About Full-Tanks in 2018, something has to be done!

Juliani · November 2018

Hey guys

I think Full-Tanks (Arms,Warrior, Hero) aren't very much competitive in 2018 anymore. There isn't any other class in DAoC which has that much problems surviving. Mostly every other Class is kinda able to kite out every full tank. Sure, they are quite nice group mates, but most times nothing more than a BG-Bot with many TP's. Especially when low RR it's not possible to defeat most of your enemies. When a Hunter can easily kill a Full-Tank or most Assassins in Game, doing damage above 400 and maybe more i think something's wrong here.

There must be many more reasons you aren't seeing any more Full-Tanks outside.

I've got some ideas to improve the Full Tanks without beeing instantly OP.

#1 Give Full Tanks an Instant Taunt
#2 Give Full Tanks an Instant disease heal
#3 To counter abnormal strafing (360° Block, maybe as RA, Ultimate lvl 50 ability in shield?), yeah im not talking about the standard stuff, that fckn abusive jumping and running through, loosing LoS and getting your ass beaten without any possibility to hit back. Many players aren't able to do the same, so stop saying everyone can easily do that.

That are just some ideas, so please don't hate and maybe help to have a nice and constructive discussion here.

Anyways, something has to be done to make these Full-Tanks attractive

Tanky · November 2018

Yup I agree

Tyrantanic · November 2018

#1 Heavy tanks already have an instant taunt shout, albeit with limited range.
#2 Heavy tanks have Rampage that make them immune to debuffs (not sure if disease counts).
#3 Every melee class faces this problem. I honestly do not solo on melee classes for this reason since I have never gotten the timing down.

Heavy tanks are solid over all, imo.

Juliani · November 2018

#1 it looks like it does not affect realm enemies, just NPC's
#2 It does not counter disease, so every kind of CC affects you with or without Rampage
#3 Any other "Tank" is able to survive a fight in form of an instant slow/snare, charging away, static, ichor for example. The general possibility to reset a fight. I think maybe the Warrior is the only one able to survive such things with Testudo, but, you have to be at least RR5

Ylazul · November 2018

Maybe buff XBow and Thrown to a point where they're somewhat useful

Armagedden · November 2018

Tanky wrote: »

Yup I agree

second. @Juliani You bring up some great points and have some wonderful insight... Let's hope they listen...

Ewer · November 2018

Armsmen need something. They are just painfully boring at the moment. Compared to the other heavy tanks they are pretty lackluster.

Cartoan · November 2018

Juliani

Anyways, something has to be done to make these Full-Tanks attractive

Give 'em Vanish.

RonELuvv · November 2018

As a ranger I have to say that warriors/armsman are tough as hell on solo fights and I personally don't see a need to buff them more. They are used in groups quite often and when played well do fine solo.

BurkleyRIP · November 2018

As a ranger you can kite them forever though

RonELuvv · November 2018

@BurkleyRIP - Where? There is almost zero places in wide open that encourage kiting at the level you talk about. There is LOS breaks in all the places a person would solo. Also, they can engage me and then I have a couple shots (on long reuse timers) that can bypass his shield and a poison shot that will barely scratch them. You are right though. IF a tank is in the wide open areas (which nobody is ever at), and IF they are dumb enough to keep chasing me, and IF they don't engage then I could kite and take 20 minutes to kill a tank in the hopes that nobody else comes along in the meantime and adds in. Oh, and I forgot to add in things like snapshot on armsman or charges that can interrupt or snare me.

Trust me, I am a good player on ranger and warriors amd armsman beat me FAR more often then I beat them. I also see full tanks do just fine in the solo game against most other classes. As far as how they do vs sins, welcome to the club. Sins are probably the toughest class overall in game right now from a solo perspective.

BurkleyRIP · November 2018

I’ve been beat by you plenty of times. I’m a terrible soloer, but yeah. Sins are so abundant and at the top

RonELuvv · November 2018

Oh, I have beat some full tanks on occasion, but I certainly lose more often then I win.

