What do you want on the new server that is coming?

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  • Tesc wrote: »
    How about an in process memory check at load to stop autohotkey, mojo and other 3rd party programs? Takes about 3 lines of code to implement with win api calls. Do you need help insuring a gaming environment that only relies on the game? Is it a game of rules and abilities or who programs ahk scripts the best?

    Broadsword okayed Mojo a long time ago...not sure why people are still using "scripting" as an excuse for not being competitive. Do you need scripts to be competitive? No. Do they help? Yes. You're absolutely ignorant if you think scripting > skill. But I've also heard that landing positionals is considered cheating so I guess there's no way to reason with such a crowd.
  • @Jorma Still not sure what's wrong with the expansion content. I personally like the extra ML and CL abilities. Stat caps and ToA bonuses are at a nice spot. Can reach break points and certain damage caps without having to invest a large amount of RSPs. It allows for low RR players to compete with high RR players as a result.

    Different threads.

    The irony behind players complaining about population is that they're often part of the problem. I can understand players not liking the gameplay on Ywain. However, if people don't play on Ywain because of the population then that's on them. There is really little the developers can do to entice a mass entrance of players into the game without an event or major update like F2P (BS missed their chance on that one). A new server will draw a large crowd. No doubt in my mind. But it will fall victim to staleness rapidly without continuous updates or events. In the long run, I think a seasonal server will be significantly better than a straight classic server. It gives the developers more creative freedom with minimal consequence. Nostalgia doesn't last. No classic server has or will either.
  • 3rd party programs include voice chats. Have fun RvRing without voice chat. People saying scripts are what separates the good players vs the bad would still does to those same good players regardless of a script
  • edited February 24 PM
    @Triq02_Dave oh stop it. You know what people are talking about when they say 3rd party programs.

    Players who run scripts have an edge. There was a time when they were against the rules too.
    Post edited by Grizlie on
  • @Grizlie Have you ever run a script before?
  • But it's still a 3rd party program...
  • Actually Discord has helped ruined the game too. Rainbow Six had voice comms built in for that reason. Folks will always justify unsportsmanlike behavior on the grounds of competitiveness so I dont blame Mark Maguire and Lance Armstrong here as that's what a-type narciccists do, but we should hold accountable the folks that run the league, in this case Broadsword.
  • edited February 25 PM
    @puter i downloaded auto hotkey when I returned but I never actually set up commands with it. Stopped logging in after 3 weeks I think so I just never took the time.

    I understand how it works though. And everyone I encountered swears it makes you 1,000% better which isn’t surprising. I don’t remember whose stream I was watching but one guy compared discovering it to a “Jesus moment.”
    Post edited by Grizlie on
  • puter wrote: »
    @Jorma Still not sure what's wrong with the expansion content. I personally like the extra ML and CL abilities. Stat caps and ToA bonuses are at a nice spot. Can reach break points and certain damage caps without having to invest a large amount of RSPs. It allows for low RR players to compete with high RR players as a result.
    The expansion content, the way it was implemented, made many of the older items useless, they needed to remake many of the old items to make them competetive again in later patches. The uses, procs and stat caps available on certain items in ToA made them necessary to have in your template to be competetive which led to less variety. Just because you like the ML abilities and CL abilities doesn't mean everyone likes them. Some of the ML abilities is ok and can be put in the RA pool so players have to choose what they want and what they don't want, that should lead to a bit more variety. Some of the ML abilities should not be in the game at all in my opinion. I don't think having access to more abilities makes the game better. Choosing what you want, spending spec points to train them, and choosing what you don't feel suits your playstyle the best is more appealing to me.

    I don't think weapons that resist debuff their own damage type should be in the game. If the resist debuff proc was removed from elemental weapons I would not mind them being included if a revamped ToA was introduced.

    The difference of available realm rank spec points will still be the same for high RR players compared to low RR players. I don't see how the stat caps would make the gap between low and high RR players smaller.

    I would also like to see realm points earned in the same manner it was back in patch 1.65 so that it takes longer to become high realm rank than it does on Ywain today. Some realm points for healing would be ok though.

    You seem to like the things available on Ywain and there is a perfect server to play on if you do, it is called Ywain. Unfortunately there are not enough people who like Ywain to keep the action high enough on that server to appeal to the people who wants more action. The point of the alternate ruleset server should be to attract those that don't want to play on Ywain.

    puter wrote: »
    Different threads.
    ?

    puter wrote: »
    The irony behind players complaining about population is that they're often part of the problem. I can understand players not liking the gameplay on Ywain. However, if people don't play on Ywain because of the population then that's on them. There is really little the developers can do to entice a mass entrance of players into the game without an event or major update like F2P (BS missed their chance on that one). A new server will draw a large crowd. No doubt in my mind. But it will fall victim to staleness rapidly without continuous updates or events. In the long run, I think a seasonal server will be significantly better than a straight classic server. It gives the developers more creative freedom with minimal consequence. Nostalgia doesn't last. No classic server has or will either.
    If people think it is boring to play on a server because there isn´t enough action they are in full right to not play on that server. What needs to be adressed is why the population dropped to a point where not enough action was available in the first place.
    I don't think a seasonal server would be better than a straight classic server (which for the record is not what I am hoping for). I would probably not resubscribe for a seasonal server, depending on how it is done ofcourse. If a seasonal server is such a great idea why not make Ywain a seasonal server?
    I don't mind updates in the form of later patches but there are things in those later patches that I think should be changed as I have written before.
    BS have the possibilty to run events on the alternate ruleset server as well, the two are not excluded from each other.
  • @Jorma So there's too many abilities in the expansions. You want a simpler version of the game. That's fine. The ToA bonuses bring you close to or at cap so you don't have to spend RSPs to reach them. Therefore, it inherently reduces the gap slightly between high RR and low RR characters.

