WARDEN ± THANE ± PALADIN - proposal's

Drakuz · February 2019

i think this needs its own section.
these hybrid classes got hit with nerf's that effected other tank classes as well as these 3.

however, these particular classes are, in terms of pvp effectiveness, no where near as useful as armsmen/champion/warrior/reaver/beserker/valewalker/etc...
quit simply these 3 were the original intended "hybrid tank" classes. they have been hit by widespread nurfs effecting all other melee classes, while these 3 just get lumped in over and over again.

A Paladin's Perspective:
now my particular complain argument is for the shield spec'd paladin, once the block rate cap decreased to 60%, the effectiveness of the class was reduced a lot, as the dps side of paladin is mostly useless as other classess do it better, the utility niche of the paladin's chants are also further made useless with the advent of alchemy tradeskill.

the argument people have made in the past with regards to block rate is that it is a passive effect which is not to say it lends any skill to the gameplay in pvp combat.
so to the overworked underpaid paladin's - thats it huh? run 16chants continuously so people dont cry, and while we are being told "there is something we are doing that is lazy" seriously??... while trying to get positional's off as an option depending on what you do or like to do.

these hybrid classes need serious work, but adding more crap to the workload of stuff we already have is a bad idea also.
also adding more stuff for us to be less useful would also be a silly option.
now, i cant speak on the thane's behalf, they seem more dps focused, but for the warden and the paladin, being more defensive focused innately why not have something like Determination group ward, or added into a chant, heck for that i wouldnt mind having a 17th chant over.

but THIS particular case of (thane/warden/paladin) being less effective has been made over and over again over the course of many many years.
while we take nurfs, we are being told we dont perform well. - then why are we taking these nurfs? its not because we're OP LOL! FAR FROM IT! LOL!

we're not bad in pve, pretty good some of us are awesome. but this is a pvp oriented game, so i dont want to hear this point being raised either.
we're not number 1 either, like we used to be in pve prior to the SI classes. (necro, animist, bonedancer.)

so as new additions to the game pour in over time, over every single patch, those 3 classes, get pushed to the bottom over and over.
to repetitively being told "your not good enough, here this nurf's for you

" yes, with a smile...

if you dont believe me, look at the evolution of this game, from the beginning, and look at every patch. every expansion, every bonus, every nurf.
it has all resulted in 1 thing, pushing these 3 down, while others rise.

we have been on the repeat plz nurf me list.

once upon a time, number1 in pve. now we're... somewhere in the bottom QUARTER of choices in a group.
yes, part of this is due to player education, not knowing how useful a well played paladin can be.
how useful someone who is used to typing fuor hnudred wrods per mniute in group can be.
someone willing to work his @#$ off to make a group do well. - yet receive the same annoying comments with regards to being a less desirable class.

i hope i made my case pretty clear, and i hope someone gives it some serious thought.

i would like to hear more about this from a Warden's and a Thane's perspective as well. - because we all got boned equally.

Gavner · February 2019

Wtf, even the possible answers in this survey is completely biased. Impossible to answer.

Drakuz · February 2019

they are yes or no answers. you are for, or against.
to be for, is biased, to be against is biased.
to cause a change is acting on a bias.

you comment that it is biased, is to state the obvious.
to cause change is always biased.
to nurf is biased.
to buff is biased.

Drakuz · February 2019

what i am asking, is to look beyond that elementary base level of bias, and to /target brain; /use2.
ask yourself what the intrinsic question is, and then answer it. if you dont know anything about playing these classes, then stating that rather than "its biased" is a better answer.

Gavner · February 2019

how should the paladin be fixed?
add DPS
add Survivability
stronger Utility

how can I vote no?
nm, hf

Drakuz · February 2019

you cant answer yes or no? you cant agree or disagree?
the problem lies with you. as the questions were as specific to the optional answers as a binary code.
it is either on or off, it is either 1 or 0, it is either yes or no. you are either for or against.

you are biased towards causing problems and not answering questions.

Drakuz · February 2019

since you seem to think these are very complicated.
"impossible to answer."

than start very very simply....

state 1, explain it, tell me what you dont understand about it. and tell me HOW you would do it.

Gavner · February 2019

No, I simply not agreeing that Paladin is broken, sorry. Based on your survey thats not even an option. However, thank you for letting me vote on how they should boost your toon.

