champion wishlist

give champions charge ( valks get it, reavers get it,savages get it) thanes and vales dont get it because they have a way to do consistent damage from ranged.(thats what I assume their reasoning is) paladins dont get it because IDK.. anywho

champions need something else to increase their groupability, i think getting the necro way of magic pulsing chant would fit great, add group utility and provide something completely unique to hibernian classes. if they want to add realm parity, then they could give it to thanes as well ( which also would fit theme wise and give them some much needed group utility)

just two thoughts

Comments

  • i would say remove champions ae debuffs, i cant belive they got it
  • Are you kidding!?
    These Debuffs are alot too much..
  • Hahahahahahah he wants Champion improved.....are you kidding?!
  • How are champs so oped?
  • Let’s see...90% of hero damage, more vulnerable to CC and magic but get a ton of toys in exchange, snare, DD, debuffs, group buffs. They are interrupt and tank train monsters.
    Symonde (Cleric)
    Symfriar (Friar duh)
    Symsorc (Double duh)
    Sympets (Theurg)
    Symmond (Arms)
    Some random mids and hibs
  • Yeah, they seem to be far better off now than I remember.

    DAoC has quite a few moving parts. It's likely that many classes that perform well for seasoned players and 8v8s still confuddle quite a few others.
  • You can’t give charge to ST classes.
    Da ant family - House 1809Da fly family - House 4501Da spider family - House 444
    Check out the trophy collection - Ywain 1.
    https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/daredant
  • Solivos wrote: »
    How are champs so oped?

    If you give a Melee Class like Champions AE (!) Debuffs on Cast Range (!) with instant cast time (!) with a silly recast timer its OP enough. Melees don't hit tough Warden bubble anymore because they hit so slow and Casters don't get anyone down because they cast like they are level 1.
  • edited April 2018 PM
    I'm really surprised by all these comments especially a lot of them are not really true

    @Sym - 90% of Hero damage? A Champion has hybrid WS with primary Str and a tiny dd as extra damage. Even the damage potential of a 50 Sword Skald is higher (Troll + secondary Str), in fact beside Minstrel, bow classes and warden/bard I see no other melee class doing less damage than Champion with Skald and Paladin close by (Paladin having less base Str but celerity up 100%).

    Look at a Spear Valk for example - Offensive buff, Spear proc (roundhouse), 2 DDs and DD aura vs. 3% extra crit (equals +0.9% damage). The Champ's damage is low OUTSIDE of rr5 and Call of Champion.

    @DaRedANT - I'm personally not asking for charge but since charge + TWF was no problem why should ST + charge be?

    @Lovelazzeas - except the attack speed debuff there is NOTHING a champion brings to a group that is unique. If there is an Eldrich in the group than you already have Str/con + Dex/qui aoe deduffs instant and cast range on a classes that can easily have +25% debuff+duration bonus AND brings str and dex single debuffs as well. A classic moon + light enchanter also has 27% dehaste aoe and 31% single dehaste. Isn't champ debuff range 1000 not 1500?

    @Sym - regarding utility of Valor in group: The AoM buff is nearly pointless in group play, overrides stellar buff, doesn't stack with BaoD and Soldiers Barricade. 3% crit bonus is laughable considering it's only a 0.9% damage boost. Being able to ignore a bubble every 15 seconds is nice but nothing groundbreaking. That leaves 1 dd every 15 seconds and a snare that gives root/ snare style immunity every 20 seconds.
    Post edited by Adeera on
  • Adeera wrote: »
    I'm really surprised by all these comments especially a lot of them are not really true

    @Sym - 90% of Hero damage? A Champion has hybrid WS with primary Str and a tiny dd as extra damage. Even the damage potential of a 50 Sword Skald is higher (Troll + secondary Str), in fact beside Minstrel, bow classes and warden/bard I see no other melee class doing less damage than Champion with Skald and Paladin close by (Paladin having less base Str but celerity up 100%).

    Look at a Spear Valk for example - Offensive buff, Spear proc (roundhouse), 2 DDs and DD aura vs. 3% extra crit (equals +0.9% damage). The Champ's damage is low OUTSIDE of rr5 and Call of Champion.

