Over the course of nearly 20 years, it's very clear the quality of players in this community has diminished substantially. DAoC is absolutely playable in its current state, but attracts the wrong crowd. Yeah, I think BS is horrible at maintaining the game. Stupid bugs persist and simple QoL takes years to implement. But the players contribute the most in the day-to-day experience. It's absolutely frustrating when players actively dodge each other because they're afraid to die in a video game. Why play a PvP focused MMO when you have no interest in competing against other players in a game that is specifically designed for that?
LOL, just when i thought you got it you proove again that you are clueless
You can see the remaining population from a Managers of a closing factory point of view....
After you tell your employees that the factory will be closed ..... what will happen ?
The best and most educated will quickly find another job and leave.!!
After a while what is left is low education, low income, low skill.
And thats exacty what happens with DAOC. What is left today is the dreg of the former great DAOC-Family.
The game is far far away from being playable.
People are not fighting because it doesnt make any sense...
If there is no chance of winning nobody will fight, game or not...
There is no fun in getting farmed over and over...
Obviously players wll dodge fights where they have no fun...
Over the course of nearly 20 years, it's very clear the quality of players in this community has diminished substantially. DAoC is absolutely playable in its current state, but attracts the wrong crowd. Yeah, I think BS is horrible at maintaining the game. Stupid bugs persist and simple QoL takes years to implement. But the players contribute the most in the day-to-day experience. It's absolutely frustrating when players actively dodge each other because they're afraid to die in a video game. Why play a PvP focused MMO when you have no interest in competing against other players in a game that is specifically designed for that?
LOL, just when i thought you got it you proove again that you are clueless
You can see the remaining population from a Managers of a closing factory point of view....
After you tell your employees that the factory will be closed ..... what will happen ?
The best and most educated will quickly find another job and leave.!!
After a while what is left is low education, low income, low skill.
And thats exacty what happens with DAOC. What is left today is the dreg of the former great DAOC-Family.
The game is far far away from being playable.
People are not fighting because it doesnt make any sense...
If there is no chance of winning nobody will fight, game or not...
There is no fun in getting farmed over and over...
Obviously players wll dodge fights where they have no fun...
Mahv
Then why play? Seriously. This is a video game. It's not meant for everyone. This community wants the game to be molded around them instead of learning how to play it like every single game that's ever been made. The entitlement to sucking at a 20 year old game is astounding.
Any Hib group has SoS; you can't say that for any Mid or Alb group -> was my point, and the point still stands, even if you all are too dumb to realize it. The core, or as the smartest man in this thread described it - the "baseline", of a hib group is far stronger than that of the other realms.
No one cares about "carpace."
You're including clerics as a class that can "spec nuke?" -> that makes zero sense in the context of CORE FUNCTIONS in a group setting as that would leave the Alb group without purple body/energy/spirit resists and without a second healer.............................................................
I give up.
"Baseline" according to what? your arbitrary definition. DAoC has been around for nearly 20 years and for most of that time skalds and minstrels were "baseline" in mid and alb groups ... and wardens certainly weren't a staple back in OF. so if you are obsessed with having SoS then fine, include them in all your groups. These classes have utilities that the bard does not and vice versa. it's kind of what makes the game fun. You know, the dynamic nature of RvR, the 3 realms being different. I dont recall that 1 realm is dominant in 8v8, although if you ask the most informed people they will say that Alb is the best. presumably because of the theurgist ... but wait, wardens (who also get pbt) don't get pet spam?? so the hib "baseline" is weaker than the alb baseline group setup according to your strange logic.
would someone like you have come up with a game like DAoC? unlikely. be grateful that there are people a bit of imagination that have made this game possible for people like you to play it.
please dont take this personally but honestly the impression I get from your posts is that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the game.
Puter wrote: "Then why play? Seriously. This is a video game. It's not meant for everyone. This community wants the game to be molded around them instead of learning how to play it like every single game that's ever been made. The entitlement to sucking at a 20 year old game is astounding."
How about, because for a lot of people , trying to learn to "get good" and also to get the cash for the big template and the RR for all the powers and skills, just isn't happening by running out of a keep, looking for a good fight, and getting wiped by some RR-12 8-man which has been practicing for years.
And what wee see, is that people are Not playing the game because no one wants to pay monthly to spend 15 minutes prepping, three minutes roaming, and getting wiped by the same group over and over.
(They used to have fun, by the way ... which is why they re-sub. They keep hoping the game will change into a game they can enjoy again. And their money pays the devs who keep your game going .... you should be a little appreciative, perhaps?)
But since there aren't enough high-quality 8-man groups, the 8-m,an groups cannot keep entertained by fighting each other. The 8-mans go out, kill everything that moves, can't find fights (population is too low) and don't go out.
Or, if the 8-mans get zerged over and over, they find that not worth the time investment and don't go out to play.
The game is no longer fun for any but the most committed players, and even they cannot find the action the think is "fun" often enough to make playing worthwhile. So population continues to drop, people increasingly cannot find fights .... and then they come here and complain because they are getting Exactly what they asked for.
You want a game where everyone has to spend many months and many dollars to "get good,"---here it is. Stop complaining.
Hmmmm .... maybe what you Really want is a game which is more accessible at more levels to more levels of players so there are actually enough people in the frontier that they can all get some good action, which will inspire them to keep logging on and re-subbing?
You want a game for elites, well, there are not many elites. Enjoy each other. Quit coming here and complaining when you have exactly what you keep asking for ..... would be one point of view.
Learning how to play isn't a "get good" mentality. It's an absolute expectation and, in some cases, a requirement to play any game. We have a community that doesn't want to do that because "insert any complaint ever here". Sure, there are more abilities in modern DAoC than anytime before. However, the gameplay mechanics haven't changed in that time and is still heavily weighted in fights. I'm not expecting fresh players in a 20 year old game that is poorly advertised. But I do expect players who come back to learn their respective class. That's assuming they knew how to play it in the first place which may be a mistake on my end.
