RM with ST would give Mids ST on 2 classes with AOE dmg in a realm that is alone with AOE stun.
Bad Idea
If its really necessary to please the crowd and add a second ST for mids (giving them 3 options for AOE stuns) it should go to a healer that is specced minimum 40 in Aug
That would work, but statistically adding it to another class would have more or less the same effect. The fact that Mids will whine about it is not a reason to forever put shackles on Broadsword's hands.
@Vrisslar since that change Animists pets can now move, and they have all sorts of abilities to toss onto their pets depending on spec. Likewise, PVE rarely revolves around Focus Pull anymore, other than in situations where you're doing it to masses of mobs for PL, in which case a single target taunt is not all that meaningful. Cabs would prefer something else, I'm sure. Bonedancer pets were also buffed.
And what does all this have to do with anything ?
Some of us that mainly play support, still like to be able to focus pull.
What Animist, BD and Necro can do, dont really have anything to do with the 3 old main pet classes.
If pet taunt on Caba is such a minor thing that caba would rather have something else, then why so many excuses for not returning it to all 3 pet classes instead of only 1
Its a PvE thing that dosnt affect class balance in RvR, why shouldnt it be returned to all.
But if that how things are done then lets remove all mess from bard sorc and healer, then 1 month later return it to only bard and call it realm unique, cause other classes on mid and alb got AoE mess with different duration so all should be fine.
Anyway carol already answered it in the grabbag so it can end here.
@Vrisslar I will always argue against "they get X so so should we". Mid isn't entitled to a single thing just because Alb gets it. If there is a key weakness that needs addressing, it should be addressed. This is why no one complained when Mid got Call of 1k Storms on Thane and Valk, we knew what issue was being dealt with and why.
@Gavner rather the main point for Alb was that ST doesn't suit Friars that much, and when Mid asked for a second class the obvious answer was that you have AOE Stun. There's no reason at all to hand out an RA to Mids just because Albs got one.
There is a huge difference. Mids AoE stunn is same niche ability as bolt-range mezz, base lifetap, base stunn on hib casters, instant amnesia, and the list could go on forever. RAs however totally different, and arguably AoE stunn is much weaker now, then it was years ago, lots of high RRs around, lots of DET+Stoic classes etc..
I mean, it shouldn't be equal, like Druid had Grp purge back then right? Also, remove IP from Hero, because it's much stronger with moose then other realms..
I mean come on, im on a side that 1/1/1 is more then enough for ST, since it's too powerful of an RA, also agree I wouldn't give it to RM, but rather a much less represented class in zergs, and some nerf on lower specs of ST would be great, still, this AoE stunn argument on an RA is so weak, I mean since around I never saw a complain that thanes ST + AoE stunn wiping other realm's zergs..
Just nerf ST, give it to a worse mid class, or simply reset 1/1/1.
@Vrisslar I will always argue against "they get X so so should we". Mid isn't entitled to a single thing just because Alb gets it. If there is a key weakness that needs addressing, it should be addressed. This is why no one complained when Mid got Call of 1k Storms on Thane and Valk, we knew what issue was being dealt with and why.
This isnt like they get x so should we.
This is they removed this from 3 classes that didnt really make much sense, then returned it to 1 but not the other 2.
If there was a reasons to remove it from 3 classes that are close to identical, then when the reason for the removal from 1 class isnt there anymore then that reason shouldnt be there for any of the other 2 classes......its a PvE ability, thats just nice and fun to have, nothing else.
Funny how you single out mid vs alb, while im talking all 3 pet classes.
Anyway lets agree to disagree about this mighty gamebreaking PvE fun ability.
@Vrisslar I will always argue against "they get X so so should we". Mid isn't entitled to a single thing just because Alb gets it. If there is a key weakness that needs addressing, it should be addressed. This is why no one complained when Mid got Call of 1k Storms on Thane and Valk, we knew what issue was being dealt with and why.
But Alb should get more ST, because Mid have AoE stunn right? :P "they get X so so should we" or rather "they get AoE, so we should get ST"
@Vrisslar I will always argue against "they get X so so should we". Mid isn't entitled to a single thing just because Alb gets it. If there is a key weakness that needs addressing, it should be addressed. This is why no one complained when Mid got Call of 1k Storms on Thane and Valk, we knew what issue was being dealt with and why.
But Alb should get more ST, because Mid have AoE stunn right? :P "they get X so so should we" or rather "they get AoE, so we should get ST"
Alb got another ST because Friars are the least optimal class to put it on. That and Alb, generally, has the worst stuns. AE Stun and Baseline Caster stun are game-changers in keeps, Minstrel stun is nice in stealth groups when you want to kill off one guy that's running away, and that's about it.
Long story short, BSword saw a need and they changed it, and then Mids started crying. Having it on one class on each realm is also fine, but Paladins and Friars sort of compete for the same spots.
AE Stun is not really niche at all and Mid has plenty of other advantages that stack up to Bolt Range mez.
@Vrisslar I will always argue against "they get X so so should we". Mid isn't entitled to a single thing just because Alb gets it. If there is a key weakness that needs addressing, it should be addressed. This is why no one complained when Mid got Call of 1k Storms on Thane and Valk, we knew what issue was being dealt with and why.
