I don't think so. Wizards are trash, they require a body sorc for the debuff, and alb only has one good train that is efficient to run (Body or Body/spirit), while hib has two good trains (heat and energy/body) and mid has 2-3 good options (cold/energy, spirit and energy/spirit).
It's clunky to lose your main cc because the debuffs are in its dps spec.
Giving elemental debuffs to the Earth line (maybe remove the bolt in earth if it's too much) could mean you would be able to run a heat train with a wiz/tic and still have a mind sorc.
Not that Alb needs any help tbh, but wizards are trash.
You only have to take one look at this graph and you would see something is wrong balance wise and that Hibs are and have been on top for a long long time.
But hey stick your head in the sand and the game dies which seems to be happening pretty fast now.
At least Stoopid is trying to highlight some of the real issues here, if nothing is done I cant see this game going on for much longer.
Last week hib had twice as much rps as alb. When you start changing sth? When albs have 0 rps?
Maybe the reduction to 5sec is a good solution, because taking stun away from classes is a hard change.
@Mithras I understand what you are getting at m8, but I dont want this thread to be about class balance i dont think we can ever agree accross the realms. I do think we can all see with our own eyes but Mids and Alb cannot even try to defend a keep against Hibs if they have a large number of attackers causing people to not defend because they cannot have fun causing people to not even try to defend or dont play at all.
5 second stun is worth a try, but the whole idea of giving it to a druid may require removing the pet but that is a class balance issue which I wont jump in on.
if it does reduced the frustration defending. I am all for it.
Atleast people are discussing this as an actual issue not just a.n Alb calling to Nerf Hib.
My question is do you have issue with defending hibs if the numbers are close to even? If the answer is no.... Than it's really simple your being overrun and it's never fun... Can't say I've ever enjoyed or had *fun* being killed in unwinnable fights while soloing.
This is a population issue/player base issue
If you can't convince them to not all follow hero, than you have 2 solutions really don't play when he's on , don't play at all.
2 solutions really don't play when he's on , don't play at all. Least how I see it
No there are 3 solutions.. last one is fix the issue so 2 thirds of the game still have fun when there is a hib zerg.. as i have said many times its is only an issue with Hibs. Mids attacking in greater number allows casuals and pUGs to have fun meaning they come back to play again.
Notice how you avoided the question of do you have a issue with hibs when the numbers are equal.... It means that no you don't which means if stun was so op-ed it be a issue at all times not just when you are out numbered min 3 to 1 .
Your asking them to remove something hib casters have had forever, because you want to play a caster in keep sieges and make rps I can understand that but it's not something I agree with.
This is a population issue/player base issue
If you can't convince them to not all follow hero, than you have 2 solutions really don't play when he's on , don't play at all.
Notice how you avoided the question of do you have a issue with hibs when the numbers are equal.... It means that no you don't which means if stun was so op-ed it be a issue at all times not just when you are out numbered min 3 to 1
@Stoopiduser thinks the only difference between the mid BG and the hib BG is baseline stun. And he believes the playing field should be evened so they have a better chance against a larger coordinated group. The Mid BG is usually smaller and/or less coordinated (Hero has been running for years vs the rotation of RvR BG leads including myself since Xyorman left).
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
How can you even the playing field when 1 side has 80 other side has 30? What does changing class balance have to do with population imbalance? That's what I'm trying to get across.
I might come off hostile but I just type like ****
I suggest zergers break off and do things in smaller numbers you can still socialize in guild/as/discord it will take a while *alot less time than waiting for broadsword to come up with a solution* but you sooner or later will break his Zerg to shear bordum.
Again that is not what I am saying and you are deliberately twisting what i have said showing your bias, Unless ofcourse you are havinga problem undestanding what I have said.
I will try again for you.
Zerg vs Zerg its fine.
Even numbers against even numbers its fine.
Mids attacking Albs in a keep greater numbers in a keep its still fun for defenders and fine.
Albs attacking Mids in a keep greater Numbers in a keep its still fun for defenders and fine.
Hibs attacking either Mids or Albs in a keep with greater numbers there is not fun as you died every 60 seconds once you have blown purge, stun feedback as you cannot move out of LOS and that in turn means you can do nothing and it is not FUN for the defenders.
No fun means no defenders, no defenders means people who dont run with set groups have no FUN so dont even log in any more.
As i have also said before you can blame the players and watch the game die, or you can make the game FUN for all.
How can you even the playing field when 1 side has 80 other side has 30? What does changing class balance have to do with population imbalance? That's what I'm trying to get across.
