[leric gets stun for free....whats that gotta do with anything ?...............
Why does caba as the only one of the 3 original pet classes suddenly get taunt returned to a pet ? all 3 classes used to have taunt that got removed for some odd reason, but now caba needs it but the others dosnt ?
Im sorry but to me this just looks like random buffing and nerfing with not much thought behind it.
The Cab pet can taunt, yes, but no Cab pet intercepts. The pets are all different.
And the Cleric getting stun for free is irrelevant, Alb and Mid only have one AOE disease class and the Shaman gets that for free. Saying Cabs get DZ in Body is not much of a credit for the Body Spec. Darkness is much better.
Wizard and Cabby can AOE Disease so that is two Mid only has one.
As far as I can remember, SM's lifetap has been top tier, since I started Mordred back in 05. I am just thrown off about why its taking nearly 2 decades to nerf something that isnt even a relevant issue. Did a developer get obliterated in a BG multiple times or something? Is there some kind of secret RR 13 SM going around killing multiple melees as a solo that no one is aware of?
Why is it honestly so hard for someone from @Broadsword to chime into this and just let everyone here know whats going on? Everyone here is paying a subscription, is concerned with some changes being made, and there is absolutely zero involvement or acknowledgement coming from someone with an actual voice to these changes.
I seriously cannot grasp why @Carol_Broadsword can reply to a thread regarding characters being stuck and/or obvious malicious & baiting comments from player to player, but when an actual change to the game is being made, that the player base is not agreeing with, you're no where to be found to even say "Hey, maybe we should take a second look at this, i'll pass a message on!"
I am very disappointed in the involvement that the developers pick and choose to show a clear interest in.
The Cab pet can taunt, yes, but no Cab pet intercepts. The pets are all different.
Except that all pets once had access to taunt and it wasnt a difference, it was removed because .... ? and caba now need it back but the others dosnt because ?
If the arguement is that its because its different per realm, then SM should keep its high delve LT and intercept pet, cause the realms are different.
Shaman gets high level, 400 radius AOE disease for free, and Nearsight is in the Matter spec. A Body/Matter cab cannot debuff for other casters, you'd need a second Cab in Spirit for that.
Its complete irrelevent to why the dps potential of spec nuke is nerfed, alot of other casters got the same or better quality nukes both with and without pets, so the heal component of the LT or the intercept of the pet must be the problem.
So again it dosnt make any sense to nerf the dps potential of a spec spell that might be too strong with 1 out of 5 pets.
Why is it honestly so hard for someone from @Broadsword to chime into this and just let everyone here know whats going on? Everyone here is paying a subscription, is concerned with some changes being made, and there is absolutely zero involvement or acknowledgement coming from someone with an actual voice to these changes.
I seriously cannot grasp why @Carol_Broadsword can reply to a thread regarding characters being stuck and/or obvious malicious & baiting comments from player to player, but when an actual change to the game is being made, that the player base is not agreeing with, you're no where to be found to even say "Hey, maybe we should take a second look at this, i'll pass a message on!"
Have you looked at the threads as of late? There has been tons of @carol lately and ZERO REPLY. People have questions, NO reply. People have asked about class issues, patch class imbalance, NO reply. I guess I must be mistaken in understanding what a community representative job actually is. Certainly isn't engaging with the players.
Have you ever stopped to think that if she isn't replying than something else might be happening in her life.
Last time i talked to her she wasn't feeling well - i know for fact most of you aren't 6 year olds - grow the [no] up and stop acting like one. jeees.
If you have problems discuss it - debate it, patch is still on pendragon - its not on live yet.
From my observations SM's are over performing in some scenerios - Not sure i have ever seen a Body Cab thou - i'm sure they exist by the way you guys are talking thou.
SpiritMaster Intercept rate is perfect. Do NOT touch spiritmaster. I run a balance spec and I think its extremely fair. I noticed if you stand behind the warrior your intercept rate is extremely high. If your pet is getting attacked from all sides the intercept rate is lower and you still get hit. The nuke damage is normal as far as I can tell. Dropped 500 plat on an OP suit and I still get rocked by hybrid classes like the heretic. Another thing is if someone attacks your pet it instantly leaves your side making you vulnerable to melee attacks. There are ways to beat a warrior hugging SM just have to use your head. Worry about archer damage not pet classes lol
@Shauzia - You're funny. Worry about archery dmg but not sm's?! Sm's are one of the strongest pet classes in the game, and most would say the most powerful pet class. You just don't want the class you play nerfed.