But Alb should get more ST, because Mid have AoE stunn right? :P "they get X so so should we" or rather "they get AoE, so we should get ST"
Its perfectly fine Caba gets PBAE like SM and Chanter, but only caba are allowed to have taunt returned.
@Vrisslar I will always argue against "they get X so so should we". Mid isn't entitled to a single thing just because Alb gets it. If there is a key weakness that needs addressing, it should be addressed. This is why no one complained when Mid got Call of 1k Storms on Thane and Valk, we knew what issue was being dealt with and why.
But Alb should get more ST, because Mid have AoE stunn right? :P "they get X so so should we" or rather "they get AoE, so we should get ST"
Its perfectly fine Caba gets PBAE like SM and Chanter, but only caba are allowed to have taunt returned.
You have this backwards. Cabalists got PBAE because Mid had 2 PBAE classes and Hib had 3, plus FAE, plus Animist Verd PBAE, plus AOE bolt, plus two 170+ delve AOE DDs, and ranged AOE on literally every single caster class. And Ice Wizards have been the worst PBAE class for 15 out of 17 years, and are still the worst at PBAEing itself. Alb still has the worst AE potential and has had the worst AE potential for the entire history of the game, but you are begrudging them this one change. This just goes to show how deep Mid's sense of entitlement runs.
You are good at playing with emotions and words. There is nothing special about "having something returned". No pet class was ever entitled to taunt, which Mythic added to flesh out pet classes, but Cabs didn't have it (via a style) and now they're getting one via a proc.
So really you're just twisting words to complain about Albs getting boosts in places where they are and always have been the weakest.
You have this backwards. Cabalists got PBAE because Mid had 2 PBAE classes and Hib had 3, plus FAE, plus Animist Verd PBAE, plus AOE bolt, plus two 170+ delve AOE DDs, and ranged AOE on literally every single caster class. And Ice Wizards have been the worst PBAE class for 15 out of 17 years, and are still the worst at PBAEing itself. Alb still has the worst AE potential and has had the worst AE potential for the entire history of the game, but you are begrudging them this one change. This just goes to show how deep Mid's sense of entitlement runs.
@Ylazul He just pointing out that your basic principles only goes like "if alb gets something its fair because they been week on those areas", but if any other realm get's something then "just because other realms have it, they shouldn't!"
Stated many times by both of us, regardless where we play, we still against RM getting the ST, or even any realm getting more ST then it's absolutely necessary as it's too powerful atm. Solution also should be nerfing this ability a bit.
Then you both missed my point. My point was that changes should come as they address weaknesses and legitimate complaints. Alb's AOE is weak and continues to be weak, and Cab PBAE was added to help alleviate this weakness. Is Mid's stun and AOE stun also weak? No, even with 1 ST class they reign supreme because of AOE Stun.
We shouldn't be cherry picking, ST is an AOE stun issue first and a RA balance issue second. Mids are just using rhetoric to force the issue, as they always have.
Metaphorically it's like a millionaire moaning about the government handing some cripples a sack of potatoes to barter for crutches. Even with ST, Alb is the weakest at stun, at AE Stun, and what it facilitates - AE nukes and bombing.
This just goes to show how deep Mid's sense of entitlement runs.
ah so im a Mid ? lol wrong guess try again, but i guess thats why im saying ST on RM is a bad idea, its the evil mid person out to get albs....
You are the one that keeps making this about alb vs mid, caba vs SM intercept, caba vs animist and BD.
Im pretty sure i been talking all 3 orignal pet classes all the way, but hey.
You cant really compare 3 clases having something taken away, then 1 gets it returned vs. classes wanting abilities they never had before because other classes got it.
Then you both missed my point. My point was that changes should come as they address weaknesses and legitimate complaints. Alb's AOE is weak and continues to be weak, and Cab PBAE was added to help alleviate this weakness. Is Mid's stun and AOE stun also weak? No, even with 1 ST class they reign supreme because of AOE Stun.
We shouldn't be cherry picking, ST is an AOE stun issue first and a RA balance issue second. Mids are just using rhetoric to force the issue, as they always have.
Im pretty sure a PvE taunt isnt really a strength or a weakness, its just nice to have.
I havent demanded that SM or chanter got taunt back, i have just been asking broadsword why things was done as they are and carol answered that in the grabbag like i told you earlier:
Anyway carol already answered it in the grabbag so it can end here.
Why you go slightly crazy about a simple question about a PvE taunt that dosnt affect anything in RvR and going on about Mid entitlement, its a question and it was answered....chill dude lol.
This whole thing was precipitated by Mids whining about Alb getting ST on a second class. And again, with taunt, I'm arguing against that same rationale, not what actually happened. It is good that Carol explained the change, but once again there's no reason why Hib or Mid should get something just because Alb did. Just because everyone lost something, it doesn't mean all are entitled to have it back once one of the three has it returned. That's just rhetoric, especially when so many other changes were put in place.
This isn't personal but Mids whining has historically made game balance worse on flimsy grounds.
Talking about fairness in the context of posting 10 times not to give a PvE ability to hibs and mids, because..? Lol, I am out.