I said that before too, but population is not changing, as we see. So what we do?
I suggest zergers break off and do things in smaller numbers you can still socialize in guild/as/discord it will take a while *alot less time than waiting for broadsword to come up with a solution* but you sooner or later will break his Zerg to shear bordum.
I dont think you will break hero zerg. They also run when they make 5k/hour.
Sure, we can wait a bit longer. But alot of albs/mids complained now. So maybe we should try and change sth. Before more people quit.
What bias? I solo I actively try to avoid any place that brings zergers around .
I just am pointing out what your asking to change does nothing, hero will adapt run another x class that's given the stun and u still get stunned and gunned because for every 1 of you looking over 4 are targeting you.
Yes I blame the players but it's not watching game die it's watching them kill it by there own actions.
Can't wait to see what the next complaint will be if any of these changes are implemented. The game will still die unless the population disparity is addressed.
I can see lowering the stun duration and not getting rid of it and if it is to much and it breaks the game more then it helps you can revert it. Its easer to lower it the to get rid of it. Or give it a recast timer but I think lowering it would be better that why you are not messing with spec trees and peeps wont have to respect or retemp and i think the ment cures set can still increase the duration by 2 secs like I think it oready dose.
@shoke Did not read most of this but skimmed and saw you said 11sec stun is 2 seconds longer than hib.
Mentalists (like the top 3 rp toons last week) get 11 second stun. Just bringing you up to speed with 2016. Also Chanters can debuff for their stun if they are smart. No other toon can do that. I don't really want to mention that or explain how OP it can be. Don't have time to comment on the rest.
In general hib stun is 9 sec, obviously ment has 11 sec with their ch9 set (that was bugged and didn't offer the bonus, and there is no confirmation it has actually been fixed) and I wasn't going to list every single exception, the point was that healer has a good stun.
Honestly your post makes you look like a dick more than anything.
Yeah, heat debuff before the stun, big brains. I'd rather stop the player when he's in range than casting a debuff and basically showing him he's the next target, allowing him to 180 and get out of stun range. But what do I know, you are the pro here.
Well the Caledonia Event started last night and Alb were pinned at the Portal Keep by a constant stream of Hibs, no walls for healers to free heal behind, lots of fun, stuns were not a problem due to numbers. EU time.
I heard lots of "I god damn it, I am stunned" but alot less frustration as Hib could be interupted and everyone could do something to have Fun.
I do not know what gives a better example of the problem defending Keeps against large numbers of Hibs.
@Mithras heh did you see what happened when I mentioned Insta amnesia? that took alot to keep it on topic
Well the Caledonia Event started last night and Alb were pinned at the Portal Keep by a constant stream of Hibs, no walls for healers to free heal behind, lots of fun, stuns were not a problem due to numbers. EU time.
I heard lots of "I god damn it, I am stunned" but alot less frustration as Hib could be interupted and everyone could do something to have Fun.
I do not know what gives a better example of the problem defending Keeps against large numbers of Hibs.
@Mithras heh did you see what happened when I mentioned Insta amnesia? that took alot to keep it on topic
here is where I am confused. You say stun is ONLY OP if Albs are out numbered in a Keep defense. Well duh..... You have more people targeting you. Of course it will seem OP.
Last week hib had twice as much rps as alb. When you start changing sth? When albs have 0 rps?
Maybe the reduction to 5sec is a good solution, because taking stun away from classes is a hard change.
You really cant go by this graph. 2 nights a weeks albs are nonexistent ( Mon and Tues) because rescue does not log in and noone steps up to run ALB BG on those nights
here is where I am confused. You say stun is ONLY OP if Albs are out numbered in a Keep defense. Well duh..... You have more people targeting you. Of course it will seem OP.
I am saying its no fun. if it were 80 mids against 20 albs, the albs can still get on the walls and defend, maybe get a few kills, make some rps. When out numbered by hibs with so few defenders you can, what?, pour oil after you have already blown purge and stun feedback. Its no fun, people wont come and defend so less poeple come to try, the problem gets worse the longer it goes on.
Alb are pinned at CK in Caledonia, but hibs have to push and we can push back interrupting stun nuke. i have save many albs just interrupting the follow up nuke. its fun. You cannot do that in a keep against hibs. You can against Mids.
I am only concerned with the Fun factor in this thread m8.
