on life-taps in general.
to me it always felt that life-taps that had the same delve as normal nukes and casted faster and had a hidden damage bonus and returned life were unfair.
they should cast slower and/or have a lower delve than normal nukes.
to me it seem that everything other being equal, life taps delve should be equal to a normal nuke after adjustment for life leach 'added value'.
so hypothetically, i would class a 200 delve nuke equal to 133 delve lifedrain with a 100 % life return.
the logic behind my thinking is a 133 damage + 133 heal divided by 2 (feel free to discuss this factor i propose just as an example) for being situational (you don't always need the healing part) would equal the the 200 delve normal nuke.
in no way should a life-drain have a positive damage modifier and a faster cast speed than a regular nuke and also be roughly equal delve.
they should cast slower and/or have a lower delve than normal nukes.
to me it seem that everything other being equal, life taps delve should be equal to a normal nuke after adjustment for life leach 'added value'.
so hypothetically, i would class a 200 delve nuke equal to 133 delve lifedrain with a 100 % life return.
the logic behind my thinking is a 133 damage + 133 heal divided by 2 (feel free to discuss this factor i propose just as an example) for being situational (you don't always need the healing part) would equal the the 200 delve normal nuke.
in no way should a life-drain have a positive damage modifier and a faster cast speed than a regular nuke and also be roughly equal delve.
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Comments
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
The changes made to spec lifetap damage make sense to me. Regarding baseline lifetaps (Animist, Valewalker, Sorcerer, and Cabalist), these classes certainly have not been balanced around its damage. The only exception is not being able to RR5 + MoC on a Sorc, which was disgustingly overpowered. I cannot comment on the Necromancer.
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Matter Sorc/Body Cab are lackluster and Mind's damage would be pretty bad.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
It's honestly looking like there are some BG lifer's that are just crying in here about changes, because from an NF stand-point, all of this complaining makes zero sense whatsoever.
You don't see him asking to balance Shaman baseline DoT and DZ, or Healer Stun (2s longer than other casted stuns)
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
my comments on lifedrains are not realm based. it's something that i felt strange since i started playing my ice wiz 17 years ago. to me it seems that lifedrains are/were just better 'value' than the nukes on pure damage casters. considering they casted faster, did more damage (due to the hidden bonus) and also healed the caster.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Same logic as Healer stun being 11 seconds vs 9 second Cleric stuns, or Dark SMs having a lifetap in their debuff spec when Spirit Cabs have almost nothing.
It's just an idiosyncratic balance feature.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Yep, exactly, not to mention that Thanes have the best "caster' line in the game with a 214 delve, 2.4s cast, 1700+ range nuke now.
Logged back into my Shaman and was surprised at the sheer amount of insanely powerful spells they have.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Essence Devour (Level 50 / 2.5s / 179 damage / 60% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 644
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 591
- Average Casting Time = 0.98s
Mind Flay (Level 45 / 2.8s / 209 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 648
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 560
- Average Casting Time = 1.14s
Magma Crush (Level 45 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 556
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 481
- Average Casting Time = 1.14s
Major Constricting Blast (Level 49 / 3.0s 179 damage / 35% snare)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 499
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 432
- Average Casting Time = 1.27s
A few things to note when reading these values. I performed between 240 - 300 casts per spell to record an average casting time on using the chat logger. The Level 1 Training Dummy reveals the DPS cap for a particular spell. I only used the level 50 Training Dummy to see how resists impacted effective damage between spells with the same stats. Resist rates nor critical damage was incorporated into these values.
Stats: 344 Intelligence, 398 Dexterity, 10% Spell Pierce, 10% Spell Damage, 10% Casting Speed
Realm Abilities: Magery 5, Wild Power 7, Acuity 5, Focus 2
It appears that the 179 delve lifetap spell can outperform the spec 209 DD spell when damage mitigation is taken into account (Level 50 Training Dummy). However, their DPS caps are nearly identical assuming zero resists (Level 1 Training Dummy). It is very possible that the resist rates between these two spells are different which would reduce effective DPS of one spell over the other. I will test this later on in the week.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
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Not sure what to make out of it just yet.