Yes. Give Mids an inch, they'll take a mile. This isn't referring to you in particular, but just look at that thread where the addition to Minstrels was first announced. Nothing but Mids whining and claiming, as they have for the last 17 years, that the "devs play Alb". I'm just setting my position in principle. Buff where buffs are needed, and ignore cherry-picking, emotional appeals, rhetoric and other poor arguments.
If you think Mid is too weak in Stuns or AOE stuns or bomb capabilities, please make your case. Otherwise, there is no reason why Mid needs a 2nd ST.
If BSword was working with convincing reasons to give Alb 2 STs, then they should stick with that thinking and not be swayed by rhetoric. Personally, I don't think it's a big deal either way, but we need to set standards for how balance discussions go moving forward. Yes, I'd even prefer a niche AE Stun in Smite over ST on Heretics, but that's me, and not entirely the point anyway.
Your way:
Any buffs Albs gets is fair.
Other realms just whine and OP.
No issue m8, just don't try to say u don't have bias. :P
"Alb still has the worst AE potential and has had the worst AE potential for the entire history of the game"
Yeah I am pretty sure those pesky Thane AoE's with a few RMs speccing for AoE is much better then Heretic's tons of focus, or wizards AoE.
We had no freaking issue with Cabbys PB, nor Ice wizards new abilities added few years ago, yet u sell it like theres 200 PB specced Elds, and AoE Bainshees running around raping people. SMs also wasn't really specced into PB, but rather warlocks.
Actually AoE is pretty much fine on all realm right now.
So really you're just twisting words to complain about Albs getting boosts in places where they are and always have been the weakest.
Not sure where i am complaining about anything, since when is asking questions about a thing complaining.
If it did come out like that it wasnt the intention. ( English isnt my primary language, probably easy to spot :P )
Just because everyone lost something, it doesn't mean all are entitled to have it back once one of the three has it returned. That's just rhetoric, especially when so many other changes were put in place.
So just because some have lots of AoE dosnt mean all are entitled to it too ? Its Mid entitlement right ?
You have this backwards. Cabalists got PBAE because Mid had 2 PBAE classes and Hib had 3, plus FAE, plus Animist Verd PBAE, plus AOE bolt, plus two 170+ delve AOE DDs, and ranged AOE on literally every single caster class. And Ice Wizards have been the worst PBAE class for 15 out of 17 years, and are still the worst at PBAEing itself. Alb still has the worst AE potential and has had the worst AE potential for the entire history of the game, but you are begrudging them this one change. This just goes to show how deep Mid's sense of entitlement runs.
Pet taunt is a PvE ability imo atleast, no matter what realm we are talking about all should have equal access to fun, so i still enjoy visiting old places and nameds across all realms and farming them with focus like i did many years ago, because i find it fun even tho the rewards thise days are junk.
Sure i would like old caba / SM / chanter pets back and i would surely enjoy having the old necro back.
Im not sure how my PvE fun and question about it suddenly became a realm imbalance compareable to ST in RvR or lack of AoE.
This whole thing was precipitated by Mids whining about Alb getting ST on a second class.
This isn't personal but Mids whining has historically made game balance worse on flimsy grounds.
Im not a Mid main and i dont agree with adding ST to Minstrel, tic, RM or anything. So because i dont agree with albs getting ST im a whiny Mid ?
That's precisely wrong and I agree with you on several points and proposals. One non-charge hybrid per realm? Sure, why not, it's not a huge deal. But I think I was succinct when I said Mids whining about Albs getting more stun was like a millionaire begrudging a homeless cripple getting a bag of potatoes.
"Yeah I am pretty sure those pesky Thane AoE's with a few RMs speccing for AoE is much better then Heretic's tons of focus, or wizards AoE."
RMs get the same AOE that Wizard's do, except their debuff AE nuke is also paired with their stronger line, which also happens to be one of Mid's designated debuff nuke damage types (Cold). BDs get AOE and Totems, Warlocks get PBAOE (and plate absorb and primers and uninterruptible casts). SMs have PBAOE and AOE Tap. Thane AOE is just the icing on top. Not to mention Mid AOE has better support and class setup to facilitate it, AE Stun being just one among the many.
Keep in mind things were much more imbalanced before Cab got PBAE and AE. Yes, Heretics are the one saving grace, in fact probably the only thing that keeps Alb from being a complete joke in zerg vs zerg.
@Vrisslar the way you've been coming in in support of Xyorman et al's position has made it seem like it. Carol did explain the taunt change as you said.
Again, your argument initially was that it should be given to SM and Chanters because Cabs got it. I'm just saying, that's not a good argument
@Vrisslar it was the one on SM/Cabs, where you did argue DZ and NS were better than what Dark SMs got. But I I just want to stick to arguments for game changes on their merits alone - for the class/spec in question and considering how well they fit into their respective realms.
You were trying to get Cabs nerfed along with SM, essentially, based on "if Mids get nerfed then Albs should to" as far as I can see. This is tacit support of Mid complaints, as exemplified my Xyorman's comments.
Really, not directed at you, but we've just seen enough of that. We're all just so tired of Mids demanding every little thing Alb and sometimes Hib has be handed to them.
I was asking for the reason, i was not trying to get anything nerfed lol.