    If lack of action is the reason people don't play on Ywain, then they're contributing to the vicious cycle of population decline. Population begets population. This is why I said dynamic events needs to be introduced on Live servers to keep them from getting stale. You think a classic server will be more popular than Ywain. I'm saying it won't be that way for long as the game isn't new anymore. Once the nostalgia fades, players move on. New content is rare these days, especially with a small team. You don't need to look far to see what works and keeps players in the game.
  • puter wrote: »
    @Jorma So there's too many abilities in the expansions. You want a simpler version of the game. That's fine. The ToA bonuses bring you close to or at cap so you don't have to spend RSPs to reach them. Therefore, it inherently reduces the gap slightly between high RR and low RR characters.
    I don't believe lesser amount of abilities makes the game simpler, it forces the players to make choices on what they want to have access to instead of giving everyone of a certain class access to the ability. The high as well as the low RR players would have to spend RSPs to reach the sweet spots so the gap would be the same just moved forward, some players might prioritize active RAs over stat increasing passive RAs which would add variety.

    puter wrote: »
    If lack of action is the reason people don't play on Ywain, then they're contributing to the vicious cycle of population decline. Population begets population. This is why I said dynamic events needs to be introduced on Live servers to keep them from getting stale. You think a classic server will be more popular than Ywain. I'm saying it won't be that way for long as the game isn't new anymore. Once the nostalgia fades, players move on. New content is rare these days, especially with a small team.
    The decrease of action didn't happen because people left because of lack of action, some players need to have left due to other reasons first. The reasons why the first group left is what caused the lack of action leading to the action craving people leaving the game. Fun and dynamic events would be great on all servers, I see nothing preventing BS from running such events on the alternate ruleset server. Ywain risks getting stale just as the alternate ruleset server risks getting stale. The alternate ruleset server if made as an progression server, with the things I have mentioned not included, would in my opinion not get stale as quickly as Ywain if neither of the servers had any dynamic events. If you also add dynamic events to both servers I think the alternate ruleset server would have a larger population than Ywain. Hopefully the alternate ruleset server is successful and the team is given an opportunity to grow.

    puter wrote: »
    You don't need to look far to see what works and keeps players in the game.
    Where should one look?
  • edited February 25 PM
    It is much harder to manage three bars worth of abilities than one. Not sure why you continue to argue against that by I digress.

    Yes, it does matter why people left in the first place and there are a variety of reasons over a nearly 20 year time span. No new content leads to a dead server quickly. The shard community showed that. This is why BS needs dynamic events. Again, the shard community demonstrates how effective they are at keeping players into the game. If a new server is precluding work on event based content, then any additional server is doomed to fail, imo, simply because they can't compete with what's available.
    Post edited by puter on
  • puter wrote: »
    It is much harder to manage three bars worth of abilities than one. Not sure why you continue to argue against that by I digress.
    I personally didn't think more abilities made it harder to play the game. When new abilities was introduced I felt it made different classes more evenly matched. When I played 2013 I did not have to think about whether the opponent had a big advantage over me anymore, I could attack any enemy I saw and feel I had a decent chance to win that fight. In patch 1.65 I did not feel that was the case, when playing my Nightshade I avoided attacking some classes altogether because I did not think anything was leaning in my favor in a fight against that class, I avoided some classes if they had reached a certain realm rank because I did not feel anything was leaning in my favor against that class at that realm rank, I would engage some classes independent on what realm rank they were because I felt I hade the favorable position in that fight. My view of the extra abilities added in ToA and later patches is that they removed the rock/paper/scissors approach, the game had before ToA, to a large extent. This made the game dynamic less appealing to me, and in a way made the game easier to play since you had a more even playing field between different classes on the solo scene. This is the way I feel about how the game is today and what I don't want to see on the alternate ruleset server. This is the reason I would rather see less amount of abilities rather than adding abilities that makes different classes more similar to each other or trying to make additional class unique abilities and having to find a way to balance them in a rock/paper/scissor environment.

    puter wrote: »
    Yes, it does matter why people left in the first place and there are a variety of reasons over a nearly 20 year time span. No new content leads to a dead server quickly. The shard community showed that. This is why BS needs dynamic events. Again, the shard community demonstrates how effective they are at keeping players into the game.
    New content can be added, but I would prefer if it was done without removing the rock/paper/scissor dynamic the abilities, uses and procs did with the patches after Shrouded Isles. No-one has suggested that dynamic events is a bad idea, well designed dynamic events would be great.

    puter wrote: »
    If a new server is precluding work on event based content, then any additional server is doomed to fail, imo, simply because they can't compete with what's available.
    Don't understand what you are trying to say here.
  • puter wrote: »
    If a new server is precluding work on event based content, then any additional server is doomed to fail, imo, simply because they can't compete with what's available.
    Hang on! Is what you are saying here that if the new server is too successful, by having dynamic events, you fear that Ywain will fail and be closed down?
  • edited February 25 PM
    @Jorma No.... I'm saying why pay for something you can get for free else where? The events have to come first and be unique so the new server doesn't bleed players after a month. BS is ridiculously slow when it comes down to updates / patches / new events regardless of what server it's on. This groundwork has to be established ahead of the new server. Even if they make enough money from just releasing the server to expand their team, they still have to find someone who is capable of working on code that is over two decades old witten for MUDs. Good luck. Ever notice the programmer position that's been up now for 5 years still hasn't been taken down on their website? They simply can't respond in real time to offset any population loss due to staleness. Look at what happened during quarantine...they put something out months after the population peaked.