Yeah .... always great to blame others. But as has been stated, it isn't people who don't "learn their respective class." The problem is that learning to make maximum us of their classes, and all the numerous /use and /use 2 and learning all the necessary bits and pieces and how and when to use them .... a lot of this can only be done by playing, and if people log in, get rolled repeatedly, despite having the best gear they can afford, despite knowing the roles their character is supposed to play, despite having asked everyone for all the info so that they can learn it .... then before long people simply don't bother.
The population is plummeting for a reason. There aren't people for you to fight for a reason. And while you complain about people making excuses, you are coming here complaining. You want everyone to take you seriously, but you dismiss everyone else as being noobs and idiots who don't want to learn.
You can win this debate ... and it won't bring one more person back to the game, or keep one person who returned, but now finds that their templated 50s are basically useless for anything but feeding RPs to the RR12 groups which have 20 years of experience.
You are complaining that people who want to play in the big leagues need to play like big leaguers, but when people say there is no way to learn, you insult them. Then you complain because the league keeps shrinking.
Shooting off toes only lasts so long. Then, shooting at the feet, then working the way up the shins .... will the game (and the players) kneecap themselves before they start to listen to people who want to play?
I don't have any answers, but I think we can all see that before you simply won't have a game .... If you think it is bad now .... well, without some changes, it won't get better, eh?
I have no answers, but i can address the issues people raise here ... and if nobody wants to listen, I really don't care. I guess people just come here to vent.
What's the solution then? Make the game easier? How? BS can remove stun nuke, np. But that only affects one aspect of the game. What about the rest? I've seen people call for classic but it suffers from the same kind of disparity you're citing now. DAoC is a PvP focused MMO which intrinsically makes it a competitive game. You can blame me all you want, but it doesn't change the reality that this game dies when the community doesn't want to put effort forward to play it, regardless of server or patch setting. Btw, I'm not complaining. I'm pointing out the problem with banking on the developers to fix a player made issue.
Okay dude. I am not blaming you or anyone .... you have been blaming everyone. No need to blame Anyone ... things are what they are.
Also, I said twice that I don't have the solution.
You are counting on the devs to fix the issue? But you have zero ideas?
You say, "Then why play? Seriously. This is a video game. It's not meant for everyone. This community wants the game to be molded around them instead of learning how to play it like every single game that's ever been made."
So .... if a player can't make it work for him or her, cancel .... Hmmm, not really a solution.
Then this: "This community wants the game to be molded around them ... " Yup, you do. We all do. You want the game to be hypercompetitive and aimed at elites .... which is going to kill the game. We both see that. But don't complain about people who want the game to get healthy again---and maybe have a different idea of what the game should be than you do.
Anyway .... Not sure how you think the devs can fix anything .... or why you think it is just a player issue.
But dude .... if it is a player issue ... . you are the player. You want to be elite in a game where only elites can survive, and that is what is killing the game. The "player-made issue" is not an issue caused by the people who no longer play.
Look right in that mirror, dude .....
And yeah, you are complaining. You want others to play the game your way and are upset because they won't. How is that working for you?
Casual action is dead, BS killed it by cutting ports to EV towers, safe path, allowing porting to solo zone and indirectly allowing FG's to disband and get any where in any realm in 1.5 mins.
Keeps cannot be retaken without set 8mans getting there to defend against rag tag casuals.
Futile is not FUN.
This thread and my previous post stating "Hiberina is NOT Overpowered" are and have been concerned only with the one thing, FUN of the players and as a consequence RETAINING any new or returning players.
Noone can tell me it is Fun to defend against Hibs when unless you have a set coordinated 8 man with debuffs you cannot kill anything and "Feel" like you have achieved anything other than die or hide looking at walls.
Even when outnumbered by the same ratio Albs can have FUN defending against Mids and visa versa.
The Obelisk only prolongs your life but if you kill nothing and still die you get nothing or 1k rps for 30 min fight(lol).
Hib stun is the problem in keeps sieges, you can leave the stun untouched in every other way if you like but negate it at seiges.
Frankly I dont care about what the "Elite" players do, they have enough "Skill" to adapt.
I understand why Stormlord was given to NS but I dont see why its a problem to allow them battlermaster when Inf and SB's can do it.
(Note---I wrote this before I read Stoopiduser's last post. While I disagree on certain specifics .... I tend to agree overall. So .... given this caveat, i guess a lot of readers will skip the rest of the post. )
I guess my question is, How does a returning player "get good" without any sort of training, with no good guides, and by dying instantly in RvR?
I know a couple hotbars full of spells, styles, and abilities, but I am far from able to use them all well in the heat of battle. And it is the other couple bars full of abilities, /Use and /use2, which really sets apart the "good" players---the ablatives, shield, insta-heals, and bonus abilities which give the slight edge which cumulatively makes a group really strong.
On top of that is communication, and also knowing what the group needs and knowing how and when to do it---again, in the heat of battle.
I recall how Thid used to be mostly chaos, by Molvik (nobody bothered with the intervening BGs) was where a player would learn about getting overextended, chasing a kiting caster out of heal range, for instance---the place where players honed Group play skills. Everybody was more or less equal in gear and abilities, and getting back into action didn't take long. Where does one go for that now? 50-RvR is not a good school.
Second, what about people like myself, who can "play a character" but not to the elite level---and who never will be able to? I would be happy playing that Molvik-level game forever (and hopefully there will be something besides stealth groups in Molvik now and then) ? There were a lot of players who simply couldn't get good enough to hang with the elite groups. The elite groups farmed them until they quit and now the elite groups complain about low population.
If there were enough regular, clumsy, enthusiastic players to have their own fights, the elites could still fight the elites---and some of the clumsy enthusiasts would work they way up to elite skill levels and help the upper stratum of the game as well.
