Quick comparison: Fire Wizard (50f/20e) vs Cursing Warlock (48c/24w)
Just for fun:
Wizard:
78.2 DPS DD with 10% Heat Debuff
331 Spec Bolt
239 Base Bolt
Self Grapple/Coccoon
159 Damage AOE
25% Nearsight/10% Matter Debuff
68 Damage GTAE
Warlock
76.5 DPS DD
Baseline Spirit DD (Mid debuff train damage type)
325 Spec Bolt
239 Base Bolt
325 PBAE DD
265 Instant PBAE DD Chamber
65% Nearsight
115% Range Primer
10% Crit Buff Chamber
3%/2s PBAE HoT Chamber
+17% Absorb
+4% Group Healing Bonus
DoT Cure
103 Group Heal
Powerless Primer
8s RUT Instant DoT
172 Major Heal
Wizard:
78.2 DPS DD with 10% Heat Debuff
331 Spec Bolt
239 Base Bolt
Self Grapple/Coccoon
159 Damage AOE
25% Nearsight/10% Matter Debuff
68 Damage GTAE
Warlock
76.5 DPS DD
Baseline Spirit DD (Mid debuff train damage type)
325 Spec Bolt
239 Base Bolt
325 PBAE DD
265 Instant PBAE DD Chamber
65% Nearsight
115% Range Primer
10% Crit Buff Chamber
3%/2s PBAE HoT Chamber
+17% Absorb
+4% Group Healing Bonus
DoT Cure
103 Group Heal
Powerless Primer
8s RUT Instant DoT
172 Major Heal
Post edited by Ylazul on
Minstrel. Thane, Druid
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Comments
you know how much spec points you would need to get all those abilities on a warlock ?
and some of the things you say are blatantly false.
you can't state nearly every ability in every specline for warlocks and only state abilties on a fire wizard with a earth side spec in which you forget to mention a lot of abilties.
it's just dishonest.
and for your information, don't tutor me on wizards, i have a rr 11L7 wizard and you have no clue about warlocks.
do i need to add all the abilities of an ice wizard too ? do we mention the rr five abilities ?
your post is just ...
I said the spec in the title line. Please read carefully. And I even cut out a ton of the abilities that are too weak for the Warlock to really care about in 24 Witchcraft. Otherwise, these are precisely the abilities both classes get, with their precise delves.
Thank you.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
The Warlock, strangely enough, is a better comparison in Mid - it has a Bolt + Spec DD line, an AE DoT/Utility line, and a PBAE line.
The Eld is noticeably stronger than the Wizard esp since Mana got an Energy DD added to it. Runie Darkness is lackluster, but it has good secondary spec choices.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
The Warlock PBAoE is not separate from the spec Bolt + spec DD. Both are in Cursing.
Not exactly sure how the baseline Energy DD makes the Eldritch significantly better than before. The spec root certainly helped though.
I agree that the Darkness line for the Runemaster is weak relative to its other spec lines.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Elds couldn't debuff for their own damage before. The Energy debuff in Void was 49 spec and there was no Energy DD in Mana. Now there is, and the Energy debuff is at 46 spec, giving them bolts and making them a primary debuffer for most other Hib casters. The only class Fire Wizards debuff for in Alb are Heretics, which don't primarily DPS.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I am unsure how many Elds spec this way (I don't due to low RR and less utility). It probably works well with a debuff train but that was always an option before. The main difference now is that they can participate if it's an Energy debuff train. Fire Wizards don't have a high value debuff spell so I don't think that's a relevant comparison.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I could list the 24h abilities instead. Which apparently are even better.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
you already mentioned hex abilties that you can't get with the spec you mentioned.
76.5 DPS DD <<false comparison, after the first nuke, and testing seems to indicate that the 2.8 sec spell actually casts faster than the 2.6 sec cast at full casting speed, for a reason i don't understand) so i highly doubt that DPS number.
Baseline Spirit DD (Mid debuff train damage type) <so, fire wizards get different damage type dd's in diff specs too)
325 Spec Bolt
239 Base Bolt
325 PBAE DD
265 Instant PBAE DD Chamber
65% Nearsight
115% Range Primer
10% Crit Buff Chamber << half of the warlocks i know don't even bother creating that chamber, with high enough WP it has little to zero effect and at low RR, it's situational in that it's probably not worth incurring an extra 5 sec timber on the other chambers >>
3%/2s PBAE HoT Chamber
+17% Absorb
+4% Group Healing Bonus
DoT Cure
103 Group Heal
Powerless Primer <<what powerless primer do you get with the spec you mention ????>>
8s RUT Instant DoT
172 Major Heal
...
i would need to check on the values of the WC abilties that you get at 20 WC, can't comment on them right now
No, it doesn't. lol. Must have been a bad test.
