Hmm, Alb can make good tank groups. Alb wins the interrupt war, and they changed the sorc over the years to help him be more viable in tank groups, mainly by adding the damage redux buff in the Mind line (add high physical defense + conversion in a template + sorc r5) and a sorc is tanky as hell.
Theurgists are OP, whatever the setting.
So you can def run cleric friar sorc theurg and 4 tanks. You have perma celerity on the paladin, mercs are OP, PW necros hit hard, arms hit hard, I mean you got option.
You can also run 3 tanks + af debuff in a 3/3.
Replace a tank for a tic, you now have magic immunity + backline peels + extra heals.
Albs has all the tools.
How does a friar "not stack well in these groups"?
Is it so much different than having your cleric/healer stun for you? Not really.
Most PUG groups and even sometimes the "set" groups in BG's / keep defenses won't even take the time to setup an MA, let alone have their support stun for them. Then they will come on the forums asking for a drastic change to fit their playstyle. Players don't want to get better, they want to be spoonfed RP's. I bet there's not many on the forum who are even aware of the %t assist macro
Post edited by Dale_Perf on
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Well, but to be honest, there are 3 hib classes who can stun you, and 1 alb/mid class.
So, a typical keep fight...lets say hib/alb....then albs have maybe 2 clerics who can stun....but on the other side we have about 10 hib casters who can stun you. .....whats better?
9 second castable stun on a list caster has and always will be bad game design. No one likes to be stunned and killed with no way of responding, which is why it was nerfed on hybrids. I think a nerf to the duration of the stun is long overdue to put it in line with current slam duration. That and most hib casters get root now so it’s a moot point.
Permanent stun on a caster has and always will be a bad game design. No one likes to be stunned without being able to purge and no way of responding. (see Theurgist).
The fact that you feel minstrels should get heals, and don't think that sorcs or friars compare well to other classes is also very misguided. These classes have features that distinguish them from other classes and make them useful in their own way. I could just as easily say that Healer's are at a disadvantage because they don't have a lifetap. Do you think that Healer's should get a lifetap?
It seems you are advocating all the realms being exactly the same. The differences in the realms are what make RvR unique and interesting.
I am honestly questioning whether you actually play RvR? Do you even play this game?
Edit: and can someone please confirm whether Hib stun has been in the game forever? I played just after beta and I always remember hib casters having stun .... Fairly sure this person is lying.
i kinda just want to see hybrid classes have a better chance of landing attacks, its a noticeable problem, especially at lower RR. with the amount of heal procs and ablatives built into every template now missing attacks on classes that already do lower damage due to thier damage table is kinda sucky.
i'm not asking for a weapon skill upgrade them for or damage bump per hit (thou damage over the course of a fight would go up if you landed more hits), more like look at the attacks that a 0-5%(or even a negative) to hit chance and maybe bumping them up some. mainly warden anytime, friar holy staff and staff mauler wild swing.
Brut, you ask for more utility and for some help for melee groups but you never suggest anything that could be viable. Why not, instead of constantly complaining, suggest something to pitch to BS?
Reavers need 2-handed morning star... worthless class other than as a soloer otherwise
When hib was the underpopulated realm Stun helped then defend and attack, it is a huge problem now they have numbers in keep sieges. I have said it before and I will say it again.
Something NEEDS to be done to stop Hibs pinning Mids/Albs in keeps without ANY chance to even defend against them without atleast 60% of the numbers.
Now catapults dont even interrupt we cant even hit the healers on the out side long enough to kill the 6+ heavy tanks running around in the courtyard so not only can we not even get on the walls we cant kill the tanks inside the keep.
Mids wont even defend and albs have like 8-16 people defending against 60 Hibs because its NO FUN.
Hib stun can be interrupted in open field and is not a problem so much. It is the keep sieges where casauls (NEW PEOPLE) play and if its no fun then they wont stay.
you shouldnt be able to defend a keep with < 50% regardless what realm you are on. Its a population issue not a game issue.
If Hib is so OP, then why when people do drafts, its usually Mid and Hib? And if Alb is chosen, certain classes are not allowed? Seems to me Alb is OP.
Well, but to be honest, there are 3 hib classes who can stun you, and 1 alb/mid class.
So, a typical keep fight...lets say hib/alb....then albs have maybe 2 clerics who can stun....but on the other side we have about 10 hib casters who can stun you. .....whats better?
not to mention that clerics need to be healing and rezzing and clearing disease, etc... - it's a juggling act
I have suggested many viable suggestions but no one wants to listen just done with bothering anymore any time any improvements to alb are mentioned the vested interests on here shoot em down.
Reducing minstrel aoe mez Time tics having A decent group heal and the reaver getting a similar damage conversion buff similar to hib and mid were all proposed along with the Armsman thread all with viable and sensible suggestions nothing that is overpowered but because its alb it’s shot down with the same old you ain’t got a clue about game mechanics well you know what something is very wrong with alb when I can run a pac healer on mid in a group of 5 an aug a skald and one zerker and a sb ffs and take down alb 8 mans with easy just fricking embarassing and the same could apply to hib in fact hib is even easier
You wanna keep burying your head in the sand and ignoring what’s going on fine enjoy your 2 realm game.
I have suggested many viable suggestions but no one wants to listen just done with bothering anymore any time any improvements to alb are mentioned the vested interests on here shoot em down.
Reducing minstrel aoe mez Time tics having A decent group heal and the reaver getting a similar damage conversion buff similar to hib and mid were all proposed along with the Armsman thread all with viable and sensible suggestions nothing that is overpowered but because its alb it’s shot down with the same old you ain’t got a clue about game mechanics well you know what something is very wrong with alb when I can run a pac healer on mid in a group of 5 an aug a skald and one zerker and a sb ffs and take down alb 8 mans with easy just fricking embarassing
You wanna keep burying your head in the sand and ignoring what’s going on fine enjoy your 2 realm game.
You're not taking down 8mans with 5. You're taking out a bunch of casuals likely farming Doppels. The game is balanced around players actually being able to play their classes which only a small fraction of the remaining population can do. This is the irony behind the choices BS has made in terms of class balance. They catered to players that don't play here anymore. Honestly, I'm surprised how many clueless players are left when there's an alternative better suited for their skill level. But, as several people have pointed out before, bad players will always get destroyed by better players regardless of the abilities available. This is why zergs mostly consist of terrible players and why a PUG of randoms can't defend a keep like a competent 8 man. Ywain is a low population server dominated by players who don't know how to play their classes. No patch will change the mindset of these folks including yourself.
If Hib is so OP, then why when people do drafts, its usually Mid and Hib? And if Alb is chosen, certain classes are not allowed? Seems to me Alb is OP.
Probably because those are set up for fights with even numbers. I don't think it's the classes that are OP but the fact there are atleast 3 hib caster DPS that can stun for themselves and when Hibs outnumber the other realms it seems there is and endless amount of stuns being thrown around during siege fights.
If Hib is so OP, then why when people do drafts, its usually Mid and Hib? And if Alb is chosen, certain classes are not allowed? Seems to me Alb is OP.
Nice try. 8v8's are a whole different game as are /bowtowns and set up 1v1s. There is no element of surprise or change. You know what you are fighting and what to expect. They are held in open fields so los is not an issue. The issue that everyone sees other than the "I'm going to play dumb" Hib lifers is stun/nuke in a siege situation when Hibs are defending or attacking. It's not rocket science but some of you just refuse to admit that it is a HUGE advantage. Almost every Hib/Mid will say Thurgs are the most OP class they fight against but please tell me how effective are they in keep defense or siege in general? I'll tell you, they are useless as they need open field fights to do their job because of how pets work with pathing. At least Ani bombers can track properly, Thurgy pets do nothing.