If you read the later post in the topic, just like my initial post here, i was questioning the reason behind nerfing the dps potential of a spec nuke, instead of nerfing the intercept pet more or the heal component of the nuke.
Its complete irrelevent to why the dps potential of spec nuke is nerfed, alot of other casters got the same or better quality nukes both with and without pets, so the heal component of the LT or the intercept of the pet must be the problem.
So again it dosnt make any sense to nerf the dps potential of a spec spell that might be too strong with 1 out of 5 pets.
Personally i wish they would just remove ST or limit it to 1 hybrid per realm like thane / champ / paladin or something like that.
AoE stun and stun immunity reset in the same RA is just silly imo.
As a player with multiple healers / clerics / druids / bards ( i like support :P ) for all i care you can remove AoE stun too and give me something more fun in return. ( DoT / Nuke / instant amnesia / hammer spec line / pet / whatever lol )
Many times with det and stuff stun is just a minor speedbump anyway.
That's precisely wrong and I agree with you on several points and proposals. One non-charge hybrid per realm? Sure, why not, it's not a huge deal. But I think I was succinct when I said Mids whining about Albs getting more stun was like a millionaire begrudging a homeless cripple getting a bag of potatoes.
"Yeah I am pretty sure those pesky Thane AoE's with a few RMs speccing for AoE is much better then Heretic's tons of focus, or wizards AoE."
RMs get the same AOE that Wizard's do, except their debuff AE nuke is also paired with their stronger line, which also happens to be one of Mid's designated debuff nuke damage types (Cold). BDs get AOE and Totems, Warlocks get PBAOE (and plate absorb and primers and uninterruptible casts). SMs have PBAOE and AOE Tap. Thane AOE is just the icing on top. Not to mention Mid AOE has better support and class setup to facilitate it, AE Stun being just one among the many.
Keep in mind things were much more imbalanced before Cab got PBAE and AE. Yes, Heretics are the one saving grace, in fact probably the only thing that keeps Alb from being a complete joke in zerg vs zerg.
Okay, for the last time.
"RMs debuff nuke is paired with their stronger line"..
You mean the line where the only thing is a spec DD + Dmg add? A line where all RMs don't even spec for higher AoE because they give up PBT for it? Yeah, superior.
"BDs get AOE and Totems, Warlocks get PBAOE (and plate absorb and primers and uninterruptible casts)"
2 Niche class, with Warlock being the best mid PB thats for sure.
"SMs have PBAOE and AOE Tap"
Ah yes the famous feared AoE lifetap that no SM ever specced + a PBAoE thats also very rarely specced by SMs.
"Keep in mind things were much more imbalanced before Cab got PBAE and AE. Yes, Heretics are the one saving grace, in fact probably the only thing that keeps Alb from being a complete joke in zerg vs zerg."
Thats the point, it was fairly okay right now with no player complaining. I would even argue that Albs claim superiority even themselves in the current warfare. Yet it's perfectly okay if Alb want more things, but how dare Mids?! This discussion goes nowhere.
All this flaming in this topic over A ) a PvE ability B ) ST which even mids said would be too good on RM. I just don't get how we got to this point, but I guess its always fun to go rabid over other realms
@Gavner it's because you keep coming up with poor arguments even if we do agree on the outcome. I love how Runemasters have the luxury to complain that they give up PBT (you can still get a blue with blue NS with 47 Dark, but I digress), when Wizards just get a spec bolt, DD, and an AE in Fire. That's it. Again, you chose to draw those parallels when you decided to bring up Wizards as though they're particularly good at AOE. They're not, they're literally no better than Mentalists. In fact given the range, damage type, delve and spec points, and self-AOE debuff Thanes get, they probably are worse than Thanes. In spite of the free 5% crit casters get, their 23 rising dex, and acuity buff.
Are you actually trying to argue against my claim that Alb's AOE and Stun situation is vastly inferior? Because saying "Wizards and Heretics" is not an argument. BD is also not a niche class, it's extremely strong. The only reason why I bring up SM tap is because you were apparently just doing a laundry list of every class in Alb that could potentially AOE anything, so I threw that in there to cover my bases.
For Alb to meet Mid class for class in AOE you'd need to add a whole bunch of PBAE and AOE to several caster lines. Yes I will give you Heretics, even though their AE damage is not great their snare makes it easier to AOE nuke in open field zerg fights. But they still don't clearly hold it over Thanes/Healers/Shamans as enablers, which means we still have gaping weaknesses to deal with when it comes to actual Alb AOE damage.
Again, the point is, you are the millionaire begrudging the homeless cripple.
Tics combined with a wizzy for ae disease can essentially disable a melee assist train. Drop st on the mid tank train. Hit it with ae snare. Wizard throw out some ae disease. Where they going? F’ing nowhere!
It shouldn't take your healers longer than 1.2s to cure that disease, and it won't be instantly replied because Wizards aren't Shamans, who spread more disease than Nicki Minaj and Leonardo DiCaprio combined. But yes, the Tic snare is powerful. But there is no special synergy between Tic snare and ST, you can Tic snare into any kind of AOE. ST strips your stun immunity and healers can just toss another one over it.
Then again it is a tank train so they will just charge/Det their way out, if we're talking about a clump if players in general it's a different story.
Okay, if we don't stop, here's whats obvious:
- Fair to say that right now all realms fairly capable in Zerg vs Zerg.
- You been nowhere to be found when Albs & your Heretic gets ST because Hibs have 2 too, but flame the forum arguing with people who also disagree on RM getting ST just because their "reasons are wrong". Well, where can I find your complain on Heretic ST?
- "RMs get the same AOE that Wizard's do, except their debuff AE nuke is also paired with their stronger line" This simply false.
- "AE Stun is not really niche" but bolt range mezz is, so is baseline lifetap, so is Paladin Celerity chant, so is a damned taunt for PvE is niche by your book. Ah did I forget times when insta mezz was niche too? I guess as long Albion, and your toons gets love its balance, if others you dont like, its "begging, and niche ability"
Talk about hypocritical....
Hereby I would love to point out I have 0 issues with these realm specific abilities, nor crying for getting anything new, unlike some would like to think so.
" Fair to say that right now all realms fairly capable in Zerg vs Zerg."
Not by a mile. What saves Alb is 1) Heretics 2) the fact that so many uber items, MLs, CLs, etc have been added to the game that their inherent class disadvantages have been diluted 3) numbers, on occasion.
"You been nowhere to be found when Albs & your Heretic gets ST because Hibs have 2 too"
That absolutely was not BSword's rationale. I believe they added it to another class because Friars weren't the best class for it, and they recognize that Alb is just weak in stun and AE in general.
"but bolt range mezz is, so is baseline lifetap, so is Paladin Celerity chant"
Yes, they are. Bolt range mez is perhaps not nice, it's great, but Bards and Healers have other tools which keep their mezzing up to snuff. Paladin celerity is low range on a class that competes for slots with Friars. Baseline lifetap gives a 6% DPS edge to classes that were balance around it for years.
AOE Stun regularly gets zergs killed. That's all. Swap healers and sorcs for a month, we'll see what you think after.
Warlocks get PBAOE (and plate absorb and primers and uninterruptible casts).
that's like saying that wizards get pbaoe, high delve ranged AE DD, self debuffing high delve single target nukes, AE disease, NS, 2 bolts, and what not...
they are not in the same spec line...
a pbaoe lock doesn't get high ABS .... ever.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Wow.... This is exactly why I feel sorry for BS. Every time I hear about how BS doesn't listen to the community I think of threads like this. Just take ST here. Up until recently hib had 2, mids and albs had 1. Then albs were going to get it on minstrils, after much complaining from the Albs. People threw a fit. Then it gets changed to tics, some like, some hate. Now mids complain that hibs and albs got two and they should get an extra. They do. Now people are pissed about that because they have aoe stun. Now some believe class X should have it. Others think class Y should get it. Nope, it should be all realms only have class. Nope, it should be adjusted overall......
Do you not see? Even the slightest change causes this much difference difference in opinion. BS tries to listen but then every time they do this **** happens where everyone tries to nerf the other realm or get their own lil buffs and perks.
Right, my mistake, bolts and a bunch of instas as well as +17 absorb if they want it
then they would lose uninteruptable pbaoe that at the standard spec of 49 curse / 22 hex drives them out of power in 6 casts.
stop commenting on classes you obviously never played and have no clue about. going out of power in 6 casts doing 65 % of normal damage on pbaoe. it's NOT free moc.
especially with the proposed nerf to WC dots and the last nerf to power consumption and damage output, uninteruptable primer is a shadow of what it was. it now only affects a very tiny proportion of offensive spells.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Wow.... This is exactly why I feel sorry for BS. Every time I hear about how BS doesn't listen to the community I think of threads like this.
Mids whined up a storm simply because Alb got something, like they always do. I'm just telling BS they should stick to their guns. They had reasons for their changes, and a few Mids whining should not have forced their hand.
Just saying that tons of people disagree with the "this realm get X so so should we" argument. It's nonsense.
People generally support whatever change is best for their toons and/or playstyle. People that talk about "balance" seldom actually care about balance. They don't want their toons nerf'd while they want toons that can beat them nerf'd. This is 90% of suggested balance people want.
While its appreciated that savages get climb walls ,maybe putting it at 49 spec instead of 50 would have been better? I dont see it getting specced for with it being that high in savagery seeing how savages work currently.
That's exactly the point .
"Optimally" specced Minstrels don't have climb-walls either.
So, 25 in stealth equates to 50 in savagery? Answers a lot of questions
Comments
Bad Idea
If its really necessary to please the crowd and add a second ST for mids (giving them 3 options for AOE stuns) it should go to a healer that is specced minimum 40 in Aug
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I suspect this is because you think the RA stack favors Alb/Hib.
@BurkleyRIP
That would work, but statistically adding it to another class would have more or less the same effect. The fact that Mids will whine about it is not a reason to forever put shackles on Broadsword's hands.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
And what does all this have to do with anything ?
Some of us that mainly play support, still like to be able to focus pull.
What Animist, BD and Necro can do, dont really have anything to do with the 3 old main pet classes.
If pet taunt on Caba is such a minor thing that caba would rather have something else, then why so many excuses for not returning it to all 3 pet classes instead of only 1
Its a PvE thing that dosnt affect class balance in RvR, why shouldnt it be returned to all.