Drakuz · February 2019

then your opinion as an observer-non-participant is noted

Drakuz · February 2019

Gavner wrote: »

No, I simply not agreeing that Paladin is broken, sorry. Based on your survey thats not even an option. However, thank you for letting me vote on how they should boost your toon.

because you didnt read

Drakuz · February 2019

Gavner wrote: »

No, I simply not agreeing that Paladin is broken, sorry. Based on your survey thats not even an option. However, thank you for letting me vote on how they should boost your toon.

explain to me how these are not options:
No i like the new nerf patch for chants reducing overall effective stats
i enjoy being lazy and having less work to do.
No, this would create imbalance rending them so OP it would make other's cry.

clearly these are what you would select based on what you just said.

Drakuz · February 2019

if you cannot select those, it is clear that you dont know what was asked, so you have no knowledge of the classes in question. or the changes made including on live's newest patch.

Drakuz · February 2019

so as being unable to know or understand anything of this class, i didnt want your opinion anyways.
why dont i ask you about your opinion's on the platypus endangerment on planet xyz.

then, not only would you have no knowledgeable opinion, i would have no knowledge in asking it.
btw, you were flagged for trolling.

stating that their is no option to select "i like the way things are, no change needed" was not available to you, which was clearly available, while clearly existed a "no change needed" option.

RonELuvv · February 2019

I have to agree with @Gavner here. I don't think there is anything wrong with any of the classes you listed. Nothing. You didn't give the option of "nothing" for each of the classes. I don't think anything needs to be changed on those classes, so I didn't do the survey.

Pally- Used in all groups. Can heal like a beast, can do peeling and protection, can do good dmg w/ 2h. No, they aren't mercs, but they aren't supposed to be. They provide chants, heals, defense, and some dps. Seems fine to me. Also, almost all Albion 8 mans run with a Pally. So in other words, pallys do well in ALL forms of the game. They can solo well, small man great, used in almost all 8 mans, and they also are used in zergs.

Thane- I admit thanes aren't used alot in 8 mans, but they are used a TON in zergs. Caster/Tank hybrids. They do great in small mans and zergs. They are also pretty brutal in the solo game with a decent RR and some skill. Not all classes have to be great at everything. I think Thanes are fine in their current state.

Warden- Wardens are used in all forms of game play on Hib. I see heal wardens being asked for all the time on Hib region chat. Almost all 8 mans run a heal warden. No, they are not huge dps dealers, but they are not supposed to be. They are meant to be healers, cast bubble chant (and other chants), and generally be support. That is what they are. Asking for more dps or better block rates is just stupid. Play a Hero if you want to bodyguard. Play a BM if you want to dish out DPS. You play a warden to be a 3rd support behind druid and bard. Or you can alter the spec to get a bit more dps/defense and then run small man or solo.

Long story short, I don't agree with pretty much anything in your poll or your post. To answer your question, if your survey was not completely biased then you would have the option of "nothing needs to be changed" on all 3 of those classes. You don't feel that way so you didn't include the option. Hence, your survey is biased.

Drakuz · February 2019

biased no, unfair also no.
so let me explain the outline of this to you.

questions 1-4 deal with the tallying of being for or against.
questions 5-10 deal with if a change is needed, what needs to change in your opinion.

how do you answer both?
simple.

answer the no's on 1-4; while answering what could you change if you actually looked into modifying the class to be more rvr oriented 5-10.

all votes that are no, are subtracted from the outcomes of 5-10. as no valid change is needed. this isnt hard stuff.

Vrisslar · February 2019

Jeez lol.

If people vote no to:
Do these classes deserve a change?

They still have to pick a option in:
how should the paladin be fixed?
add DPS
add Survivability
stronger Utility

So if people say no to the class needing a fix they still have to pick a option for how to fix the class.
Still dont see the problem ?

Drakuz · February 2019

and so far 1-4 are in favor of.
so 0 subtractions are made from 5-10

so at this point, either go educate yourself on the classes, or remain confused while offering a shaking fist.

Drakuz · February 2019

Vrisslar wrote: »

Jeez lol.

If people vote no to:
Do these classes deserve a change?