Just tested Archery - so at below 45 Archery damage is reduced 25% but archers get a 25% damage buff for 30 minutes. What is the intent of broadsword with this? Are you trying to open up the options for more specs?
I took it as an overall Archer nerf which will in turn effects Rangers + Melee spec'd Hunters worse then a Scout (typical) specs.
It's a very slippery slope tbh, what's next all Sins take a -25% melee dps nerf
let's stop trying to drag this pointless argument on any longer. My ranger in Molvik will 2 shot casters on the regs... Once this change is implemented I guarantee everyone will forget about trying to argue against it. Archers will learn to cast 1 more buff when they log in, yeesh
Bruh your Archer in Molvik please stop lolllllllllllllllllllllll
It's an Archer "nerf", but it will for sure impact Rangers and Melee Hunters the most.
you shouldnt be able to defend a keep with < 50% regardless what realm you are on. Its a population issue not a game issue.
You know I am not saying that.
I am saying there is no point even trying against Hibs if they have >50% numbers. Hib stun locks down entire defense/attack and it is nota problem Mid vs Albs or Albs vs Mids.
@John_Broadsword How about Necro's get a base AF shield like all other casters? Seeing as free MoC removed.
you shouldnt be able to defend a keep with < 50% regardless what realm you are on. Its a population issue not a game issue.
You know I am not saying that.
I am saying there is no point even trying against Hibs if they have >50% numbers. Hib stun locks down entire defense/attack and it is nota problem Mid vs Albs or Albs vs Mids.
@John_Broadsword How about Necro's get a base AF shield like all other casters? Seeing as free MoC removed.
Umm nope. Base AF and then they go into Melee form and all of a sudden have a 1300 AF and lives are ruined. It's a pretty fair tradeoff with Necros to be fair. They are squishy unless timers are up and they are powerhogs.
Umm nope. Base AF and then they go into Melee form and all of a sudden have a 1300 AF and lives are ruined. It's a pretty fair tradeoff with Necros to be fair. They are squishy unless timers are up and they are powerhogs.
Base AF buffs from a bot are better than Sup pot, I was thinking it would be fine even if it was the same value of a base bot buff. Dont get me wrong, It was alot worse when I needed a bot account just to buff my necro and pet
They already kill spec AF when you enter tank form, they could cancel base buffs aswell.
If Hib is so OP, then why when people do drafts, its usually Mid and Hib? And if Alb is chosen, certain classes are not allowed? Seems to me Alb is OP.
Nice try. 8v8's are a whole different game as are /bowtowns and set up 1v1s. There is no element of surprise or change. You know what you are fighting and what to expect. They are held in open fields so los is not an issue. The issue that everyone sees other than the "I'm going to play dumb" Hib lifers is stun/nuke in a siege situation when Hibs are defending or attacking. It's not rocket science but some of you just refuse to admit that it is a HUGE advantage. Almost every Hib/Mid will say Thurgs are the most OP class they fight against but please tell me how effective are they in keep defense or siege in general? I'll tell you, they are useless as they need open field fights to do their job because of how pets work with pathing. At least Ani bombers can track properly, Thurgy pets do nothing.
I agree with you on the Theurg comment. They really do nothing for Alb in the siege context. And I will be the first to admit that baseline stun on Hib casters is a huge advantage. But I think the advantage is very contextual. And I feel it's fair to point that out--not necessarily directing the rest of this to you, Bumbles.
No doubt HIb-casted baseline stun can be a huge advantage in keep fights--especially when defending the walls of keeps where the defenders have line of sight. You give me one or two assisters, and that target is almost assuredly dead. It can also be a huge a huge advantage when attacking a keep, especially in the inner section of a keep where again there is line of sight protection.
However, it does have its limitations as well. Attacking against Albs can be quite difficult. All Hib baseline stuns are 1,500 range. Most every Alb group runs a Sorc, which has 1,850 AOE mez and 1,850 AOE root. These are devastating interrupters. I do realize that Hib has counters, such as Menty amenesia and NS (both over 2,000), Bainshee focus NS (over 2,000), and Animist 1,850 AOE root. But it is extremely difficult to cast a stun at 1,500 on Alb defenders unless Alb is extremely underpopulated in a fight. Mid is less difficult for Hib casters, but the Thane 1,650 (I think) range on AOE hammers can make things more difficult.
Also, stun does virtually nothing when holding the banister in a keep push (most tanks have high Det or Stoicism or both and many can charge). Same thing for Lord room holds. It's all about numbers.
I think we can agree each realm has its advantages. I will surely concede Hib baseline stun can be overpowered and is an advantage. But it is not a guaranteed win. It is situational and is offset and countered by other factors. And I think it's disingenuous not to recognize that and deem it the reason why Hib can take or defend a keep.
Most often, it's all about numbers and skill and leadership.
If Hib is so OP, then why when people do drafts, its usually Mid and Hib? And if Alb is chosen, certain classes are not allowed? Seems to me Alb is OP.
Nice try. 8v8's are a whole different game as are /bowtowns and set up 1v1s. There is no element of surprise or change. You know what you are fighting and what to expect. They are held in open fields so los is not an issue. The issue that everyone sees other than the "I'm going to play dumb" Hib lifers is stun/nuke in a siege situation when Hibs are defending or attacking. It's not rocket science but some of you just refuse to admit that it is a HUGE advantage. Almost every Hib/Mid will say Thurgs are the most OP class they fight against but please tell me how effective are they in keep defense or siege in general? I'll tell you, they are useless as they need open field fights to do their job because of how pets work with pathing. At least Ani bombers can track properly, Thurgy pets do nothing.
I agree with you on the Theurg comment. They really do nothing for Alb in the siege context. And I will be the first to admit that baseline stun on Hib casters is a huge advantage. But I think the advantage is very contextual. And I feel it's fair to point that out--not necessarily directing the rest of this to you, Bumbles.
No doubt HIb-casted baseline stun can be a huge advantage in keep fights--especially when defending the walls of keeps where the defenders have line of sight. You give me one or two assisters, and that target is almost assuredly dead. It can also be a huge a huge advantage when attacking a keep, especially in the inner section of a keep where again there is line of sight protection.
However, it does have its limitations as well. Attacking against Albs can be quite difficult. All Hib baseline stuns are 1,500 range. Most every Alb group runs a Sorc, which has 1,850 AOE mez and 1,850 AOE root. These are devastating interrupters. I do realize that Hib has counters, such as Menty amenesia and NS (both over 2,000), Bainshee focus NS (over 2,000), and Animist 1,850 AOE root. But it is extremely difficult to cast a stun at 1,500 on Alb defenders unless Alb is extremely underpopulated in a fight. Mid is less difficult for Hib casters, but the Thane 1,650 (I think) range on AOE hammers can make things more difficult.
Also, stun does virtually nothing when holding the banister in a keep push (most tanks have high Det or Stoicism or both and many can charge). Same thing for Lord room holds. It's all about numbers.
I think we can agree each realm has its advantages. I will surely concede Hib baseline stun can be overpowered and is an advantage. But it is not a guaranteed win. It is situational and is offset and countered by other factors. And I think it's disingenuous not to recognize that and deem it the reason why Hib can take or defend a keep.