Everyone sees that the game is withering and will die. Everybody who wants to see it survive has to realize that there aren't going to be a lot of new elite-level players leaving other games for DAoC. Therefore, to Develop new elite players, the game has to attract less-skilled, more casual players, some of which will find they have the will and skill to reach elite status.
If there is nowhere for the less-than-excellent to go, soon there will be nowhere for the excellent players, either.
Yet, most people keep insisting that Something needs to change---but that there is no way to attract and host new players who might grow into the high-level players the other high-level players know they need, to keep playing.
Logical disconnects.
As for people complaining about Hib casted stun and such .... there will always be those complaints, and BS will always make some small adjustments ... but never enough to satisfy the greatest complainers. The action, such as it is , will move from place to place and style to style, and in every case some group of players will complain that the game is now ruined.
The game is dying---but Hib stun is not what is killing it. The fact that the bar to entry in unreasonably high, which drives away new and returning players, is the issue.
The game is dying---but Hib stun is not what is killing it. The fact that the bar to entry in unreasonably high, which drives away new and returning players, is the issue.
When there are about even numbers during a siege agree hib stun was not a problem in keeps, however it only takes a few nights or weeks 50 vs 20 for those numbers to drop when the the 20 can do nothing.
Not trying to argue here .... but I think because it is a very specific situation, any changes need to be carefully considered. If the odds are changed, any changes to stun might really hurt Hibs. if fights move away from keeps, Hibs might be hurt by stun changes. Unintended consequences are the issues which usually cannot be foreseen, but afterwards cause great regret and even worse issue.
Not saying casted stun should Not change, just that there might be better ways to adjust the situation. I really can't say. I don't want to come off as argumentative---but I don't think just removing or shrinking stun will "fix" the whole game.
Don't need to be an elite level player to be competent at the game. Join a guild. Group with similar players on a regular basis for small man. Learn a class as opposed to playing multiple. Start filling for 8mans or make another group if you feel confident enough. At this point, DAoC isn't going to attract much in terms of new players. So the returning players should be able to adapt to the game as it is. Core gameplay mechanics haven't changed. Just ability management.
Cutting ports to EV towers needed to happen, imo. All it did was encourage players to camp relic town and wait for an icon or flames, instantly port in, and zerg down anything nearby. Fun for players who camp, not for players who roam. Safety behind a barrier is what these players seem to want, hence the outcry against baseline stun in keeps but not a peep about any other form of gameplay.
Traditional RvR is dead. Time to move on and have more frequent Cale style events with rotating rules and objectives.
Don't need to be an elite level player to be competent at the game. Join a guild. Group with similar players on a regular basis for small man. Learn a class as opposed to playing multiple. Start filling for 8mans or make another group if you feel confident enough. At this point, DAoC isn't going to attract much in terms of new players. So the returning players should be able to adapt to the game as it is. Core gameplay mechanics haven't changed. Just ability management.
Cutting ports to EV towers needed to happen, imo. All it did was encourage players to camp relic town and wait for an icon or flames, instantly port in, and zerg down anything nearby. Fun for players who camp, not for players who roam. Safety behind a barrier is what these players seem to want, hence the outcry against baseline stun in keeps but not a peep about any other form of gameplay.
Traditional RvR is dead. Time to move on and have more frequent Cale style events with rotating rules and objectives.
so you would be in favor of not allowing players to group for say 10 - 15 mins after porting to the solo zone??
Don't need to be an elite level player to be competent at the game. Join a guild. Group with similar players on a regular basis for small man. Learn a class as opposed to playing multiple. Start filling for 8mans or make another group if you feel confident enough. At this point, DAoC isn't going to attract much in terms of new players. So the returning players should be able to adapt to the game as it is. Core gameplay mechanics haven't changed. Just ability management.
Cutting ports to EV towers needed to happen, imo. All it did was encourage players to camp relic town and wait for an icon or flames, instantly port in, and zerg down anything nearby. Fun for players who camp, not for players who roam. Safety behind a barrier is what these players seem to want, hence the outcry against baseline stun in keeps but not a peep about any other form of gameplay.
Traditional RvR is dead. Time to move on and have more frequent Cale style events with rotating rules and objectives.
so you would be in favor of not allowing players to group for say 10 - 15 mins after porting to the solo zone??
They could just move the "solo" zones to the far end of the maps so it would still take a good amount of time to port and run to the tower/keeps that switch hands alot.
Not trying to argue here .... but I think because it is a very specific situation, any changes need to be carefully considered. If the odds are changed, any changes to stun might really hurt Hibs. if fights move away from keeps, Hibs might be hurt by stun changes. Unintended consequences are the issues which usually cannot be foreseen, but afterwards cause great regret and even worse issue.
Not saying casted stun should Not change, just that there might be better ways to adjust the situation. I really can't say. I don't want to come off as argumentative---but I don't think just removing or shrinking stun will "fix" the whole game.
If they wanted to even castable stun out, they could just limit it to one hib caster.
Don't need to be an elite level player to be competent at the game. Join a guild. Group with similar players on a regular basis for small man. Learn a class as opposed to playing multiple. Start filling for 8mans or make another group if you feel confident enough. At this point, DAoC isn't going to attract much in terms of new players. So the returning players should be able to adapt to the game as it is. Core gameplay mechanics haven't changed. Just ability management.
Cutting ports to EV towers needed to happen, imo. All it did was encourage players to camp relic town and wait for an icon or flames, instantly port in, and zerg down anything nearby. Fun for players who camp, not for players who roam. Safety behind a barrier is what these players seem to want, hence the outcry against baseline stun in keeps but not a peep about any other form of gameplay.
Traditional RvR is dead. Time to move on and have more frequent Cale style events with rotating rules and objectives.
so you would be in favor of not allowing players to group for say 10 - 15 mins after porting to the solo zone??