    @DaRedANT - I'm personally not asking for charge but since charge + TWF was no problem why should ST + charge be?

    @Lovelazzeas - except the attack speed debuff there is NOTHING a champion brings to a group that is unique. If there is an Eldrich in the group than you already have Str/con + Dex/qui aoe deduffs instant and cast range on a classes that can easily have +25% debuff+duration bonus AND brings str and dex single debuffs as well. A classic moon + light enchanter also has 27% dehaste aoe and 31% single dehaste. Isn't champ debuff range 1000 not 1500?

    @Sym - regarding utility of Valor in group: The AoM buff is nearly pointless in group play, overrides stellar buff, doesn't stack with BaoD and Soldiers Barricade. 3% crit bonus is laughable considering it's only a 0.9% damage boost. Being able to ignore a bubble every 15 seconds is nice but nothing groundbreaking. That leaves 1 dd every 15 seconds and a snare that gives root/ snare style immunity every 20 seconds.


    There is a huge difference between a debuffing caster and a debuffing melee.
    A caster has to stand in the backfield, if he tries to debuff the enemie supporter/caster he has to give up his safe position.
    A melee can just charge into the enemie backfield, debuff everything and kite a little bit back again with a much better defense than a caster.
  • Ok so here my side of the Champion

    TLDR Champ rr5, ST and call of champion are the only reasons Champs are not considered a horrible class.

    First I think the direction they went with Champ was not so bad but they didn't really went through with it properly. I do play a champ sometimes at solo spots but prefer to roam other areas mostly solo.

    Solo play: I'm a average player but I did my homework and have a decent temp. I can just tell from my side of the experience I have and that is Champ are not bad solo but they are far away from the top of the food chain. My main complain is that they only rock with rr5, ST and call of champions up. If all of them are down the champ is a rather weaker character.

    I would like to see the buffs that come with the debuffs slightly improved and on the same time reduce the time of the "spike" abilities while also reducing the recast timer.
    - dehaste debuff casts a 25% crit buff instead of 3% (crit is +10-50% so that means a 7,5% damage bonus instead of 0.9%. This is a much stronger reason to justify the spot in a group for champ than that lousy 0.9%.
    - dex/qui casts a 20% AoM instead of 10%, This is at least BaoD 2 level and better than the item charges
    - consider to put champ into Friar/Heretic/Mauler/Savage or even Valewalker weapon table
    - reduce rr5 duration to 4.5 seconds ( max 3 hits) but with a 2.5 minute recast time
    - reduce Call of champion duration to 15 seconds with 5 minutes and slightly increase the duration of the debuffs

    My personal solo resume atm is like this
    Full tanks -> interesting fights, Stun into ST + rr5 will end it often but for this I need to pull purge first so often a long fight. Proper dehaste will decrease my chances.
    Light tanks -> even with demoralization, debuffs and fumble charge I often do not survive the first 40 seconds (especially vs. Merc)
    Assassins -> poision + dual wield specced ones give me a really hard fight, my weapon damage sometimes goes down below 200 with 412 Str and 66 Two-hand. Ghostly reggen and ST help out here to some extend,
    Hybrids without heals -> Skalds, Paladin, Thane and Reaver: depends strongly on player
    Valks, Mauler (Fumble, Hot) and Friar (Hot spec): Champ damage is just too low to kill these fast enough. Sometimes I get close but the really tough player can always use toys to make sure a lucky RNG get's countered.
    Shaman and especially SM and Minstrel: really bad fight for the champ, without the other player screwing up badly I nearly always loose.
  • When i came back to daoc at first i was overwhelmed by all the "new" abilitys Champs got over After ToA. But they are on the other hand somewhat diminished by the changes to LW-line in my opinion. I also wondered why Some classes get special effects on styles and champs dont. Would fit the class in my opinion.

    Champs have lower Ws and lower HP like all hybrids. Like @Adeera said, it can be rly tough against some classes.