Almost no one specs Earth for a reason. Neither Cold nor Heat are in Alb caster trains.
When you don't even bother to cast a +10% crit buff, it just means the other chambers are so much better.
The +33% cast speed one.
And Ice Wizards are **** at PBAE compared to Warlocks , without question.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
go ahead - amuse me.
i'm already totally bewildered at every single reply in this thread - i'd like to see if you can make me even more amazed at things.
In Alb people still love Fire Wizards, but I'm sure they would love Curselocks even more. Dark Runies and Fire Wizards might need a few buffs.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
The +33% cast speed one.
[/quote]
if you already have 49 % crit chance, than getting an extra 1 % from the chamber isn't worth wasting a chamber timer.
sorry, i meant what powerless primer do you get with the spec you mentioned not the powerless one, powerless primers have a casting speed PENALTY. no uninteruptable primer with the spec you mention.
you also seem to forget the extra bolt in earth that's often the killing blow at long range on a caster ...
It's 100ish delve and hits, usually, for 400ish on casters afaik. +15% range on the Spec Bolt would help finish people off as well.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Character List
Youtube Channel
Twitch Channel
Templates
Alb Casters
Cabalist/Sorc/Wizard/Wizard Crescendo/Wind Theurgist/Earth Theurgist 10conversion 8pierce OR 8conversion 10pierce
Hib Casters
Mentalist/Eldritch/Enchanter/Animist/Bainshee
Mid Casters
Spiritmaster/Runemaster/Runemaster 126dex no GMoV/Bonedancer/Warlock/Warlock Set
Support
Pac Healer 25CCreduc/Aug Healer/Group Shaman/Small/Solo Shaman Set/Friar Heal 25CCreduc/Cleric Heal/Warden Heal 30CCreduc/Druid Group
Hybrids
Group VW/Group Scout/*New*Group Thane/Necro Painworking
Tanks
Group Hero
at peoples understanding, comprehesion and comparing apples and potatoes.
why not just make 3 new realms
Rescunation
John and the Federated Farmers.
Annastasia
make ppl choose a faction and let each realm have everything.
good post.
Great post! Would have been great to read this when Mids were demanding ST because Alb got it, a third climb wall because Alb/Hib have one, Spec AF because Alb had it, 6.0 spd bows and 2300 range because Alb had it, a nerf to Armsman/Paladin growth rates because Mid didn't have it, etc.
The comparison is just because the overlap and similarities are so stark. Warlocks and Wizards have almost all the same spells on the same spec/delve tables, concentrated in similar lines - only the Warlock has a lot things just stuffed here and there.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I dont know Spec af traded for endo from hib and celerity from mid ,seemed like a pretty good trade to me.
Warlocks and wizards play completely different, as alot of the classes do people try to compare. I do believe the wizard class is lacking but it's a good class for basic caster play. Even so I don't think any changes should occur based off comparison to another class. In my opinion any class changes should be based solely on if a class/spec is over performing in play styles. Ie spiritmaster LT and pet nerfs bc it was over performing in many play styles. A bad example (and I'm sorry for the ppl who have heard me use this alot recently) is something that wasn't over performing like the body cab spec nuke which was nerfed presumably because of comparing it to sm and since the similarities are "stark " a class took a nerf when the spec barely sees play in the first place.
Character List
Youtube Channel
Twitch Channel
Templates
Alb Casters
Cabalist/Sorc/Wizard/Wizard Crescendo/Wind Theurgist/Earth Theurgist 10conversion 8pierce OR 8conversion 10pierce
Hib Casters
Mentalist/Eldritch/Enchanter/Animist/Bainshee
Mid Casters
Spiritmaster/Runemaster/Runemaster 126dex no GMoV/Bonedancer/Warlock/Warlock Set
Support
Pac Healer 25CCreduc/Aug Healer/Group Shaman/Small/Solo Shaman Set/Friar Heal 25CCreduc/Cleric Heal/Warden Heal 30CCreduc/Druid Group
Hybrids
Group VW/Group Scout/*New*Group Thane/Necro Painworking
Tanks
Group Hero
2.6
374 dex = 1.14 (113.7)
446 dex = 1.13 (112.8)
2.8
392 dex = 1.12 (111.9)
446 dex = 1.13 (113.0)
i need similar aug dex to reach those caps on my warlock as on my wizard due to dex raising more per level on wizard (and most casters) than on warlock.
i'm sure your dps figures for the spec nukes don't reflect that. and they don't reflect the damage increase after the first nuke.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
ST was originally the Thane OF RA. You got BOF and SOS, so more than a fair trade.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
So you mean in a comparison with 18 less dex. WL get 10 less dex (13 teriary vs 23 2ndary) so that's really not that much.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
So its fine if 2 realms have something and the third doesn't? Yeah, sounds balanced to me.