But if that how things are done then lets remove all mess from bard sorc and healer, then 1 month later return it to only bard and call it realm unique, cause other classes on mid and alb got AoE mess with different duration so all should be fine.
Anyway carol already answered it in the grabbag so it can end here.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
There is a huge difference. Mids AoE stunn is same niche ability as bolt-range mezz, base lifetap, base stunn on hib casters, instant amnesia, and the list could go on forever. RAs however totally different, and arguably AoE stunn is much weaker now, then it was years ago, lots of high RRs around, lots of DET+Stoic classes etc..
I mean, it shouldn't be equal, like Druid had Grp purge back then right? Also, remove IP from Hero, because it's much stronger with moose then other realms..
I mean come on, im on a side that 1/1/1 is more then enough for ST, since it's too powerful of an RA, also agree I wouldn't give it to RM, but rather a much less represented class in zergs, and some nerf on lower specs of ST would be great, still, this AoE stunn argument on an RA is so weak, I mean since around I never saw a complain that thanes ST + AoE stunn wiping other realm's zergs..
Just nerf ST, give it to a worse mid class, or simply reset 1/1/1.
This isnt like they get x so should we.
This is they removed this from 3 classes that didnt really make much sense, then returned it to 1 but not the other 2.
If there was a reasons to remove it from 3 classes that are close to identical, then when the reason for the removal from 1 class isnt there anymore then that reason shouldnt be there for any of the other 2 classes......its a PvE ability, thats just nice and fun to have, nothing else.
Funny how you single out mid vs alb, while im talking all 3 pet classes.
Anyway lets agree to disagree about this mighty gamebreaking PvE fun ability.
But Alb should get more ST, because Mid have AoE stunn right? :P "they get X so so should we" or rather "they get AoE, so we should get ST"
Alb got another ST because Friars are the least optimal class to put it on. That and Alb, generally, has the worst stuns. AE Stun and Baseline Caster stun are game-changers in keeps, Minstrel stun is nice in stealth groups when you want to kill off one guy that's running away, and that's about it.
Long story short, BSword saw a need and they changed it, and then Mids started crying. Having it on one class on each realm is also fine, but Paladins and Friars sort of compete for the same spots.
AE Stun is not really niche at all and Mid has plenty of other advantages that stack up to Bolt Range mez.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Its perfectly fine Caba gets PBAE like SM and Chanter, but only caba are allowed to have taunt returned.
You have this backwards. Cabalists got PBAE because Mid had 2 PBAE classes and Hib had 3, plus FAE, plus Animist Verd PBAE, plus AOE bolt, plus two 170+ delve AOE DDs, and ranged AOE on literally every single caster class. And Ice Wizards have been the worst PBAE class for 15 out of 17 years, and are still the worst at PBAEing itself. Alb still has the worst AE potential and has had the worst AE potential for the entire history of the game, but you are begrudging them this one change. This just goes to show how deep Mid's sense of entitlement runs.
You are good at playing with emotions and words. There is nothing special about "having something returned". No pet class was ever entitled to taunt, which Mythic added to flesh out pet classes, but Cabs didn't have it (via a style) and now they're getting one via a proc.
So really you're just twisting words to complain about Albs getting boosts in places where they are and always have been the weakest.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Stated many times by both of us, regardless where we play, we still against RM getting the ST, or even any realm getting more ST then it's absolutely necessary as it's too powerful atm. Solution also should be nerfing this ability a bit.
Then you both missed my point. My point was that changes should come as they address weaknesses and legitimate complaints. Alb's AOE is weak and continues to be weak, and Cab PBAE was added to help alleviate this weakness. Is Mid's stun and AOE stun also weak? No, even with 1 ST class they reign supreme because of AOE Stun.
We shouldn't be cherry picking, ST is an AOE stun issue first and a RA balance issue second. Mids are just using rhetoric to force the issue, as they always have.
Metaphorically it's like a millionaire moaning about the government handing some cripples a sack of potatoes to barter for crutches. Even with ST, Alb is the weakest at stun, at AE Stun, and what it facilitates - AE nukes and bombing.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
ah so im a Mid ? lol wrong guess try again, but i guess thats why im saying ST on RM is a bad idea, its the evil mid person out to get albs....
You are the one that keeps making this about alb vs mid, caba vs SM intercept, caba vs animist and BD.
Im pretty sure i been talking all 3 orignal pet classes all the way, but hey.
You cant really compare 3 clases having something taken away, then 1 gets it returned vs. classes wanting abilities they never had before because other classes got it.
Im pretty sure a PvE taunt isnt really a strength or a weakness, its just nice to have.
I havent demanded that SM or chanter got taunt back, i have just been asking broadsword why things was done as they are and carol answered that in the grabbag like i told you earlier:
Why you go slightly crazy about a simple question about a PvE taunt that dosnt affect anything in RvR and going on about Mid entitlement, its a question and it was answered....chill dude lol.
Atleast we learned what realm you dont like lol.