Correct. While I like the ability to port around the frontiers quickly, I don't think groups should be allowed to port into the solo spots. The mazes would make more sense for groups and/or small mans.
Don't need to be an elite level player to be competent at the game. Join a guild. Group with similar players on a regular basis for small man. Learn a class as opposed to playing multiple. Start filling for 8mans or make another group if you feel confident enough. At this point, DAoC isn't going to attract much in terms of new players. So the returning players should be able to adapt to the game as it is. Core gameplay mechanics haven't changed. Just ability management.
Cutting ports to EV towers needed to happen, imo. All it did was encourage players to camp relic town and wait for an icon or flames, instantly port in, and zerg down anything nearby. Fun for players who camp, not for players who roam. Safety behind a barrier is what these players seem to want, hence the outcry against baseline stun in keeps but not a peep about any other form of gameplay.
Traditional RvR is dead. Time to move on and have more frequent Cale style events with rotating rules and objectives.
so you would be in favor of not allowing players to group for say 10 - 15 mins after porting to the solo zone??
Correct. While I like the ability to port around the frontiers quickly, I don't think groups should be allowed to port into the solo spots. The mazes would make more sense for groups and/or small mans.
I think OF had 2 enemy PKs in each realm. They could put something like that in the less traveled areas of the maps to promote action in there and to allow groups/small mans to find action quicker.
Not trying to argue here .... but I think because it is a very specific situation, any changes need to be carefully considered. If the odds are changed, any changes to stun might really hurt Hibs. if fights move away from keeps, Hibs might be hurt by stun changes. Unintended consequences are the issues which usually cannot be foreseen, but afterwards cause great regret and even worse issue.
Not saying casted stun should Not change, just that there might be better ways to adjust the situation. I really can't say. I don't want to come off as argumentative---but I don't think just removing or shrinking stun will "fix" the whole game.
Hib casters have a high amount of utility. Changing stun to a root wouldn't hurt them. I've always felt an eldritch has some of the highest amount of utility (second to a properly spec'd sorcerer). Mentalists are very versatile and are viable and two of their specs fit in with their alternative debuff lines of energy debuffing (one being a spec 209 dd and demez and all specs get a free speedwarp) or their most popular 8 man spec of light still fits with heat debuff. The only class that would be truly affected is the enchanter. If they were to retain a stun, I would recommend the damage type be changed from heat to a body/spirit/energy as they are the only class that can debuff their own stun up to 50% and is the same damage type as their main dd baseline spell. Hibs have a lot of utility. They just have to change their way of thinking and realize they can compete.
As I continue to mention, just search for DaelinDaoc on youtube and watch some of my videos. Everyone can see how easy it is to get rps in keep seige/defense as a hib caster.
Not trying to argue here .... but I think because it is a very specific situation, any changes need to be carefully considered. If the odds are changed, any changes to stun might really hurt Hibs. if fights move away from keeps, Hibs might be hurt by stun changes. Unintended consequences are the issues which usually cannot be foreseen, but afterwards cause great regret and even worse issue.
Not saying casted stun should Not change, just that there might be better ways to adjust the situation. I really can't say. I don't want to come off as argumentative---but I don't think just removing or shrinking stun will "fix" the whole game.
Hib casters have a high amount of utility. Changing stun to a root wouldn't hurt them. I've always felt an eldritch has some of the highest amount of utility (second to a properly spec'd sorcerer). Mentalists are very versatile and are viable and two of their specs fit in with their alternative debuff lines of energy debuffing (one being a spec 209 dd and demez and all specs get a free speedwarp) or their most popular 8 man spec of light still fits with heat debuff. The only class that would be truly affected is the enchanter. If they were to retain a stun, I would recommend the damage type be changed from heat to a body/spirit/energy as they are the only class that can debuff their own stun up to 50% and is the same damage type as their main dd baseline spell. Hibs have a lot of utility. They just have to change their way of thinking and realize they can compete.
As I continue to mention, just search for DaelinDaoc on youtube and watch some of my videos. Everyone can see how easy it is to get rps in keep seige/defense as a hib caster.
Enchanters do get a pet that can stun putting them close to par with the SM.
Not trying to argue here .... but I think because it is a very specific situation, any changes need to be carefully considered. If the odds are changed, any changes to stun might really hurt Hibs. if fights move away from keeps, Hibs might be hurt by stun changes. Unintended consequences are the issues which usually cannot be foreseen, but afterwards cause great regret and even worse issue.
Not saying casted stun should Not change, just that there might be better ways to adjust the situation. I really can't say. I don't want to come off as argumentative---but I don't think just removing or shrinking stun will "fix" the whole game.
Hib casters have a high amount of utility. Changing stun to a root wouldn't hurt them. I've always felt an eldritch has some of the highest amount of utility (second to a properly spec'd sorcerer). Mentalists are very versatile and are viable and two of their specs fit in with their alternative debuff lines of energy debuffing (one being a spec 209 dd and demez and all specs get a free speedwarp) or their most popular 8 man spec of light still fits with heat debuff. The only class that would be truly affected is the enchanter. If they were to retain a stun, I would recommend the damage type be changed from heat to a body/spirit/energy as they are the only class that can debuff their own stun up to 50% and is the same damage type as their main dd baseline spell. Hibs have a lot of utility. They just have to change their way of thinking and realize they can compete.
As I continue to mention, just search for DaelinDaoc on youtube and watch some of my videos. Everyone can see how easy it is to get rps in keep seige/defense as a hib caster.
Enchanters do get a pet that can stun putting them close to par with the SM.