Yeah, if you have unique advantages not replicated in the other realms as a trade-off. Trade-offs are good for balance.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I don't want mirror'd balanced characters. Thats why i stopped play WoW
Many post have been made on this topic specifically. Some classes are designed to kill others. There are counters to some. Some specs do very well against a class and do crap vs another. If there was a class that was completely dominant vs every single thing this game brings im sure 90% of the population would roll one, but it would become boring.
Exactly!! ^This^ 100%! @Ylazul was just complaining to the Mids that just because vamps and minstrils spec less for climb walls doesn't mean Mids should have to. Now he wants everything mirrored. /facepalm
Nope, I don't want mirroring. Just balance. The topic is also appropriate in an environment where Mids are taking all the oxygen in the room trying to nerf this, get that, buff this, and succeeding at an alarming rate.
My idea for Fire Wiz would be a 1000 range Line AOEDD, shoot a gout of fire that does high DPS with a delayed travel time in a line. Doesn't help them backload obliterate a single target, but would be nice for culling pets and give more options in keep sieges. The Warlock is a bit over the top so I don't think they should be made 100% the same, but that's just one idea (even though the Warlock is just copy paste of a Wizard, with tons of goodies tacked on). Maybe add one self-buff/utility skill, like an insta self cure that goes from DoT cure to DoT/Disease/NS cure on a 1 min timer.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I'm not denying that. As I have said, I have agreed with you on the Mid post about Savage climb walls, their QQ's, and them asking for everything other realms have but not wanting any of their unique abilities to go to other realms. However, you doing the same thing doesn't help matters. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
We need leverage and distraction to break Mid's stranglehold on balance discussions right now, because frankly their volume is too high, their points are not very good and I can see they have taken the game down a confused and power-creep-y path.
Without proper perspective, the frame of discussion for balance gets hijacked. I felt this topic is to the point in addressing the laughable idea that Mid is underpowered and needs anything.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Oh, I didn't think the topic at the start was wrong. You were showing 2 similar classes and showing how each performed. I am referring more to your post on the Heretic snare post in which you basically said tic's can't be brought more in line (nerf'd) until the long list of alb classes you think needed buffed get buffed OR hib/mid toons get nerf'd.
I understand your frustration at the Mid's for doing what they are, but you doing the same thing for Albion doesn't help matters. It just makes BS think they need to start mirroring every class to prevent these sorts of discussions. I hope they quit making broad changes to things on classes over all. It should be minor tweaks to classes. Focus instead on how to get more players playing.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I am going to regret saying this, but based on the winning Nate's zerg has done I would beg to differ on this. I won't act like I'm an expert on all 3 realms and what each class has vs. all the other classes on other realms, but to me it seems pretty simple. 90% of the time the realm that wins has the most #'s. When Albion loses it's because they have less people than Mid/Hib and many times that happens because Nate and Rescue can't get along. When Albion has more they win. Sure, skill plays a huge part, but overall the balance in the game is fine and honestly they need to quit making such big changes to classes overall. Let things sit awhile. BS has a tendency to overdo changes/buffs/nerfs to classes and then has to back step. The last thing we need is them trying to overhaul all classes in the game.
Agree that numbers and group composition is a huge part of the game, in terms of who wins what, but I'm talking "to-scale". Alb has significant weaknesses across the board outside of 1v1 and Stealth Zergs. This is an old issue, but Alb simply doesn't have the condensed utility of the other two realms. Originally this was somewhat made up for by specialist, oddball abilities in very specific group setups (like Necro AF debuff, Theurg Pets, Scout Range, etc) but these advantages have worn down or been homogenized. It's not game breaking, it's not something that annoys me. It's just an observation on my part, as someone who just loves game design. Honestly my main angle is trying to make every single class one that I think would be fun to play and play against.