Most often, it's all about numbers and skill and leadership.
Agree 100%. I think these issues are brought up and based around Hero during the EU time frame. That is when the Stun/nuke is glaring as both Albs/Mids are fighting 3x the numbers on a good day. In normal US prime-time fights for the most part it's a non-factor as numbers and in turn interrupts even things out.
Well, but to be honest, there are 3 hib classes who can stun you, and 1 alb/mid class.
So, a typical keep fight...lets say hib/alb....then albs have maybe 2 clerics who can stun....but on the other side we have about 10 hib casters who can stun you. .....whats better?
this
hib has 3 casters who can stun and nuke and one of them can also do resist debuffs for all 3 of them. albs and mids have nothing like that.
i sometimes feel like defending a keep on mid is like hibs shooting fish in a barrel of whatever comes within line of sight. having all the hibs casters beeing able to stun and then assist is not like having a healer stun and then having casters taking a shot at that target, it's just not the same.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
When hib was the underpopulated realm Stun helped then defend and attack, it is a huge problem now they have numbers in keep sieges. I have said it before and I will say it again.
Something NEEDS to be done to stop Hibs pinning Mids/Albs in keeps without ANY chance to even defend against them without atleast 60% of the numbers.
Now catapults dont even interrupt we cant even hit the healers on the out side long enough to kill the 6+ heavy tanks running around in the courtyard so not only can we not even get on the walls we cant kill the tanks inside the keep.
Mids wont even defend and albs have like 8-16 people defending against 60 Hibs because its NO FUN.
Hib stun can be interrupted in open field and is not a problem so much. It is the keep sieges where casauls (NEW PEOPLE) play and if its no fun then they wont stay.
you shouldnt be able to defend a keep with < 50% regardless what realm you are on. Its a population issue not a game issue.
hib has always been better at competing with inferior numbers. seems the game was balanced around that. but now hib is not the mandatory low numbers realm. but they still seem to have advantages build in to compensate for having lower numbers which doesn't reflect the current age.
the 9 second stun on multiple casters in one realm is just wrong.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Agreed. I will add that I was wondering why hib zerg has been so muted over the past week and was just told that the leaders are trying to keep RP's down and not take relics so that broadsword doesn't think that they are OP. They really want the bain body debuff. I don't think I've ever in the last year seen such little hib action in weekly stats.
On the stun front. If you compare RC RM to void eld (hib apologists will say "but who plays void eld, seriously)- that's the point, it's the worst hib caster but it's still better than RC RM. If your argument is "but the debuff" you could also compare RC rm to mana chanter and mana chanter wins hands down.
I propose giving void elds a spec 209 cold dd at 49 void, scrapping the bain body debuff (seriously just run a void eld if you want it. Making void eld stronger makes running a bain a more viable option, and bains alrady have the strongest dd in game and better utility than most alb/mid casters), scrapping the proposed RC RM 10% energy dd debuff, and giving them a spec line 9 sec stun at 49 RC instead.
I think the main reason no one runs a Void Eld for a Body debuff train is because the debuffer can't assist on the train directly. This is the same reason no one runs a Heat or Cold train on Alb. You're sacrificing burst damage and utility in both cases. That doesn't legitimatize the Bainshee debuff with its high delve DD though. Considering Broadsword silence on this topic, much like the PBAOE changes, this will probably go Live. Be prepared for the Xuu crew to insta nuke y'all down after the patch.
Bain body debuff is a bad idea, everybody agrees. Not sure about the conspiracy theory you are talking about, woukd be dumb.
However, considering BS takes about 6 months to react and fix their bad ideas, there is a good chance they actually go through with the bain buff and fix it after christmas.
Bain body debuff is a bad idea, everybody agrees. Not sure about the conspiracy theory you are talking about, woukd be dumb.
However, considering BS takes about 6 months to react and fix their bad ideas, there is a good chance they actually go through with the bain buff and fix it after christmas.
You forgot to say they will first defend their decision and claim we just don't understand what they are trying to do before fixing anything.
I think the main reason no one runs a Void Eld for a Body debuff train is because the debuffer can't assist on the train directly. This is the same reason no one runs a Heat or Cold train on Alb.
We probably agree that min/max playerbase wants to run the most efficient setup (unless they want a challenge) and the casual base cares less about this but still cares about it (BG players mostly). One thing I have loved about this game for a very long time is that you can't have it all and you have to make choices. That's why I'd support a specline DD for void but not a body debuff for bains.
I think specline stuns on RC RM, or BA BD, or Ice Theug would be fine as the weakest spec line. I don't know we need to be making the strong stronger, however.
Here's a crazy idea: stop making new pointless balance changes. Spells/abilities should need little more than adjusting at this point, **** clearly doesn't have the capability to adjust new balance changes in large patches in a decent amount of time.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
This thread has been totally derailed with the stun nuke nuke bitch fest.
The main issue with this patch is that it’s not correcting faults that have sprung up with other patches that have been implemented by broadsword.
I repeat I do not want to see any realm nerfed and I agree I can see how hibs are very afraid that stun nuke nuke will be taken away in its present form.
And I don’t doubt that’s why the hib Zerg isn’t running this week the hibs have always been very clever at propaganda sadly albs don’t fight there corner.
I totally agree that hib have always been compensated for lack of numbers but that’s changed we need a rebalance hib is the dominant realm now it’s the starter realm.
You can make good groups on alb that’s not in question.
The main issue is the utility on alb that just isn’t there for a low population.
Updating housing gving the earth wiz a fire debuff and nerfing necros isn’t going to affect the fundamental problems on alb.
No one is asking for minstrels to get heals
What would make a difference is reducing the minstrel aoe mez cast time to 2.5 or 3 not a massive change.
But it allows minis to lead groups more easily and reduces the need for a sorc.
Giving tics a decent group heal removing St from tics and giving it to Pallys.
Finally giving the reaver a damage conversion buff similar to Both mid and hib.
I’ve given up on Armsman getting any love.
Now please tell me why any of this is bad for the game.
State your problems with any of these ideas and I will counter.
And @puter and @shoke please state who your in game toons are and what realm you play so I can see what great 8 man toons you play then I
might know who is bitching about me and then maybe I might respect your opinion.
@Brut I suppose you can use daocutils and check my name. I'm not hiding.
I didn't bitch at you, I only said that for every reasonable proposal you made (reducing Minstrel ae mezz cast speed) you made some wild unrealistic proposal (giving Minstrels dual wield), which dillutes and overshadow the more reasonable things you mention.
And to answer/reply to the points you make.
Heretics : main issues with tics are that, on paper, they are great. However, I've only seen 2 good tics in the last 4 years, and that was Gaven and Yama (Flik here). The funny thing is that they played them both completely differently.
It's the most obvious example of a class with a million abilities that have just been slapped on the class over the years to "buff it" because it was underplayed.
The main issues with heretics is that they are on the heat train, and they get shut down by pets easily. They have insane RAs, insane dps, insane tankyness, and they still suck in 99% of the playerbase hands.
Heretics need either to be left alone, or to be swapped to the body train. But putting them on the body train, with all the abilities that they have, would probably be way way OP.
Paladin : giving them ST would be like giving st to the tic, just another ability slapped on a class to "buff it" while it won't have any real benefit. However, Pin should 100% be removed from reavers and given to paladins. It would even out the groups where champs and valks have pin and are good in groups (valk being way better than a champ since the nerfs).