While Enchanters do have a stun capable pet, I do not feel they have the same utility as a Spiritmaster. SMs have a lot of utility with their specs. They can have almost as much utility as a Sorc without bolt range interrupts. Enchanters and SM can both spec for damage resist debuffs for their own baseline damage spell lines, but an SM can also have dex/qui debuffs along with Str/con Debuffs with baseline Str and baseline Dex debuffs. Depending on their spec, one will be stronger than the other. They also can spec for a demezz, and have an intercepting pet that also stuns. They also have a pet that can disease. SMs have utility that Enchanters don't have. Enchanters fit well in a melee group set up with their enchantment line but most groups would prefer a ment instead for their utility. It's all about preference but I wouldn't compare an enchanter to an SM as being close to equal.
I still don’t see why they can’t reduce the stun to 5 secs the same as they did for slam.
Exactly the same gameplay was being employed, it was bad game design for solo hybrid tanks to kill players in the stun duration and it is still bad gameplay for solo hib casters to do it.
Some of the main problems is that they need to give casual players something to do, be it tower or keep quests, kill quests, anything so that there is something to do when the RVR is quiet no one likes to log in and wait for an hour for a group then log out with nothing to do.
They also need to close the skill gap at the very top end of the game, casuals need to be able to compete be that UI / interface help, fixing bugs and banning know bug abusers, and toning down abilities that allow elite groups to get away with ease such as speedwarps and item charges are but a few things that should be addressed.
Not trying to argue here .... but I think because it is a very specific situation, any changes need to be carefully considered. If the odds are changed, any changes to stun might really hurt Hibs. if fights move away from keeps, Hibs might be hurt by stun changes. Unintended consequences are the issues which usually cannot be foreseen, but afterwards cause great regret and even worse issue.
Not saying casted stun should Not change, just that there might be better ways to adjust the situation. I really can't say. I don't want to come off as argumentative---but I don't think just removing or shrinking stun will "fix" the whole game.
Hib casters have a high amount of utility. Changing stun to a root wouldn't hurt them. I've always felt an eldritch has some of the highest amount of utility (second to a properly spec'd sorcerer). Mentalists are very versatile and are viable and two of their specs fit in with their alternative debuff lines of energy debuffing (one being a spec 209 dd and demez and all specs get a free speedwarp) or their most popular 8 man spec of light still fits with heat debuff. The only class that would be truly affected is the enchanter. If they were to retain a stun, I would recommend the damage type be changed from heat to a body/spirit/energy as they are the only class that can debuff their own stun up to 50% and is the same damage type as their main dd baseline spell. Hibs have a lot of utility. They just have to change their way of thinking and realize they can compete.
As I continue to mention, just search for DaelinDaoc on youtube and watch some of my videos. Everyone can see how easy it is to get rps in keep seige/defense as a hib caster.
Enchanters do get a pet that can stun putting them close to par with the SM.
While Enchanters do have a stun capable pet, I do not feel they have the same utility as a Spiritmaster. SMs have a lot of utility with their specs. They can have almost as much utility as a Sorc without bolt range interrupts. Enchanters and SM can both spec for damage resist debuffs for their own baseline damage spell lines, but an SM can also have dex/qui debuffs along with Str/con Debuffs with baseline Str and baseline Dex debuffs. Depending on their spec, one will be stronger than the other. They also can spec for a demezz, and have an intercepting pet that also stuns. They also have a pet that can disease. SMs have utility that Enchanters don't have. Enchanters fit well in a melee group set up with their enchantment line but most groups would prefer a ment instead for their utility. It's all about preference but I wouldn't compare an enchanter to an SM as being close to equal.
I was talking about the pet stun aspect if they lost baseline stun, they would need to tweak some spec options to compensate as far as class abilities.
I still don’t see why they can’t reduce the stun to 5 secs the same as they did for slam.
Exactly the same game play was being employed, it was bad game design for solo hybrid tanks to kill players in the stun duration and it is still bad gameplay for solo hib casters to do it.
Some of the main problems is that they need to give casual players something to do, be it tower or keep quests, kill quests, anything so that there is something to do when the RVR is quiet no one likes to log in and wait for an hour for a group then log out with nothing to do.
They also need to close the skill gap at the very top end of the game, casuals need to be able to compete be that UI / interface help, fixing bugs and banning know bug abusers, and toning down abilities that allow elite groups to get away with ease such as speedwarps and item charges are but a few things that should be addressed.
1. If they were too reduce stun to 5 sec, it should be for every realm. not just hib
2. There is no way to close the skill gap between "elite groups" and not elite groups other than Get Better. If you dumb down the game do you really think its going to hurt the elite groups? SW are not only used by "Elite Groups"
Closing the skill gap is an interesting one, in the recent Caledonia events, the skill gap is pretty even until about 40+ where things like speed warps are put into play then the game diverges. Add high end gear and then casuals are doomed to be farmed.
As lots of people have said here new and casual players need to be given a chance, the game needs to be fun
If these players are reduced to being farmed over and over until they quit or in a very very small number of cases “get good” the games pretty much done.
The best way to help casual players is to design more and better objectives. Large scale action is based on a system of towers/keeps/relics. We need similar creative "systems" aimed at both solo players and roaming groups, respectively.
Daily/Weekly quests have excessive focus on kills (I despise these "quests"). The brilliant system of towers/keeps/relics have zero focus on kills. There is a lesson to be learned here. Forget about kills when you design objectives. Pretend that the game is about something else (introduce new objectives).
Oh dear, few of us convinced Guild to start making stuff on Mid but it's not looking good for EU Mid BG they are reaching the same point Alb was at 2 years ago.
Just need a week or two and there will be another 8-10 mids in the EU BG on Muylasav nights but we have no gear over there and have to run Curse and OW alot.
No it took Hibs having large numbers verses low percentage of defenders to cause players to have no fun in keeps while defending and its taken years for it to affect US primetime instead of just EU prime.
And the lower the defenders the worse it gets i suggest you watch https://twitch.tv/borgio22 for the past few EU Prime Mids defending keeps this has been happening for years to Alb and yet they continue to allow it.
Low numbers against Hib stun causes defenders to log frustrated and dont come back.
and they wonder why this game has been dead for YEARS. The reason I will NEVER return is how they outright LIED to us about bring a classic server back. Seeing that lie I went straight to the "other" server and never looked back. Ever wonder why the "other" server has 2-3 times the pop on it than live? hmmm Live is being ran by noone. cheats, exploits and hacking is constant. nah lol I just stopped by to see the crying.
My issue is with game mechanics, daoc is a bout timers and control. Feels old and cluncky.
I did watch some twitch streams, watching a hunter. Macroing runthrough, back style/anytime. Honestly repeating that 20 times in seems just meh.
Good step forward would be be remove back up styles and put some actual skill back into the game.
Your issue with daoc is that it's daoc? Makes sense.
Ummmm .... what he Actually said was that macroing has made the game too easy for people who use it versus people who don't ..... so the choice is "Cheat or Die," and the third option is, "Play something else," which is why people are here complaining about no population.
Most of the "issues" people bring up are due to low population. If population was higher, you wouldn't notice or be affected by most of the things people are bringing up.
My issue is with game mechanics, daoc is a bout timers and control. Feels old and cluncky.
I did watch some twitch streams, watching a hunter. Macroing runthrough, back style/anytime. Honestly repeating that 20 times in seems just meh.
Good step forward would be be remove back up styles and put some actual skill back into the game.
Your issue with daoc is that it's daoc? Makes sense.
Ummmm .... what he Actually said was that macroing has made the game too easy for people who use it versus people who don't ..... so the choice is "Cheat or Die," and the third option is, "Play something else," which is why people are here complaining about no population.
My issue is with game mechanics, daoc is a bout timers and control. Feels old and cluncky. is what he wrote. I replied that this is daoc.
and they wonder why this game has been dead for YEARS. The reason I will NEVER return is how they outright LIED to us about bring a classic server back. Seeing that lie I went straight to the "other" server and never looked back. Ever wonder why the "other" server has 2-3 times the pop on it than live? hmmm Live is being ran by noone. cheats, exploits and hacking is constant. nah lol I just stopped by to see the crying.
To be fair, that was an entirely different company. Broadsword's position on a different server hasn't shifted much from : 'i'll be an alternate ruleset.' They have tossed around a few ideas in regards to 'progression' servers and the like, but nothing definitive. As far as 'hacking' and 'cheats' that hasn't been a thing for quite some time now.
Comments
Not according to Mid or Alb.
Puter wrote:
Over the course of nearly 20 years, it's very clear the quality of players in this community has diminished substantially. DAoC is absolutely playable in its current state, but attracts the wrong crowd. Yeah, I think BS is horrible at maintaining the game. Stupid bugs persist and simple QoL takes years to implement. But the players contribute the most in the day-to-day experience. It's absolutely frustrating when players actively dodge each other because they're afraid to die in a video game. Why play a PvP focused MMO when you have no interest in competing against other players in a game that is specifically designed for that?
LOL, just when i thought you got it you proove again that you are clueless
You can see the remaining population from a Managers of a closing factory point of view....
After you tell your employees that the factory will be closed ..... what will happen ?
The best and most educated will quickly find another job and leave.!!
After a while what is left is low education, low income, low skill.
And thats exacty what happens with DAOC. What is left today is the dreg of the former great DAOC-Family.
The game is far far away from being playable.
People are not fighting because it doesnt make any sense...
If there is no chance of winning nobody will fight, game or not...
There is no fun in getting farmed over and over...
Obviously players wll dodge fights where they have no fun...
Mahv
Then why play? Seriously. This is a video game. It's not meant for everyone. This community wants the game to be molded around them instead of learning how to play it like every single game that's ever been made. The entitlement to sucking at a 20 year old game is astounding.
"Baseline" according to what? your arbitrary definition. DAoC has been around for nearly 20 years and for most of that time skalds and minstrels were "baseline" in mid and alb groups ... and wardens certainly weren't a staple back in OF. so if you are obsessed with having SoS then fine, include them in all your groups. These classes have utilities that the bard does not and vice versa. it's kind of what makes the game fun. You know, the dynamic nature of RvR, the 3 realms being different. I dont recall that 1 realm is dominant in 8v8, although if you ask the most informed people they will say that Alb is the best. presumably because of the theurgist ... but wait, wardens (who also get pbt) don't get pet spam?? so the hib "baseline" is weaker than the alb baseline group setup according to your strange logic.
would someone like you have come up with a game like DAoC? unlikely. be grateful that there are people a bit of imagination that have made this game possible for people like you to play it.
please dont take this personally but honestly the impression I get from your posts is that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the game.
How about, because for a lot of people , trying to learn to "get good" and also to get the cash for the big template and the RR for all the powers and skills, just isn't happening by running out of a keep, looking for a good fight, and getting wiped by some RR-12 8-man which has been practicing for years.
And what wee see, is that people are Not playing the game because no one wants to pay monthly to spend 15 minutes prepping, three minutes roaming, and getting wiped by the same group over and over.
(They used to have fun, by the way ... which is why they re-sub. They keep hoping the game will change into a game they can enjoy again. And their money pays the devs who keep your game going .... you should be a little appreciative, perhaps?)
But since there aren't enough high-quality 8-man groups, the 8-m,an groups cannot keep entertained by fighting each other. The 8-mans go out, kill everything that moves, can't find fights (population is too low) and don't go out.
Or, if the 8-mans get zerged over and over, they find that not worth the time investment and don't go out to play.
The game is no longer fun for any but the most committed players, and even they cannot find the action the think is "fun" often enough to make playing worthwhile. So population continues to drop, people increasingly cannot find fights .... and then they come here and complain because they are getting Exactly what they asked for.
You want a game where everyone has to spend many months and many dollars to "get good,"---here it is. Stop complaining.
Hmmmm .... maybe what you Really want is a game which is more accessible at more levels to more levels of players so there are actually enough people in the frontier that they can all get some good action, which will inspire them to keep logging on and re-subbing?
You want a game for elites, well, there are not many elites. Enjoy each other. Quit coming here and complaining when you have exactly what you keep asking for ..... would be one point of view.
The population is plummeting for a reason. There aren't people for you to fight for a reason. And while you complain about people making excuses, you are coming here complaining. You want everyone to take you seriously, but you dismiss everyone else as being noobs and idiots who don't want to learn.
You can win this debate ... and it won't bring one more person back to the game, or keep one person who returned, but now finds that their templated 50s are basically useless for anything but feeding RPs to the RR12 groups which have 20 years of experience.
You are complaining that people who want to play in the big leagues need to play like big leaguers, but when people say there is no way to learn, you insult them. Then you complain because the league keeps shrinking.
Shooting off toes only lasts so long. Then, shooting at the feet, then working the way up the shins .... will the game (and the players) kneecap themselves before they start to listen to people who want to play?
I don't have any answers, but I think we can all see that before you simply won't have a game .... If you think it is bad now .... well, without some changes, it won't get better, eh?
I have no answers, but i can address the issues people raise here ... and if nobody wants to listen, I really don't care. I guess people just come here to vent.
It's all good.
Also, I said twice that I don't have the solution.
You are counting on the devs to fix the issue? But you have zero ideas?
You say, "Then why play? Seriously. This is a video game. It's not meant for everyone. This community wants the game to be molded around them instead of learning how to play it like every single game that's ever been made."
So .... if a player can't make it work for him or her, cancel .... Hmmm, not really a solution.
Then this: "This community wants the game to be molded around them ... " Yup, you do. We all do. You want the game to be hypercompetitive and aimed at elites .... which is going to kill the game. We both see that. But don't complain about people who want the game to get healthy again---and maybe have a different idea of what the game should be than you do.
Anyway .... Not sure how you think the devs can fix anything .... or why you think it is just a player issue.
But dude .... if it is a player issue ... . you are the player. You want to be elite in a game where only elites can survive, and that is what is killing the game. The "player-made issue" is not an issue caused by the people who no longer play.
Look right in that mirror, dude .....
And yeah, you are complaining. You want others to play the game your way and are upset because they won't. How is that working for you?
Keeps cannot be retaken without set 8mans getting there to defend against rag tag casuals.
Futile is not FUN.
This thread and my previous post stating "Hiberina is NOT Overpowered" are and have been concerned only with the one thing, FUN of the players and as a consequence RETAINING any new or returning players.
Noone can tell me it is Fun to defend against Hibs when unless you have a set coordinated 8 man with debuffs you cannot kill anything and "Feel" like you have achieved anything other than die or hide looking at walls.
Even when outnumbered by the same ratio Albs can have FUN defending against Mids and visa versa.
The Obelisk only prolongs your life but if you kill nothing and still die you get nothing or 1k rps for 30 min fight(lol).
Hib stun is the problem in keeps sieges, you can leave the stun untouched in every other way if you like but negate it at seiges.
Frankly I dont care about what the "Elite" players do, they have enough "Skill" to adapt.
I understand why Stormlord was given to NS but I dont see why its a problem to allow them battlermaster when Inf and SB's can do it.
I guess my question is, How does a returning player "get good" without any sort of training, with no good guides, and by dying instantly in RvR?
I know a couple hotbars full of spells, styles, and abilities, but I am far from able to use them all well in the heat of battle. And it is the other couple bars full of abilities, /Use and /use2, which really sets apart the "good" players---the ablatives, shield, insta-heals, and bonus abilities which give the slight edge which cumulatively makes a group really strong.
On top of that is communication, and also knowing what the group needs and knowing how and when to do it---again, in the heat of battle.
I recall how Thid used to be mostly chaos, by Molvik (nobody bothered with the intervening BGs) was where a player would learn about getting overextended, chasing a kiting caster out of heal range, for instance---the place where players honed Group play skills. Everybody was more or less equal in gear and abilities, and getting back into action didn't take long. Where does one go for that now? 50-RvR is not a good school.
Second, what about people like myself, who can "play a character" but not to the elite level---and who never will be able to? I would be happy playing that Molvik-level game forever (and hopefully there will be something besides stealth groups in Molvik now and then) ? There were a lot of players who simply couldn't get good enough to hang with the elite groups. The elite groups farmed them until they quit and now the elite groups complain about low population.
If there were enough regular, clumsy, enthusiastic players to have their own fights, the elites could still fight the elites---and some of the clumsy enthusiasts would work they way up to elite skill levels and help the upper stratum of the game as well.
Everyone sees that the game is withering and will die. Everybody who wants to see it survive has to realize that there aren't going to be a lot of new elite-level players leaving other games for DAoC. Therefore, to Develop new elite players, the game has to attract less-skilled, more casual players, some of which will find they have the will and skill to reach elite status.
If there is nowhere for the less-than-excellent to go, soon there will be nowhere for the excellent players, either.
Yet, most people keep insisting that Something needs to change---but that there is no way to attract and host new players who might grow into the high-level players the other high-level players know they need, to keep playing.
Logical disconnects.
As for people complaining about Hib casted stun and such .... there will always be those complaints, and BS will always make some small adjustments ... but never enough to satisfy the greatest complainers. The action, such as it is , will move from place to place and style to style, and in every case some group of players will complain that the game is now ruined.
The game is dying---but Hib stun is not what is killing it. The fact that the bar to entry in unreasonably high, which drives away new and returning players, is the issue.
When there are about even numbers during a siege agree hib stun was not a problem in keeps, however it only takes a few nights or weeks 50 vs 20 for those numbers to drop when the the 20 can do nothing.