    I have little faith in this team to be able to manage three servers when they struggle with two currently. I'm also certain it won't get better even if their revenue increases. Maybe it is true that they're rewriting the server side so they can actually hire someone to work on the game. Hard to know when there's no transparency. What I do know is that simply releasing a classic server, even with everything you think you want, will die faster than the Mythic classic servers if it's managed like Ywain and Gaheris.
    Post edited by puter on
  • edited February 25 PM
    puter wrote: »
    @Jorma No.... I'm saying why pay for something you can get for free else where?
    If done right it won't be possible to get it else where, for one the free shards doesn't allow multiple accounts as far as I know. A server that relies on people wanting to keep playing and pay to able to do so needs to take decisions the free shards don't, because they are not dependent on how many players wants to play there. They can take any stupid decision they want to take because they think it suits them and their own playing experience while a venture that wants to turn a profit have to take decisions that keep the majority of the player base as happy as possible.

    puter wrote: »
    The events have to come first and be unique so the new server doesn't bleed players after a month. BS is ridiculously slow when it comes down to updates / patches / new events regardless of what server it's on. This groundwork has to be established ahead of the new server. Even if they make enough money from just releasing the server to expand their team, they still have to find someone who is capable of working on code that is over two decades old witten for MUDs. Good luck. Ever notice the programmer position that's been up now for 5 years still hasn't been taken down on their website? They simply can't respond in real time to offset any population loss due to staleness. Look at what happened during quarantine...they put something out months after the population peaked.
    I believe the ruleset and the paper/rock/scissors dynamic needs to be established first, the events needs to be extra spice to add small goals to achieve in a short term fashion. If EA has a hard time hiring people for this project, or maybe have no interest in doing so, it will die no matter what. I would guess there are many that would like the chance to prove themselves at EA.

    puter wrote: »
    I have little faith in this team to be able to manage three servers when they struggle with two currently. I'm also certain it won't get better even if their revenue increases. Maybe it is true that they're rewriting the server side so they can actually hire someone to work on the game. Hard to know when there's no transparency. What I do know is that simply releasing a classic server, even with everything you think you want, will die faster than the Mythic classic servers if it's managed like Ywain and Gaheris.
    If they can't handle two servers, with low population, without substantial problem EA will probably can the project (DAoC) completely.

    If the revenue increases I would guess EA sees an opportunity to make money, and making money is the whole idea of a company.

    I would also like more transparency so we didn't have to speculate so much.

    The management needs improving, Ywain and Gaheris will probably be closed down even earlier, and a bit later if an alternate ruleset server is launched, if the management doesn't improve.
    Post edited by Jorma on
  • @Jorma Problem is shards can make changes on a whim to be nearly identical to whatever BS does. They really need to do more than just carbon copy an old patch set with minor adjustments. Adding a completely new frontier would be one way to differentiate themselves. Multiple accounts is nice for farming purposes and having a buff bot but neither of those should be a requirement for playing the game which makes that point moot. It's a bonus feature, hopefully not a major selling point.

    The rock/paper/scissors game is still in effect today. You really must not have played much if you think every class can kill every class. It can be true against players who don't know how to use their abilities, but again that's a skill issue and was always the case in the past. The ruleset and patch cycle is trivial. It has to be more than that. I don't think classic is as popular as you think it is. Mostly DAoC purists want it, which isn't a large crowd. You want a custom server that's more causal friendly. That is probably more popular simply because it will be easier to play than Ywain. The expansions didn't ruin the game, the player base refused to adapt.

    I think you keep confusing EA and Broadsword. EA simply owns the rights to the game. Broadsword is the team that actually works on it which is what would show on someone's resume. Unless things have changed, EA's involvement is minimal in terms of development.
  • puter wrote: »
    @Jorma Problem is shards can make changes on a whim to be nearly identical to whatever BS does. They really need to do more than just carbon copy an old patch set with minor adjustments. Adding a completely new frontier would be one way to differentiate themselves. Multiple accounts is nice for farming purposes and having a buff bot but neither of those should be a requirement for playing the game which makes that point moot. It's a bonus feature, hopefully not a major selling point.
    An improved frontier would be nice, I find the ability to play several accounts very important and would certainanly chose a server where that is possibly over a server where it isn't. Freeshards can maybe copy what is done on the live server but none of them have decided to do that, they have decided to do other changes, of which some have had the effect their player base has decreased.

    puter wrote: »
    The rock/paper/scissors game is still in effect today. You really must not have played much if you think every class can kill every class. It can be true against players who don't know how to use their abilities, but again that's a skill issue and was always the case in the past. The ruleset and patch cycle is trivial. It has to be more than that. I don't think classic is as popular as you think it is. Mostly DAoC purists want it, which isn't a large crowd. You want a custom server that's more causal friendly. That is probably more popular simply because it will be easier to play than Ywain. The expansions didn't ruin the game, the player base refused to adapt.
    Not what I experienced 2013 and a big reason to why I stopped playing. I think the ruleset and patch cycle is very important to attract people back, you like Ywain but there are many that don't, the people that needs to be attracted back to the game are those that don't like Ywain. I don't want a server that is more casual friendly than Ywain I just want a server where I find the game fun to play. The expansions did ruin the game, there is a reason so few are playing the game now and I think the reason is that Ywain isn't considered fun to play on by many people. Why would people adapt to spend time on something they don't think is fun?

    puter wrote: »
    I think you keep confusing EA and Broadsword. EA simply owns the rights to the game. Broadsword is the team that actually works on it which is what would show on someone's resume. Unless things have changed, EA's involvement is minimal in terms of development.
    FEB. 5, 2014 • Two classic Electronic Arts MMOs, Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot, are being moved from division Mythic Entertainment to a new independent studio, Broadsword Online Games. Broadsword was started by a group of Mythic alumni including co-founder Rob Denton. EA retains ownership of both MMOs along with billing and account services through its Origin online distribution service. Broadsword is partnering with EA and will carry on operation, development and support for Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot moving forward. Launched back in 1997, Ultima Online was originally developed by Origin Systems, which had been acquired by EA in 1992. Mythic Entertainment developed Dark Age of Camelot, which was originally published by Vivendi Games in 2001. Mythic was acquired by EA in 2006.