I don't think trying to buff reavers to make them group friendly is a good idea, it'll just unbalance reavers in solo/small.
Giving heat debuffs to wizards was a good idea, it now allows you to have a heat train with more than 2 casters on it. It probably won't pick up because ppl like them fire wizards, but you could have a wiz and 2x tic group and probably kill alot of ppl.
The bainshee body debuff is again an example of trying to buff a class that is underplayed because 99% of the game pop doesn't know wtf to do with them, or all they do is go PW and pulse bomb in keeps. Bainshees are great, but they suffer from being on the "wrong" train. So you have to build a group specifically to include them, which just doesn't exist in this casual zerging era of daoc.
And for the record, that patch is 100% missing the mark on most of what the playerbase has been bitching about. They left OP classes untouched (giving crescendo to necros almost feels like they buffed them), they are making the mount system incredibly complicated to set them up for the implementation of more cash shop purchases, they are changing house skins (which nobody asked for but they had an artist picking his nose doing nothing), and they are giving out randoms small class buffs left and right, that have no significant effect on anything.
At the same time, they are not touching the real problems of the game, that are that zerging is the only playstyle, that solo is dead, smallman has been dead for a while now, that 8 man only exists to sidecar zergs or do drafts, that Hero is still ruining Euro prime.
@Brut Necro needed a nerf and still does IMO, but whatever there...
I REALLY think Reavers need a 2h option or something. They at least need to be looked at. very powerful 1v1 but near worthless in a group. To this day I hate how they nerfed all their DD spells to different damage types, goes against all logic of class lore being spirit damage and doing cold and body damage wtf @Broadsword.
Tics are so beefy. trying to kill a tic in melee with a pally in group is laughable, but buffing their group heal SLIGHTLY might not hurt anything there but idk
Give armsmen, and all heavies for that matter, a bonus for 2handed damage (maybe?).
Overall this patch just shows laziness on their end
And you know what BS shoukd do if they were smart? They'd focus all their energy on making sure 8 manning is their priority and making sure playstyle thrives.
8 man is the most difficult playstyle to do on a consistent basis, not because it takes more skills, but because it is the least convenient.
People zerg because it's easy. You join the bg, get in a group, and just have fun. Nobody expects you to do anything specific, you don't have to join a guild, be on a specific times, etc. You log on, you play, you log out.
Solo is also convenient. It's much more difficult to be good and successful at, but it's easier because you are the only one you need to manage. You go afk when you need to, you log on and off when you want to, it's easy.
8 man is difficult because you need someone that will commit to building the groups every night. You need 8 reliable players that will log on at the right time, and will log off at the same time. They need to accept to play specific roles and classes. They need to spec a certain way. They need to execute specific things. It's really difficult to find enough players that you actually enjoy playing with that fill these criterias.
I bet that if you promoted 8 man and making it extremely profitable to play, solo would thrive aswell. Smallmans would actually look to fill instead of feeding on soloers.
Zergers would still zerg, maybe a couple groups lookong to get more RPs woukd detach and go roam.
That's why the other place is so successful. Their whole RvR dynamic is based on 8v8. The class balance choices are based on 8v8. Their rvr tasks are designed so that 8v8 gives the best RP/hour. You get free RPs for running 8v8. And guess what, people still smallman, they still solo and they definitely still zerg.
While I agree with alot I don't think there focus should be on 8 man's it should be on all play styles.
8 man is as you described is the most difficult to maintain than when you consider you will have the 1-2 sets that been running the whole time feasting on everything else til they run it off server again.
If you want 8 mans to thrive you have to realise you cannot go apeshit hunting down and harassing the groups that know they aren't good enough to compete against you, and let them get better fighting the other groups which you know the sets won't do.
I say the same thing to solos I talk to killing the quester or low RR once and let them pass. so they can find more even fights and actually learn to enjoy the play style works out better than ripping them as many times as possible before they log.
@Shoke They tried that with Kuji in terms of class balance. You're right though that they should be looking at what works and what doesn't in terms of promoting different play styles since they have a perfect set of examples evolving in front of their face. Right now, there's little to no appeal to play any other way than zerging or ganking.
@Brut I led the guild group Casting Couch / Fifty Shades of Slay back in 2019. We only played during NA prime so you probably only saw us when you were stuck to Rescu. We were by no means great but no smally took us out. The only group that beat us consistently was Xuu's crew. Traded wins against Creaper's crew quite often though which made for fun fights. I stopped playing consistently due to RL time conflicts and my growing disdain for BS. Some of us moved on and some of us still play here. I only dabble here and there on Ywain but I don't think I'll ever commit time like I did then to this server ever again.
@puter I wasn't around for the Kuji patches. But from what I understood it was mainly class changes and balance changes (like changing sins so they could 8 man), rather than RvR dynamic changes.
Like you said, BS has an example in their face that made 8v8 their balancing reference point. They do take action on other styles, but 8v8 has been their focus.
What would make a difference is reducing the minstrel aoe mez cast time to 2.5 or 3 not a massive change.
But it allows minis to lead groups more easily and reduces the need for a sorc.
Giving tics a decent group heal removing St from tics and giving it to Pallys.
Finally giving the reaver a damage conversion buff similar to Both mid and hib.
I'd say for all 3 points that just because one class is more desirable doesn't mean we need to buff something else for group play.
Minstrels getting mez timer reduced: I'll give you that minstrels getting a low cast speed mez would make sense except that 1) they already get an instant pbaoe mez and 2) they run in pretty much every stealth group on alb. Also minstrel can cast mez will sprinting, away from you (if they are good). It requires no /face. Also remember that sorcs were recently buffed, significantly, to make alb more on par with hib/mid in terms of survivability of the primary cc class.
Giving Tics a decent group heal and giving pallys ST. Tics can be a small race and they have a lot of spec points and as such can spec for insane damage redux through shield, extremely high abs and extremely high AF. As list casters they also get acuity bonuses and can easily cap dex stat. At the same time they are able to do impressive damage and interrupt, clear pets, and use probably the single most powerful rr5 in the game. I was heavily against giving pallies group heals (I know wardens have them) but at least wardens have to give up stuff to get group heals. Giving pallies group heals in their chants line would have been like giving wardens group and ST heals in their buff line. Meanwhile mids still don't have access to a heal class with more than 1.0 spec points to spend. I would argue valks need an updated mending line to include spec group heals before we even talk about tics, and I don't think valks need a buff to mending line.
Damage conversion for reavers: The issue is they are very strong solo. They can also use damage conversion proc weapons. Also clerics get damage conversion. I'm curious what mid/hib classes you think get a damage conversion buff. Maulers? You want reavers to have it instead? I'm sure everyone on alb would hate you for that, smite clerics are very powerful especially in small group settings.
My kids have started to do pve raids (would get slaughtered in competitive rvr of any time), but I had them log on to pendragon for their takes. The comment that I wanted to share was that they were hoping they could buy the "dragon egg" pet with mythril (Think it was a reward from the latest event), and hoping they could get the dragon egg from each realm instead of just the home realm. I suppose they do get an allowance..
They didn't care for keggars but I told them they've lost their minds and I want two!
They also had a hard time using the vanity pets from the mythiril/bp merchant, (keggars and the bat swarm worked okay but the third one I couldn't get to work either). I thought it might have something to do with the set at 1bp price or the area we tried in (Svasud Faste worked for all but the last). Maybe make a note about what zones it can/can't be used in?