They still have to pick a option in:
how should the paladin be fixed?
add DPS
add Survivability
stronger Utility

So if people say no to the class needing a fix they still have to pick a option for how to fix the class.
Still dont see the problem ?

it is then subtracted from the outcomes, while taking into consideration the overall yes/no outcome.

Drakuz · February 2019

the poll is specifically designed to ask this way:

should something change?
yes/no.
if so, then how?

Drakuz · February 2019

no if/than statement is in the poll, so this is the only way to do it.

Vrisslar · February 2019

RonELuvv wrote: »

I have to agree with @Gavner here. I don't think there is anything wrong with any of the classes you listed. Nothing. You didn't give the option of "nothing" for each of the classes. I don't think anything needs to be changed on those classes, so I didn't do the survey.

Pally- Used in all groups. Can heal like a beast, can do peeling and protection, can do good dmg w/ 2h. No, they aren't mercs, but they aren't supposed to be. They provide chants, heals, defense, and some dps. Seems fine to me. Also, almost all Albion 8 mans run with a Pally. So in other words, pallys do well in ALL forms of the game. They can solo well, small man great, used in almost all 8 mans, and they also are used in zergs.

Thane- I admit thanes aren't used alot in 8 mans, but they are used a TON in zergs. Caster/Tank hybrids. They do great in small mans and zergs. They are also pretty brutal in the solo game with a decent RR and some skill. Not all classes have to be great at everything. I think Thanes are fine in their current state.

Warden- Wardens are used in all forms of game play on Hib. I see heal wardens being asked for all the time on Hib region chat. Almost all 8 mans run a heal warden. No, they are not huge dps dealers, but they are not supposed to be. They are meant to be healers, cast bubble chant (and other chants), and generally be support. That is what they are. Asking for more dps or better block rates is just stupid. Play a Hero if you want to bodyguard. Play a BM if you want to dish out DPS. You play a warden to be a 3rd support behind druid and bard. Or you can alter the spec to get a bit more dps/defense and then run small man or solo.

Long story short, I don't agree with pretty much anything in your poll or your post. To answer your question, if your survey was not completely biased then you would have the option of "nothing needs to be changed" on all 3 of those classes. You don't feel that way so you didn't include the option. Hence, your survey is biased.

Well said @RonELuvv completely agree.

Drakuz · February 2019

so it asks you specifically:

EVEN IF YOU DONT AGREE... how would you do it if you did?
so you have to have 2 things:

1 an opinion to or not to change.
2 how should it change if so.

now i could add one more line
"i have previously answered." to 5-10

Tyrantanic · February 2019

They're working as intended. No need to make changes to any of these classes.

tald · February 2019

these classes were fine before the patch - and with the powerleak patch they are even more powerful against many classes they (may) have had issues in the past.

warden/paladin are a staple in any group - never heard of a them ever having issues getting a group and or trying to play any other playstyle.

thanes got buffed last patch.

Still trying to figure out if serious or just trolling thou.

Daelin · February 2019

RonELuvv wrote: »

I have to agree with @Gavner here. I don't think there is anything wrong with any of the classes you listed. Nothing. You didn't give the option of "nothing" for each of the classes. I don't think anything needs to be changed on those classes, so I didn't do the survey.

Pally- Used in all groups. Can heal like a beast, can do peeling and protection, can do good dmg w/ 2h. No, they aren't mercs, but they aren't supposed to be. They provide chants, heals, defense, and some dps. Seems fine to me. Also, almost all Albion 8 mans run with a Pally. So in other words, pallys do well in ALL forms of the game. They can solo well, small man great, used in almost all 8 mans, and they also are used in zergs.

Thane- I admit thanes aren't used alot in 8 mans, but they are used a TON in zergs. Caster/Tank hybrids. They do great in small mans and zergs. They are also pretty brutal in the solo game with a decent RR and some skill. Not all classes have to be great at everything. I think Thanes are fine in their current state.

Warden- Wardens are used in all forms of game play on Hib. I see heal wardens being asked for all the time on Hib region chat. Almost all 8 mans run a heal warden. No, they are not huge dps dealers, but they are not supposed to be. They are meant to be healers, cast bubble chant (and other chants), and generally be support. That is what they are. Asking for more dps or better block rates is just stupid. Play a Hero if you want to bodyguard. Play a BM if you want to dish out DPS. You play a warden to be a 3rd support behind druid and bard. Or you can alter the spec to get a bit more dps/defense and then run small man or solo.