Sleepwell · November 2018

I'd have to agree more with @BurkleyRIP here @RonELuvv . You and i have theory crafted this a lot. Our play styles vary immensely and i could absolutely say i would probably do better vs a full tank over you (in their current state). You're gonna go toe to toe with whoever you fight WAYYYY more than i would. I m gonna kite until i turn blue in the face. I would be more likely to die to adds or running into a zone wall and the tank finally chasing me down rather than straight up getting melee'd down. How often do you reset the fight and kite.. reset and kite vs 2 or 3 bow shots and then whipping out the blades?

I'm not suggesting buff or no buff... but given this scenario, i'd much rather fight a full tank over most classes.

Amp_Phetamine · November 2018

Heavy tanks aren't horrible they're just incredibly difficult to solo on/need to be played extremely well. You can't chase after kiters, assassins in general are incredibly difficult to manage on heavy's, you have to keep everything in close quarters and manage LoS.

I've found myself solo'ing far less recently than previously.

I can't speak for warriors and hero's; however, I would like to see a change to the armsmans rr5. The -10% penalty following cool down of the ability either needs to be removed or the block/parry function needs to be 360 degrees.

It's nearly useless against 1v2+ or well played assassins that can utilize host/client lag to slingshot around you.

I've stated before that as far as Armsmen go, plate armor is hardly anything to flex about anymore. It's very useful on Pally's because they get an AF buff (especially if they spec 25% buff duration).

The taunt we receive is a cone PvE taunt on a very short range and is not effective against enemy players.

Fury and Rampage are very good abilities but Rampage has its bugs. It does not work against disease or de-haste spells (champion debuff for example).

The other downside to Armsmen is RR (and I know this is true to every class and the other heavy tanks but for Armsmen in general it's even more so) is critically important due to our requirement of subspecc'ing.

For instance - My spec is 50pole, 31 (+21) slash, 42 shield, 27 parry. Obviously if I was lower realm rank or my +bonus was less I'd need to spec more points into slash and either drop my parry or drop my polearm spec in order to reduce the WS loss I'd receive by not having a total baseline slash spec of (+51).

This means I need to spend more points into Mastery of Block and Mastery of Parry to balance out my defenses.

Like I previously stated, Armsmen and Heavy Tanks in general aren't horrible classes to play but they certainly aren't stars in the game either.

I won't compare the Armsmen to the Hero and Warrior because I don't want homogenization amongst the three heavy tanks, I like that their are differences (Warrior - higher WS table and no need to double/spec, Hero's - morph and ability to utilize 2 damage types in LW, Armsman - plate armor) what I will say is that at least in respect amongst heavy tanks I'd rank them as Warrior>>>Hero>Armsmen with Hero's taking a slight edge over Arms due to stag morph.

Edit: I would also like some variation in weapon choice for Albion. Specifically Polearm. Thrust (by far) has the superior weapon selection for Polearms in comparison to slash and especially in comparison to Crush.

1. Hallowed Lance (Thrust - 6.0 Speed)
2. Ancient Pike (Thrust - 6.0 Speed)
3. Frostbite (Thrust - 6.0 Speed)

Three polearms introduced "recently" - All three thrust.

Not the biggest issue in the world but would make slash/crush a bit more worthwhile.

Cartoan · November 2018

Let's just settle this right now. Taunt shout is worthless.

Juliani · November 2018

Cartoan wrote: »

Let's just settle this right now. Taunt shout is worthless.

Yup!

RonELuvv · November 2018

Sleepwell wrote: »

I'd have to agree more with @BurkleyRIP here @RonELuvv . You and i have theory crafted this a lot. Our play styles vary immensely and i could absolutely say i would probably do better vs a full tank over you (in their current state). You're gonna go toe to toe with whoever you fight WAYYYY more than i would. I m gonna kite until i turn blue in the face. I would be more likely to die to adds or running into a zone wall and the tank finally chasing me down rather than straight up getting melee'd down. How often do you reset the fight and kite.. reset and kite vs 2 or 3 bow shots and then whipping out the blades?

I'm not suggesting buff or no buff... but given this scenario, i'd much rather fight a full tank over most classes.