@shoke with the greatest of respec you haven’t answered my questions relating to why any of these ideas would be bad for the game and iimproving alb utility it’s classic on here just like in the USA with democrats and republicans you call someone stupid or a zerger just so you can ignore there argument that’s why nothing gets fixed in the USA or on here.
Minstrel getting a reduction in castable 5 sec mez to 2..5 or 3 sec you agree that’s a good idea
Giving tics a decent group heal no counter points relevant to why it would be a bad idea for alb group utility just talking about the offensive abilitys of tics the idea is that with the low population you could slot a tic into the role of a healer more easily.
Giving paladins St again no counter points as to why it would be a bad idea the benefit of St on paladins is for driving into lord rooms and towers where pboe is located st on tics is totally a waste of time both hib and mid have St on tanks we have it on a friar and a tic Is a total waste.
Reavers you did counter but again you didn’t read my post I said a group damage conversion similar to hib and mid similar to the thane energy debuff for the whole group and the enchanter melee buff
Both of these are group effect items in no way is this going to effect reaver solo play so again not understood or read post correctly
Actually pin on a pally would be a good idea so fair point.
The wizard heat debuff is fluff doesn’t effect alb utility the whole idea of my post was to throw out ideas to improve alb utility again totally ignored.
But at least you responded @shoke.
As for @puter it’s sounds to me that you are yet another back in the day hero if I understand correctly you don’t actually play so how can you comprehend the pug 8 man Situation I’ve never heard of your guild or you and your contribution to a thread on realm balance is irrelevant.
Broadsword doesn't answer to you Brut. They have their own agenda. They may take some of your suggestions but they won't literally throw it all in there to make it obvious or it looks like they are being biased. They have to take it from others as well. You may not of got what u wanted in this patch but maybe in other patches you'll see slow implementations of what you are asking for.
What I meant with my comment on heretics is that group heal won't change anything, especially since the power usage changes.
You already have a cleric and friar in the group, how is giving group heals to heretics going to change anything dramatically? That's what I meant when I said that it's all slapping stuff on classes for the sake of it.
If I had to choose between giving paladins ST or pin, it's not even close.
Alb already has all the abilities to push lord rooms.
Minst r5
Theurg r5
Tic R5
ST on friar and tic
You have static tempest on a class can make itself immune to magic. Kinda sounds good for pushing lord rooms?
What else do you want? Giving paladins ST doesn't help you siginificantly, and giving Paladins both ST and Pin won't happen, and I don"t think it should happen. And even Pin I think is OP on alb, considering alb is already the strongest realm in 8v8.
As for the group conversion buff I didn't respond because aside from the mauler r5 idk what other classes have that ability. You'll have to be more specific.
You mention enchanter group buffs. You lose dps doing these enchantments, but you do gain neat stuff. They are way more powerful in caster groups than melee groups. AF debuff >>>>>> than any enchanter enchantment.
Alb has a support that can go warlord, that's pretty neat no? I guess that's kind of like the group abs you are talking about?
Alb main cc is a caster, it's normal that caster comps are naturally better on alb, while hib/mid cc is a support class.
Alb tanker has always been a slow grind to kill groups, but merc can rip, mauler fits well, pally is good, arms hit hard. Not sure why you want reavers to be beasts in groups.
I see why people complain about hib because of the stun nuke in hib. But I'd bet that 90% of the people complaining about the stun / nuke are euro or play euro prime. Your problem is Herorius and zerging, not stun nuke.
Another point that advantages hib, is that since people only zerg and play to jam and add and just pull out the red is dead card you need to have sos in the group. That gives hib a huge advantage over alb and mid, mid losing that "battle" by a mile.
@Koe Tics do not get aquity buffs like list caster (unlike valewalkers),like thanes they do get a spell pierce buff but that doesnt stack with normal item SP.
@Shoke It is not Hero's fault when Hib outnumber Mids or Albs stun is OP at siege. Again last night at crim, plenty of Albs, you get on the wall and all you see is Hib stunning casters /face with finger on stunn waiting for people to even slighty show themselves and then you have 3 Ments using 1 Alb as a AoE DoT anchor while others nuke him down.
As for Adding heat debuff to a Earth Wizard.
Why the heck would you run an earth wiz over a body sorc?
As for @puter it’s sounds to me that you are yet another back in the day hero if I understand correctly you don’t actually play so how can you comprehend the pug 8 man Situation I’ve never heard of your guild or you and your contribution to a thread on realm balance is irrelevant.
Back in the day Hero? I led the Hib BG against Xyorman and Rescu. I stopped leading BGs shortly after Xyorman quit and Rescu straight dodged me. My guild even moved to Mid to help balance the realms because that's where we'd get the most action. I'm pretty sure that's the antithesis of being Hero. No, you don't understand me correctly. I do play. Just not as frequently as I used to. Also, time zones matter when playing DAoC. This is why the problems experienced during EU prime are almost never same as NA prime. It's completely fine you've never heard of my guild. But your ignorance doesn't dictate reality either.
As the population continues to dwindle it becomes more important that players become accountable for their play style. No amount of class balance is going to stop players from ganking each other for easy RPs. The whole realm pride concept completely falls apart when the population is this low. You spend more time roaming the wind or beating on empty doors than fighting other players. This is why it's important for players to self correct and swap to underpopulated realms instead of hopping on a bandwagon. It's also equally important for players to step up and lead BGs or PUGs outside zerg play. The problem is the player base we have is unwilling to do this because it's their $15. Again this is fine. But the reality is it will continue to destroy what's left. NA prime isn't as bad but has its moments where only one BG goes on a rampage. EU prime continues to struggle with this and the lack of players really shows. Neither prime time has 8v8 outside of drafts and solo is virtually dead. Great game this has become and it's honestly not all Broadswords doing.
@Stoopiduser
Hibs dont outnumber alb/mid bec. of their stun. In EU time it is bec. of hero. There are lots of people in his bg that play only when he is online. This week he wasnt online...i guess it was a good week for alb/mids.
Comments
Hmm, Alb can make good tank groups. Alb wins the interrupt war, and they changed the sorc over the years to help him be more viable in tank groups, mainly by adding the damage redux buff in the Mind line (add high physical defense + conversion in a template + sorc r5) and a sorc is tanky as hell.
Theurgists are OP, whatever the setting.
So you can def run cleric friar sorc theurg and 4 tanks. You have perma celerity on the paladin, mercs are OP, PW necros hit hard, arms hit hard, I mean you got option.
You can also run 3 tanks + af debuff in a 3/3.
Replace a tank for a tic, you now have magic immunity + backline peels + extra heals.
Albs has all the tools.
How does a friar "not stack well in these groups"?
It is easier to play in keeps on hib, hands down.
Is it so much different than having your cleric/healer stun for you? Not really.
Most PUG groups and even sometimes the "set" groups in BG's / keep defenses won't even take the time to setup an MA, let alone have their support stun for them. Then they will come on the forums asking for a drastic change to fit their playstyle. Players don't want to get better, they want to be spoonfed RP's. I bet there's not many on the forum who are even aware of the %t assist macro
So, a typical keep fight...lets say hib/alb....then albs have maybe 2 clerics who can stun....but on the other side we have about 10 hib casters who can stun you. .....whats better?
Permanent stun on a caster has and always will be a bad game design. No one likes to be stunned without being able to purge and no way of responding. (see Theurgist).