  • Dont champs have banelord and debuffs? cant they not dump on a target and take them out?
  • @Morgan
    WS is the middle hybrid WS table and they have even Str as rising stat (but lack high str race). However, except few other hybrids other classes have either style procs, additional damage via spells or just a higher WS factor.
    http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_Table

    Champs have a rather good hitpoint factor (second best, best of hybrids), they just lack rising con. I'm very happy with my HP to be honest.
    http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Hitpoints

    @pigleto ain't that simple most of the time (vs. competitive players) ... at least for me. Maybe others have different experience and can share some inside
  • Gotta look at the other positives for Champs as well.

    You don't have to sub spec your damage type through LW giving you access to two damage types (crush/slash).

    You have access to the highest armor type in Hibernia.

    There is no longer any concern for running oop through debuff rounds given the return benefits that the acuity debuff has (across all realms).

    As an Armsman, champions are one of the most difficult classes to defeat standing toe-to-toe and when abilities are utilized have the highest melee dps output next to quad-hitting savage strikes.

    The claim that it's difficult to kill if you don't have ST/rr5/CoC is ludicrous. Every class in the game can claim it's difficult to defeat an enemy if their abilities are down.

    The debuffs can essentially neutralize an opponents WS/block and parry rate/weapon damage/swing speed/health/cast speed and now it's an AoE buff and it still isn't enough? Even with buffs attached?

    It's easy to get lost in your own class and begin to identify things you'd like to have increased but you need to remember that one class isn't supposed to be able to counter every single other class.

    As far as groups are concerned @Lovelazzeas is absolutely correct. You have a high-end melee dps class that can debuff an entire group while simultaneously buffing their own group and absorb the incoming dps. They can also, if needed, utilize ST on debuffed targets as well as a rr5 that significantly boosts melee dps
  • .
    Gotta look at the other positives for Champs as well.

    You don't have to sub spec your damage type through LW giving you access to two damage types (crush/slash).

    You have access to the highest armor type in Hibernia.

    There is no longer any concern for running oop through debuff rounds given the return benefits that the acuity debuff has (across all realms).

    As an Armsman, champions are one of the most difficult classes to defeat standing toe-to-toe and when abilities are utilized have the highest melee dps output next to quad-hitting savage strikes.

    The claim that it's difficult to kill if you don't have ST/rr5/CoC is ludicrous. Every class in the game can claim it's difficult to defeat an enemy if their abilities are down.

    The debuffs can essentially neutralize an opponents WS/block and parry rate/weapon damage/swing speed/health/cast speed and now it's an AoE buff and it still isn't enough? Even with buffs attached?

    It's easy to get lost in your own class and begin to identify things you'd like to have increased but you need to remember that one class isn't supposed to be able to counter every single other class.

    As far as groups are concerned @Lovelazzeas is absolutely correct. You have a high-end melee dps class that can debuff an entire group while simultaneously buffing their own group and absorb the incoming dps. They can also, if needed, utilize ST on debuffed targets as well as a rr5 that significantly boosts melee dps

    Good post. Sums up most of my thoughts as well. I think Champions are one of the most rounded / balanced melee classes in the game right now.
    Tral
  • The only idea I like is bumping their damage table with a 'balancing' of BoV+BS if needed. Some of the other paper daoc back/forth seems a bit...much. A champion debuffing an entire group is a great idea if you're all standing on top of eachother. A champion push debuffing requires the same attention by support of any melee class, where-as casters have the luxury of being "stuck" in the backfield. Debuffs don't neutralize s/s anywhere near as much as an Armsman main will tell you. The "rr5 that significantly boosts melee dps" basically gives them damage at/near that of any other tank. That all being said, I don't like a lot of the proposed changes. They're pretty okay overall. I was an opponent of them getting a celerity chant a few years ago. It'd be a pretty fun idea to throw around again though. ;)
  • Well with all that has been said NOONE denied that champion is the lowest damage hybrid class (excluding Warden/Bard/Minstrel) right?
    We can argue now if Paladin or Skald have equally low damage or not, but if you really look at what Champs bring in utility vs. these two classes then ask yourself if the debuffs are really that big of a game changer.