    EA is their customer and owns all rights, of course they take part in the decision making.
  • @Jorma I'm talking about a future classic server, not Ywain. Why is it important to you to have multiple accounts? I thought the population would be large enough to remove its necessity. Care to elaborate?

    So you killed every class you fought or did you die to everything you fought? The solo game was still good in 2013 so I'm having a hard time believing you. Have you tried playing since or do you remain ignorant to what Broadsword has done so far? I still don't see how the expansions ruined the game. ToA was probably the worst implemented (has been corrected a long time ago), but the rest were fine. I think we're circling back to too many abilities. That's fine. Vanilla DAoC is currently playable if you want a taste of what people are asking for.

    EA isn't supplying them with developers though. That's the deal. Which is why I stated Broadsword would be the ones hiring additional staff. EA is probably involved with marketing decisions (virtually nonexistent), platforms (see indefinitely delayed Steam release), evaluating the cost of a new server (see indefinitely delayed new server), etc. However, I highly doubt they have much input into how the game itself is ran since that's why they partnered Broadsword in the first place.
  • puter wrote: »
    @Jorma I'm talking about a future classic server, not Ywain.
    You seem to think the way Ywain developed was good, I do not.

    puter wrote: »
    Why is it important to you to have multiple accounts? I thought the population would be large enough to remove its necessity. Care to elaborate?
    Multiple accounts would make it possible to do more things on my own when my friends aren't logged in or are doing something else, it would give me the possibilty to have several houses, it would make it quicker to get all tradeskills to 1000+ being able to skill crafting on 4 accounts at the same time.

    puter wrote: »
    So you killed every class you fought or did you die to everything you fought? The solo game was still good in 2013 so I'm having a hard time believing you. Have you tried playing since or do you remain ignorant to what Broadsword has done so far? I still don't see how the expansions ruined the game. ToA was probably the worst implemented (has been corrected a long time ago), but the rest were fine. I think we're circling back to too many abilities. That's fine. Vanilla DAoC is currently playable if you want a taste of what people are asking for.
    I both killed and got killed. I did not enjoy the game at 2013 that is why I want something else on the alternate ruleset server. You think the expansions were good for the game I do not. I think there are more people that don't like how the expansions changed the game than there are people that like how the expansions changed the game. There is no DAoC server running that appeals to me at the moment, I am hoping the alternate ruleset server will be a server that appeals to me.

    puter wrote: »
    EA isn't supplying them with developers though. That's the deal. Which is why I stated Broadsword would be the ones hiring additional staff. EA is probably involved with marketing decisions (virtually nonexistent), platforms (see indefinitely delayed Steam release), evaluating the cost of a new server (see indefinitely delayed new server), etc. However, I highly doubt they have much input into how the game itself is ran since that's why they partnered Broadsword in the first place.
    If a team member on Broadsword makes a good job I think EA will be aware of that. I would think a company keeps check on how their intellectual property is handled.
  • @Jorma Must be a language barrier because you seem to misunderstand me. If a classic server is released by BS that can be easily adapted by a shard, then the official server will die. Hence my point that it has to be unique in more ways than patch setting. Ywain doesn't have this problem simply because there is taboo around ToA alone.

    Sounds to me like you're part of the problem based on what other pro-classic players want, even in this thread. Why do you need to do more solo when there should be a sufficient population to work with? This is a MMO, not a single player game after all. Owning several houses when a server first launches is a dick move really. So you want tradeskills to level faster...that's against the classic way even for some on this very thread. BS should probably look to the ML9 boss on how to improve the crafting system so you don't have to pay $60/month to level faster.

    You haven't really addressed what you don't like about Ywain other than you don't like it. It's really hard to address issues when you're vague. What about the expansions ruined the game? Do you hate having to build templates and want something that caps all your stats/resists without issues? Do you hate having access to situational based abilities and just want one hotbar to manage? Do you hate having to land positionals to maximize your dps and just want to /stick while letting the RNG gods decide the fate of the fight? Most arguments I hear from players who haven't played in over a decade is ToA. The problems that came with ToA have long been corrected and therefore is a non-issue in modern DAoC. I've played through all variations of DAoC since release and honestly don't see the benefit beyond simplifying the game AND catering to nostalgia, which is fleeting.

    Why work for Broadsword when you could work on more popular/profitable projects? My point still stands that they have to find someone who can work on 20+ year old code.

    There is a lot of low hanging fruit to bash on Ywain and yet here we are arguing about problems that are in the distant past. The current problems facing Ywain will face a new server. You just don't realize it because you're stuck in the Mythic days. Play Ywain for a month and it'll be apparent what the actual problems are.
  • @Jorma You're going to have to explain to me how having more items generates less build diversity. This part of your argumentation I don't understand.

    If we take the example of the other place, there are less items and 99% of the templates are exactly the same (in concept, not in actual items becasue they are based on rogs). And fully optimal templates (a full Lifetap proccing MP rog armor suit for a soloer as an example) is totally unreachable to a casual player (costs hundreds of plats).

    I think itemization, as it is on Ywain right now, with BP crafting and everything, is probably the best system in the history of the game. Are items too powerful? Some item /uses are maybe a bit too strong, but they do bring build diveristy (loyalty cloaks and their unique uses as an example).
  • puter wrote: »
    @Jorma Must be a language barrier because you seem to misunderstand me. If a classic server is released by BS that can be easily adapted by a shard, then the official server will die. Hence my point that it has to be unique in more ways than patch setting. Ywain doesn't have this problem simply because there is taboo around ToA alone.
    Yes, it has to be unique.

    puter wrote: »
    Sounds to me like you're part of the problem based on what other pro-classic players want, even in this thread. Why do you need to do more solo when there should be a sufficient population to work with? This is a MMO, not a single player game after all.
    Being able to finish quests without having to find a group that needs that quest would be nice, Having a speed class on /stick to move around quicker would be nice.

    puter wrote: »
    Owning several houses when a server first launches is a dick move really.
    I do not see the problem with having several houses, when/if there are no more free lots additional housing zones can be added.