The fact that you feel minstrels should get heals, and don't think that sorcs or friars compare well to other classes is also very misguided. These classes have features that distinguish them from other classes and make them useful in their own way. I could just as easily say that Healer's are at a disadvantage because they don't have a lifetap. Do you think that Healer's should get a lifetap?
It seems you are advocating all the realms being exactly the same. The differences in the realms are what make RvR unique and interesting.
I am honestly questioning whether you actually play RvR? Do you even play this game?
Edit: and can someone please confirm whether Hib stun has been in the game forever? I played just after beta and I always remember hib casters having stun .... Fairly sure this person is lying.
i'm not asking for a weapon skill upgrade them for or damage bump per hit (thou damage over the course of a fight would go up if you landed more hits), more like look at the attacks that a 0-5%(or even a negative) to hit chance and maybe bumping them up some. mainly warden anytime, friar holy staff and staff mauler wild swing.
Reavers need 2-handed morning star... worthless class other than as a soloer otherwise
you shouldnt be able to defend a keep with < 50% regardless what realm you are on. Its a population issue not a game issue.
not to mention that clerics need to be healing and rezzing and clearing disease, etc... - it's a juggling act
Reducing minstrel aoe mez Time tics having A decent group heal and the reaver getting a similar damage conversion buff similar to hib and mid were all proposed along with the Armsman thread all with viable and sensible suggestions nothing that is overpowered but because its alb it’s shot down with the same old you ain’t got a clue about game mechanics well you know what something is very wrong with alb when I can run a pac healer on mid in a group of 5 an aug a skald and one zerker and a sb ffs and take down alb 8 mans with easy just fricking embarassing and the same could apply to hib in fact hib is even easier
You wanna keep burying your head in the sand and ignoring what’s going on fine enjoy your 2 realm game.
You're not taking down 8mans with 5. You're taking out a bunch of casuals likely farming Doppels. The game is balanced around players actually being able to play their classes which only a small fraction of the remaining population can do. This is the irony behind the choices BS has made in terms of class balance. They catered to players that don't play here anymore. Honestly, I'm surprised how many clueless players are left when there's an alternative better suited for their skill level. But, as several people have pointed out before, bad players will always get destroyed by better players regardless of the abilities available. This is why zergs mostly consist of terrible players and why a PUG of randoms can't defend a keep like a competent 8 man. Ywain is a low population server dominated by players who don't know how to play their classes. No patch will change the mindset of these folks including yourself.
tldr: git gud
Probably because those are set up for fights with even numbers. I don't think it's the classes that are OP but the fact there are atleast 3 hib caster DPS that can stun for themselves and when Hibs outnumber the other realms it seems there is and endless amount of stuns being thrown around during siege fights.
Nice try. 8v8's are a whole different game as are /bowtowns and set up 1v1s. There is no element of surprise or change. You know what you are fighting and what to expect. They are held in open fields so los is not an issue. The issue that everyone sees other than the "I'm going to play dumb" Hib lifers is stun/nuke in a siege situation when Hibs are defending or attacking. It's not rocket science but some of you just refuse to admit that it is a HUGE advantage. Almost every Hib/Mid will say Thurgs are the most OP class they fight against but please tell me how effective are they in keep defense or siege in general? I'll tell you, they are useless as they need open field fights to do their job because of how pets work with pathing. At least Ani bombers can track properly, Thurgy pets do nothing.
Bruh your Archer in Molvik please stop lolllllllllllllllllllllll
It's an Archer "nerf", but it will for sure impact Rangers and Melee Hunters the most.
https://divoxutils.com/users/user_2ZTPHy8tjVF9LWMgujSZfCY9Mos/characters
You know I am not saying that.
I am saying there is no point even trying against Hibs if they have >50% numbers. Hib stun locks down entire defense/attack and it is nota problem Mid vs Albs or Albs vs Mids.
@John_Broadsword How about Necro's get a base AF shield like all other casters? Seeing as free MoC removed.
Umm nope. Base AF and then they go into Melee form and all of a sudden have a 1300 AF and lives are ruined. It's a pretty fair tradeoff with Necros to be fair. They are squishy unless timers are up and they are powerhogs.
Base AF buffs from a bot are better than Sup pot, I was thinking it would be fine even if it was the same value of a base bot buff. Dont get me wrong, It was alot worse when I needed a bot account just to buff my necro and pet
They already kill spec AF when you enter tank form, they could cancel base buffs aswell.
I agree with you on the Theurg comment. They really do nothing for Alb in the siege context. And I will be the first to admit that baseline stun on Hib casters is a huge advantage. But I think the advantage is very contextual. And I feel it's fair to point that out--not necessarily directing the rest of this to you, Bumbles.
No doubt HIb-casted baseline stun can be a huge advantage in keep fights--especially when defending the walls of keeps where the defenders have line of sight. You give me one or two assisters, and that target is almost assuredly dead. It can also be a huge a huge advantage when attacking a keep, especially in the inner section of a keep where again there is line of sight protection.
However, it does have its limitations as well. Attacking against Albs can be quite difficult. All Hib baseline stuns are 1,500 range. Most every Alb group runs a Sorc, which has 1,850 AOE mez and 1,850 AOE root. These are devastating interrupters. I do realize that Hib has counters, such as Menty amenesia and NS (both over 2,000), Bainshee focus NS (over 2,000), and Animist 1,850 AOE root. But it is extremely difficult to cast a stun at 1,500 on Alb defenders unless Alb is extremely underpopulated in a fight. Mid is less difficult for Hib casters, but the Thane 1,650 (I think) range on AOE hammers can make things more difficult.
Also, stun does virtually nothing when holding the banister in a keep push (most tanks have high Det or Stoicism or both and many can charge). Same thing for Lord room holds. It's all about numbers.
I think we can agree each realm has its advantages. I will surely concede Hib baseline stun can be overpowered and is an advantage. But it is not a guaranteed win. It is situational and is offset and countered by other factors. And I think it's disingenuous not to recognize that and deem it the reason why Hib can take or defend a keep.
Most often, it's all about numbers and skill and leadership.
Agree 100%. I think these issues are brought up and based around Hero during the EU time frame. That is when the Stun/nuke is glaring as both Albs/Mids are fighting 3x the numbers on a good day. In normal US prime-time fights for the most part it's a non-factor as numbers and in turn interrupts even things out.
this
hib has 3 casters who can stun and nuke and one of them can also do resist debuffs for all 3 of them. albs and mids have nothing like that.
i sometimes feel like defending a keep on mid is like hibs shooting fish in a barrel of whatever comes within line of sight. having all the hibs casters beeing able to stun and then assist is not like having a healer stun and then having casters taking a shot at that target, it's just not the same.
hib has always been better at competing with inferior numbers. seems the game was balanced around that. but now hib is not the mandatory low numbers realm. but they still seem to have advantages build in to compensate for having lower numbers which doesn't reflect the current age.
the 9 second stun on multiple casters in one realm is just wrong.
On the stun front. If you compare RC RM to void eld (hib apologists will say "but who plays void eld, seriously)- that's the point, it's the worst hib caster but it's still better than RC RM. If your argument is "but the debuff" you could also compare RC rm to mana chanter and mana chanter wins hands down.
I propose giving void elds a spec 209 cold dd at 49 void, scrapping the bain body debuff (seriously just run a void eld if you want it. Making void eld stronger makes running a bain a more viable option, and bains alrady have the strongest dd in game and better utility than most alb/mid casters), scrapping the proposed RC RM 10% energy dd debuff, and giving them a spec line 9 sec stun at 49 RC instead.