Thank you for your testings!
Stats: 332 Pie 10 SD 10 SP MoM 2
Obsidian Strike (Level 50 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 603
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 512
Death of Souls (Level 48 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 602
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 511
Extinguish Lifeforce (Level 47 / 2.5s / 184 damage / 90% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 619
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 572
Edit: Misunderstood previous test results.
Stats: 345 Pie 10 SD 10 SP MoM 5
Obsidian Strike (Level 50 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 550
Death of Souls (Level 48 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 631
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 547
Extinguish Lifeforce (Level 47 / 2.5s / 184 damage / 90% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DMG = 649
- Level 50 Training Dummy DMG = 614
Edit: Misunderstood previous test results.
Sorry for misunderstanding, edited posts.
However, for a baseline nuke, lifetap is just amazing.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
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"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
iirc speccing body on sorc bridges the damage gap range from the baseline lifetap. I can't recall who actually tested it in the past but essentially if you had 0 points into body your life tap damage would range from (this is hypothetical: 30%-80%) max dps. The more you spec into body the higher the lower damage value becomes (75%-80% range lets say with composite body(39+12(?))). This was brought up when "new" dps spells were added into energy/spirit base magic lines a while back because those spells have no variance on potential DPS output whereas the older baseline dps spells did.
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BS reduced the benefit from caster staff bonuses and made it easier for melee to run rampant over any casters.
Give casters 50-75% melee resists to be compete with what the melee has against us.
Edit: maybe test up base line LT on each spec to see variance between each spec/base line LT
That's the way speccing in general works, narrows the dmg range.
When testing the Body spells, I was 49 Body Spec. While testing the Matter spells, I was 50 Matter spec. This was done to remove damage variance as a variable. My Sorc is also RR11 so I have +21 to All Magic Skills as well.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
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Negative. I'm essentially a career Armsman and I can assure you that outside of the Fury ability (even running AoM 9 with capped magic resists) casters in general have almost no problems dishing out damage.
1. Melee dps against casters that don't have access to PD or high +abs spells is difficult to deal with I'd agree with you on.
2. This really only becomes difficult if you're playing a caster solo (caster vs. mdps).
3. The 50%-75% resists assuming your fighting groups and/or a heavy tank with high AoM (even then most dps spells will hit for ~300dps prior to resist debuffs).
4. Casters shouldn't be relevant in close quarters, thus the purpose of repositioning/CC.
5. Most melee dps requires speccing into AoM to deal with the dps output casters can dish out.
6. Personal opinion: caster's can easily outdamage my armsman in total dps.
7. I see no issue other than player issue.
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https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
Aye that'd do it. Essentially, as you stated, MoC is pretty much a necessity for solo'ing on a caster.
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https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
Essence Devour (Level 50 / 2.5s / 179 damage / 60% life return)
- Level 1 Training Dummy Damage = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy Damage = 581
Mind Flay (Level 45 / 2.8s / 209 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 740
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 640
Magma Crush (Level 45 / 2.6s / 179 damage)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 547
Major Constricting Blast (Level 49 / 3.0s 179 damage / 35% snare)
- Level 1 Training Dummy DPS = 633
- Level 50 Training Dummy DPS = 548
These values corroborate the claim that lifetap gets a hidden bonus over DD spells; however, that bonus does not raise the damage cap.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Interesting - how did you break the 40% hard cap on casting speed with lifetap? I've seen dozens of tests done over decades, and have never seen this happen anywhere else.
IIRC, 2.5s casts with 396 dex have always yielded around 1.03 - 1.04s cast times.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I noticed that too. I'll have to retest this with a more continuous string of casts. I suspect there is a rounding problem.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Yeah, I've been compiling information from old forums on Postcount. Since I can't seem to find any data beyond casting speeds, I plan to test them out just so it's clear.
