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Keep and Relic Adjustment Live Notes
Carol_Broadsword <!–– closing ID=FDP or NOFDP 2001 ––>
Relic Guard Dynamic Scaling
Protection Obelisk and Keep Upgrade System
- Based on feedback and in an effort to make keeps and a small number of relics easier to defend for outnumbered populations as well as to reduce the difficulty of attacking realms that hold 5+ relics, all Elite Relic guards, relic temple guards, and the normal but high-purple con "Elder" guards will now scale their difficulty up and down depending on how many relics a realm holds.
- Realms only holding 0-1 relics will see the highest difficulty guards defending their realms keeps and relic temples.
- Realms with 2 relics will see little to no change from current guard difficulties.
- Realms holding 3 or 4 relics will have slightly less powerful but still red-purple guards defending their keeps and relic temples.
- Realms holding 5 or more relics will have significantly less powerful, orange-red guards defending their keeps and relic temples.
- Currently the number of guards spawned will not change but this is another lever we can investigate if the above changes do not go far enough in addressing these concerns.
- Based on feedback and in an effort to allow other class archetypes room to shine in keep sieges, the following changes have been made to heavy tank climbing spikes:
- Hero, Warrior, and Armsmans' climbing spikes ability has had its cooldown increased from 60 seconds to 3 minutes.
- Additionally, a new debuff lasting 45 seconds is fired when climbing-spikes is initiated that increases damage the Hero, Warrior, or Armsman takes by 15% from all sources.
Protection Obelisk and Keep Upgrade System
- A new system's first pass has been implemented that will enable players to upgrade specific aspects of a specific keep to better tailor its defense as well as to get more use out of keeps their realm owns.
- Each feature will be added individually so that game and siege balance can be observed with these new dynamics one at a time.
- Keep Upgrades will be purchasable at the new Master Stone Mason NPC to the left of the staircase in each realm's inner keep.
- Please note that this feature is only available in New Frontier keeps and is not available in any tower or Knoc Meayll's keep.
- The first keep upgrade available is a Protection Obelisk that can be purchased for bounty points.
- This obelisk spawns to the right of the staircase on the main floor of the inner keep.
- When the Protection Obelisk is spawned, keep defenders can right-click their keep lord to receive a significant damage reduction buff so long as they stay in the inner keep's lord room or roof area.
- Leaving those areas will result in the buff being removed though players can simply revisit their lord to get the buff again.
- Like relic guards, the effectiveness of this buff will scale based on the number of relics your realm owns.
- Realms with 5+ relics cannot obtain this buff.
- Realms with 3-4 relics receive a 25% damage reduction buff when staying within the lord room or keep roof areas.
- Realms with 2 relics receive a 50% damage reduction buff when staying within the lord room or keep roof areas.
- Realms with 0-1 relics receive a 75% damage reduction buff when staying within the lord room or keep roof areas.
- The aim of this upgrade is to improve the ability for defenders stuck inside the inner keep to take more risks and be less fearful of attacks by attackers in the courtyard.
- Additionally, we hope to see more dynamic battles in and around the 1st floor of the inner keep as enemy realms will want to destroy the Protection Obelisk before advancing into the lord room and facing significant damage reduction buffs on their enemies while defenders will want to maintain this advantage.
- We very much look forward to observing how this first upgrade fares and what new tactics we may see out in the Frontiers!
- There are several other additional keep upgrades being discussed as well as more ways to redeem the upgrades - by completing myriad gathering quests around the frontier - so stay tuned!
Relic and Keep Reset
All of the above notes are now live but in order to facilitate these new changes and dynamics all keeps and relics will be reverted to their default state at 11 AM EST / 4 PM GMT tomorrow, December 18th.
DAoC Community Lead
Broadsword Online Games
Broadsword Online Games
it only lasts 10 minutes???
it's for every defender who comes and clicks on the lord after the buff is purchased by someone.
i guess bowatg means that the siege will last 10 minutes, not that the buff lasts 10 minutes. the pillar that makes that the lord gives that buffs stays until the pillar is destroyed or the keep is taken.
well today we had two siege fights, first one we lost massively because we thought we would defend the lord room, but when hibs took the bottom floor they destroyed the pillar and we lost the buff and they they came up and rofl stomped us. second siege my strategy was to fight on the bottom floor and defend the bottom floor at all cost and we had one of the biggest and longest fights on the bottom floor of the CK in ages and we ended up winning.
i had a lot of doubt about the new system and it might still need a little bit of tweaking, but from the little experience i've had with it today it seems to work. it certainly seems to motivate people more to go and defend ... which is a big thing.
the 'meta' has changed and new strategies are needed.