However, considering BS takes about 6 months to react and fix their bad ideas, there is a good chance they actually go through with the bain buff and fix it after christmas.
You forgot to say they will first defend their decision and claim we just don't understand what they are trying to do before fixing anything.
We probably agree that min/max playerbase wants to run the most efficient setup (unless they want a challenge) and the casual base cares less about this but still cares about it (BG players mostly). One thing I have loved about this game for a very long time is that you can't have it all and you have to make choices. That's why I'd support a specline DD for void but not a body debuff for bains.
I think specline stuns on RC RM, or BA BD, or Ice Theug would be fine as the weakest spec line. I don't know we need to be making the strong stronger, however.
The main issue with this patch is that it’s not correcting faults that have sprung up with other patches that have been implemented by broadsword.
I repeat I do not want to see any realm nerfed and I agree I can see how hibs are very afraid that stun nuke nuke will be taken away in its present form.
And I don’t doubt that’s why the hib Zerg isn’t running this week the hibs have always been very clever at propaganda sadly albs don’t fight there corner.
I totally agree that hib have always been compensated for lack of numbers but that’s changed we need a rebalance hib is the dominant realm now it’s the starter realm.
You can make good groups on alb that’s not in question.
The main issue is the utility on alb that just isn’t there for a low population.
Updating housing gving the earth wiz a fire debuff and nerfing necros isn’t going to affect the fundamental problems on alb.
No one is asking for minstrels to get heals
What would make a difference is reducing the minstrel aoe mez cast time to 2.5 or 3 not a massive change.
But it allows minis to lead groups more easily and reduces the need for a sorc.
Giving tics a decent group heal removing St from tics and giving it to Pallys.
Finally giving the reaver a damage conversion buff similar to Both mid and hib.
I’ve given up on Armsman getting any love.
Now please tell me why any of this is bad for the game.
State your problems with any of these ideas and I will counter.
And @puter and @shoke please state who your in game toons are and what realm you play so I can see what great 8 man toons you play then I
might know who is bitching about me and then maybe I might respect your opinion.
I didn't bitch at you, I only said that for every reasonable proposal you made (reducing Minstrel ae mezz cast speed) you made some wild unrealistic proposal (giving Minstrels dual wield), which dillutes and overshadow the more reasonable things you mention.
And to answer/reply to the points you make.
Heretics : main issues with tics are that, on paper, they are great. However, I've only seen 2 good tics in the last 4 years, and that was Gaven and Yama (Flik here). The funny thing is that they played them both completely differently.
It's the most obvious example of a class with a million abilities that have just been slapped on the class over the years to "buff it" because it was underplayed.
The main issues with heretics is that they are on the heat train, and they get shut down by pets easily. They have insane RAs, insane dps, insane tankyness, and they still suck in 99% of the playerbase hands.
Heretics need either to be left alone, or to be swapped to the body train. But putting them on the body train, with all the abilities that they have, would probably be way way OP.
Paladin : giving them ST would be like giving st to the tic, just another ability slapped on a class to "buff it" while it won't have any real benefit. However, Pin should 100% be removed from reavers and given to paladins. It would even out the groups where champs and valks have pin and are good in groups (valk being way better than a champ since the nerfs).
I don't think trying to buff reavers to make them group friendly is a good idea, it'll just unbalance reavers in solo/small.
Giving heat debuffs to wizards was a good idea, it now allows you to have a heat train with more than 2 casters on it. It probably won't pick up because ppl like them fire wizards, but you could have a wiz and 2x tic group and probably kill alot of ppl.
The bainshee body debuff is again an example of trying to buff a class that is underplayed because 99% of the game pop doesn't know wtf to do with them, or all they do is go PW and pulse bomb in keeps. Bainshees are great, but they suffer from being on the "wrong" train. So you have to build a group specifically to include them, which just doesn't exist in this casual zerging era of daoc.
And for the record, that patch is 100% missing the mark on most of what the playerbase has been bitching about. They left OP classes untouched (giving crescendo to necros almost feels like they buffed them), they are making the mount system incredibly complicated to set them up for the implementation of more cash shop purchases, they are changing house skins (which nobody asked for but they had an artist picking his nose doing nothing), and they are giving out randoms small class buffs left and right, that have no significant effect on anything.
At the same time, they are not touching the real problems of the game, that are that zerging is the only playstyle, that solo is dead, smallman has been dead for a while now, that 8 man only exists to sidecar zergs or do drafts, that Hero is still ruining Euro prime.
I REALLY think Reavers need a 2h option or something. They at least need to be looked at. very powerful 1v1 but near worthless in a group. To this day I hate how they nerfed all their DD spells to different damage types, goes against all logic of class lore being spirit damage and doing cold and body damage wtf @Broadsword.
Tics are so beefy. trying to kill a tic in melee with a pally in group is laughable, but buffing their group heal SLIGHTLY might not hurt anything there but idk
Give armsmen, and all heavies for that matter, a bonus for 2handed damage (maybe?).
Overall this patch just shows laziness on their end
8 man is the most difficult playstyle to do on a consistent basis, not because it takes more skills, but because it is the least convenient.
People zerg because it's easy. You join the bg, get in a group, and just have fun. Nobody expects you to do anything specific, you don't have to join a guild, be on a specific times, etc. You log on, you play, you log out.
Solo is also convenient. It's much more difficult to be good and successful at, but it's easier because you are the only one you need to manage. You go afk when you need to, you log on and off when you want to, it's easy.
8 man is difficult because you need someone that will commit to building the groups every night. You need 8 reliable players that will log on at the right time, and will log off at the same time. They need to accept to play specific roles and classes. They need to spec a certain way. They need to execute specific things. It's really difficult to find enough players that you actually enjoy playing with that fill these criterias.
I bet that if you promoted 8 man and making it extremely profitable to play, solo would thrive aswell. Smallmans would actually look to fill instead of feeding on soloers.
Zergers would still zerg, maybe a couple groups lookong to get more RPs woukd detach and go roam.
That's why the other place is so successful. Their whole RvR dynamic is based on 8v8. The class balance choices are based on 8v8. Their rvr tasks are designed so that 8v8 gives the best RP/hour. You get free RPs for running 8v8. And guess what, people still smallman, they still solo and they definitely still zerg.
8 man is as you described is the most difficult to maintain than when you consider you will have the 1-2 sets that been running the whole time feasting on everything else til they run it off server again.
If you want 8 mans to thrive you have to realise you cannot go apeshit hunting down and harassing the groups that know they aren't good enough to compete against you, and let them get better fighting the other groups which you know the sets won't do.
I say the same thing to solos I talk to killing the quester or low RR once and let them pass. so they can find more even fights and actually learn to enjoy the play style works out better than ripping them as many times as possible before they log.
Thegenerallee-shadowblade
Misleadinglooks-warrior
Grumblejr-hero
Danceswithdebuffs-champion
Faatkid-druid
@Brut I led the guild group Casting Couch / Fifty Shades of Slay back in 2019. We only played during NA prime so you probably only saw us when you were stuck to Rescu. We were by no means great but no smally took us out. The only group that beat us consistently was Xuu's crew. Traded wins against Creaper's crew quite often though which made for fun fights. I stopped playing consistently due to RL time conflicts and my growing disdain for BS. Some of us moved on and some of us still play here. I only dabble here and there on Ywain but I don't think I'll ever commit time like I did then to this server ever again.