True, but its alot different as a hunter vs a ranger. You have a pet that can keep hitting as you are kiting. As a ranger if I'm kiting then no dmg is being done. I don't kite alot, but once again that is because the places where there is good solo action are not kite friendly areas. On heavy tanks my usual style is open with crit shot, use some regular shots, use pb shot, go into mele, when pb shot comes back up use FZ, kite back, use power shot, and try and get another shot in before using PB shot. Even in that limited kiting, about half the time the tank when FZ'd just goes to the nearest LoS break and starts healing themselves. The poison shot would work when they engage, and does for some people, but it doesn't do much dmg at all. Having a poison tick them at 60-80 dmg on a heavy tank is like trying to kill them with a paper cut. Also, most heavy tanks (as @Amp_Phetamine stated) are not going to chase a ranged stealther in the wide open area. They are going to break LOS and make you have to come back and come to them.

I also would love to point out that while heavy tanks are maybe not at the top of the solo food chain, they are much more "groupable" then many higher rated solo toons. Not every class in the game is going to be great at solo, small man, AND group/zerg fights. Most toons are better at one play style and either bad at another or need a serious respec to be good at another style.

All I was saying is that I don't think heavy tanks need a "buff" per se. They are used and needed in most groups. They do good against alot of classes solo (not all, but most). Saying they need a buff because hunters and sin's can kill them is kind of over-simplifying the problem. As you stated in our comments about shaman. Paper, Rock, Scissors. Full tanks (just like all others) has some bad matchups. It happens to all of us.

skeetz · November 2018

Part of the problem is everything is so hard to kill now...... You used to have to fear being slammed and seeing that pole, or spear or 2hander come out, now its like meh ill live and probably come out of slam with around the same life lol .

Sleepwell · November 2018

RonELuvv wrote: »

Sleepwell wrote: »

I'd have to agree more with @BurkleyRIP here @RonELuvv . You and i have theory crafted this a lot. Our play styles vary immensely and i could absolutely say i would probably do better vs a full tank over you (in their current state). You're gonna go toe to toe with whoever you fight WAYYYY more than i would. I m gonna kite until i turn blue in the face. I would be more likely to die to adds or running into a zone wall and the tank finally chasing me down rather than straight up getting melee'd down. How often do you reset the fight and kite.. reset and kite vs 2 or 3 bow shots and then whipping out the blades?

I'm not suggesting buff or no buff... but given this scenario, i'd much rather fight a full tank over most classes.

True, but its alot different as a hunter vs a ranger. You have a pet that can keep hitting as you are kiting. As a ranger if I'm kiting then no dmg is being done. I don't kite alot, but once again that is because the places where there is good solo action are not kite friendly areas. On heavy tanks my usual style is open with crit shot, use some regular shots, use pb shot, go into mele, when pb shot comes back up use FZ, kite back, use power shot, and try and get another shot in before using PB shot. Even in that limited kiting that I do about half the time the tank when FZ'd just goes to the nearest LoS break and starts healing themselves. The poison shot would work when they engage, and does for some people, but it doesn't do much dmg at all. Having a poison tick them at 60-80 dmg on a heavy tank is like trying to kill them with a paper cut. Also, most heavy tanks (as @Amp_Phetamine stated) are not going to chase a ranged stealther in the wide open area. They are going to break LOS and make you have to come back and come to them.

I also would love to point out that while heavy tanks are maybe not at the top of the solo food chain, they are much more "groupable" then many higher rated solo toons. Not every class in the game is going to be great at solo, small man, AND group/zerg fights. Most toons are better at one play style and either bad at another or need a serious respec to be good at another style.

All I was saying is that I don't think heavy tanks need a "buff" per se. They are used and needed in most groups. They do good against alot of classes solo (not all, but most). Saying they need a buff because hunters and sin's can kill them is kind of over-simplifying the problem. As you stated in our comments about shaman. Paper, Rock, Scissors. Full tanks (just like all others) has some bad matchups. It happens to all of us.

true and not true. I play my ranger precisely how i play my hunter (albeit we both know i rarely play my ranger). I would never go toe to toe with a tank on either. You would. You're veryadept at getting the side stun off and you typically shot twice at most then melee. No way a ranger should be able to take a heavy tank in straight melee imho. Does it happen?, im sure it does. I dont think it should be the norm though. The rare ocassion i have solod specifically and shot a heavy tank, i can usually tell very very early if i have a chance. More often than not i would simply kite away and reset and hope the hunk of walking metal would leave the area.