Long story short, I don't agree with pretty much anything in your poll or your post. To answer your question, if your survey was not completely biased then you would have the option of "nothing needs to be changed" on all 3 of those classes. You don't feel that way so you didn't include the option. Hence, your survey is biased.

/Agree

Armagedden · February 2019

Yeah I took one look at this survey and said a quick "nope". Paladins are great where they are. personally as a solo, I wish they had their HoT chant back because mathematically it would gives more hp over time than this current insta heal, but it is better for groups so meh... Warden has lost some merit solo, but is still f*cking ridiculous in group play with bubble for group, great heals, and engage/kiting abilities against tanks is impossible to kill. Thane... Thanes are awesome

Fateboi · February 2019

Is this a joke ahah Pallys have gotten so much love it’s crazy. Also the Thane is one of the best range interrupters in the game also yanno ST.
Wardens maybe need some to increase their melee DPS but that’s a very big maybe...

StreetCred · February 2019

what is your perspective in this post? You complained about these three class but what is the context behind?
Solo, small man, 8man, zerg? I really don't see because you mention valewaker, champion or reaver have more utility which make really non sense to me...

Reaver, vale, champion are really great solo class indeed. Vale and reaver can shine in small man. Champion can really shine in 8man thanks to debuff and pin. But none of these 3 classes are really good in zerging for example. Reaver can be useless in 8man tbh.

If you now check paladin, they do shine in solo, they do shine in small man, they do shine in 8man, they are good in zerg. In every single play style paladin are good. They have basically good dps, they can play support if needed (super OP in small man and can be usefull in 8man). They bring celerity which is mandatory in any tank 8man albion.

If you check warden, they aren't very good in solo because fight takes very long. They do well in small man thanks to their full support ability. They are mandatory in 8man and in zerg. Basically warden is one of best support in game as they give red resistance, insane heal, bt and a incredible peeling if played correct.

What about thane? They are pretty good in solo. They shine in small man imo. In 8man they are not really played because you may prefer RM/SM/BD but to my experience thane are in really good spot in caster or hybrid group. Flying from DPS to BG/peel. What is more they just increased their single dd dps... And in zerg, thane is probably one of best class in game thanks to dd and ae hammer + ST...

It tend me to think this post is a troll because you basically picked three hybrid with tons of utility...

Below some vid from youtube. I tried to put most recent vid I could. You have some from 2015/2016 (other vid are from 2018/2019) but tbh their gameplay didn't changed in the past year (or at least how they should be played in my humble opinion).

Solo paladin pov

8man paladin pov

Solo warden pov

8man warden pov

Solo thane pov

small man thane pov

8man thane vid

Gavner · February 2019

Decent reply from @RonELuvv, @tald and @StreetCred . Hope I wasn't the only one got flagged for trolling, you bunch of uneducated ppl on this topic.

Regardless, to reply to @Daelin your usage of words like "No i like the new nerf patch for chants reducing overall effective stats" also is an issue, I do not believe paladin got new nerfs, but mostly love. Just look at paladins abilities at the release of the game when I played it the most back in '02. They got lot stronger over the years in utility, and dps, and they are very good in many situations. My lvl 40 Paladin have higher AF+ABS then my Warrior at 50 for example, not like warriors are bad at all.

If people would vote on disagreeing with you, you wouldn't know which votes to "remove" from others you say are optional but not, so the drive of this survey I still think is biased, or you simply trolling, but do not worry, I wont flag you because we have a disagreement.

Now I am going back to be a "observer-non-participant"... Good luck!

Catfood · February 2019

You're comparing 3 completely different classes with yes or no questions. what may be yes for one class could be no for another.

Wardens.
The RR5 is a joke, it's just an ML ability that these guys get for free.
I like the pet scare part of it but that's kind of a disappointment when you look at the pet scare abilities that a ranger get it would be so sexy if wardens RR5 worked similar.

Healing on a warden is amazing. the ability to pump out the numbers they do, which is similar to friar, makes them a must for groups(not including the amazing chants).

Melee Warden is a wonderful thing that few people do not take advantage of, you have a tank train with a melee warden assisting the MA or being the MA and they get that ABS debuff off for the tank train it's over for that target.

Paladins.
They bring so much utility to alb tank groups.
They have the Celerity that doesn't have to be cast, a huge insta-heal every min, they wear plate and can take a whoopin not to mention they have access to body guard and the Battle Master styles

Thanes.
Amazing ranged interrupts, they debuff there own damage type, access to all the battle master stuff. They also have tenacity which means they can spam buff shears/power/endo drain all day.

sure they aren't running in swinging there swords/hammers and shooting lightning out of there ears and leaving bodies behind them, but have you not been on the end of a spirit master debuffing for one one of these guys? it's a little stupid.

I have more experience on the Warden then the other 2 classes and i really hate the warden RR5. what i do think all 3 of these classes need are a little more weapon skill. but then again that may put them over the point to being overpowered

Edit: Also Group determination buff would be horrible everyone gets out of CC so fast now anyways.
Wardens already have the strongest resists available, with the druid counter part.
If you gave the opposite 3 resist to Pala/thane, you're going to be reducing the utility of the Friar/shaman.

Muylae · February 2019

i can't even answer half of the questions you ask.

Do these classes deserve a change?

Yes, they have been held back far too long!
No i like the new nerf patch for chants reducing overall effective stats

> they are fine.

Would a group Determination chant/buff help these classes in pvp effectiveness?

Yes, this is what this class needs to be more useful in rvr!
> No, this would create imbalance rending them so OP it would make other's cry.

How do you like the changes to Chants?

i enjoy having all of my overall effective resists lowered.
i enjoy being lazy and having less work to do.
> i don't want to change anything

do these classes need more assistance? while rolling back the previous bufff (nurf) ?

I think these classes are just fine. i like not having them in 8man's
please give this class group some love.
> the classes are fine and get groups just fine

how should thane be fixed?

Add Survivability
Add Dps
stronger Utility
group determination buff
> They are fine

how should the warden be fixed?

Add dps
Add survivability
stronger Utility
> They are fine.

how should the paladin be fixed?

add DPS
add Survivability
stronger Utility
> They are fine.

should block rate for paladin / warden / thane be increased for pvp?

yes
>no

should parry rate for paladin / warden / thane be increased?

yes
>no

should the paladin / warden / thane offer stronger resists to group?

yes
>no.

you just create a poll in which someone who doesn't agree with you can not answer the poll and any results you get are just confirmation of what you think and doesn't represent the people who don't agree with your view. therefore the poll is garbage.

Those classes are HYBRIDS, they are not supposed to be on part with the 'pure' classes in the field of speciality of the 'pure' classes. that's the trade off of being a hybrid.

DaRedANT · February 2019

Thanes and Paladins are fine. Don’t have a Warden so no comment there.

stewbeedoo · February 2019

Pallys need a nerf if anything.

Cathul · February 2019

Whoever says that Thanes need a buff must be truly ****...
They are indeed one of the most balanced classes in current RvR in many situations, although in zerg warfare if you have enough of them they are on the edge of being overpowered due to the power of rupting they can bring (with extended range buff and stuff like that). And i truly know that, mine is 11L2 right now. Buffing the Thane would make him overpowered in many situations imho.

Koe · February 2019

Drakuz wrote: »

Do these classes deserve a change?
Yes, they have been held back far too long!
No i like the new nerf patch for chants reducing overall effective stats
Would a group Determination chant/buff help these classes in pvp effectiveness?
Yes, this is what this class needs to be more useful in rvr!
No, this would create imbalance rending them so OP it would make other's cry.
How do you like the changes to Chants?
i enjoy having all of my overall effective resists lowered.
i enjoy being lazy and having less work to do.

These are not yes or no questions. There's a lot of "neither" in here.

It seems paladins are your main concern after reading your OP:

Paladins are insanely strong. If shield is your issue, at what point is your paladin being attacked in a group setup? Is it because they are group healing? Any other realm would love to have even a watered down version of a paladin. Paladins are so strong that most alb groups nowadays simply run a rej friar and a paladin instead of a cleric.

Paladin is one of the few classes I won't attack while solo unless I'm on a caster with speed. Even then they will just disengage and self heal. It's just not worth it.