Hib is OP all the time but thats my bias thats a joke just incase i wasnt clear
You really cant go by this graph. 2 nights a weeks albs are nonexistent ( Mon and Tues) because rescue does not log in and noone steps up to run ALB BG on those nights
I think you can go pretty well by this graph. I dont care about whether a bg leader is online or not. Hibs had almost twice as much rps as albs. If that is not a warning for you, then RIP.
Boduke it is not an issue against Mids as they dont have caster that can stun nuke you down.
Keep fights need a fix to stun, reduced duration or a 10 min immunity.
It was directed at Dial, sorry not you.
I know there is a ML line that give a % to mezz reduction, would it benefit if they put in a % stun reduction node to one of the more unused ML lines? You could put it on a longer cast timer so it would be hard to cast during open field/8man fights but it would help in seige warfare. Maybe it would only affect those that can't spec in det. I don't know, just and idea.
All I hear is "we can't beat a better, coordinated force, so we want the game to change so we don't have to coordinate to beat them." Like @puter said, Xuu's crew shows up with 8 and makes the hero BG run, even when they're invading alb
If you want a simpler game, more friendly to casuals, baseline stun isn't the place to start (ever think the lemmings in the hero BG need baseline stun to compete?). Maybe start with extending the RUT on charges from 2 min will prevent people from /use stacking, freeing up EC restrictions, or have some type of system that rewards some RP's to the losing side (more than the joke that is keep defense RP's when you lose said keep) would be a better place to start. The goal here is to increase population, GL reducing stun duration and waiting for the crowds to flock in.
Removing an ability that's been in the game since day 1 is likely just going to make returning players walk away. If stun-nuke-nuke makes you angry, learn how to use one of the many counters in the game today.
Post edited by Dale_Perf on
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
If you want a simpler game, more friendly to casuals, baseline stun isn't the place to start (ever think the lemmings in the hero BG need baseline stun to compete?). Maybe start with extending the RUT on charges from 2 min will prevent people from /use stacking, freeing up EC restrictions, or have some type of system that rewards some RP's to the losing side (more than the joke that is keep defense RP's when you lose said keep) would be a better place to start. The goal here is to increase population, GL reducing stun duration and waiting for the crowds to flock in.
Reducing stun duration is only 1 element out of 100. You can do all the other things you suggest, you even should do them. This is only 1 element.
I think most hibs running in hero bg dont even care much about it. They still have their easy way to get their rps.
Well I have to say its alot more fun in Caledonia.
Excluding the Hero BG catapulting the TK cuz Albs are trapping outside, which I found very funny although 3 guild member rage logged saying he was just taking the pickle and they wouldnt play if BS would let him zerg PK just because he could.. BUT they fixed it with more guards to their credit.
That all being said it was fun, pushing, pulling, deaths all round.
I am not looking forward to being pinned in a NF Keep by a massive Hib zerg next week.
lol I am not one of those wizards i dont know how MrBadwolf, and Pyrokid can do it.. It bores me to tears sitting and waiting for traps to blow up a zerg (maybe).
I am only in it for the Fun
MrBadwolf doesnt just sit with the traps when guild is on to be honest, he comes with us to get farmed. I am pretty sure he was the one who started a trend tho.
I dont judge the wizards, just like I dont judge Hero or IRC. They pay the Subs they play the game.
You will know its me when you get killed by or kill someone called Stoopid<class>.
Ooh I will say, if we are passing we will drop traps before moving. Mids got us twice with traps yesturday, at bridge and.near MPK.
Well I am glad you are not who decides, people like you are the reason poeple leave.
"I am having fun screw everyone else."
Have fun out there Dale.
"I'm miserable because the game isn't setup for me to win 15 v 60!"
Maybe instead of changing this game to some nerfed version of it so the last 30 people playing against the hero bg have a better chance, we do things to help bring the population back to a healthy point where you don't need a crutch.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Maybe instead of changing this game to some nerfed version of it so the last 30 people playing against the hero bg have a better chance, we do things to help bring the population back to a healthy point where you don't need a crutch.
Comments
probably should give pin to pallys ...
It's clunky to lose your main cc because the debuffs are in its dps spec.
Giving elemental debuffs to the Earth line (maybe remove the bolt in earth if it's too much) could mean you would be able to run a heat train with a wiz/tic and still have a mind sorc.
Not that Alb needs any help tbh, but wizards are trash.
You assume that the majority of Albs wizards even know what a debuff does.
yup
If you play eu hib, you need 2 commands:
/stick herorius
/assist herorius
Thats it. Pretty easy actually.