    puter wrote: »
    So you want tradeskills to level faster...that's against the classic way even for some on this very thread. BS should probably look to the ML9 boss on how to improve the crafting system so you don't have to pay $60/month to level faster.
    Against the classic way?
    I would not have a problem with paying for 4 accounts, it would be good for BS and EA as well..

    puter wrote: »
    You haven't really addressed what you don't like about Ywain other than you don't like it. It's really hard to address issues when you're vague. What about the expansions ruined the game?
    I have said why I think the expansions after SI ruined the game, can't you remember?
    Jorma wrote: »
    The expansion content, the way it was implemented, made many of the older items useless, they needed to remake many of the old items to make them competetive again in later patches. The uses, procs and stat caps available on certain items in ToA made them necessary to have in your template to be competetive which led to less variety. Just because you like the ML abilities and CL abilities doesn't mean everyone likes them. Some of the ML abilities is ok and can be put in the RA pool so players have to choose what they want and what they don't want, that should lead to a bit more variety. Some of the ML abilities should not be in the game at all in my opinion. I don't think having access to more abilities makes the game better. Choosing what you want, spending spec points to train them, and choosing what you don't feel suits your playstyle the best is more appealing to me.
    Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I have not explained what I feel was bad with ToA and later expansions.

    puter wrote: »
    Do you hate having to build templates and want something that caps all your stats/resists without issues?
    Having to completely remake your templates each expansion didn't add much to the gaming experience for me, but the most annoying part was the added must have items.

    puter wrote: »
    Do you hate having access to situational based abilities and just want one hotbar to manage?
    Only chars that I only used one hotbar on was buff bots.

    puter wrote: »
    Do you hate having to land positionals to maximize your dps and just want to /stick while letting the RNG gods decide the fate of the fight?
    Positionals was in the game before ToA was released, of course I used them when playing melee characters.

    puter wrote: »
    Most arguments I hear from players who haven't played in over a decade is ToA. The problems that came with ToA have long been corrected and therefore is a non-issue in modern DAoC. I've played through all variations of DAoC since release and honestly don't see the benefit beyond simplifying the game AND catering to nostalgia, which is fleeting.
    The problems that came with ToA is still in the game, Master Level Abilities, weapons that resist debuff their own damage type, must have /uses and /procs, stat caps, ToA stats, etc.

    puter wrote: »
    Why work for Broadsword when you could work on more popular/profitable projects? My point still stands that they have to find someone who can work on 20+ year old code.
    And this only regards the alternate ruleset server?

    puter wrote: »
    There is a lot of low hanging fruit to bash on Ywain and yet here we are arguing about problems that are in the distant past. The current problems facing Ywain will face a new server. You just don't realize it because you're stuck in the Mythic days. Play Ywain for a month and it'll be apparent what the actual problems are.
    The alternate ruleset server will face Ywains problems if it is made in Ywains image. I don't want to play on Ywain.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    @Jorma You're going to have to explain to me how having more items generates less build diversity. This part of your argumentation I don't understand.
    The must have items to be competitive.

    Shoke wrote: »
    If we take the example of the other place, there are less items and 99% of the templates are exactly the same (in concept, not in actual items becasue they are based on rogs). And fully optimal templates (a full Lifetap proccing MP rog armor suit for a soloer as an example) is totally unreachable to a casual player (costs hundreds of plats).
    I don't want BS to make the alternate ruleset server a copy of any freeshard.

    Shoke wrote: »
    I think itemization, as it is on Ywain right now, with BP crafting and everything, is probably the best system in the history of the game. Are items too powerful? Some item /uses are maybe a bit too strong, but they do bring build diveristy (loyalty cloaks and their unique uses as an example).
    I would prefer the SI itemization design.
  • @Jorma Must have /uses really isn't a thing anymore because multiple items fill common uses now (PD and AoM charges for instance). Stat caps and bonuses are on a number of items as well. You can't max everything out so build diversity is large and play style dependent. Even ROGs have a place. Templates in the SI days were virtually identical. That's not the case in modern DAoC. These are all moot points but you haven't played since 2013 so you wouldn't know what changed. I haven't had to retemp in years but I still adjust it depending on what I want out of it because there's no one size fits all temp.

    Why are procs debuffing for your own damage considered bad? Everyone is max buffed in modern DAoC. You'd hit like a wet noodle on some targets without debuffs whether it's via procs or spells. I'm not following your logic as to what's wrong with the game NOW. Maybe inform yourself by playing it or reading so we can have a productive conversation. We're looking through two different lenses right now and you're the one behind on the times here.
  • puter wrote: »
    @Jorma Must have /uses really isn't a thing anymore because multiple items fill common uses now (PD and AoM charges for instance). Stat caps and bonuses are on a number of items as well. You can't max everything out so build diversity is large and play style dependent. Even ROGs have a place. Templates in the SI days were virtually identical. That's not the case in modern DAoC. These are all moot points but you haven't played since 2013 so you wouldn't know what changed. I haven't had to retemp in years but I still adjust it depending on what I want out of it because there's no one size fits all temp.

    Why are procs debuffing for your own damage considered bad? Everyone is max buffed in modern DAoC. You'd hit like a wet noodle on some targets without debuffs whether it's via procs or spells. I'm not following your logic as to what's wrong with the game NOW. Maybe inform yourself by playing it or reading so we can have a productive conversation. We're looking through two different lenses right now and you're the one behind on the times here.
    What do you want on the alternate ruleset server, only being seasonal?
  • I'd like to see PvP brought back in some form. Maybe invasion of home realms by enemy realms. Something way different than what we've had before but doesn't disrupt what we have now. That's a tall order but could be really cool because the possibilities become endless when designing a seasonal server. You could envision this like the Diablo ladder system where non-ladder characters are hosted on Ywain and all ladder characters get transferred at the end of the ladder / season. I've played this MMO for nearly 20 years. I don't want the same ****. I want something new but with DAoC mechanics which is what makes this game unique in the MMO world. Nostalgia is great but doesn't last.
  • edited March 1 PM
    By what I am reading in here, I don't want no part of the "Classic Server" I don't want to grind lvling. It took me 3 months to lvl my first toon is 2001. If I had to do that again, I would not be playing. I like the fact that I can spend less than a week lvling a toon to 50 and temping them out to go RVR. The end game is PVP after all.