Drakuz · July 2021

Odd, when you stated these are not yes or no questions, i wasn't aware i was doing the poll in a forum by asking open questions for input, thus negating it being a poll.

I think you misunderstanding this forum and open-ended questions for being an actual discussion About the poll that has yet to come.

Or, your just on the nay-say wagon.
We all saw how things went in last caledonia event. Thane = win. Warden performed with a resounding BLAH, paladins were meh.

Granted the multiplicative power of aoe stun makes a huge impact, with the thanes performing aoe dd's to back em.

Anything a warden or paladin can do is additive only and in much lower numbers (warden lower than a melee runemaster lol)

Addition and subtraction values are very very different.

Stun = death ray in rvr usually.
Aoe stun creates a mass Safe zone. Purge is limited in use whereas (aoe) stun use is not.

Aoe dmg values sitting in a safe haven = op.
Warden imo is trash, has always been trash.
Paladin is meh.
(No class above was stated with a large weapon, 2hander in mind from the begining to end of the post, assuming all are shield.)

Convert all values to irl money.
Look, its simple, i would rather have a thane hit my bank account than be broke because a warden keeps occupying my bank account.

Drakuz · July 2021

If there was a warden present, i never noticed them in the last event

puter · July 2021

Every Hib group runs a Warden. Paladins are typically in Alb tankers and hybrids. Thanes are part of the Mid energy debuff train.

They all have a spot depending on group comps. Only Wardens are less than optimal for solo because they lack DPS relative to Thanes and Paladins.

Hib in general didn't have much of a presence last Cale event. That may change next time around.

Shoke · July 2021

puter wrote: »

Every Hib group runs a Warden. Paladins are typically in Alb tankers and hybrids. Thanes are part of the Mid energy debuff train.

They all have a spot depending on group comps. Only Wardens are less than optimal for solo because they lack DPS relative to Thanes and Paladins.

Hib in general didn't have much of a presence last Cale event. That may change next time around.

Surprised you took the time to answer considering @Drakuz is an obvious troll

puter · July 2021

I had time on my hands.

Koe · July 2021

Drakuz wrote: »

just curious why you resurrected a 2.5 year old thread? I sorta cringe that my reply was the last one from Feb 19 if you searched it that way.

Muylae · August 2021

RonELuvv wrote: »

I have to agree with @Gavner here. I don't think there is anything wrong with any of the classes you listed. Nothing. You didn't give the option of "nothing" for each of the classes. I don't think anything needs to be changed on those classes, so I didn't do the survey.

Pally- Used in all groups. Can heal like a beast, can do peeling and protection, can do good dmg w/ 2h. No, they aren't mercs, but they aren't supposed to be. They provide chants, heals, defense, and some dps. Seems fine to me. Also, almost all Albion 8 mans run with a Pally. So in other words, pallys do well in ALL forms of the game. They can solo well, small man great, used in almost all 8 mans, and they also are used in zergs.

Thane- I admit thanes aren't used alot in 8 mans, but they are used a TON in zergs. Caster/Tank hybrids. They do great in small mans and zergs. They are also pretty brutal in the solo game with a decent RR and some skill. Not all classes have to be great at everything. I think Thanes are fine in their current state.

Warden- Wardens are used in all forms of game play on Hib. I see heal wardens being asked for all the time on Hib region chat. Almost all 8 mans run a heal warden. No, they are not huge dps dealers, but they are not supposed to be. They are meant to be healers, cast bubble chant (and other chants), and generally be support. That is what they are. Asking for more dps or better block rates is just stupid. Play a Hero if you want to bodyguard. Play a BM if you want to dish out DPS. You play a warden to be a 3rd support behind druid and bard. Or you can alter the spec to get a bit more dps/defense and then run small man or solo.

Long story short, I don't agree with pretty much anything in your poll or your post. To answer your question, if your survey was not completely biased then you would have the option of "nothing needs to be changed" on all 3 of those classes. You don't feel that way so you didn't include the option. Hence, your survey is biased.

yeah

DaRedANT · August 2021

DaRedANT wrote: »

Thanes and Paladins are fine. Don’t have a Warden so no comment there.

Quoting myself from 2.5 years ago.

I do have a Warden, now and they are also fine.

WARDEN ± THANE ± PALADIN - proposal's

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