Not saying casted stun should Not change, just that there might be better ways to adjust the situation. I really can't say. I don't want to come off as argumentative---but I don't think just removing or shrinking stun will "fix" the whole game.
Cutting ports to EV towers needed to happen, imo. All it did was encourage players to camp relic town and wait for an icon or flames, instantly port in, and zerg down anything nearby. Fun for players who camp, not for players who roam. Safety behind a barrier is what these players seem to want, hence the outcry against baseline stun in keeps but not a peep about any other form of gameplay.
Traditional RvR is dead. Time to move on and have more frequent Cale style events with rotating rules and objectives.
so you would be in favor of not allowing players to group for say 10 - 15 mins after porting to the solo zone??
They could just move the "solo" zones to the far end of the maps so it would still take a good amount of time to port and run to the tower/keeps that switch hands alot.
If they wanted to even castable stun out, they could just limit it to one hib caster.
Correct. While I like the ability to port around the frontiers quickly, I don't think groups should be allowed to port into the solo spots. The mazes would make more sense for groups and/or small mans.
I think OF had 2 enemy PKs in each realm. They could put something like that in the less traveled areas of the maps to promote action in there and to allow groups/small mans to find action quicker.
Hib casters have a high amount of utility. Changing stun to a root wouldn't hurt them. I've always felt an eldritch has some of the highest amount of utility (second to a properly spec'd sorcerer). Mentalists are very versatile and are viable and two of their specs fit in with their alternative debuff lines of energy debuffing (one being a spec 209 dd and demez and all specs get a free speedwarp) or their most popular 8 man spec of light still fits with heat debuff. The only class that would be truly affected is the enchanter. If they were to retain a stun, I would recommend the damage type be changed from heat to a body/spirit/energy as they are the only class that can debuff their own stun up to 50% and is the same damage type as their main dd baseline spell. Hibs have a lot of utility. They just have to change their way of thinking and realize they can compete.
As I continue to mention, just search for DaelinDaoc on youtube and watch some of my videos. Everyone can see how easy it is to get rps in keep seige/defense as a hib caster.
Enchanters do get a pet that can stun putting them close to par with the SM.
While Enchanters do have a stun capable pet, I do not feel they have the same utility as a Spiritmaster. SMs have a lot of utility with their specs. They can have almost as much utility as a Sorc without bolt range interrupts. Enchanters and SM can both spec for damage resist debuffs for their own baseline damage spell lines, but an SM can also have dex/qui debuffs along with Str/con Debuffs with baseline Str and baseline Dex debuffs. Depending on their spec, one will be stronger than the other. They also can spec for a demezz, and have an intercepting pet that also stuns. They also have a pet that can disease. SMs have utility that Enchanters don't have. Enchanters fit well in a melee group set up with their enchantment line but most groups would prefer a ment instead for their utility. It's all about preference but I wouldn't compare an enchanter to an SM as being close to equal.
Exactly the same gameplay was being employed, it was bad game design for solo hybrid tanks to kill players in the stun duration and it is still bad gameplay for solo hib casters to do it.
Some of the main problems is that they need to give casual players something to do, be it tower or keep quests, kill quests, anything so that there is something to do when the RVR is quiet no one likes to log in and wait for an hour for a group then log out with nothing to do.
They also need to close the skill gap at the very top end of the game, casuals need to be able to compete be that UI / interface help, fixing bugs and banning know bug abusers, and toning down abilities that allow elite groups to get away with ease such as speedwarps and item charges are but a few things that should be addressed.
I was talking about the pet stun aspect if they lost baseline stun, they would need to tweak some spec options to compensate as far as class abilities.
In fact, there are a lot of good points made in This thread https://forum.darkageofcamelot.com/discussion/4062/reduce-casting-stun-duration#latest
Remember same problmes when classic closed down, Lack of players just screws the meta.
1. If they were too reduce stun to 5 sec, it should be for every realm. not just hib
2. There is no way to close the skill gap between "elite groups" and not elite groups other than Get Better. If you dumb down the game do you really think its going to hurt the elite groups? SW are not only used by "Elite Groups"
As lots of people have said here new and casual players need to be given a chance, the game needs to be fun
If these players are reduced to being farmed over and over until they quit or in a very very small number of cases “get good” the games pretty much done.
Daily/Weekly quests have excessive focus on kills (I despise these "quests"). The brilliant system of towers/keeps/relics have zero focus on kills. There is a lesson to be learned here. Forget about kills when you design objectives. Pretend that the game is about something else (introduce new objectives).
Da fly family - 4501 4502 4503 4504 4505 4506 4508 4509
Da spider family - 441 442 443 444 445 447
Ywain 1 Mid - Carlingford Hib - Tullamore Alb - Dalton
https://divoxutils.com/user-characters
Just need a week or two and there will be another 8-10 mids in the EU BG on Muylasav nights but we have no gear over there and have to run Curse and OW alot.
And the lower the defenders the worse it gets i suggest you watch https://twitch.tv/borgio22 for the past few EU Prime Mids defending keeps this has been happening for years to Alb and yet they continue to allow it.
Low numbers against Hib stun causes defenders to log frustrated and dont come back.
I did watch some twitch streams, watching a hunter. Macroing runthrough, back style/anytime. Honestly repeating that 20 times in seems just meh.
Good step forward would be be remove back up styles and put some actual skill back into the game.
Your issue with daoc is that it's daoc? Makes sense.
My issue is with game mechanics, daoc is a bout timers and control. Feels old and cluncky. is what he wrote. I replied that this is daoc.
To be fair, that was an entirely different company. Broadsword's position on a different server hasn't shifted much from : 'i'll be an alternate ruleset.' They have tossed around a few ideas in regards to 'progression' servers and the like, but nothing definitive. As far as 'hacking' and 'cheats' that hasn't been a thing for quite some time now.
Work more hours. When cale comes back take a week off. This makes this most sense for anyone playing catch up