    But too those that do, enjoy it..
    Post edited by Minibard on
  • edited March 18 PM
    I had an idea regarding a new server. Now that I am back I was thinking... We know from multiple experiments that the novelty of this does wear off after some time as years pass and these servers find themselves in the situation where not only are there things and content lacking, but the same old power gaps open up between more casual players and the ones who spend immense time to get lots of RAs and +skills.

    We also know that many people who have spent years building up character have little desire dedicating time again to a crazy feat that took them thousands of hours to accomplish. There could be a solution for this, and we could also hit another bird with the same stone.

    What I would do would take some work but it could satisfy some of these issues.

    Copy the entire Ywain database to the new server and allow hyper old veterans returning to copy from the old servers. Keep reading though, it's not what you think this is! So you do this to allow people to have their characters, the ones people are really attached to and the names that can not be taken by others. They get the same old character, the same race/appearance/class, /played etc. Guilds will copy and have their legendary status remain, but only the name and statistics.

    But, they are level 1, they are naked, the vaults are empty, no money, tradeskills, it is fresh. However, some things they keep are their titles and title information statistics, and their realm points and realm rank, things they actually strived and spent a lot of time for. (its not what you think).

    I would like to see a somewhat level playing field so we would have progression in that there will be caps to realm skill points and +skills/weaponskill acquired by realm rank progressions for certain time periods, but not realm points or rank. An example of this could be:

    Upto Week 1: Cap of 3 realm skill points, +0 skills from realm rank
    Upto 1 month: Cap of 10 realm skill points, and +skills/WS (what would be gained from 2L0)
    Upto 2 months: Cap of 30 realm skill points, and +skills/WS (what would be gained from 4L0)
    Upto 3 months: Cap of 40 realm skill points, and +skills/WS (what would be gained from 5L0)
    Upto 6 months: Cap of 50 realm skill points, and +skills/WS (what would be gained from 6L0)
    Upto 1 years: Cap of 70 realm skill points, and +skills/WS (what would be 8L0)
    Upto 2 years: Cap of 90 realm skill points, and +skills/WS (what would be 10L0)
    Upto 3 years: Cap of 100 realm skill points and +skills/WS (what would be 11L0)
    Indefinite cap of 110 and +skills/WS (what would be 12L0)

    You never actually cap realm points or realm ranks, only the benefits that they give. You think you could write that kind of code?

    Why bother with all this? Well it makes sense that the people that have supported this game would like something to show for it on a fresh start server if possible. It is human nature really and people worked hard and spent a lot of time doing this. They don't want to lose that. This could be done in a way to make everyone happy. It also could narrow competition with other options and future fresh starts at other places as long as it is a good server that people enjoy. But we also want a level playing field for new characters and players coming to join us. This would hit 2 birds with one stone. Yes you could see a level 1 Vicomtessa, but there would be no real benefit for that player except for the fact that they have something to show off which is a near exact replica of their favorite character that may have existed since 2003, and they will feel like they are still playing their beloved character as it was an exact copy. People will have their favorite titles to show off, they will still have their character for the most part.

    The RAs and +RR skills will be capped in increments of time in order to follow a proper progression for the entire playerbase to keep not only copied characters on a level field, but to also keep those that spend a lot more time then a casual player on a level field when it comes to power and ability points. PvP powercreep is the biggest issue in Dark Age of Camelot, among all servers and rulesets but the progression and accomplishments is also the best out of any game out there with the realm rank system. I feel that there should never be any real benefit from going above realm rank 12, even when you've played 10000 hours for 10 years. You will be able to get the RR13 and RR14 titles, but all you will have are the titles to show for it and in 10 years time no one can ever gain more then 110 RA points. You'll still be powerful, and people will see your title which will mean a lot to your most dedicated players throughout the history of this game.

    So yes you will see a RR13 level one, you'll see Briton Dragon Knights, but they will only have 3 realm skill points and +0 for the first week after launch. They will gain no benefit from this except notoriety. The same goes for a group of new characters that powergame hard for the first 6 months. They will show their titles such as Unicorn Knight or better as they will gain these realm points to make this realm rank quickly but for the first 6 months they will be capped at less RAs and +skills as if they were actually rr6. Copied characters of higher RR will be at the current cap right away without killing a single player and this will mean many players coming out, returning or new and having to go through a process of rebuilding and releveling together with the community of this server, but it also means that we should make the progression caps pretty strict to keep a level playing field for newly created characters for a significant time in my opinion and that is why for the first 2 years no one should get the benefits above rank 10 other then title.

    As for other things I would love to see on this server, I'd like to see all playstyles to be relevant and rewarding in RvR. Relics should mean something, soloing and smallman should be fun. The PvE crowd should have content that brings decent reward. I'd also like to see a realm victory condition that would trigger a change in RvR rulesets such as from Old Frontiers to NF with Agramon, even to the current NNF in a cycle if possible, in order to keep things fresh as these different rulesets are unique and fun in their own kind of way. Old frontiers had it's issues, many of which can actually be fixed though. But cycling the environment with a victory condition is something I would love to see.

    There are some aspects that wouldn't be considered classic like but actually did make the game a lot more fun then it would have been without. These things are probably what would cause development of the server to take a long time, deciding what to keep that actually made the game more healthy. Examples would be some class style changes, abilities, etc but it could unfortunately cause some controversy but a strict classic 1.65 cutout has proven time and time again to not be sustainable in the long term. There will be many considerations that need to be made in the general standpoint of tank vs caster group, etc. I think that Time-To-Kill definitely needs to be like it used to be in the prime era of DAoC, it is insane how it is here now and is one of the main things that makes the game feel like something completely different now. If Heretics, Warlocks, and Bainshees are to not be usable, then players with these characters that they wish to copy could be given a class choice to use that is somewhat similar (Heretic could choose reaver, wizard. Warlocks could choose runemaster, shaman. Bainshee could pick eldritch, etc etc just throwing out quick thoughts...sorry guys but your class may need to be changed but there should be a few options I feel but also not be open to everything).

    In conclusion, giving people the option to keep their accomplishments while leveling the playing field and recognizing that a strict classic ruleset may not be the right answer are all things that could make a new server unique, successful, and really stand out among the other options out there. I've read about a progression or seasonal server ideas, but there is something about some of them that just doesn't sit right with me in a way that makes me feel that they could fail. Taking a break from the game and coming back to an entirely different game with obsolete gear is not something that entices people to stick around, but new content is nice and a reason to do things is great but there are problems with progression that ended up needing to be addressed here and we can see the result today, and I am sure it is due to a backend statistic of returning players that was evident to you guys. Having later expansion zones able to be useful in some kind of way without adding some of the things it brought to the game that drastically changed it could also be fun and acceptable for me but there definitely are many aspects that caused damage that must be recognized even if some pve content was enjoyable for some and that is why if they are to exist, they should provide something else more simple. ToA encounters dropping nice RoGs or other things as an example to keep the PvE crowd happy without bringing in certain grinds of necessity. No one should ever have to spend more then a certain time outside of RvR, this kills the rvr population. ToA and Laby were damaging to the game because when you had a server with 3000 people on it, the frontiers were still empty during some of these times in history as everyone was spending time somewhere else so that they could become competitive in the frontiers and that was a huge problem in my opinion with those expansions. Massive 200 man PvE battlegroup raids like the daily ML3 raids caused big issues with RvR population but things catering to smaller groups like a guild of several groups were less noticeable in that regard.
    Post edited by Lurandal on
  • I think every enemy player should display as " <Race> Invader. instead of their realm rank. To help encourage fighting. I know when I am RR 1, I wont fight a RR 12.
  • When is this happening. I think we need an update. I’m willing to Come back and try this along with many of my friends. But there is such little news on anything regarding this server it’s rough
  • Shadows wrote: »
    When is this happening. I think we need an update. I’m willing to Come back and try this along with many of my friends. But there is such little news on anything regarding this server it’s rough

    Same for me mate waiting on news forever it seems... would LOVE a BS update on anything related to this classic server
  • I would like to so a "Loyality" Bonus if you stay in one Realm, slight but noticable and scaling with duration (RP/BP/Coin) buff ?
  • Shadows wrote: »
    When is this happening. I think we need an update. I’m willing to Come back and try this along with many of my friends. But there is such little news on anything regarding this server it’s rough

    Same for me mate waiting on news forever it seems... would LOVE a BS update on anything related to this classic server

    Yeah they have been so damn bad with communication to the community about this server.
  • Stop realm timer omg !!! I just want to play another character and must await for nothing..
    It's an old game, why you let this absurdity ? pfff
  • This thread ..

    Let's explain some basic English vocabulary ...

    FACT : a thing that is known or proved to be true.

    THEORY : definition of this word varies depending on every day use or scientific use. in scientific use a theory is a hypothesis that has been tested and verified thoroughly and has proven correct every time. in daily use a theory can mean something like an idea or a hunch. most of the statements in this thread clearly fall under the daily use of the word theory.

    CONJECTURE : an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

    SPECULATION : a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

    HYPOTHESIS : a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

    OPINION : An opinion is a judgement, viewpoint, or statement that is not conclusive.

    WISHFUL THINKING : the imagining or discussion of a very unlikely future event or situation as if it were possible and might one day happen.

    DELUSION : A delusion is a fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.

    In this thread i see a lot of delusion, wishful thinking and opinion, some hypothesis, speculation and conjecture and almost no theory (in the scientific sense) or fact.

    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Nostalgia is one hell of a drug.
  • Did i just bury this thread with a single comment ?
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • This thread buried itself before you @Muylae.
  • Note I just started evaluating game trying to decide if I want to come back. I do miss good RVR. However there are some really bad problems at this point they really SHOULD Address if they want players to reconsider this game.

    1 - UI Scaling in the game. I can't play this game if they don't fix that.
    2 - Beyond this, maybe some better targeting UI hints and style chain hints in the UI
  • The bird server is killing its pop off with stupid changes. Time for the official server.
  • edited April 13 PM
    Dreadone wrote: »
    The bird server is killing its pop off with stupid changes. Time for the official server.

    Yeah there is a trend forming where the result is that there is no good classic experience any longer on any currently existing ruleset. Population magnitude is no longer greater then 5x. This has opened a window of opportunity, that may be short lived, which is equal to $$$ money money money along with population! hah, but will it be realized by the leaders or will it be someone else who can create something on their HP compact pro in their basement once again?

    It is all amusing to me. We shall see :P
    Post edited by Lurandal on
  • edited April 14 PM
    Note I just started evaluating game trying to decide if I want to come back. I do miss good RVR. However there are some really bad problems at this point they really SHOULD Address if they want players to reconsider this game.

    1 - UI Scaling in the game. I can't play this game if they don't fix that.
    2 - Beyond this, maybe some better targeting UI hints and style chain hints in the UI

    UI scaling ....

    we don't longer play in 640 * 480 or 800 * 600
    .


    UI scaling is nesc ..

    broadsword are you listening ?????

    i don't even mean scaling icons..... i mean to have an option to have double size icons and buff icons on the UI

    at 1980*1080 it's borderline
    at 2560*1400 the icons are just a joke
    at higher it's downright ... unviewable.

    doubling the icon size from what we have currently is ... essential as an option. i'm not talking about having really scalable icons, i'm talking about having the current and double size of what is now as an option..
    Post edited by Muylae on
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • edited April 14 PM
    toa but with the ability to purchase artifact credit + mls with bps

    some dragon ish patch

    + the quick leveling we have in the bgs.
    Post edited by Yems on
  • Dreadone wrote: »
    The bird server is killing its pop off with stupid changes. Time for the official server.

    time is on our side. all the social media posts have people asking for a classic ruleset live server. all they need to do is make a paid beta test like other games have done in the past which will help them gauge interest and get a feel for the customer demand for the new server(s). my bet is that there are many people ready to come back to daoc classic. bird server proved it but they've got no monetary incentives to keep their population happy so they will make bad decisions and ruin the experience because they've got no skin in the game. if that server dies then they just go back to their day jobs so they ultimately do whatever they want with zero regard for how it affects the community or their players.

    bird server is showing us the path towards success. do the opposite of what they did, stick to classic rule set and you will retain the core fanbase of that ruleset. only move forward with changes when absolutely necessary. other games have had a great amount of success from bringing back classic rule set servers. there's literally zero reason for classic daoc live to not exist right now. demand is there, customers are willing to pay and the community has been demanding it for several years.
  • goguen wrote: »
    Dreadone wrote: »
    The bird server is killing its pop off with stupid changes. Time for the official server.

    time is on our side. all the social media posts have people asking for a classic ruleset live server. all they need to do is make a paid beta test like other games have done in the past which will help them gauge interest and get a feel for the customer demand for the new server(s). my bet is that there are many people ready to come back to daoc classic. bird server proved it but they've got no monetary incentives to keep their population happy so they will make bad decisions and ruin the experience because they've got no skin in the game. if that server dies then they just go back to their day jobs so they ultimately do whatever they want with zero regard for how it affects the community or their players.

    bird server is showing us the path towards success. do the opposite of what they did, stick to classic rule set and you will retain the core fanbase of that ruleset. only move forward with changes when absolutely necessary. other games have had a great amount of success from bringing back classic rule set servers. there's literally zero reason for classic daoc live to not exist right now. demand is there, customers are willing to pay and the community has been demanding it for several years.

    "...other games have had a great amount of success from bringing back classic rule set servers. there's literally zero reason for classic daoc live to not exist right now. demand is there, customers are willing to pay and the community has been demanding it for several years."

    A prime example to back up that statement is WoW with their WOTLK expansion - which would be the equivalent of DAOC with SI and NF. Even though currently Retail WoW does not have a WOTLK ruleset server, there are several freeshard WoW servers that DO have that ruleset, and are quite successful, sporting as much as 5000+ players on their own servers during most of the day/night. One site which has 3 versions of WOTLK servers, one of their servers in particular is so full, that most of the day for USA time zones, there is a que that is near 2 hours long!

    Question is, why shouldn't Broadsword re-tap back into the DAOC classic community and get that revenue stream coming back in? With today's technology, and relatively low resource hosting requirements, meaning that it is cheaper now compared to how expensive was 20 years ago, this should be a no-brainer. It only costs a few hundred dollars a month for hosting. How many full time GM's does Broadsword want to hire to maintain this server? How about hiring some volunteer GM's that can do most tasks exception of gaining access to server controls. If something happens that the server needs a reset, then volunteer GM gets a hold of paid GM for them to make the call to do so...there are ways around these problems, and the freeshard community has proven it can be done cheaply.

    If Broadsword were to implement some of the freeshard strategies on running a classic ruleset alternate server, I do believe the powers-that-be would be quite surprised at their margin of profit, and then will be kicking themselves in their own butts for not realizing and doing it years sooner.

    "And that's the Bottom line. Cause Stone Cold Griff said so!".
  • edited April 22 PM
    The margin of profit will be small for DAoC. It's nowhere near as popular as WoW. Even FFXI has a larger subscriber base than DAoC and they were released within a year of each other. You speak of multiple shards that host thousands of players. DAoC has only been able to populate one...While I think there will be a short term benefit with the release of a classic server, I don't see it as the right direction to keep the game going for multiple years to come.
    Post edited by puter on
  • goguen wrote: »
    Dreadone wrote: »
    The bird server is killing its pop off with stupid changes. Time for the official server.

    time is on our side. all the social media posts have people asking for a classic ruleset live server. all they need to do is make a paid beta test like other games have done in the past which will help them gauge interest and get a feel for the customer demand for the new server(s). my bet is that there are many people ready to come back to daoc classic. bird server proved it but they've got no monetary incentives to keep their population happy so they will make bad decisions and ruin the experience because they've got no skin in the game. if that server dies then they just go back to their day jobs so they ultimately do whatever they want with zero regard for how it affects the community or their players.

    bird server is showing us the path towards success. do the opposite of what they did, stick to classic rule set and you will retain the core fanbase of that ruleset. only move forward with changes when absolutely necessary. other games have had a great amount of success from bringing back classic rule set servers. there's literally zero reason for classic daoc live to not exist right now. demand is there, customers are willing to pay and the community has been demanding it for several years.
    I agree, I think a live classic ruleset server would see many returning subscribers and I believe many of us would stay for a long time. I also think it would benefit Ywain in the long run, some of the returning/new players would want to try the Ywain ruleset and some of them would probably like Ywain.
  • puter wrote: »
    You speak of multiple shards that host thousands of players. DAoC has only been able to populate one...

    maybe you are new to the game or this is a typo, but daoc used to have 250,000 subscribers and multiple servers in USA and europe. France alone had like 4 servers I think.

    not all of those 250k will come back but there is no doubt what the majority of people who ever played this game want ... they want vanilla daoc, OF. Population on Ywain is so low now that i dont see what broadsword have to lose by going for a full on classic server which will bring back 1000s of players.
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