Either reduce it to 5sec.
Or give it only to 1 hib caster, so take it away from 2 classes.
Or give it to one of druid, warden, bard.
3 Hib caster classes with stun in keep fights are too strong at the moment.
Giving it to the Druid would make the most sense, as the other realms have their baseline stun on their mainhealers too
When making all realms the same makes the most sense. RIP.
Last week hib had twice as much rps as alb. When you start changing sth? When albs have 0 rps?
Maybe the reduction to 5sec is a good solution, because taking stun away from classes is a hard change.
5 second stun is worth a try, but the whole idea of giving it to a druid may require removing the pet but that is a class balance issue which I wont jump in on.
if it does reduced the frustration defending. I am all for it.
Atleast people are discussing this as an actual issue not just a.n Alb calling to Nerf Hib.
This is a population issue/player base issue
If you can't convince them to not all follow hero, than you have 2 solutions really don't play when he's on , don't play at all.
Least how I see it
Thegenerallee-shadowblade
Misleadinglooks-warrior
Grumblejr-hero
Danceswithdebuffs-champion
Faatkid-druid
No there are 3 solutions.. last one is fix the issue so 2 thirds of the game still have fun when there is a hib zerg.. as i have said many times its is only an issue with Hibs. Mids attacking in greater number allows casuals and pUGs to have fun meaning they come back to play again.
Your asking them to remove something hib casters have had forever, because you want to play a caster in keep sieges and make rps I can understand that but it's not something I agree with.
Thegenerallee-shadowblade
Misleadinglooks-warrior
Grumblejr-hero
Danceswithdebuffs-champion
Faatkid-druid
Go convince them. Im looking forward to it.
Sorry if i wasnt being clear, this is not an issues in zerg vs zerg. This is a massive problem with this population and hib outnumbering defenders.
Jump in with some suggestions m8, thats why I posted in the first place.
Hangon check the damn title of the Post, I wasnt joking
@Stoopiduser thinks the only difference between the mid BG and the hib BG is baseline stun. And he believes the playing field should be evened so they have a better chance against a larger coordinated group. The Mid BG is usually smaller and/or less coordinated (Hero has been running for years vs the rotation of RvR BG leads including myself since Xyorman left).
I might come off hostile but I just type like ****
I suggest zergers break off and do things in smaller numbers you can still socialize in guild/as/discord it will take a while *alot less time than waiting for broadsword to come up with a solution* but you sooner or later will break his Zerg to shear bordum.
Thegenerallee-shadowblade
Misleadinglooks-warrior
Grumblejr-hero
Danceswithdebuffs-champion
Faatkid-druid
I will try again for you.
Zerg vs Zerg its fine.
Even numbers against even numbers its fine.
Mids attacking Albs in a keep greater numbers in a keep its still fun for defenders and fine.
Albs attacking Mids in a keep greater Numbers in a keep its still fun for defenders and fine.
Hibs attacking either Mids or Albs in a keep with greater numbers there is not fun as you died every 60 seconds once you have blown purge, stun feedback as you cannot move out of LOS and that in turn means you can do nothing and it is not FUN for the defenders.
No fun means no defenders, no defenders means people who dont run with set groups have no FUN so dont even log in any more.
As i have also said before you can blame the players and watch the game die, or you can make the game FUN for all.
I said that before too, but population is not changing, as we see. So what we do?
I dont think you will break hero zerg. They also run when they make 5k/hour.
Sure, we can wait a bit longer. But alot of albs/mids complained now. So maybe we should try and change sth. Before more people quit.
And stun is very strong in keep fights.
I just am pointing out what your asking to change does nothing, hero will adapt run another x class that's given the stun and u still get stunned and gunned because for every 1 of you looking over 4 are targeting you.
Yes I blame the players but it's not watching game die it's watching them kill it by there own actions.
Thegenerallee-shadowblade
Misleadinglooks-warrior
Grumblejr-hero
Danceswithdebuffs-champion
Faatkid-druid
Keep fights need a fix to stun, reduced duration or a 10 min immunity.
It was directed at Dial, sorry not you.
And now Ive said enough on it.
Mentalists (like the top 3 rp toons last week) get 11 second stun. Just bringing you up to speed with 2016. Also Chanters can debuff for their stun if they are smart. No other toon can do that. I don't really want to mention that or explain how OP it can be. Don't have time to comment on the rest.