[leric gets stun for free....whats that gotta do with anything ?...............
Why does caba as the only one of the 3 original pet classes suddenly get taunt returned to a pet ? all 3 classes used to have taunt that got removed for some odd reason, but now caba needs it but the others dosnt ?
Im sorry but to me this just looks like random buffing and nerfing with not much thought behind it.
The Cab pet can taunt, yes, but no Cab pet intercepts. The pets are all different.
And the Cleric getting stun for free is irrelevant, Alb and Mid only have one AOE disease class and the Shaman gets that for free. Saying Cabs get DZ in Body is not much of a credit for the Body Spec. Darkness is much better.
I suppose you realize your cabby can have 50% Body debuff + LT + disease + Nearsight, and can afford all these abilities pretty easily?
There aren't a million caby specs around... you are either debuffer (45 spirit 25 body 11 matter) or you are nuker (46 body 28 matter). In all cases, you get all the tools you listed (LT, single disease, ae disease, NS, ...). You don't need two cabys to do anything. You have 2 cabys because you want two un'ccable pets...
[leric gets stun for free....whats that gotta do with anything ?...............
Why does caba as the only one of the 3 original pet classes suddenly get taunt returned to a pet ? all 3 classes used to have taunt that got removed for some odd reason, but now caba needs it but the others dosnt ?
Im sorry but to me this just looks like random buffing and nerfing with not much thought behind it.
The Cab pet can taunt, yes, but no Cab pet intercepts. The pets are all different.
And the Cleric getting stun for free is irrelevant, Alb and Mid only have one AOE disease class and the Shaman gets that for free. Saying Cabs get DZ in Body is not much of a credit for the Body Spec. Darkness is much better.
Wizard and Cabby can AOE Disease so that is two Mid only has one.
Yes but I feel most Ice Wizards don't realize they can aoe disease lol
Have you ever stopped to think that if she isn't replying than something else might be happening in her life.
Last time i talked to her she wasn't feeling well - i know for fact most of you aren't 6 year olds - grow the [no] up and stop acting like one. jeees.
If you have problems discuss it - debate it, patch is still on pendragon - its not on live yet.
From my observations SM's are over performing in some scenerios - Not sure i have ever seen a Body Cab thou - i'm sure they exist by the way you guys are talking thou.
My Cabalist is Body spec specifically for soloing. Granted, I'm not actively playing Alb at the moment.
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
@Shauzia - You're funny. Worry about archery dmg but not sm's?! Sm's are one of the strongest pet classes in the game, and most would say the most powerful pet class. You just don't want the class you play nerfed.
I agree Ron, but we've had this discussion before. No one wants a class they prefer to play nerfed. Period. The majority of this thread is asking questions that should be addressed by BS . Why nerf one and not the other? SM's strongest pet class? Possiby. Nerf the pet? They are. Buff the caby pet. They are. Nerf damage on a higher cost spec for one class and leave the opposite realm class spell untouched (with a lower cost spec). If it worked like that, then i could b&m about my hunter pet spec level. Know why i get better damage out of mine? I spec higher. Know why an ice wizard gets higher aoe spec damage than a tri spec?, they spec higher in ice. Better returns for a dark sm in their lifetap.. .they spec higher. Or that should be the case.... but what they are suggesting with the change now is that they lower the delve in return for a class that has to spec higher to get that delve/return.
The approach they are using is too broad. Maybe they have had too many complaints about SM's being overpowered. I play mine randomly in the bg, so i won't be seriously affected either way. Its the standard they are using nowadays though. Problem? Lets throw 20 knives at the balloon and one is bound to hit. What about the 19 other knives that screw everything else up? We'll figure that out later... Just tired of that approach
Have you ever stopped to think that if she isn't replying than something else might be happening in her life.
Last time i talked to her she wasn't feeling well - i know for fact most of you aren't 6 year olds - grow the [no] up and stop acting like one. jeees.
If you have problems discuss it - debate it, patch is still on pendragon - its not on live yet.
From my observations SM's are over performing in some scenerios - Not sure i have ever seen a Body Cab thou - i'm sure they exist by the way you guys are talking thou.
I can completely understand if life is happening. It does to everyone. However, that doesn't mean that someone else from the team cannot step in and temporarily take over. This is why there are hierarchies in businesses.. ie. Manager, Assistant Manager(usually more than one).. and so on..
I doubt @Carol_Broadsword is the only one on the team capable of communicating with the player base regarding game changes.
@Huehuaehue I resepct that opinion, but if thats the case, then nerf both lifetaps. Obviously the pet is the issue. If it wasnt then they would nerf the caby lifetap as well as the sm. I feel like they were taking a path in the right direction with the pet nerf, but then to randomly toss in the LT nerf as well. Its like a politician trying to sneak in a bill by hiding it at the bottom of another bill.
the only thing that needs to be nerfed is lifetap imo, people shouldn't be lifetaping people as hard as they nuke with their best nuke
if your gonna use a spell that heals you it shouldn't do the same damage as your opponents best nukes that don't heal do imo
At the moment, the only spec nuke that is lower delve than spec LT is DD/Snare for casters. All other spec nukes, including those with DD/resist debuffs, are higher delve than spec LT. Therefore, this point is moot.
Edit: I am not entirely correct. Earth Theurgist spec nuke is 179 (should be baseline imo), Enchantment Enchanter spec nuke is 199, and Summoning Spiritmaster spec nuke is 184.
Post edited by Tyrantanic on
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
I suppose you realize your cabby can have 50% Body debuff + LT + disease + Nearsight, and can afford all these abilities pretty easily?
There aren't a million caby specs around... you are either debuffer (45 spirit 25 body 11 matter) or you are nuker (46 body 28 matter). In all cases, you get all the tools you listed (LT, single disease, ae disease, NS, ...). You don't need two cabys to do anything. You have 2 cabys because you want two un'ccable pets...
Since you're comparing purple, 400 radius, -55 STR, baseline AOE DZ to blue, 300 radius, -35 strength, highly resisted AOE DZ on a class that gets the most value out of nuking instead of spamming interrupts, I don't see why you're making a mountain out of a -9% delve molehill.
The argument you're jumping into went something like this:
Player complains that it's not fair that Dark is nerfed but Body isn't
I respond that Body is a worse spec, on its own and especially considering realm class composition
Player brings up DZ/NS.
I respond that DZ is a "mirrored" ability, and it still doesn't make Body Spec as viable as Dark, which has both Debuff/Nuke and a high delve lifetap.
Your claim now is that Cabalists can have NS/DZ/Debuff. They're all in separate lines, so this is disingenuous. We're not ticking boxes here, the level and delve of these spells matter or else we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place.
The answer to the original question is, "the realms are different". Even with a lowered delve, Dark SM is superior to Body Cab. No one ever bothers to question why Healer stun is 11 seconds at level 50 and Cleric stun is 9. Just as one of many examples of advantages that Mid never complains about for some reason.
But yes, an explanation of what the design team's goals and intentions and active debate would be helpful.
I agree with a lot of what you said @Ylazul . It is a bit of a mole hill... , but i appreciate your acknowledgement that an explanation would alleviate some of this debate.
I'm not comparing specs per say myself. 45 body vs 47 body isnt a tremendous amount of points, but its there.
The pet nerf was understandable, but it seems like someone took the opportunity to dump the sm Lifetap nerf on top of that maybe in hopes that it would slip through. Ive posted this in several of my replies. I'm not hugely affected because i dont have a 50 sm. I do see this as a major flaw in their process though. Instead of taking baby steps and fixing issues one at a time, they dump the whole pile out there and then spend the next several months cleaning it up. I'd just like to see this be proactive instead of reactive. The patch is taking long enough. Since theyre taking their time with it, then i prefer they get it right, rather than blindly (per our perspective , until advised otherwise) throw darts at it.
@Sleepwell yes I'm in agreement with you here. I'm personally not totally comfortable with there being a large unacknowledged gap between the SM and Body Cab spec lifetaps in a strict design sense, especially considering the SM requires a higher spec.
But I just think that, as a general rule, "X realm has Y why don't we" is always the weakest argument to use. This just opens the floodgates to even more unproductive discussion.
More in agreement, I think devs should hold back on the lifetap change or try a smaller decrease first. My preference would be for both Body and Dark spec LTs to be very slightly normed downward (as is, they blow all other spec nukes out of the water in terms of DPS) with some compensation in the rest of the Body Spec, and sparing that perhaps a brief word of explanation.
@RonELuvv how many SM’s have you soloed on your archer?
A handful. I've died WAY more than I have lived against them, and thats with a RR5 that turns the pet against them. Honestly, the problem I have with them on my ranger is more about the multiple forms of CC they have access to along w/ the pet. If you have your RR5 up and use it the smart SM's just kite back till the pet dies, then mez's me, if I purge that then they root me, break LOS, call a new pet up and now i'm hosed. It is certainly the toughest pet class I play against.
@Shauzia - You're funny. Worry about archery dmg but not sm's?! Sm's are one of the strongest pet classes in the game, and most would say the most powerful pet class. You just don't want the class you play nerfed.
I agree Ron, but we've had this discussion before. No one wants a class they prefer to play nerfed. Period. The majority of this thread is asking questions that should be addressed by BS . Why nerf one and not the other? SM's strongest pet class? Possiby. Nerf the pet? They are. Buff the caby pet. They are. Nerf damage on a higher cost spec for one class and leave the opposite realm class spell untouched (with a lower cost spec). If it worked like that, then i could b&m about my hunter pet spec level. Know why i get better damage out of mine? I spec higher. Know why an ice wizard gets higher aoe spec damage than a tri spec?, they spec higher in ice. Better returns for a dark sm in their lifetap.. .they spec higher. Or that should be the case.... but what they are suggesting with the change now is that they lower the delve in return for a class that has to spec higher to get that delve/return.
Oh, I agree 100%. I was not commenting on the post in general, only what Shauzia was saying. I don't know enough about Cabbys or SM's to comment. I was only commenting on his post that they should worry about archery dmg and leave the SM alone. We have discussed many times that a well played SM is one of the strongest classes in the game.
@Huehuaehue I resepct that opinion, but if thats the case, then nerf both lifetaps. Obviously the pet is the issue. If it wasnt then they would nerf the caby lifetap as well as the sm. I feel like they were taking a path in the right direction with the pet nerf, but then to randomly toss in the LT nerf as well. Its like a politician trying to sneak in a bill by hiding it at the bottom of another bill.
Seems like they are doing similar to hunter nerfs. Put a whole bunch of nerf's on a op'd class instead of small incremental nerfs over a long period of time.
@Ylazul I’d like to know how a Dark SM is stronger than a Wiz/Ment/Chanter/Eld spec nuke? Everyone one of the classes I listed have a debuff in their spec nuke, that is 10-15%. On top of a 209-219 delve.. Even an animist delves at what, 219?
@Ylazul I’d like to know how a Dark SM is stronger than a Wiz/Ment/Chanter/Eld spec nuke? Everyone one of the classes I listed have a debuff in their spec nuke, that is 10-15%. On top of a 209-219 delve.. Even an animist delves at what, 219?
199/2.5 * 1.09 = 86.75
219/2.8 = 78.2
Two things. One, the Wiz/RM debuff is 10%, which at maximum is a 17% increase in damage (vs 52% resists and 10% resist pierce templated on someone with Red sists, you're doing 58% of damage while they're doing a 68%). More likely your average target will have resists closer to 30-44, which means after the first nuke the Wiz/RM is hitting for 14-15% more than base. Something closer to a 10-12% increase on a four-hit chain. These are very specific conditions in which you do not have access to a Cold debuff and you are both hitting templated targets with at least yellow resists.
Two, it heals you for 90% of your damage, increased by 25% if I'm remembering right.
@Ylazul I’d like to know how a Dark SM is stronger than a Wiz/Ment/Chanter/Eld spec nuke? Everyone one of the classes I listed have a debuff in their spec nuke, that is 10-15%. On top of a 209-219 delve.. Even an animist delves at what, 219?
199/2.5 * 1.09 = 86.75
219/2.8 = 78.2
Two things. One, the Wiz/RM debuff is 10%, which at maximum is a 17% increase in damage (vs 52% resists and 10% resist pierce templated on someone with Red sists, you're doing 58% of damage while they're doing a 68%). More likely your average target will have resists closer to 30-44, which means after the first nuke the Wiz/RM is hitting for 14-15% more than base. Something closer to a 10-12% increase on a four-hit chain. These are very specific conditions in which you do not have access to a Cold debuff and you are both hitting templated targets with at least yellow resists.
Two, it heals you for 90% of your damage, increased by 25% if I'm remembering right.
Why are you multiplying LT dps by 1.09?
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
All lifetap damage is enhanced, multiplicative, by a one-tenth factor of their delve lifedrain%. This applies across the board to all lifetaps. Level 50 baseline lifetaps get x1.05, Reaver styles get something like x1.08, etc.
All lifetap damage is enhanced, multiplicative, by a one-tenth factor of their delve lifedrain%. This applies across the board to all lifetaps. Level 50 baseline lifetaps get x1.05, Reaver styles get something like x1.08, etc.
I was completely unaware of this. Are there tests demonstrating this enhancement or is there a post/grab-bag from Broadsword (or the old Mythic days) addressing this? It appears to me that this should be removed in today's game.
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
All lifetap damage is enhanced, multiplicative, by a one-tenth factor of their delve lifedrain%. This applies across the board to all lifetaps. Level 50 baseline lifetaps get x1.05, Reaver styles get something like x1.08, etc.
I was completely unaware of this. Are there tests demonstrating this enhancement or is there a post/grab-bag from Broadsword (or the old Mythic days) addressing this? It appears to me that this should be removed in today's game.
I was also unaware of this.. However, my Wizard definitely hits way harder than my SM, and I have MOM on my SM, 0 MOM on my wiz, full WP.. Just throwing that out there. I obviously dont have all the calculations, or circumstances of the dps, but for as long as I can remember, a wiz has always been the highest DPS caster, hands down.
Your initial calculation of dividing the delving dps, but the time to cast, did not factor in the debuff a wizard has, to additionally add 10% of the dps, I think that'll put its overall damage much higher than a dark sm.
All lifetap damage is enhanced, multiplicative, by a one-tenth factor of their delve lifedrain%. This applies across the board to all lifetaps. Level 50 baseline lifetaps get x1.05, Reaver styles get something like x1.08, etc.
I was completely unaware of this. Are there tests demonstrating this enhancement or is there a post/grab-bag from Broadsword (or the old Mythic days) addressing this? It appears to me that this should be removed in today's game.
I was also unaware of this.. However, my Wizard definitely hits way harder than my SM, and I have MOM on my SM, 0 MOM on my wiz, full WP.. Just throwing that out there. I obviously dont have all the calculations, or circumstances of the dps, but for as long as I can remember, a wiz has always been the highest DPS caster, hands down.
Your initial calculation of dividing the delving dps, but the time to cast, did not factor in the debuff a wizard has, to additionally add 10% of the dps, I think that'll put its overall damage much higher than a dark sm.
I have found old threads on IGN stating this enhancement for LT but without anything to verify it. I'll test the DPS between spec LT and a couple spec nukes on Alb later today.
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
It should be the case unless they changed it. Perhaps spec lifetaps were boosted to 199 as compensation, and if that is the case then the SM lifetap should probably stay as is.
Doing some brief testing myself (on my Cab) it looks like the damage bonus applies but doesn't increase damage cap.
Your initial calculation of dividing the delving dps, but the time to cast, did not factor in the debuff a wizard has, to additionally add 10% of the dps, I think that'll put its overall damage much higher than a dark sm.
I did count this, although later in the post. The debuff increases DPS after the first nuke by anywhere from 12-17% depending on resists, but if for example a SM is assisting a RM they also get that 10% debuff, so there are a lot of variables.
Thanks all, we'll take a look at it, great feedback!
I am a little under the weather atm so bear with me on replies
Thank you for your reply, I think all we can ask for is to consider player feedback, which lately is very very much active in many places. Which is also cool, because it means we still have a dedicated playerbase.
Also, wish you to get better, please forgive us for demanding your attention too much lately.
Comments
Wizard and Cabby can AOE Disease so that is two Mid only has one.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Why is it honestly so hard for someone from @Broadsword to chime into this and just let everyone here know whats going on? Everyone here is paying a subscription, is concerned with some changes being made, and there is absolutely zero involvement or acknowledgement coming from someone with an actual voice to these changes.
I seriously cannot grasp why @Carol_Broadsword can reply to a thread regarding characters being stuck and/or obvious malicious & baiting comments from player to player, but when an actual change to the game is being made, that the player base is not agreeing with, you're no where to be found to even say "Hey, maybe we should take a second look at this, i'll pass a message on!"
I am very disappointed in the involvement that the developers pick and choose to show a clear interest in.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
If the arguement is that its because its different per realm, then SM should keep its high delve LT and intercept pet, cause the realms are different.