Like you said, BS has an example in their face that made 8v8 their balancing reference point. They do take action on other styles, but 8v8 has been their focus.
Other styles naturally fit around that.
I'd say for all 3 points that just because one class is more desirable doesn't mean we need to buff something else for group play.
Minstrels getting mez timer reduced: I'll give you that minstrels getting a low cast speed mez would make sense except that 1) they already get an instant pbaoe mez and 2) they run in pretty much every stealth group on alb. Also minstrel can cast mez will sprinting, away from you (if they are good). It requires no /face. Also remember that sorcs were recently buffed, significantly, to make alb more on par with hib/mid in terms of survivability of the primary cc class.
Giving Tics a decent group heal and giving pallys ST. Tics can be a small race and they have a lot of spec points and as such can spec for insane damage redux through shield, extremely high abs and extremely high AF. As list casters they also get acuity bonuses and can easily cap dex stat. At the same time they are able to do impressive damage and interrupt, clear pets, and use probably the single most powerful rr5 in the game. I was heavily against giving pallies group heals (I know wardens have them) but at least wardens have to give up stuff to get group heals. Giving pallies group heals in their chants line would have been like giving wardens group and ST heals in their buff line. Meanwhile mids still don't have access to a heal class with more than 1.0 spec points to spend. I would argue valks need an updated mending line to include spec group heals before we even talk about tics, and I don't think valks need a buff to mending line.
Damage conversion for reavers: The issue is they are very strong solo. They can also use damage conversion proc weapons. Also clerics get damage conversion. I'm curious what mid/hib classes you think get a damage conversion buff. Maulers? You want reavers to have it instead? I'm sure everyone on alb would hate you for that, smite clerics are very powerful especially in small group settings.
They didn't care for keggars but I told them they've lost their minds and I want two!
They also had a hard time using the vanity pets from the mythiril/bp merchant, (keggars and the bat swarm worked okay but the third one I couldn't get to work either). I thought it might have something to do with the set at 1bp price or the area we tried in (Svasud Faste worked for all but the last). Maybe make a note about what zones it can/can't be used in?
Minstrel getting a reduction in castable 5 sec mez to 2..5 or 3 sec you agree that’s a good idea
Giving tics a decent group heal no counter points relevant to why it would be a bad idea for alb group utility just talking about the offensive abilitys of tics the idea is that with the low population you could slot a tic into the role of a healer more easily.
Giving paladins St again no counter points as to why it would be a bad idea the benefit of St on paladins is for driving into lord rooms and towers where pboe is located st on tics is totally a waste of time both hib and mid have St on tanks we have it on a friar and a tic Is a total waste.
Reavers you did counter but again you didn’t read my post I said a group damage conversion similar to hib and mid similar to the thane energy debuff for the whole group and the enchanter melee buff
Both of these are group effect items in no way is this going to effect reaver solo play so again not understood or read post correctly
Actually pin on a pally would be a good idea so fair point.
The wizard heat debuff is fluff doesn’t effect alb utility the whole idea of my post was to throw out ideas to improve alb utility again totally ignored.
But at least you responded @shoke.
As for @puter it’s sounds to me that you are yet another back in the day hero if I understand correctly you don’t actually play so how can you comprehend the pug 8 man Situation I’ve never heard of your guild or you and your contribution to a thread on realm balance is irrelevant.
Broadsword doesn't answer to you Brut. They have their own agenda. They may take some of your suggestions but they won't literally throw it all in there to make it obvious or it looks like they are being biased. They have to take it from others as well. You may not of got what u wanted in this patch but maybe in other patches you'll see slow implementations of what you are asking for.
What I meant with my comment on heretics is that group heal won't change anything, especially since the power usage changes.
You already have a cleric and friar in the group, how is giving group heals to heretics going to change anything dramatically? That's what I meant when I said that it's all slapping stuff on classes for the sake of it.
If I had to choose between giving paladins ST or pin, it's not even close.
Alb already has all the abilities to push lord rooms.
Minst r5
Theurg r5
Tic R5
ST on friar and tic
You have static tempest on a class can make itself immune to magic. Kinda sounds good for pushing lord rooms?
What else do you want? Giving paladins ST doesn't help you siginificantly, and giving Paladins both ST and Pin won't happen, and I don"t think it should happen. And even Pin I think is OP on alb, considering alb is already the strongest realm in 8v8.
As for the group conversion buff I didn't respond because aside from the mauler r5 idk what other classes have that ability. You'll have to be more specific.
You mention enchanter group buffs. You lose dps doing these enchantments, but you do gain neat stuff. They are way more powerful in caster groups than melee groups. AF debuff >>>>>> than any enchanter enchantment.
Alb has a support that can go warlord, that's pretty neat no? I guess that's kind of like the group abs you are talking about?
Alb main cc is a caster, it's normal that caster comps are naturally better on alb, while hib/mid cc is a support class.
Alb tanker has always been a slow grind to kill groups, but merc can rip, mauler fits well, pally is good, arms hit hard. Not sure why you want reavers to be beasts in groups.
I see why people complain about hib because of the stun nuke in hib. But I'd bet that 90% of the people complaining about the stun / nuke are euro or play euro prime. Your problem is Herorius and zerging, not stun nuke.
Another point that advantages hib, is that since people only zerg and play to jam and add and just pull out the red is dead card you need to have sos in the group. That gives hib a huge advantage over alb and mid, mid losing that "battle" by a mile.
@Shoke It is not Hero's fault when Hib outnumber Mids or Albs stun is OP at siege. Again last night at crim, plenty of Albs, you get on the wall and all you see is Hib stunning casters /face with finger on stunn waiting for people to even slighty show themselves and then you have 3 Ments using 1 Alb as a AoE DoT anchor while others nuke him down.
As for Adding heat debuff to a Earth Wizard.
Why the heck would you run an earth wiz over a body sorc?
Can anyone tell why its a good thing?
Back in the day Hero? I led the Hib BG against Xyorman and Rescu. I stopped leading BGs shortly after Xyorman quit and Rescu straight dodged me. My guild even moved to Mid to help balance the realms because that's where we'd get the most action. I'm pretty sure that's the antithesis of being Hero. No, you don't understand me correctly. I do play. Just not as frequently as I used to. Also, time zones matter when playing DAoC. This is why the problems experienced during EU prime are almost never same as NA prime. It's completely fine you've never heard of my guild. But your ignorance doesn't dictate reality either.
As the population continues to dwindle it becomes more important that players become accountable for their play style. No amount of class balance is going to stop players from ganking each other for easy RPs. The whole realm pride concept completely falls apart when the population is this low. You spend more time roaming the wind or beating on empty doors than fighting other players. This is why it's important for players to self correct and swap to underpopulated realms instead of hopping on a bandwagon. It's also equally important for players to step up and lead BGs or PUGs outside zerg play. The problem is the player base we have is unwilling to do this because it's their $15. Again this is fine. But the reality is it will continue to destroy what's left. NA prime isn't as bad but has its moments where only one BG goes on a rampage. EU prime continues to struggle with this and the lack of players really shows. Neither prime time has 8v8 outside of drafts and solo is virtually dead. Great game this has become and it's honestly not all Broadswords doing.
Hibs dont outnumber alb/mid bec. of their stun. In EU time it is bec. of hero. There are lots of people in his bg that play only when he is online. This week he wasnt online...i guess it was a good week for alb/mids.
Im still wondering how you fight those 10 hib casters, each with a stun.