Getting more subscribers/players works by just catering to pvp folks ... right!
DAoC has a heavy focus on PvP there is no doubt about that. Considering the game as a project I bet ya, building and scripting the PvE environment took more time than building the PvP environment. The ongoingin balancing for PvP also takes time - without a doubt - but so doese PvE bugfixing and mob balancing. This being said trying to run a successful busines plan by only catering to the need of one part of your prospect clients is ... short sighted, isn't it?
That's not actually true @Keltorius. Nearly every expansion that came out was focused on PvE and the game started its long decline between ToA and Catacombs which is also the time WoW was released. The long grind of ToA waned on players and WoW pulled them to something fresh.
The game is a mix between PvE and PvP, but in the founders own words, it was never meant to be competitive in the PvE world.
This game was developed to be PvP focused since its inception because that was what Mythic was known for at the time.
Can you elaborate on this? How was mythic known for PvP at the time. Based on what ppoints/facts/games did you make this statement. I am not challenging. I genuinely try to uderstand that rationale.
More PvE elements than PvP have been incorporated into the game over the years but the population declined anyways. It's been made quite clear that PvP, specifically RvR, is the primary reason this game still exists. You can grind or quest or explore in nearly any other MMO; however, you can only have large scale fights between players in DAoC pending CU. GW2 may be the only exception here but its WvW feature receives minimal development time.
DAOC was made specifically because of the success they found with a previous 3 way pvp game of theirs called Darkness Falls.
And, yes, I'm still curious about BS's plans and progress regarding Catacombs. This thread was full of people talking about how much work it would have been to just open up Catacombs content again for the few players that want to run around there for nostalgia, but never asking whether it's worth the resources to revamp it in the first place. Is this something people were asking for that I just never saw? Is a Catacombs revamp expected to bring back enough people that it's worth investing those resources into this instead of, say, RvR, or a way to incentivize people to do more of the already existing PvE?
My statements were based on a podcast that interviewed Mark Jacobs about DAoC. He also did one on Warhammer (episode 123).
Mythic steered away from what made DAoC unique in the golden age of MMOs. While some of the PvE content looks cool, it's by far inferior to other MMOs today. DAoC is now an old MMO that survives by nostalgia and it's PvP gameplay.
You're right about ESO having large scale PvP. Matt Firor, who works on ESO, is an old DAoC producer from the Mythic days. Hence, why some of the design choices for Cyrodiil mimic DAoC. I haven't had the time to delve too deep into ESO but definitely will continue to play it from time to time.
Regarding Catacombs closer, Broadsword bit off more than they could chew. Right now, they're in damage control from some of the poorly received changes over the years. Hence, why they're focused on EC, which wasn't a thought at the time Catacombs was being revamped.
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
I get your point. I also agree to it to a certain extend: I find it highly quistionable to close of content that people previously have paid for. That is, quite frankly, dubious business conduct. Whatever the reason may be they put out to the public. It certainly is not acceptable to say that it has been done to avoid potentional earning losses in the f2p model side of things.
DAOC was made specifically because of the success they found with a previous 3 way pvp game of theirs called Darkness Falls.
And, yes, I'm still curious about BS's plans and progress regarding Catacombs. This thread was full of people talking about how much work it would have been to just open up Catacombs content again for the few players that want to run around there for nostalgia, but never asking whether it's worth the resources to revamp it in the first place. Is this something people were asking for that I just never saw? Is a Catacombs revamp expected to bring back enough people that it's worth investing those resources into this instead of, say, RvR, or a way to incentivize people to do more of the already existing PvE?
I agree, if the people wanting to play that content are not there in numbers there isn't a business case to spent time & effort. Closing paid for content is a big 'No' in my books hence in my view this conversation shouldn't take place
Thank you for your contribution. I appreciate different view and angles.
Thank you. I will have a look into it. I am genuinely interested in this. I have made a 6 month commitment on 2 accounts and bought 2 max level toons, I'd like to stay informed to be able to make an educated decison come extension of the accounts. Appreciate your feedback!
My statements were based on a podcast that interviewed Mark Jacobs about DAoC. He also did one on Warhammer (episode 123).
Mythic steered away from what made DAoC unique in the golden age of MMOs. While some of the PvE content looks cool, it's by far inferior to other MMOs today. DAoC is now an old MMO that survives by nostalgia and it's PvP gameplay.
You're right about ESO having large scale PvP. Matt Firor, who works on ESO, is an old DAoC producer from the Mythic days. Hence, why some of the design choices for Cyrodiil mimic DAoC. I haven't had the time to delve too deep into ESO but definitely will continue to play it from time to time.
Regarding Catacombs closer, Broadsword bit off more than they could chew. Right now, they're in damage control from some of the poorly received changes over the years. Hence, why they're focused on EC, which wasn't a thought at the time Catacombs was being revamped.
Yeah, you're right, Matt's heritage and his influence to TESO is really obvious. Let's not get into an ESO in-depth conversation on a DAoC forum
Getting more subscribers/players works by just catering to pvp folks ... right!
DAoC has a heavy focus on PvP there is no doubt about that. Considering the game as a project I bet ya, building and scripting the PvE environment took more time than building the PvP environment. The ongoingin balancing for PvP also takes time - without a doubt - but so doese PvE bugfixing and mob balancing. This being said trying to run a successful busines plan by only catering to the need of one part of your prospect clients is ... short sighted, isn't it?
People still get worked up over PVE? I'd much rather they focused on NF/Balance/housing/UI/getting more subscribers/players.
Edit: oh, its albs.
I'm afraid you have a bunch of players that have put in feedback over many many years to nerf PvE so players could get into RvR more quickly. That's what this game is all about now and those that loved the PvE side of DAoC have long gone.
I agree with you Querbeet that many players are short sighted and don't see the whole picture and didn't see how PvE was important to this game.. Yes, I understand RvR is the end game and that's where some players really want to get too, but forgetting the PvE and just asking players who either new or returning to play awful content isn't exactly going to appeal players to want to stay.
I've been on about this from the get go because I knew very well that EC wasn't going to do well if you don't show good first impressions. I will tell you now my first impression of the game is awful if I'm honest, these players wont have a clue what this game is about because it's heavily been pushed towards lots and lots of quests and as I remember the old town quest was annoying to find 30 different NPC's. I prefer the old leveling of DAoC and exploring all different area's in the game and that's what appealed to most, that is why it worked and I believe still works to this day.
Right now, this game wont have success with the lack of communication and how long it takes for patches to be released. Yes u can go on about saying we can't do everything overnight but you've had 4-5 years and same things haven't been fixed. If you want to be serious and keep a subbing game, then you need to do things a little quicker and not take many years to fix things. In my honest opinion this game should be completely free as the population isn't good enough and that the standards aren't up to speed to online games these days.
This is not bashing, this is just my honest opinion from a previous paying customer.
You gotta be the RIGHT paying customer for BS to listen.
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
BS's mistake with PVE was all the pve they put in over the last few years have included 'must have' items....gear creep, with clunky, unpopular quests (ow and curse). They have not figured out how to keep pve fun for the small percentage in this game that enjoy it vs forcing pure pvp players to grind out quests they don't want to do. It drove many pvp players away.
It's not that shocking. DF revamp was an already-existant dungeon. Otherworlds revamp was based on classic zones (just duplicated with ghosts and isht). Cursed was a revamp of Dragon and they integrated Catacombs, so they closed off old Catacombs.
I've always been a PvE player... I RvR'd back in the day with my Eldy and had a blast, but, I was never really any good. Sure, I've gotten better over the years with my Ranger and such, but, I've always loved DAoC's PvE. But as stated before, when they made everything BP based, closed off Cata, and kinda forced RvR down the throats of everyone (and, as you know from the other posts, RvR is a touchy subject); it's just made this game so volatile. Stealth zergs - you're bad, Hero Zerg - you're bad, you play hib?? You're bad. Oh man, here comes IRC!! You're bad.
People have talked about 'Old DAoC' more often than not... Would it be cool to get that again? I sure as hell think so... But will it truly help? I guess the only way to know is to give it a shot...
‘Old Daoc’ will never be a thing because it was a multitude of things, community, realm pride, helpful players in abundance etc.
Daoc hayday for me was around year 2000 about a year before toa. Thousands online, action in all areas pve and rvr, the game catered to a massive audience. Even when toa and WoW appeared there were still a large player base for daoc but it was already showing it’s age.
WoW showed how to do pve, questing, modern UI’s, guidance of new players etc. A lot left daoc for wow whilst people were still levelling zerker golden scarab vest in stygia on scarabs during specific hours for xp.
I can only agree with solic, EC needs to be dropped and daoc become totally free and non crippled. Expand the mithril store for cosmetic items like eververse in D2. At this time or any other time in the future for doac, I believe another server is only going to dilute the player base and create more hostility and lack of faith in broadsword.
Any updates on Catacombs? I've been feeling nostalgic about DAoC, want to run around and experience the game again. Catacombs is the zone that left a great impression on me but it's been the longest since I've played it since it seems cut off.
Finding that I had lost access to Catacombs and the rest of the content that was made unavailable at the same time was the primary reason why I let my two subscriptions lapse soon after coming back to give Gaheris another try. It was extremely discouraging to discover that the best pve content was no longer available. I see no reason why the old content couldn't coexist with whatever may eventually happen in regard to a revamped Catacombs. The game has reused content from the beginning as in the case of some of the original dungeon layouts. It couldn't be that much effort to disable aurulite which is really what should have been done in the first place. Just let players choose whether to go to the old or the new Catacombs when they portal assuming new Catacombs actually ever happens. In the mean time this would greatly expand the pve options for the players. It would bring my two subscribed accounts back and it might even give me the incentive to buy another computer so I could resubscribe my third account again, too.
Can we get an official answer? @Carol_Broadsword ? Even if it's simply "We quit working on updating the Catacombs zones and have no plans on reopening them."
The idea of cosmetic stuff (especially for skinning) was pretty hot also. However I think the must have bandage now is what they are focusing on. This seems like a once the new server is up and running type of candy for the hold outs.
Can we get an official answer? @Carol_Broadsword ? Even if it's simply "We quit working on updating the Catacombs zones and have no plans on reopening them."
We discussed this recently in our Discord. DJ went into some specifics of what may or may not be involved and gave a bit more info.
To summarise, he said Catacombs is on our (his) list, not the top of it, it is a behemoth of a task and this is due to how Curse Campaign went in and what it did to the zones. The zones still exist, but much of what was in them would need to be evaluated to see what's still there and simply disabled, and what would need to be re-created from scratch.
He also stated that, because Catacombs is not at the top of the list, he hasn't had a chance to actually look and see what is and isn't there anymore.
This was a during a conversation so there's a bit more chat there. If you join the discord (https://discord.gg/daoc) and search by posts from Mogrothir, you'll be able to see that conversation and read it as it happened
This was a during a conversation so there's a bit more chat there. If you join the discord (https://discord.gg/daoc) and search by posts from Mogrothir, you'll be able to see that conversation and read it as it happened
To be perfectly honest, this is a really poor way to try and paper over some bad game design decisions. So instead of fixing the underlying problem they effectively yeet a whole expansion from the game. This was the same kind of bad decision making which led to the loss of Marfach Caverns and other connected zones but on a much more epic fail scale.
In 2018 it was apparently stated that they were re-introducing the content in a revised form and now they are saying there's no plans to re-introduce it.
My only gripe about Catacombs was I PAID for it back then along with all the other expansions. My other complaint is I have quests there on some of my toons I can’t delete. Like Terracite Truce on my Infi. lol
You're missing the point completely. The game is still running and had content removed at a net loss. That's not a great business model for any game that charges a monthly sub.
No, I know what you guys are saying. But seriously complaining about a loss of content when I'd guess less than 1% of the population used it towards the time when I closed (outside of Gaheris)
I used Catacombs more than ToA for leveling and general messing around when I didn't want to RvR. Always saw someone roaming either the main areas or popping in/out of the instanced dungeons. I think SI was more underused but maybe I'm wrong. Regardless, it provided options to keep players in game which BS has severely limited over the course of nearly 10 years. The easiest solution would have been skin farming and expansion of BP drops instead of mandatory endgame content that could eventually be bypassed but I think we're long passed that point for it to matter. Too bad when RvR is stale there is no incentive to stay logged in.
Personally, i have always used the PvE zones to goof around in when RvR was shite or there was no groups, sooner or later things would change and i would pop back out to RvR.
These days since cursed, OW and everything getting turned in to BP making PvE pointless, i switch games when RvR are shite, then pretty much never return that day and most likely a few days after, cause now im kind of discouraged and engaged in a different game or RL.
I wish they would bring Catacombs, task dungeons and old currencies, like scales, seals, etc. back, just give old currencies a convertion rate to BP at a vendor, give me something to do when RvR are beeing poopy, so im still in the game when the RvR situation changes. ( No ToA BP quests dos not count :P )
I recently came back and I find unfortunate the fact that everything PvE related is pretty much dead except for OW/Curse raids, which happen very rarely for EU players. Nobody goes to DF anymore, SI is just a distant memory, Catacombs got deleted from the game, etc. While I'm not in favor of mandatory grindy PvE, I like diversity and incentives to explore various zones.
A few months later and it still kinda blows me away that those zones as they existed pre-Curse apparently don't exist anywhere anymore. Like, BS apparently can't even rollback to a previous version. They're just entirely gone unless BS goes through the effort of manually undoing each and every change, to the point of needing to straight up remake content they deleted. At least if it had been SI there are other options out there for when I'm feeling nostalgic.
Teenage me took better care of preserving old drafts of my Dragonball Z / Sailor Moon crossover fanfiction than BS apparently does entire zones. Maybe that's why an official classic/SI server never happened, someone at BS needed more space for his crypto mining software and something had to go.
I recently came back and I find unfortunate the fact that everything PvE related is pretty much dead except for OW/Curse raids, which happen very rarely for EU players. Nobody goes to DF anymore, SI is just a distant memory, Catacombs got deleted from the game, etc. While I'm not in favor of mandatory grindy PvE, I like diversity and incentives to explore various zones.
Correct. The remaining community would complain about any and all PvE that was added. BS came up with a system that negates the need for PvE. Then, they nerfed one of the primary methods of farming for PvE (damage shield aggro and damage calc.) As it stands now, PvE in DAoC is effectively dead as a means of gear progression. It's not my favorite change, but it does cater the current demographic.
A few months later and it still kinda blows me away that those zones as they existed pre-Curse apparently don't exist anywhere anymore. Like, BS apparently can't even rollback to a previous version. They're just entirely gone unless BS goes through the effort of manually undoing each and every change, to the point of needing to straight up remake content they deleted. At least if it had been SI there are other options out there for when I'm feeling nostalgic.
Teenage me took better care of preserving old drafts of my Dragonball Z / Sailor Moon crossover fanfiction than BS apparently does entire zones. Maybe that's why an official classic/SI server never happened, someone at BS needed more space for his crypto mining software and something had to go.
That's not exactly uncommon. DAoC is a very old game and the idea of version control wasn't as prevalent as it is in modern MMO development. The zones were effectively dead, so there wasn't really any concern regarding their replacement until a few years after they were removed.
Comments
DAoC has a heavy focus on PvP there is no doubt about that. Considering the game as a project I bet ya, building and scripting the PvE environment took more time than building the PvP environment. The ongoingin balancing for PvP also takes time - without a doubt - but so doese PvE bugfixing and mob balancing. This being said trying to run a successful busines plan by only catering to the need of one part of your prospect clients is ... short sighted, isn't it?
If only TESO would not be that laggy....
And, yes, I'm still curious about BS's plans and progress regarding Catacombs. This thread was full of people talking about how much work it would have been to just open up Catacombs content again for the few players that want to run around there for nostalgia, but never asking whether it's worth the resources to revamp it in the first place. Is this something people were asking for that I just never saw? Is a Catacombs revamp expected to bring back enough people that it's worth investing those resources into this instead of, say, RvR, or a way to incentivize people to do more of the already existing PvE?
My statements were based on a podcast that interviewed Mark Jacobs about DAoC. He also did one on Warhammer (episode 123).
Mythic steered away from what made DAoC unique in the golden age of MMOs. While some of the PvE content looks cool, it's by far inferior to other MMOs today. DAoC is now an old MMO that survives by nostalgia and it's PvP gameplay.
You're right about ESO having large scale PvP. Matt Firor, who works on ESO, is an old DAoC producer from the Mythic days. Hence, why some of the design choices for Cyrodiil mimic DAoC. I haven't had the time to delve too deep into ESO but definitely will continue to play it from time to time.
Regarding Catacombs closer, Broadsword bit off more than they could chew. Right now, they're in damage control from some of the poorly received changes over the years. Hence, why they're focused on EC, which wasn't a thought at the time Catacombs was being revamped.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
I agree, if the people wanting to play that content are not there in numbers there isn't a business case to spent time & effort. Closing paid for content is a big 'No' in my books hence in my view this conversation shouldn't take place
Thank you for your contribution. I appreciate different view and angles.
Yeah, you're right, Matt's heritage and his influence to TESO is really obvious. Let's not get into an ESO in-depth conversation on a DAoC forum
I'm afraid you have a bunch of players that have put in feedback over many many years to nerf PvE so players could get into RvR more quickly. That's what this game is all about now and those that loved the PvE side of DAoC have long gone.
I agree with you Querbeet that many players are short sighted and don't see the whole picture and didn't see how PvE was important to this game.. Yes, I understand RvR is the end game and that's where some players really want to get too, but forgetting the PvE and just asking players who either new or returning to play awful content isn't exactly going to appeal players to want to stay.
I've been on about this from the get go because I knew very well that EC wasn't going to do well if you don't show good first impressions. I will tell you now my first impression of the game is awful if I'm honest, these players wont have a clue what this game is about because it's heavily been pushed towards lots and lots of quests and as I remember the old town quest was annoying to find 30 different NPC's. I prefer the old leveling of DAoC and exploring all different area's in the game and that's what appealed to most, that is why it worked and I believe still works to this day.