Thats the point im trying to make, just like i wrote in the post, its irrelevant just like this:
Its complete irrelevent to why the dps potential of spec nuke is nerfed, alot of other casters got the same or better quality nukes both with and without pets, so the heal component of the LT or the intercept of the pet must be the problem.
So again it dosnt make any sense to nerf the dps potential of a spec spell that might be too strong with 1 out of 5 pets.
Have you looked at the threads as of late? There has been tons of @carol lately and ZERO REPLY. People have questions, NO reply. People have asked about class issues, patch class imbalance, NO reply. I guess I must be mistaken in understanding what a community representative job actually is. Certainly isn't engaging with the players.
Last time i talked to her she wasn't feeling well - i know for fact most of you aren't 6 year olds - grow the [no] up and stop acting like one. jeees.
If you have problems discuss it - debate it, patch is still on pendragon - its not on live yet.
From my observations SM's are over performing in some scenerios - Not sure i have ever seen a Body Cab thou - i'm sure they exist by the way you guys are talking thou.
I suppose you realize your cabby can have 50% Body debuff + LT + disease + Nearsight, and can afford all these abilities pretty easily?
There aren't a million caby specs around... you are either debuffer (45 spirit 25 body 11 matter) or you are nuker (46 body 28 matter). In all cases, you get all the tools you listed (LT, single disease, ae disease, NS, ...). You don't need two cabys to do anything. You have 2 cabys because you want two un'ccable pets...
Yes but I feel most Ice Wizards don't realize they can aoe disease lol
My Cabalist is Body spec specifically for soloing. Granted, I'm not actively playing Alb at the moment.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
I agree Ron, but we've had this discussion before. No one wants a class they prefer to play nerfed. Period. The majority of this thread is asking questions that should be addressed by BS . Why nerf one and not the other? SM's strongest pet class? Possiby. Nerf the pet? They are. Buff the caby pet. They are. Nerf damage on a higher cost spec for one class and leave the opposite realm class spell untouched (with a lower cost spec). If it worked like that, then i could b&m about my hunter pet spec level. Know why i get better damage out of mine? I spec higher. Know why an ice wizard gets higher aoe spec damage than a tri spec?, they spec higher in ice. Better returns for a dark sm in their lifetap.. .they spec higher. Or that should be the case.... but what they are suggesting with the change now is that they lower the delve in return for a class that has to spec higher to get that delve/return.
I can completely understand if life is happening. It does to everyone. However, that doesn't mean that someone else from the team cannot step in and temporarily take over. This is why there are hierarchies in businesses.. ie. Manager, Assistant Manager(usually more than one).. and so on..
I doubt @Carol_Broadsword is the only one on the team capable of communicating with the player base regarding game changes.
if your gonna use a spell that heals you it shouldn't do the same damage as your opponents best nukes that don't heal do imo
At the moment, the only spec nuke that is lower delve than spec LT is DD/Snare for casters. All other spec nukes, including those with DD/resist debuffs, are higher delve than spec LT. Therefore, this point is moot.
Edit: I am not entirely correct. Earth Theurgist spec nuke is 179 (should be baseline imo), Enchantment Enchanter spec nuke is 199, and Summoning Spiritmaster spec nuke is 184.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Since you're comparing purple, 400 radius, -55 STR, baseline AOE DZ to blue, 300 radius, -35 strength, highly resisted AOE DZ on a class that gets the most value out of nuking instead of spamming interrupts, I don't see why you're making a mountain out of a -9% delve molehill.
The argument you're jumping into went something like this:
Player complains that it's not fair that Dark is nerfed but Body isn't
I respond that Body is a worse spec, on its own and especially considering realm class composition
Player brings up DZ/NS.
I respond that DZ is a "mirrored" ability, and it still doesn't make Body Spec as viable as Dark, which has both Debuff/Nuke and a high delve lifetap.
Your claim now is that Cabalists can have NS/DZ/Debuff. They're all in separate lines, so this is disingenuous. We're not ticking boxes here, the level and delve of these spells matter or else we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place.
The answer to the original question is, "the realms are different". Even with a lowered delve, Dark SM is superior to Body Cab. No one ever bothers to question why Healer stun is 11 seconds at level 50 and Cleric stun is 9. Just as one of many examples of advantages that Mid never complains about for some reason.
But yes, an explanation of what the design team's goals and intentions and active debate would be helpful.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I'm not comparing specs per say myself. 45 body vs 47 body isnt a tremendous amount of points, but its there.
The pet nerf was understandable, but it seems like someone took the opportunity to dump the sm Lifetap nerf on top of that maybe in hopes that it would slip through. Ive posted this in several of my replies. I'm not hugely affected because i dont have a 50 sm. I do see this as a major flaw in their process though. Instead of taking baby steps and fixing issues one at a time, they dump the whole pile out there and then spend the next several months cleaning it up. I'd just like to see this be proactive instead of reactive. The patch is taking long enough. Since theyre taking their time with it, then i prefer they get it right, rather than blindly (per our perspective , until advised otherwise) throw darts at it.
I am a little under the weather atm so bear with me on replies
Broadsword Online Games
But I just think that, as a general rule, "X realm has Y why don't we" is always the weakest argument to use. This just opens the floodgates to even more unproductive discussion.
More in agreement, I think devs should hold back on the lifetap change or try a smaller decrease first. My preference would be for both Body and Dark spec LTs to be very slightly normed downward (as is, they blow all other spec nukes out of the water in terms of DPS) with some compensation in the rest of the Body Spec, and sparing that perhaps a brief word of explanation.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
A handful. I've died WAY more than I have lived against them, and thats with a RR5 that turns the pet against them. Honestly, the problem I have with them on my ranger is more about the multiple forms of CC they have access to along w/ the pet. If you have your RR5 up and use it the smart SM's just kite back till the pet dies, then mez's me, if I purge that then they root me, break LOS, call a new pet up and now i'm hosed. It is certainly the toughest pet class I play against.
Bah !
Hope you get well soon
Oh, I agree 100%. I was not commenting on the post in general, only what Shauzia was saying. I don't know enough about Cabbys or SM's to comment. I was only commenting on his post that they should worry about archery dmg and leave the SM alone. We have discussed many times that a well played SM is one of the strongest classes in the game.
Seems like they are doing similar to hunter nerfs. Put a whole bunch of nerf's on a op'd class instead of small incremental nerfs over a long period of time.
199/2.5 * 1.09 = 86.75
219/2.8 = 78.2
Two things. One, the Wiz/RM debuff is 10%, which at maximum is a 17% increase in damage (vs 52% resists and 10% resist pierce templated on someone with Red sists, you're doing 58% of damage while they're doing a 68%). More likely your average target will have resists closer to 30-44, which means after the first nuke the Wiz/RM is hitting for 14-15% more than base. Something closer to a 10-12% increase on a four-hit chain. These are very specific conditions in which you do not have access to a Cold debuff and you are both hitting templated targets with at least yellow resists.
Two, it heals you for 90% of your damage, increased by 25% if I'm remembering right.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Why are you multiplying LT dps by 1.09?
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
All lifetap damage is enhanced, multiplicative, by a one-tenth factor of their delve lifedrain%. This applies across the board to all lifetaps. Level 50 baseline lifetaps get x1.05, Reaver styles get something like x1.08, etc.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I was completely unaware of this. Are there tests demonstrating this enhancement or is there a post/grab-bag from Broadsword (or the old Mythic days) addressing this? It appears to me that this should be removed in today's game.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I was also unaware of this.. However, my Wizard definitely hits way harder than my SM, and I have MOM on my SM, 0 MOM on my wiz, full WP.. Just throwing that out there. I obviously dont have all the calculations, or circumstances of the dps, but for as long as I can remember, a wiz has always been the highest DPS caster, hands down.
Your initial calculation of dividing the delving dps, but the time to cast, did not factor in the debuff a wizard has, to additionally add 10% of the dps, I think that'll put its overall damage much higher than a dark sm.
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I have found old threads on IGN stating this enhancement for LT but without anything to verify it. I'll test the DPS between spec LT and a couple spec nukes on Alb later today.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Doing some brief testing myself (on my Cab) it looks like the damage bonus applies but doesn't increase damage cap.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I did count this, although later in the post. The debuff increases DPS after the first nuke by anywhere from 12-17% depending on resists, but if for example a SM is assisting a RM they also get that 10% debuff, so there are a lot of variables.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Thank you for your reply, I think all we can ask for is to consider player feedback, which lately is very very much active in many places. Which is also cool, because it means we still have a dedicated playerbase.
Also, wish you to get better, please forgive us for demanding your attention too much lately.
I sure wouldn't play one solo.