Below are a couple useful links regarding spell damage and resist rates:
http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?187943-Magic-Damage
http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?200887-Spell-Resist
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Sure. If we're balancing spell for spell, base lifetap should probably sit around 164-169. Then we'd need to review every caster line, and probably buff the Body Spec for both Sorcs and Cabs, as well as Matter on Sorc and Spirit on Cabalists, Fire on Wizards, and Air and Ice on Theurgists. Deathservant could get a look as well, along with Darkness on Runemasters. Animists and Vales would definitely need some compensation as well.
Then we could move on and normalize the casters some more by removing plate absorb from Warlocks, removing chambers and instants (would be about on par with Wizards), removing instants from Bonedancers, bringing Healer stun down to 9 seconds, moving AOE Disease from Shamans into specline, nerfing Shaman base DoT, bringing Thane DD down back to about 78 delve DPS (184), removing either Stun or Root from Hib casters (as no other caster can cast a stun), and a whole lot of other things to balance caster damage and caster spell lines across the board.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Honestly, reducing the base lifetap delve damage wouldn't require an overhaul for Sorcs or Cabalists. They already have sufficient utility beyond lifetap that makes them solid. The point of my testing was to verify the hidden bonus lifetap has over DD spells and to determine if baseline lifetap was outperforming baseline DD much like how spec lifetap was outperforming spec DD. My preliminary results suggest that baseline lifetap is comparable to the spec DD in Body and outperforms the baseline DD in Matter. I am not sure if this was intended and personally wouldn't care if it gets adjusted. Based on my experience playing Sorc, I can tell you I was always disappointed with the DPS output of Body spec over split-spec. These results highlight why.
Edit: The only change I would make to Sorcs is to add a DD/Snare AoE in Matter to make it a more viable line to spec in. I also think adjusting the snare component such that it ignores immunity would make it more effective (this would apply to all DD/Snares) but that may require quite a bit of testing/fine tuning to prevent it from becoming overpowered.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
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If you found Body spec DPS to be lacking by comparison, I suspect I might also be because of a weaker Str/Con debuff and a lack of a pet. That to me is what really tips the scales. But Dex/Qui is amazing utility as well, it just doesn't translate directly into faster time-to-kill.
"They already have sufficient utility beyond lifetap that makes them solid."
Well, compared to Wizards, they might. Not compared to Eldritches, SMs, etc especially considering all the buffs they got recently. For example the Dark line for SMs might look like its roughly on par with Body for Sorcs, but they fit much better into groups and their debuff is more commonly used. You rarely see Matter trains for Alb. And if Sorc baseline LT outdamages a 209, the SM 184/90% LT does so even more - and it actually has a chance of healing them outside of MOC/QC because they have a pet that intercepts over 50% of attacks. A Dark SM also has a yellow con pet, one of several to choose from, while Body Sorcs are stuck with a green con. Body isn't awful, but it could use maybe a tiny boost.
I'd recommend the following to bring them up to snuff if Baseline LT got nerfed:
1. Dropping base DoT cast time to 2.6 for all classes
2. Adding a new spell to Cab Body and to Spirit each. I'd recommend something like a "Blood Bolt", 8s timer, 1500 range, 2.5s cast, 260ish delve at level 48 in Body; for Spirit, high PBAE (pet centered) damage explosion on pet recycle and an instant cast pet frenzy or shield on a 1 minute timer.
3. Buffing life transfer slightly in power, speed and efficiency. Would affect SMs as well.
4. Changing AOE D/Q in Sorc matter to AOE slow/dehaste
5. Adding another spell to Sorc Matter and Body. Maybe a 200 range PBAE stun, or whatever else would fit the Telekinesis theme. For Body, some kind of group buff or single target buff for allies. Maybe a healing received buff.
6. Dropping all spec Snare/Nuke cast times to 2.8. IIRC Matter is the only one with a 3.0s cast, but I may be missing another.
But of course we'd have to do another review and maybe slightly tweak Mid caster lines downward.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
did you mention anywhere how much int you have while doing the tests ?
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/