As far as a "buff" per say. I can't really give a good answer. I don't actively play a heavy tank solo or grouped. Just saying i can see both perspectives.

RonELuvv · November 2018

skeetz wrote: »

Part of the problem is everything is so hard to kill now...... You used to have to fear being slammed and seeing that pole, or spear or 2hander come out, now its like meh ill live and probably come out of slam with around the same life lol .

Very true.

RonELuvv · November 2018

Sleepwell wrote: »

true and not true. I play my ranger precisely how i play my hunter (albeit we both know i rarely play my ranger). I would never go toe to toe with a tank on either. You would. You're veryadept at getting the side stun off and you typically shot twice at most then melee. No way a ranger should be able to take a heavy tank in straight melee imho. Does it happen?, im sure it does. I dont think it should be the norm though. The rare ocassion i have solod specifically and shot a heavy tank, i can usually tell very very early if i have a chance. More often than not i would simply kite away and reset and hope the hunk of walking metal would leave the area.

Oh, agreed 100%!! If I kite it normally ends in me going one direction and them going the other. I normally try to avoid heavy tanks if possible. Occasionally I feel a lil froggy and will engage one on purpose. I have beat them, but when I do its because I have used some form of "kiting" or at the very least used FZ/root style and was able to use my bow a couple of times. The only times I have killed a heavy tank going 90% mele is if that tank decided to go 2h the whole time, and even then its not often that I can stand toe to toe with them and kill them. As far as sin's go, we all know that a well played sin will put a hurting on almost all classes in game.

Like I said above, I lose way more than I win vs heavy tanks. I still stand by my point to the OP that heavy tanks don't need a "buff" of any sort. They are powerful classes in their own right even though a few classes might give them trouble. If a hunter is attacking you as a heavy tank my advice would be don't chase them. Break LOS, kill the pet, and then make that hunter come back and engage you. Chances are that hunter will leave or not re-engage. Same goes for ranger/scout. If a heavy tank allows himself to be kited out then that is the heavy tanks fault.

Edit: Depending on what happened with Arms RR5 they could use a buff on that. Still not for sure how that was changed or if it was. I have just heard others complain about it.

Amp_Phetamine · November 2018

RonELuvv wrote: »

Sleepwell wrote: »

I'd have to agree more with @BurkleyRIP here @RonELuvv . You and i have theory crafted this a lot. Our play styles vary immensely and i could absolutely say i would probably do better vs a full tank over you (in their current state). You're gonna go toe to toe with whoever you fight WAYYYY more than i would. I m gonna kite until i turn blue in the face. I would be more likely to die to adds or running into a zone wall and the tank finally chasing me down rather than straight up getting melee'd down. How often do you reset the fight and kite.. reset and kite vs 2 or 3 bow shots and then whipping out the blades?

I'm not suggesting buff or no buff... but given this scenario, i'd much rather fight a full tank over most classes.

True, but its alot different as a hunter vs a ranger. You have a pet that can keep hitting as you are kiting. As a ranger if I'm kiting then no dmg is being done. I don't kite alot, but once again that is because the places where there is good solo action are not kite friendly areas. On heavy tanks my usual style is open with crit shot, use some regular shots, use pb shot, go into mele, when pb shot comes back up use FZ, kite back, use power shot, and try and get another shot in before using PB shot. Even in that limited kiting that I do about half the time the tank when FZ'd just goes to the nearest LoS break and starts healing themselves. The poison shot would work when they engage, and does for some people, but it doesn't do much dmg at all. Having a poison tick them at 60-80 dmg on a heavy tank is like trying to kill them with a paper cut. Also, most heavy tanks (as @Amp_Phetamine stated) are not going to chase a ranged stealther in the wide open area. They are going to break LOS and make you have to come back and come to them.

I also would love to point out that while heavy tanks are maybe not at the top of the solo food chain, they are much more "groupable" then many higher rated solo toons. Not every class in the game is going to be great at solo, small man, AND group/zerg fights. Most toons are better at one play style and either bad at another or need a serious respec to be good at another style.

All I was saying is that I don't think heavy tanks need a "buff" per se. They are used and needed in most groups. They do good against alot of classes solo (not all, but most). Saying they need a buff because hunters and sin's can kill them is kind of over-simplifying the problem. As you stated in our comments about shaman. Paper, Rock, Scissors. Full tanks (just like all others) has some bad matchups. It happens to all of us.

+1

I agree. I don't walk out expecting to kill everything within melee dps of my Armsmen, but the meta has certainly changed. Any assassin capable of slingshotting/dancing has the potential to kill me, relatively easily may I add. Most light tanks can easily out damage me, berserkers and savages being the most difficult to kill (regardless of what Muylae thinks about his savage). Anyone capable of efficient kiting can beat me (well played VW's, Shamans, rarely do I lose to archers, bdancers cause lol, enchanters are tough but require moc, SM's) - just to name a few.

But like most people have experienced as well. My dps in general hasn't changed much (nerf of anytime versus increase in positionals kinda balances out - kinda), but the survivability has drastically increased.

I think that's the issue Heavies have been experiencing. Enemy players just have too much survivability compared to our DPS output.

Don't get me wrong, being able to hit for 875 capped and crit for potentially 1,000+ dps is quite nice (max dps I can put out), but It doesn't mean anything if I can't hit my target (primarily due to strafing/dancing/poisons).

Edit: As far as buffing heavies, I can't think of anything we really need (although I would like to see the arms rr5 penalty removed and/or keep the penalty but make it a 360 degree block/parry).

Sleepwell · November 2018

I think the OP is suggesting a way to make a class playable solo by possibly a diff spec (RA's etc?). I know you can't please everyone, but i can see where someone who enjoys playing a particular toon would like the opportunity to spec as such. That may be opening that door though... they want it all.. and not willing to give up 50 weapon, 42 shield in order to spec solo hahaha...

RonELuvv · November 2018

I had a question on snapshot @Amp_Phetamine... What changed on that for armsmen? Wasn't that their RR5 at one point? I have heard other armsmen say it should be free or be changed, but can you elaborate on that? I know its a pretty sick ability, but I don't fight enough armsmen on a consistent basis to know for sure how it works now. I know when I played on Vold and on old classic (ToA and prior) that the crossbow shooting while moving was huge to prevent ranged stealthers or casters from hitting you while you closed the gap, but apparently this has been changed in some way.

Also, to add to your post, I bet shamans are a pain with those dots, disease, and I also bet a VW would be a pain since they can just root you, kite, then fill back up with that life tap.

RonELuvv · November 2018

Sleepwell wrote: »

I think the OP is suggesting a way to make a class playable solo by possibly a diff spec (RA's etc?). I know you can't please everyone, but i can see where someone who enjoys playing a particular toon would like the opportunity to spec as such. That may be opening that door though... they want it all.. and not willing to give up 50 weapon, 42 shield in order to spec solo hahaha...

My butthole always puckers up a lil bit when I hear about "buffing" up toons because many times it ends up in an over the top buff that makes another class too powerful. I know I see many heavy tanks have success in the solo game when i'm out in the areas that most solo's play at.

RonELuvv · November 2018

To answer my own question posted to @Amp_Phetamine, am I reading that right on Armsman that you have to spec 25 crossbow to get snapshot? Am I right that it used to be your RR5? I see now you get Soliders Citadel as your RR5. If that is the case then I would agree that they either need to really lower the 25 spec in xbow to get snapshot or even make it free.

Amp_Phetamine · November 2018

RonELuvv wrote: »

I had a question on snapshot @Amp_Phetamine... What changed on that for armsmen? Wasn't that their RR5 at one point? I have heard other armsmen say it should be free or be changed, but can you elaborate on that? I know its a pretty sick ability, but I don't fight enough armsmen on a consistent basis to know for sure how it works now. I know when I played on Vold and on old classic (ToA and prior) that the crossbow shooting while moving was huge to prevent ranged stealthers or casters from hitting you while you closed the gap, but apparently this has been changed in some way.

Also, to add to your post, I bet shamans are a pain with those dots, disease, and I also bet a VW would be a pain since they can just root you, kite, then fill back up with that life tap.

It used to be the rr5. They moved it to 25 crossbow. It's still kind of viable, if you use a labby xbow with the 125 dot it can be pretty effective. The only problem is nearly all heavies (with some variance) are kind of button holed into a 50 2H/Pole or 44 2H/Pole - 42 shield - composite weapon - rest parry and doesn't leave us much room to spec 25 levels into crossbow to obtain it.

Of course I could get snapshot and keep 50 pole/42 shield/31 wep and just eliminate my parry line but it'd be primarily for group/zerg play.

What'd I'd honestly like to see is a slight upgrade in plate armor effectiveness for Armsman. I think, currently, it offers 3.2% better absorption compared to chain? but with all of the poisons and debuffs out there is hardly noticeable.

Amp_Phetamine · November 2018

RonELuvv wrote: »

Sleepwell wrote: »

I think the OP is suggesting a way to make a class playable solo by possibly a diff spec (RA's etc?). I know you can't please everyone, but i can see where someone who enjoys playing a particular toon would like the opportunity to spec as such. That may be opening that door though... they want it all.. and not willing to give up 50 weapon, 42 shield in order to spec solo hahaha...

My butthole always puckers up a lil bit when I hear about "buffing" up toons because many times it ends up in an over the top buff that makes another class too powerful. I know I see many heavy tanks have success in the solo game when i'm out in the areas that most solo's play at.

Yeah I wouldn't want a buff or new ability at all (obviously I'd kill to go back to ToA days and 3 hitting everything) but it's a slippery slope and causes more problems then needed. Only thing I'd like to see is the dust blown off a bit.

Amp_Phetamine · November 2018

RonELuvv wrote: »

To answer my own question posted to @Amp_Phetamine, am I reading that right on Armsman that you have to spec 25 crossbow to get snapshot? Am I right that it used to be your RR5? I see now you get Soliders Citadel as your RR5. If that is the case then I would agree that they either need to really lower the 25 spec in xbow to get snapshot or even make it free.

That's correct.

Soldiers citadel is nice if you're fighting someone that is just /stuck to you. It's counterable by slingshotting/dancing and getting positional styles off, plus you have to deal with the -10% block/parry penalty afterwards. Always confused me why that penalty ever existed in the first place. I'd trade SC for Tetsudo any day.

RonELuvv · November 2018

Amp_Phetamine wrote: »

RonELuvv wrote: »

To answer my own question posted to @Amp_Phetamine, am I reading that right on Armsman that you have to spec 25 crossbow to get snapshot? Am I right that it used to be your RR5? I see now you get Soliders Citadel as your RR5. If that is the case then I would agree that they either need to really lower the 25 spec in xbow to get snapshot or even make it free.

That's correct.

Soldiers citadel is nice if you're fighting someone that is just /stuck to you. It's counterable by slingshotting/dancing and getting positional styles off, plus you have to deal with the -10% block/parry penalty afterwards. Always confused me why that penalty ever existed in the first place. I'd trade SC for Tetsudo any day.

Yah, that is odd for a RR5. I remember the ranger RR5 used to have a penalty as well which was always odd. RR5's shouldn't have a penalty associated with it.

Sleepwell · November 2018

Dont get Kat started hahahaha...

Hunter penalty.. use rr5, cannot use bow...

I agree with your sentiment, but they make changes and we adapt.. just how it is

Brut · November 2018

The problem which has been mentioned in this thread is not really the armsman though I agree plate is not what it was and that the rr5 not good.
The main problem is the uses and ablatives and heal procs used by other toons.
It all went down after the ruined keep patch before that patch you could close on a cloth wearing toon and slam and drop it.
Now you close you slam and whiffle for about a minute before you are debuff assisted down.
It’s a combination of excessive healing power and use items I can’t see it changing any time soon.

RonELuvv · November 2018

Brut wrote: »

The problem which has been mentioned in this thread is not really the armsman though I agree plate is not what it was and that the rr5 not good.
The main problem is the uses and ablatives and heal procs used by other toons.
It all went down after the ruined keep patch before that patch you could close on a cloth wearing toon and slam and drop it.
Now you close you slam and whiffle for about a minute before you are debuff assisted down.
It’s a combination of excessive healing power and use items I can’t see it changing any time soon.

I agree on this, but that effects all toons, not just heavy tanks. Hopefully some of the changes they have put on the HoT's, heal procs, and ip charge will alleviate this a little bit.

About Full-Tanks in 2018, something has to be done!

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