Also agree on the latter part; I think there need to be stated design goals (where do we want to be?) principles (should realms be mirrored or not? is it fine that some viable classes have weak specs? are we doing design reviews based on rolling archetype-by-archetype basis or are we going to address pain points first?) and a standard operating procedure shared between devs and players so we know what to do going forward. How to give feedback, what kind of feedback is desired, what our place in shaping the game should be, etc. It'd be a huge time-saver if nothing else.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
you are comparing a curse/hex spec to a fire wizard ... fair enough to some degree. but a fire wizard is a superior RANGED damage dealer. you could also compare a curse/hex lock to an ice wizard. but i would consider the ice wizard a better AE damage dealer (and single target damage dealer). ranged AE damage with ice debuff (that affect pbaoe)/ other AE effects including AE slow, AE root, AE disease, superior RR 5.
curse / hex locks are imho inferior to fire or ice wizards, but they are a nice combination of both. they have chambers and they have primers that affect some spells which make me put them on par with both the wizard specs IMHO.
They would exist if they were on Alb, or had other specs that were weaker. The Fire Wizard very slightly edges out a Curselock on DPS after the second spec nuke, that is if you don't want to use Chambers for buffs/added burst.
For Ice vs Curse, the UI and the one chamber make all the difference. Chaining PBAE secures kills far better than one that can and almost always is interrupted without MOC
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
fire wizard comparison : chambers add nothing for ranged spec unless you talk about the short duration 10 % crit chance buff that means nothing at high rr. and fire wiz very slightly outdamage curse locks ? 199 vs 219 + 10% debuf at realistically the same casting speed ? i don't call that very slightly outdamaging.
i agree that the uninterrupted chamber is a good tool. but realistically, you are out of power after 6 casts and the damage is mediocre, with my ice wiz i moc and do ranged AE DD with ice debuff, ranged AE disease and then spam pbaoe for far superior damage that's extremely hard to heal. yeah both curse and ice have different advantages. ice has the advantage of superior overall damage + a brilliant rr5 for pbaoe imho and curse has the advantage of better spike damage (pbaoe chamber + pboae), and multiple short durations uninterrupted phases, that often are not long enough to kill tanks before OOP. curse also completely lacks a ranged AE option, while ice has one of the best ranged AE options.
I'd say most people don't have WP9 or anything close. And the difference in cast time is much greater than it's being made out to be, once you're past 376 or so Dex 2.6s casts reach a break point.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
my wizard has 393 dex, caps casting speed (109 dex from gear) dex, 340 (90 !! from gear ) int. (yeah, ANCIENT and bad template),
cold 48+21
639 damage, then 703 (+64) for fallow up nukes.
with 9%, not 10 % spell damage, 10 speed, 10 resist pierce, etc
RA's aug acuity 5, aug dex 6, WP 7, mom 6, moc 5 (adds nothing to this test, but 'equalizes/favours' potential in pboae between moc and uninterrupted mode, 75 % damage for 30 secs vs 65 % damage and oop in 6 casts, but more repeatable when power is available.
with sup charge buffs
my warlock has 374 dex, caps casting speed (119 from gear) dex, 362 (105 from gear) piety
curse 49 + 23 curse, (3 point advantage in skill, resulting in more damage)
674 damage
10 % damage, speed and resist pierce.
ra's aug augmented dex 5, acuity 7, mom 9, wp 9
with sup charge buffs
keep in mind that my warlock has +2 more to magic skil and 1 point more in skill (equalling higher damage for the warlock), and 14 ra points more to spend, resulting in more damage for wiz, or equalling crit chance.
with identical template and 14 more RA points to spend, wizard damage would have been significantly higher
keep in mind that my wizard would only need 5 more points in dex to reach the next, significant, 2.5 sec cap (at 398) for pbaoe, while my warlock could never reach that without LARGE sacrifices in damage.
both ranged DD's, 2.6 sec at 374 dex vs 2.8 sec at 392 dex have the SAME casting speed within range of error (see earlier post with testing by Simon)
Also assuming the same race it should be 392 vs 382 Dex unless I'm remembering stat growth rates wrong. (45, 23, 13)
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
yes the cost of moc i great, but even with that calculated in the RA setup, ice wizard ranged damage is superior
race on my chars are avalonion and frost alf.
moc + rr5 vs hex primer pboae + pbaoe chamber: repeatable uninterrupted pbaoe, providing power vs 30 sec + duration + rr 5 for extra DPS, in combination with AE ice debuff DD and AE (both arguements are situational)
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler