spells; however, that bonus does not raise the damage cap.

Ylazul · November 2018

Beetleguisse wrote: »

Yes. All values are listed as DPS so casting speed is taken into account. Clearly baseline lifetap is a beast.

Interesting - how did you break the 40% hard cap on casting speed with lifetap? I've seen dozens of tests done over decades, and have never seen this happen anywhere else.

IIRC, 2.5s casts with 396 dex have always yielded around 1.03 - 1.04s cast times.

Tyrantanic · November 2018

Ylazul wrote: »

Beetleguisse wrote: »

Yes. All values are listed as DPS so casting speed is taken into account. Clearly baseline lifetap is a beast.

Interesting - how did you break the 40% hard cap on casting speed with lifetap? I've seen dozens of tests done over decades, and have never seen this happen anywhere else.

I noticed that too. I'll have to retest this with a more continuous string of casts. I suspect there is a rounding problem.

Ylazul · November 2018

Also my understand is that hybrid nukes have a higher resist rate. I've heard 5%, but also see tests claiming 3%. This applies to snare nukes as well.

Tyrantanic · November 2018

Ylazul wrote: »

Also my understand is that hybrid nukes have a higher resist rate. I've heard 5%, but also see tests claiming 3%. This applies to snare nukes as well.

Yeah, I've been compiling information from old forums on Postcount. Since I can't seem to find any data beyond casting speeds, I plan to test them out just so it's clear.

Below are a couple useful links regarding spell damage and resist rates:

http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?187943-Magic-Damage

http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?200887-Spell-Resist

Ylazul · November 2018

Gavner wrote: »

Lifetaps in general been very strong especially combined with MoC. I personally been thinking on the return damage nerf, but if we want to keep the damage % return as it is, then the only option is damage. However, this would result alot of classes loose alot of DPS, while having no real replacement for it. If we would go down that route, maybe +baseline and +specline non-lifetap dmg should be implemented. I still think the easiest nerf is dmg return % nerf, but if a 179 value LT outperforms a 179 value DD, dmg might also be reasonable.

Sure. If we're balancing spell for spell, base lifetap should probably sit around 164-169. Then we'd need to review every caster line, and probably buff the Body Spec for both Sorcs and Cabs, as well as Matter on Sorc and Spirit on Cabalists, Fire on Wizards, and Air and Ice on Theurgists. Deathservant could get a look as well, along with Darkness on Runemasters. Animists and Vales would definitely need some compensation as well.

Then we could move on and normalize the casters some more by removing plate absorb from Warlocks, removing chambers and instants (would be about on par with Wizards), removing instants from Bonedancers, bringing Healer stun down to 9 seconds, moving AOE Disease from Shamans into specline, nerfing Shaman base DoT, bringing Thane DD down back to about 78 delve DPS (184), removing either Stun or Root from Hib casters (as no other caster can cast a stun), and a whole lot of other things to balance caster damage and caster spell lines across the board.

Tyrantanic · November 2018

Ylazul wrote: »

Gavner wrote: »

Lifetaps in general been very strong especially combined with MoC. I personally been thinking on the return damage nerf, but if we want to keep the damage % return as it is, then the only option is damage. However, this would result alot of classes loose alot of DPS, while having no real replacement for it. If we would go down that route, maybe +baseline and +specline non-lifetap dmg should be implemented. I still think the easiest nerf is dmg return % nerf, but if a 179 value LT outperforms a 179 value DD, dmg might also be reasonable.

Sure. If we're balancing spell for spell, base lifetap should probably be 164. Then we'd need to review every caster line, and probably buff the Body Spec for both Sorcs and Cabs, as well as Matter on Sorc and Spirit on Cabalists, Fire on Wizards, and Air and Ice on Theurgists. Deathservant could get a look as well, along with Darkness on Runemasters.

Then we could move on and normalize the casters some more by removing plate absorb from Warlocks, removing chambers and instants (would be about on par with Wizards), removing instants from Bonedancers, bringing Healer stun down to 9 seconds, moving AOE Disease from Shamans into specline, nerfing Shaman base DoT, bringing Thane DD down back to about 78 delve DPS (184), removing either Stun or Root from Hib casters (as no other caster can cast a stun), and a whole lot of other things to balance caster damage and caster spell lines across the board.

Honestly, reducing the base lifetap delve damage wouldn't require an overhaul for Sorcs or Cabalists. They already have sufficient utility beyond lifetap that makes them solid. The point of my testing was to verify the hidden bonus lifetap has over DD spells and to determine if baseline lifetap was outperforming baseline DD much like how spec lifetap was outperforming spec DD. My preliminary results suggest that baseline lifetap is comparable to the spec DD in Body and outperforms the baseline DD in Matter. I am not sure if this was intended and personally wouldn't care if it gets adjusted. Based on my experience playing Sorc, I can tell you I was always disappointed with the DPS output of Body spec over split-spec. These results highlight why.

Edit: The only change I would make to Sorcs is to add a DD/Snare AoE in Matter to make it a more viable line to spec in. I also think adjusting the snare component such that it ignores immunity would make it more effective (this would apply to all DD/Snares) but that may require quite a bit of testing/fine tuning to prevent it from becoming overpowered.

Ylazul · November 2018

Your results don't include resist rates, and they also break the casting hard cap, which hints at an error. The cast time is probably more like 1.03-1.04, and there is a higher resist rate at play.

If you found Body spec DPS to be lacking by comparison, I suspect I might also be because of a weaker Str/Con debuff and a lack of a pet. That to me is what really tips the scales. But Dex/Qui is amazing utility as well, it just doesn't translate directly into faster time-to-kill.

"They already have sufficient utility beyond lifetap that makes them solid."

Well, compared to Wizards, they might. Not compared to Eldritches, SMs, etc especially considering all the buffs they got recently. For example the Dark line for SMs might look like its roughly on par with Body for Sorcs, but they fit much better into groups and their debuff is more commonly used. You rarely see Matter trains for Alb. And if Sorc baseline LT outdamages a 209, the SM 184/90% LT does so even more - and it actually has a chance of healing them outside of MOC/QC because they have a pet that intercepts over 50% of attacks. A Dark SM also has a yellow con pet, one of several to choose from, while Body Sorcs are stuck with a green con. Body isn't awful, but it could use maybe a tiny boost.

I'd recommend the following to bring them up to snuff if Baseline LT got nerfed:
1. Dropping base DoT cast time to 2.6 for all classes
2. Adding a new spell to Cab Body and to Spirit each. I'd recommend something like a "Blood Bolt", 8s timer, 1500 range, 2.5s cast, 260ish delve at level 48 in Body; for Spirit, high PBAE (pet centered) damage explosion on pet recycle and an instant cast pet frenzy or shield on a 1 minute timer.
3. Buffing life transfer slightly in power, speed and efficiency. Would affect SMs as well.
4. Changing AOE D/Q in Sorc matter to AOE slow/dehaste
5. Adding another spell to Sorc Matter and Body. Maybe a 200 range PBAE stun, or whatever else would fit the Telekinesis theme. For Body, some kind of group buff or single target buff for allies. Maybe a healing received buff.
6. Dropping all spec Snare/Nuke cast times to 2.8. IIRC Matter is the only one with a 3.0s cast, but I may be missing another.

But of course we'd have to do another review and maybe slightly tweak Mid caster lines downward.

Muylae · November 2018

Beetleguisse wrote: »

I forgot to include the raw damage value per hit between the Training Dummies.

Essence Devour (Level 50 / 2.5s / 179 damage / 60% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy Damage = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy Damage = 581

Mind Flay (Level 45 / 2.8s / 209 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 740
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 640

Magma Crush (Level 45 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 547

Major Constricting Blast (Level 49 / 3.0s 179 damage / 35% snare)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 548

These values corroborate the claim that lifetap gets a hidden bonus over DD spells; however, that bonus does not raise the damage cap.

did you mention anywhere how much int you have while doing the tests ?

Muylae · November 2018

Muylae wrote: »

Beetleguisse wrote: »

I forgot to include the raw damage value per hit between the Training Dummies.

Essence Devour (Level 50 / 2.5s / 179 damage / 60% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy Damage = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy Damage = 581

Mind Flay (Level 45 / 2.8s / 209 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 740
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 640

Magma Crush (Level 45 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 547

Major Constricting Blast (Level 49 / 3.0s 179 damage / 35% snare)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 548

These values corroborate the claim that lifetap gets a hidden bonus over DD spells; however, that bonus does not raise the damage cap.

did you mention anywhere how much int you have while doing the tests ? just for the purpose of replicating the tests on other realms and classes

EDIT
ah yes, i scrolled up, 345 int

Tyrantanic · November 2018

Same as the post above, 344 Int.

on life-taps in general.

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