    Sure timers are part of the game, but my point was that champs are super timer dependent and the strong rr5 is the only reason champs are not considered bad. Make sure champs are better outside of rr5 + ST but reduce the power of the rr5 (or make it shorter but with faster recast). This can be done by increasing the damage table, increasing the crit chance bonus of the attack haste debuff (as the current bonus is so low it's useless) or an instant absorb debuff, similar to the reaver one.

    The fact an assassin debuffs my damage more (once both dots are applied) than my champ debuffs their damage is what really makes me wonder why people think the debuffs are so OP (down to 200 and less with a 2-hand 1900 WS on leather with bonus to their armor type).

    From the 4 positive spells on the debuffs only 2 are really useful
    1) power bonus
    2) pbt remove and block of pulse pbt

    The other two are just minor buffs
    3) 3% crit on both magic and melee = 3% crit equals 0.9% dps increase for you and your group
    4) 10% aom charge is overwriting stellar buff, is superseded by BaoD, Soldiers barricade or Item AoM charge. It's only useful in solo play, because it allows you to template without AoM item charge.
  • smakadop wrote: »
    The only idea I like is bumping their damage table with a 'balancing' of BoV+BS if needed. Some of the other paper daoc back/forth seems a bit...much. A champion debuffing an entire group is a great idea if you're all standing on top of eachother. A champion push debuffing requires the same attention by support of any melee class, where-as casters have the luxury of being "stuck" in the backfield. Debuffs don't neutralize s/s anywhere near as much as an Armsman main will tell you. The "rr5 that significantly boosts melee dps" basically gives them damage at/near that of any other tank. That all being said, I don't like a lot of the proposed changes. They're pretty okay overall. I was an opponent of them getting a celerity chant a few years ago. It'd be a pretty fun idea to throw around again though. ;)

    <3

    I may have been a bit liberal in a few of my examples ;). My general point, as I see you indirectly agree as well, was to refute the OP's concept that Champions are a near-worthless class and need more abilities.

    I can meet you half way on increasing their damage table with a subsequent revamp of BoV and BS to keep their damage spike potential in line while increasing their overall base damage, that doesn't seem overtly unreasonable.
  • Adeera wrote: »
    Well with all that has been said NOONE denied that champion is the lowest damage hybrid class (excluding Warden/Bard/Minstrel) right?
    We can argue now if Paladin or Skald have equally low damage or not, but if you really look at what Champs bring in utility vs. these two classes then ask yourself if the debuffs are really that big of a game changer.

    Sure timers are part of the game, but my point was that champs are super timer dependent and the strong rr5 is the only reason champs are not considered bad. Make sure champs are better outside of rr5 + ST but reduce the power of the rr5 (or make it shorter but with faster recast). This can be done by increasing the damage table, increasing the crit chance bonus of the attack haste debuff (as the current bonus is so low it's useless) or an instant absorb debuff, similar to the reaver one.

    The fact an assassin debuffs my damage more (once both dots are applied) than my champ debuffs their damage is what really makes me wonder why people think the debuffs are so OP (down to 200 and less with a 2-hand 1900 WS on leather with bonus to their armor type).

    From the 4 positive spells on the debuffs only 2 are really useful
    1) power bonus
    2) pbt remove and block of pulse pbt

    The other two are just minor buffs
    3) 3% crit on both magic and melee = 3% crit equals 0.9% dps increase for you and your group
    4) 10% aom charge is overwriting stellar buff, is superseded by BaoD, Soldiers barricade or Item AoM charge. It's only useful in solo play, because it allows you to template without AoM item charge.

    I'm not denying that you're experiencing these issues; however, your class is a hybrid for a reason. If you want heavy tank dps (you already have heavy tank armor) then you have to give something up too or else all Heavies would be running around with some sort of magical capability as well and that's not how the game is designed.

    The debuffs are extremely effective and useful; more so than what you're giving them credit for. You have the capability of fully debuffing an opponents stat line within seconds, along with others nearby, while also applying a max dehaste (assuming you're high valor spec).

    I believe many of the issues you're encountering are not class issues but player/template issues. Have you tried different tactics? Ardees has a few champion videos on YouTube I'd recommend watching, if you haven't already, that demonstrate how effective champions can be if utilized efficiently.

    You can't completely compare your abilities to that of the paladin and skald. Remember you're playing a heavy armor type hybrid on a realm that mainly consists of magical dps types with multiple, multiple heal options (bard/druid/warden/mentalist). Class balance isn't just about balancing each individual archtype against one another but also balancing archtype abilities in conjunction to what kind of combination setups can be achieved. For instance, given my last example, could you imagine how unbalanced gameplay would become by giving champions an instant hot or a group heal or the ability to cast lesser heals, etc.

    As to being timer dependent I still 100% disagree. You won't be able to kill everything (as I've previously stated; I can't kill everything on my Armsman yet I see no current need for change) but if you absolutely need ST/rr5 to earn 100% of your kills then that too is not a class issue it's a player issue/templating issue.

    No one said the champions debuffs are overpowered. They're just more effective than you're giving them credit for. Once again you're falling into the trap of comparing your archtype across the board to multiple different archtypes/classes.

    There are clearly issues that can be corrected; the ability overwrite of the aom charge should be looked at and sure, maybe adjusted.

    Maybe a slight increase to the crit bonus up to 5%, remember this isn't just a return buff to you, it buffs your entire groups melee/magic dps as well. But 0% of what your wish-list originally entailed.

    As for Assassins.. trust me, you aren't the only class type effected by their dps output and poison effectiveness. It's a well known and debated subject ;).

    All in all you clearly care for the Champion class, which is good, it gets debates going regarding potential changes.
  • smakadop wrote: »
    The only idea I like is bumping their damage table with a 'balancing' of BoV+BS if needed. Some of the other paper daoc back/forth seems a bit...much. A champion debuffing an entire group is a great idea if you're all standing on top of eachother. A champion push debuffing requires the same attention by support of any melee class, where-as casters have the luxury of being "stuck" in the backfield. Debuffs don't neutralize s/s anywhere near as much as an Armsman main will tell you. The "rr5 that significantly boosts melee dps" basically gives them damage at/near that of any other tank. That all being said, I don't like a lot of the proposed changes. They're pretty okay overall. I was an opponent of them getting a celerity chant a few years ago. It'd be a pretty fun idea to throw around again though. ;)

    <3

    I may have been a bit liberal in a few of my examples ;). My general point, as I see you indirectly agree as well, was to refute the OP's concept that Champions are a near-worthless class and need more abilities.

    I can meet you half way on increasing their damage table with a subsequent revamp of BoV and BS to keep their damage spike potential in line while increasing their overall base damage, that doesn't seem overtly unreasonable.

    Right on. I can respect that. My biggest "damage" gripe outside of burst is how often you hit for 200,250,300 damage with an appropriate damage type, with a 6.0 speed weapon. You eat one ASR (the irony of a champ bitching about an ASR is amazing, I get it!) and you're hitting amazingly slow, and really not for that much. I still think champs are solid overall. I almost at no point will ever say they need anything, but some minor tweaks and adjustments for 2018 daoc wouldn't be awful. Especially after they ate a debuff nerf.

    I almost turned this into a heavy tank thread. I'll digress for another day. ;)
  • edited May 2018 PM
    hi after reading all these comments, id like to clarify what i was talking about in regards to giving champions something in terms of more group utility. This isnt a case of mid class has this and alb class has that and champ falls into said archetype and therefore is need of whatever those classes have, its in regards to the big picture of grouping in say, hibernia. Hibernia is very much orientated towards casters and healer setups. aside from debuffs, what does a champ bring to a hibernian group that some other class cant do better? melee damage? hero/vw/bm/vamp all do it better.. peeling? hero/warden, charge? vamp/bm. group utility? bards and wardens have a monopoly on group utility in hibernia even mentalists have access to static tempest... there is really notthing aside from debuffs that a champ brings to a group and the kicker here is if you have a on the ball nuture druid, they will just strip off the buffs completely.

    I would like to make it known that I do NOT play hibernia, I have no hib toons, but i believe in bringing classes up rather than nerfing classes down. and would like a more even population distrubution between the realms, and I think tuning some classes would help that.
    Post edited by Solivos on

  • I'm not denying that you're experiencing these issues; however, your class is a hybrid for a reason. If you want heavy tank dps (you already have heavy tank armor) then you have to give something up too or else all Heavies would be running around with some sort of magical capability as well and that's not how the game is designed.

    The debuffs are extremely effective and useful; more so than what you're giving them credit for. You have the capability of fully debuffing an opponents stat line within seconds, along with others nearby, while also applying a max dehaste (assuming you're high valor spec).

    I believe many of the issues you're encountering are not class issues but player/template issues. Have you tried different tactics? Ardees has a few champion videos on YouTube I'd recommend watching, if you haven't already, that demonstrate how effective champions can be if utilized efficiently.

    You can't completely compare your abilities to that of the paladin and skald. Remember you're playing a heavy armor type hybrid on a realm that mainly consists of magical dps types with multiple, multiple heal options (bard/druid/warden/mentalist). Class balance isn't just about balancing each individual archtype against one another but also balancing archtype abilities in conjunction to what kind of combination setups can be achieved. For instance, given my last example, could you imagine how unbalanced gameplay would become by giving champions an instant hot or a group heal or the ability to cast lesser heals, etc.

    As to being timer dependent I still 100% disagree. You won't be able to kill everything (as I've previously stated; I can't kill everything on my Armsman yet I see no current need for change) but if you absolutely need ST/rr5 to earn 100% of your kills then that too is not a class issue it's a player issue/templating issue.

    No one said the champions debuffs are overpowered. They're just more effective than you're giving them credit for. Once again you're falling into the trap of comparing your archtype across the board to multiple different archtypes/classes.

    There are clearly issues that can be corrected; the ability overwrite of the aom charge should be looked at and sure, maybe adjusted.

    Maybe a slight increase to the crit bonus up to 5%, remember this isn't just a return buff to you, it buffs your entire groups melee/magic dps as well. But 0% of what your wish-list originally entailed.

    As for Assassins.. trust me, you aren't the only class type effected by their dps output and poison effectiveness. It's a well known and debated subject ;).

    All in all you clearly care for the Champion class, which is good, it gets debates going regarding potential changes.

    This is just pure FACT! Champion ARE on a simple hybrid table, have NO style procs and have no additional damage except the instant DD.

    Sure champ should not have Hero WT but are you denying that Spear Valks pump out more damage than champs? I also play a reaver and I can tell you the weapon DPS is higher (proc + absorb debuff) as the one from the champ, yet I also have 3x instant dds and tons of utility (including a melee damage potential debuff).

    3% crit = 0.9 DPS increase, 5% crit = 1.5%. Noone cares about 1.5% there are cloaks that give a straight +10%

    I'm not an anazing player and I'm doing overall ok with my champ (temp is great that helps) but if you can skill win vs. a well played Friar, S/S Valk or Mauler without ST + RR5 then great for you! Solo, with the current rr5, ST and energy weapon buff champs do ok but I can honestly not see how an ideal 8on8 setup would choose a champion, the low DPS is just a liability and the utility compared to other hybrids is low.
  • So I watched Ardees video

    It's an entertaining one but actually backs up my point 11 fights 10/11 with AT LEAST 2 of the 3 timed ability used. Nearly all fights with rr5, often ST and you also see call of champion used a lot.
  • As an Armsman, champions are one of the most difficult classes to defeat standing toe-to-toe and when abilities are utilized have the highest melee dps output next to quad-hitting savage strikes

    as a savage in one vs one, i hate champions. they dump, i'm dead.

    and seriously ? a savage has 4-5 % to quad hit. people remember the quad hits, they don't remember the times that a savage did 3 single hits in a row and did crap damage.
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
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