In general hib stun is 9 sec, obviously ment has 11 sec with their ch9 set (that was bugged and didn't offer the bonus, and there is no confirmation it has actually been fixed) and I wasn't going to list every single exception, the point was that healer has a good stun.
Honestly your post makes you look like a dick more than anything.
Yeah, heat debuff before the stun, big brains. I'd rather stop the player when he's in range than casting a debuff and basically showing him he's the next target, allowing him to 180 and get out of stun range. But what do I know, you are the pro here.
Yea, it should stay on casters.
@Stoopiduser Fair enough Sir. I hope your suggestions get listened to and we try something to fix the current situation.
I heard lots of "I god damn it, I am stunned" but alot less frustration as Hib could be interupted and everyone could do something to have Fun.
I do not know what gives a better example of the problem defending Keeps against large numbers of Hibs.
@Mithras heh did you see what happened when I mentioned Insta amnesia? that took alot to keep it on topic
@Stoopiduser Oh god yes! I guess we are all so super pationate about how to fix this game, we easily will get distracted.
@Broadsword
here is where I am confused. You say stun is ONLY OP if Albs are out numbered in a Keep defense. Well duh..... You have more people targeting you. Of course it will seem OP.
You really cant go by this graph. 2 nights a weeks albs are nonexistent ( Mon and Tues) because rescue does not log in and noone steps up to run ALB BG on those nights
is that because there is less rps for the hibs and mids on those nights ......
I am saying its no fun. if it were 80 mids against 20 albs, the albs can still get on the walls and defend, maybe get a few kills, make some rps. When out numbered by hibs with so few defenders you can, what?, pour oil after you have already blown purge and stun feedback. Its no fun, people wont come and defend so less poeple come to try, the problem gets worse the longer it goes on.
Alb are pinned at CK in Caledonia, but hibs have to push and we can push back interrupting stun nuke. i have save many albs just interrupting the follow up nuke. its fun. You cannot do that in a keep against hibs. You can against Mids.
I am only concerned with the Fun factor in this thread m8.
Hib is OP all the time but thats my bias
I think you can go pretty well by this graph. I dont care about whether a bg leader is online or not. Hibs had almost twice as much rps as albs. If that is not a warning for you, then RIP.
I know there is a ML line that give a % to mezz reduction, would it benefit if they put in a % stun reduction node to one of the more unused ML lines? You could put it on a longer cast timer so it would be hard to cast during open field/8man fights but it would help in seige warfare. Maybe it would only affect those that can't spec in det. I don't know, just and idea.
If you want a simpler game, more friendly to casuals, baseline stun isn't the place to start (ever think the lemmings in the hero BG need baseline stun to compete?). Maybe start with extending the RUT on charges from 2 min will prevent people from /use stacking, freeing up EC restrictions, or have some type of system that rewards some RP's to the losing side (more than the joke that is keep defense RP's when you lose said keep) would be a better place to start. The goal here is to increase population, GL reducing stun duration and waiting for the crowds to flock in.
Removing an ability that's been in the game since day 1 is likely just going to make returning players walk away. If stun-nuke-nuke makes you angry, learn how to use one of the many counters in the game today.
"I am having fun screw everyone else."
Have fun out there Dale.
Reducing stun duration is only 1 element out of 100. You can do all the other things you suggest, you even should do them. This is only 1 element.
I think most hibs running in hero bg dont even care much about it. They still have their easy way to get their rps.
Excluding the Hero BG catapulting the TK cuz Albs are trapping outside, which I found very funny although 3 guild member rage logged saying he was just taking the pickle and they wouldnt play if BS would let him zerg PK just because he could.. BUT they fixed it with more guards to their credit.
That all being said it was fun, pushing, pulling, deaths all round.
I am not looking forward to being pinned in a NF Keep by a massive Hib zerg next week.
The little credibility you managed to get just went out the window.
I am only in it for the Fun
MrBadwolf doesnt just sit with the traps when guild is on to be honest, he comes with us to get farmed. I am pretty sure he was the one who started a trend tho.
I dont judge the wizards, just like I dont judge Hero or IRC. They pay the Subs they play the game.
You will know its me when you get killed by or kill someone called Stoopid<class>.
Ooh I will say, if we are passing we will drop traps before moving. Mids got us twice with traps yesturday, at bridge and.near MPK.
"I'm miserable because the game isn't setup for me to win 15 v 60!"
Maybe instead of changing this game to some nerfed version of it so the last 30 people playing against the hero bg have a better chance, we do things to help bring the population back to a healthy point where you don't need a crutch.
How you do that?