1 irc group could hold a alb or mid Zerg off with this I can see it ending in tears
Broadsword Online Games
hm... a lot of questions remain at this moment. so far my bg has defended two keeps and we've retaken one keep. the hibs have always been able to decimate the people on the roof of the CK with impunity and they certainly have not been able to do this anymore to the same degree. being on the roof of a CK always felt a bit like being ... shot at like fish in a barrel... when defending against hibs. if hibs had l.o.s. on one of our casters for like one second, that caster ... stun-nuke-nuke dead. that doesn't go so easy anymore. it's a big difference. i'm sure our casters like that change and i'm sure the hibs are very disturbed by that change. i would need a lot more keep fights to be able to pass a fair judgement about whether that change is good or if it's a too big change ... i can't tell atm. maybe they need to change the percentage from 25, 50, 75 to 20 - 40 - 60 or maybe to 15 - 30 - 45... i can't pass judgement on that YET.
you mention irc (or equivalent) defending a keep against far greater number ... i'm not sure if they can. my experience is that if an elite group of hibs defends a keep, they win by actually coming out of the keep or out of the CK, and killing people around the keep or in the courtyard, not by turtling inside of the keep/ck....
it would be an interesting question to see if the irc (or equivalent), when on the offensive vs a keep, can actually kill people on the roof from a CK with casters.
the fight for a CK has changed ... to some degree. the deciding phase seems to have switched from a fight for the lord room to a fight for the bottom floor. but the abs buff doesn't reach to the bottom floor and the balcony.
for now, i'll just reserve judgment until i've got more experience with the new system. i'm pretty sure the new system isn't at it's final version yet.eems to have switched from a fight for the lord room to a fight for the bottom floor. but the abs buff doesn't
It's a tough balance to strike. Ideally BS will come out with a new RP calculation that heavily nerfs RPs gained when zerging people down. This way zergs can focus on keep fights and fighting other BGs.
10% damage absorb gives people a chance to survive vs one caster. You should still have to play the game and if the attacking realm has no chance to assist debuff kill then there's no rp incentive to attack.
Then you have people sitting around doing nothing because they can't go to the action the other realm created.
i understand it was to made defender on the roof a bit less vulnerable, but from the feedback i get, attackers find it way to high.
i understand that the current values are not final and that we maybe have to play around with these values and we might have to try a few different values before we find a level that's 'just right'.
Right now (and even before the patch) albs would hole up in the keep praying someone attacks so they can get rp defending, but wouldn't go attack anything.
On Hib attacking alb was always questionable, depending on if you can get enough tanks. (personal opinion is that the 15% damage increase vs tanks is too much, removing the ability climb every minute was enough of a deterrent as it is). On Mid they don't attack albs and didn't before the patch if they have reasonable numbers, it just never ends well. (Super debuff groups just wreck mids).
On Mid, they can sometimes field a defense, sometimes not. Now Hibs are unwilling to attack so its moot.
On Hib, they are the realm most likely to attack keeps but traditionally (over the last few years) only so far as its a decent shot at a win (and that's being generous). Nobody attacks hib port keeps unless there are crazy underpop numbers (70-100%) and there's still a 50+ man BG that wants to do so. That was rare pre- patch on both mid/alb.
The RP Chasing crowd. You can log in to keeps under siege (easier to get rp) which this change could exacerbate. More so, the leet-ish debuff/assisting crowd can clean up. Right now the number game is the only thing keeping them from wiping whole zergs in keep defense. Giving them a 50% damage absorb is probably enough to let their debuff train not die while assisting down a zerg from on high.
So i see this as a very tentative balance. It needs to be beneficial to attack and defend and normal keep bonuses only do so much (since you only get rp if you get kills based off of those.
Things that may carefully help to achieve this balance without bringing terrible alignment issues:
1) A base participation bonus for defense/take regardless of rp for port keeps (not
surs/eras/berk/crim/ddb/bolg/blend/hlid/nott). Enough where you have casuals wanting the zerg leader to take keeps and willing to die/take 20-30 minutes in the process. For those arguing its free rps; it creates action and more action than say running out and slaying 5 dopples.
2) Reduction in absorbtion to something like 10-15%. More and attackers wont get kills while taking the gate down and will likely die in the process. Less and maybe they don't defend because no chance of sticking their heads out vs even a one caster stun dd.
3) I'd argue relics become less then meaningless with this weighting. Id keep it based of relics but add a 3% RP bonus per relic owned.
On the opposite side mid and alb took 3 keeps between them.
I’ve even heard that hero is refusing to hit keeps because of the tank climbing changes.
This I find pretty stupid the effect when climbing spikes is Triggered lasts 45 seconds
If you had a brain you could see a way around that problem It’s not a biggie.
The debuff only covers the inner keep so it doesn’t restrict hibs to fighting in the courtyard
I mean you guys want action don’t you your leader constantly says he does I really can’t see your problem or do you want easy keel takes .
If broadsword revert these changes which I fully expect then to it will because of the hib zerg and it’s leader which kinda illustrates who they listen to.
On the other hand this could be a game changer For Daoc maybe we can revert back to the days when keeps were taken purely to get a port or to get a relic.
We really don’t care if hero roams around ev or anywhere else we can trap him voltron him and just avoid him it’s not a problem to most albs we have been doing it for years.
I expect hero will change tactics I can see several ways around the changes if he’s a good leader he will adapt.
He’s been taking keeps for years and his Zerg has grown into a very wierd social club that does the same stufff day in day out they love it but the rest of game hates his daily antics .
The only action he creates is action on a one sided basis the game has become stale his Zerg has become stale it’s like a collection of stepford wives running around roboticaly following a German cow it really is very wierd.
As for action we had the best action we have had for years fights all over the map.
It’s hilarious to here hibs complain about balance issues and alignment when we have put up with this crap for years.
All I will say to hibs and your fuhrer is this you created this now deal with it.
But that in the caster assist of 20 people, you can no longer get a cloth carrier down because of the obelisk.
Or that Fumbelstürme be placed on the obelisk.
Likewise, if you have relics, you will be punished.
The patsh is just sick.
sry for my google english
Action was kind of weird, seems lots sitting in cks taking tower back then running back to ck, tower going rinse and repeat.
Early days yet. But i feel less inclinded to log in atm, maybe its the changes dunno I thought daoc was like sandbox pvp mmorpg and when enforced changes are made kind of feels a bit meh.
For me realm switching is the bigger problem, when you see massive population swings soon as hero bg starts or when hero is in alb , mid is on 70% then hero goes mid and then alb in on 70% maybe this will change with patch, time will tell.
Just keep in mind the game probably can't sustain itself if its just an 8v8 playground and everyone else gets decimated. There isn't a group out there right now who doesn't roll solo spots looking for solo/small groups to kill. The world where everyone just wants the zerg to log off is probably not accurate, either, as many of us find that time as a great time to avoid 8man grief.
I suggest Herorius and the rest of hib give this game a go. You can take all the keeps you want.
and has any relics even been taken to see if the 75 is to much ....
By far one of my favorite games as a child.
Also the protection obelisk needs to suffer massive damage to caster damage or something, after doing this some that's the other half of why keeps are broken. The obelisk works for casters up on the balcony by stairs so they can rain down chaos on any tanks attacking it (and casters attacking it have to enter the keep). It should really be killable in a minute of focused effort.
Work in progress.
Can we please stop with the bunny pics ? They have nothing to do with DAOC.
getting ready for gem quest again
maybe its time we added upgrades to heal pots like actual food or drink.
Having been in more than a few keep defences, It's my opinion that the obelisk's abs buff has very rarely been a deciding factor in the outcome of a siege. Does it have an effect, sure, but a deciding factor ? Hardly in my opinion.
More of that please
The issue now is that with a well defended keep you still get the buff on the first part of the balcony from the stairs to the lord room, and the obby is super hard to kill. So, casters just rain down assists with their half damage absorb and how do you get past that. Buffs should be 25% max and stop at the lord room door- i agree with that, and the obelisk should be killable in short order.
I haven't seen a defended keep take over the last few weeks where the defenders had half or more of the (usually hib) realm. Usually the keep takes you see are one sided slaughters where they just ignore the obelisk, and if not, everyone dies when they open the door and try to take the obelisk or push in without. With these levels what it does is discourage even fights. I think we should try to incentivize even fights just as this is trying to incentivize people to show up to begin with. Attacking a keep is one of the few ways to create action when you are the larger zerg because people have the potential for safety for a bit. Nobody wants to attack a keep if you are just going to wipe and nobody wants to defend if you are just going to wipe. It's the solid spam on the other realm that really ends it for people.
The other issue is relics have become anethema, and they are such an integral part of the game. If there were no relics changing hands for say several months I think part of the game would become less meaningful.
Also, what we haven't had a chance to test is how OP it would be to defend a keep on hib now. (We tried to take DC once and it was a slaughter, 3g vs 1g hibs that showed up at the very end and just defeated us soundly). Basically, half the issue before this was the inability to take a relic back. The opportunistic debuff groups switch realms on a dime and can easily collect ~200k rp for a keep defense, and hib is very strong in keep defense already. Secondly, after hero logs, full groups of hibs routinely farm 3-4 groups of mids trying to retake glen/bled. The rich get richer.
I suggest the buff has a cap of 25% and agree it shouldn't work below the lord room. I think you should get that 25% with your 2 relics or no relics, and with additional relics it decreases by 10% per relic maybe.
I also suggest the buff not be purchasable in opposing realm keeps (for instance if Mids take Beno they cannot buy the buff.
I also suggest that captured relics also give a 5% rp bonus.
I also suggest that defenders be given a token RP base defense bonus, and attackers a token RP base attack bonus, even if they don't get any rp. To avoid siege tower/wilson farming, this bonus should only work when a ST is built/wall destroyed/gate destroyed- 1k base bonus, 2k if inner is destroyed.
If they have albs in their back it becomes difficult, bec. the albs can attack the healers. Or the mids.
But the obelisk only really works, if enemies try to hold the bottom floor. If the attackers get past the bottom floor, then they usually win.
It is a bit annoying for the attackers that it is very hard to kill sth on the roof. Even with stun-nukenuke it is hard. So, I think 30% reduction for 2 relics would be a better value.
I like it that relics cant be taken so easily anymore. This gives more balance imo. Before that, i guess, hib had 5-6 relics for weeks. That cant be a solution. So, this is a good change. But it doesnt make sense, if relics cannot be taken anymore of course.
No. I tried it. Need to nuke them climbing up which isn't always convenient.