This whole thing was precipitated by Mids whining about Alb getting ST on a second class. And again, with taunt, I'm arguing against that same rationale, not what actually happened. It is good that Carol explained the change, but once again there's no reason why Hib or Mid should get something just because Alb did. Just because everyone lost something, it doesn't mean all are entitled to have it back once one of the three has it returned. That's just rhetoric, especially when so many other changes were put in place.
This isn't personal but Mids whining has historically made game balance worse on flimsy grounds.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Yes. Give Mids an inch, they'll take a mile. This isn't referring to you in particular, but just look at that thread where the addition to Minstrels was first announced. Nothing but Mids whining and claiming, as they have for the last 17 years, that the "devs play Alb". I'm just setting my position in principle. Buff where buffs are needed, and ignore cherry-picking, emotional appeals, rhetoric and other poor arguments.
If you think Mid is too weak in Stuns or AOE stuns or bomb capabilities, please make your case. Otherwise, there is no reason why Mid needs a 2nd ST.
If BSword was working with convincing reasons to give Alb 2 STs, then they should stick with that thinking and not be swayed by rhetoric. Personally, I don't think it's a big deal either way, but we need to set standards for how balance discussions go moving forward. Yes, I'd even prefer a niche AE Stun in Smite over ST on Heretics, but that's me, and not entirely the point anyway.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Any buffs Albs gets is fair.
Other realms just whine and OP.
No issue m8, just don't try to say u don't have bias. :P
"Alb still has the worst AE potential and has had the worst AE potential for the entire history of the game"
Yeah I am pretty sure those pesky Thane AoE's with a few RMs speccing for AoE is much better then Heretic's tons of focus, or wizards AoE.
We had no freaking issue with Cabbys PB, nor Ice wizards new abilities added few years ago, yet u sell it like theres 200 PB specced Elds, and AoE Bainshees running around raping people. SMs also wasn't really specced into PB, but rather warlocks.
Actually AoE is pretty much fine on all realm right now.
Not sure where i am complaining about anything, since when is asking questions about a thing complaining.
If it did come out like that it wasnt the intention. ( English isnt my primary language, probably easy to spot :P )
So just because some have lots of AoE dosnt mean all are entitled to it too ? Its Mid entitlement right ?
Pet taunt is a PvE ability imo atleast, no matter what realm we are talking about all should have equal access to fun, so i still enjoy visiting old places and nameds across all realms and farming them with focus like i did many years ago, because i find it fun even tho the rewards thise days are junk.
Sure i would like old caba / SM / chanter pets back and i would surely enjoy having the old necro back.
Im not sure how my PvE fun and question about it suddenly became a realm imbalance compareable to ST in RvR or lack of AoE.
Im not a Mid main and i dont agree with adding ST to Minstrel, tic, RM or anything. So because i dont agree with albs getting ST im a whiny Mid ?
That's precisely wrong and I agree with you on several points and proposals. One non-charge hybrid per realm? Sure, why not, it's not a huge deal. But I think I was succinct when I said Mids whining about Albs getting more stun was like a millionaire begrudging a homeless cripple getting a bag of potatoes.
"Yeah I am pretty sure those pesky Thane AoE's with a few RMs speccing for AoE is much better then Heretic's tons of focus, or wizards AoE."
RMs get the same AOE that Wizard's do, except their debuff AE nuke is also paired with their stronger line, which also happens to be one of Mid's designated debuff nuke damage types (Cold). BDs get AOE and Totems, Warlocks get PBAOE (and plate absorb and primers and uninterruptible casts). SMs have PBAOE and AOE Tap. Thane AOE is just the icing on top. Not to mention Mid AOE has better support and class setup to facilitate it, AE Stun being just one among the many.
Keep in mind things were much more imbalanced before Cab got PBAE and AE. Yes, Heretics are the one saving grace, in fact probably the only thing that keeps Alb from being a complete joke in zerg vs zerg.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Again, your argument initially was that it should be given to SM and Chanters because Cabs got it. I'm just saying, that's not a good argument
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
From my first post here, hows that suddenly
Hows that an argument for giving anyone anything lol.
Where was i in support of anyone lol, i try to direct questions toward braodsword that i would like an answer to.
So basicly you just assume alot of things and go by that ?
Im a Mid
I want albs nerfed
Im in support of Xyorman.
Like wtf.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
All i can find is the same question asked again and again about taunt, but feel free to quote it and point out where cause i cant find it.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
=
Im a Mid
I want albs nerfed
Im in support of Xyorman.
Just because i ask for the reason of why a change was made.
I dont follow.
Really, not directed at you, but we've just seen enough of that. We're all just so tired of Mids demanding every little thing Alb and sometimes Hib has be handed to them.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
If you read the later post in the topic, just like my initial post here, i was questioning the reason behind nerfing the dps potential of a spec nuke, instead of nerfing the intercept pet more or the heal component of the nuke.
Here you go: https://forums.darkageofcamelot.com/discussion/1502/sm-cabby-nerf/p2
Down the page
On page one in this thread
My question was answered in the grabbag.
So again you saying
Im a Mid
I want albs nerfed
Im in support of Xyorman.
I dont follow.
Okay, for the last time.
"RMs debuff nuke is paired with their stronger line"..
You mean the line where the only thing is a spec DD + Dmg add? A line where all RMs don't even spec for higher AoE because they give up PBT for it? Yeah, superior.