Right now, this game wont have success with the lack of communication and how long it takes for patches to be released. Yes u can go on about saying we can't do everything overnight but you've had 4-5 years and same things haven't been fixed. If you want to be serious and keep a subbing game, then you need to do things a little quicker and not take many years to fix things. In my honest opinion this game should be completely free as the population isn't good enough and that the standards aren't up to speed to online games these days.
This is not bashing, this is just my honest opinion from a previous paying customer.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
It's not that shocking. DF revamp was an already-existant dungeon. Otherworlds revamp was based on classic zones (just duplicated with ghosts and isht). Cursed was a revamp of Dragon and they integrated Catacombs, so they closed off old Catacombs.
shrug
People have talked about 'Old DAoC' more often than not... Would it be cool to get that again? I sure as hell think so... But will it truly help? I guess the only way to know is to give it a shot...
Daoc hayday for me was around year 2000 about a year before toa. Thousands online, action in all areas pve and rvr, the game catered to a massive audience. Even when toa and WoW appeared there were still a large player base for daoc but it was already showing it’s age.
WoW showed how to do pve, questing, modern UI’s, guidance of new players etc. A lot left daoc for wow whilst people were still levelling zerker golden scarab vest in stygia on scarabs during specific hours for xp.
I can only agree with solic, EC needs to be dropped and daoc become totally free and non crippled. Expand the mithril store for cosmetic items like eververse in D2. At this time or any other time in the future for doac, I believe another server is only going to dilute the player base and create more hostility and lack of faith in broadsword.
Demmps - Vampiir
Mimins - Bard
Dempseas - Warden
Dempsee - Hero
RIP aurulite farming.
Da fly family - 4501 4502 4503 4504 4506 4508 4509
Da spider family - 441 442 443 444 445 447
Ywain 1 Mid - Carlingford Hib - Tullamore Alb - Dalton
https://divoxutils.com/user-characters
The idea of cosmetic stuff (especially for skinning) was pretty hot also. However I think the must have bandage now is what they are focusing on. This seems like a once the new server is up and running type of candy for the hold outs.
We discussed this recently in our Discord. DJ went into some specifics of what may or may not be involved and gave a bit more info.
To summarise, he said Catacombs is on our (his) list, not the top of it, it is a behemoth of a task and this is due to how Curse Campaign went in and what it did to the zones. The zones still exist, but much of what was in them would need to be evaluated to see what's still there and simply disabled, and what would need to be re-created from scratch.
He also stated that, because Catacombs is not at the top of the list, he hasn't had a chance to actually look and see what is and isn't there anymore.
This was a during a conversation so there's a bit more chat there. If you join the discord (https://discord.gg/daoc) and search by posts from Mogrothir, you'll be able to see that conversation and read it as it happened
Broadsword Online Games
unless your name has 3 letters
In 2018 it was apparently stated that they were re-introducing the content in a revised form and now they are saying there's no plans to re-introduce it.
Sorry - this a vote of no confidence.
These days since cursed, OW and everything getting turned in to BP making PvE pointless, i switch games when RvR are shite, then pretty much never return that day and most likely a few days after, cause now im kind of discouraged and engaged in a different game or RL.
I wish they would bring Catacombs, task dungeons and old currencies, like scales, seals, etc. back, just give old currencies a convertion rate to BP at a vendor, give me something to do when RvR are beeing poopy, so im still in the game when the RvR situation changes. ( No ToA BP quests dos not count :P )
Teenage me took better care of preserving old drafts of my Dragonball Z / Sailor Moon crossover fanfiction than BS apparently does entire zones. Maybe that's why an official classic/SI server never happened, someone at BS needed more space for his crypto mining software and something had to go.
Correct. The remaining community would complain about any and all PvE that was added. BS came up with a system that negates the need for PvE. Then, they nerfed one of the primary methods of farming for PvE (damage shield aggro and damage calc.) As it stands now, PvE in DAoC is effectively dead as a means of gear progression. It's not my favorite change, but it does cater the current demographic.
That's not exactly uncommon. DAoC is a very old game and the idea of version control wasn't as prevalent as it is in modern MMO development. The zones were effectively dead, so there wasn't really any concern regarding their replacement until a few years after they were removed.
Doesn't really matter how we got here frankly.
Post in discord, I might buy it.
Da fly family - 4501 4502 4503 4504 4506 4508 4509
Da spider family - 441 442 443 444 445 447
Ywain 1 Mid - Carlingford Hib - Tullamore Alb - Dalton
https://divoxutils.com/user-characters
https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/aufnymf
Twitch Youtube Mixer