"BDs get AOE and Totems, Warlocks get PBAOE (and plate absorb and primers and uninterruptible casts)"
2 Niche class, with Warlock being the best mid PB thats for sure.
"SMs have PBAOE and AOE Tap"
Ah yes the famous feared AoE lifetap that no SM ever specced + a PBAoE thats also very rarely specced by SMs.
"Keep in mind things were much more imbalanced before Cab got PBAE and AE. Yes, Heretics are the one saving grace, in fact probably the only thing that keeps Alb from being a complete joke in zerg vs zerg."
Thats the point, it was fairly okay right now with no player complaining. I would even argue that Albs claim superiority even themselves in the current warfare. Yet it's perfectly okay if Alb want more things, but how dare Mids?! This discussion goes nowhere.
All this flaming in this topic over A ) a PvE ability B ) ST which even mids said would be too good on RM. I just don't get how we got to this point, but I guess its always fun to go rabid over other realms
Are you actually trying to argue against my claim that Alb's AOE and Stun situation is vastly inferior? Because saying "Wizards and Heretics" is not an argument. BD is also not a niche class, it's extremely strong. The only reason why I bring up SM tap is because you were apparently just doing a laundry list of every class in Alb that could potentially AOE anything, so I threw that in there to cover my bases.
For Alb to meet Mid class for class in AOE you'd need to add a whole bunch of PBAE and AOE to several caster lines. Yes I will give you Heretics, even though their AE damage is not great their snare makes it easier to AOE nuke in open field zerg fights. But they still don't clearly hold it over Thanes/Healers/Shamans as enablers, which means we still have gaping weaknesses to deal with when it comes to actual Alb AOE damage.
Again, the point is, you are the millionaire begrudging the homeless cripple.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Let's end it here, we will never ever get to the same point so I am done.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Then again it is a tank train so they will just charge/Det their way out, if we're talking about a clump if players in general it's a different story.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Okay, if we don't stop, here's whats obvious:
- Fair to say that right now all realms fairly capable in Zerg vs Zerg.
- You been nowhere to be found when Albs & your Heretic gets ST because Hibs have 2 too, but flame the forum arguing with people who also disagree on RM getting ST just because their "reasons are wrong". Well, where can I find your complain on Heretic ST?
- "RMs get the same AOE that Wizard's do, except their debuff AE nuke is also paired with their stronger line" This simply false.
- "AE Stun is not really niche" but bolt range mezz is, so is baseline lifetap, so is Paladin Celerity chant, so is a damned taunt for PvE is niche by your book. Ah did I forget times when insta mezz was niche too? I guess as long Albion, and your toons gets love its balance, if others you dont like, its "begging, and niche ability"
Talk about hypocritical....
Hereby I would love to point out I have 0 issues with these realm specific abilities, nor crying for getting anything new, unlike some would like to think so.
Not by a mile. What saves Alb is 1) Heretics 2) the fact that so many uber items, MLs, CLs, etc have been added to the game that their inherent class disadvantages have been diluted 3) numbers, on occasion.
"You been nowhere to be found when Albs & your Heretic gets ST because Hibs have 2 too"
That absolutely was not BSword's rationale. I believe they added it to another class because Friars weren't the best class for it, and they recognize that Alb is just weak in stun and AE in general.
"but bolt range mezz is, so is baseline lifetap, so is Paladin Celerity chant"
Yes, they are. Bolt range mez is perhaps not nice, it's great, but Bards and Healers have other tools which keep their mezzing up to snuff. Paladin celerity is low range on a class that competes for slots with Friars. Baseline lifetap gives a 6% DPS edge to classes that were balance around it for years.
AOE Stun regularly gets zergs killed. That's all. Swap healers and sorcs for a month, we'll see what you think after.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
that's like saying that wizards get pbaoe, high delve ranged AE DD, self debuffing high delve single target nukes, AE disease, NS, 2 bolts, and what not...
they are not in the same spec line...
a pbaoe lock doesn't get high ABS .... ever.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Do you not see? Even the slightest change causes this much difference difference in opinion. BS tries to listen but then every time they do this **** happens where everyone tries to nerf the other realm or get their own lil buffs and perks.
then they would lose uninteruptable pbaoe that at the standard spec of 49 curse / 22 hex drives them out of power in 6 casts.
stop commenting on classes you obviously never played and have no clue about. going out of power in 6 casts doing 65 % of normal damage on pbaoe. it's NOT free moc.
especially with the proposed nerf to WC dots and the last nerf to power consumption and damage output, uninteruptable primer is a shadow of what it was. it now only affects a very tiny proportion of offensive spells.
Mids whined up a storm simply because Alb got something, like they always do. I'm just telling BS they should stick to their guns. They had reasons for their changes, and a few Mids whining should not have forced their hand.
Just saying that tons of people disagree with the "this realm get X so so should we" argument. It's nonsense.
Mid does not need more AOE stun, period.
@Muylae
"hex drives them out of power in 6 casts."
More than enough to kill something. Sorry I'm being dismissive of Warlocks, since they're so over the top that it's rather funny to me.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
People that support their arguments imo
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
So, 25 in stealth equates to 50 in savagery? Answers a lot of questions