Ok well if baseline Stun is ok on Hib, how about a different solution would be to add it to Alb and mid list casters instead? this would at least even up the issue?.
Although personally baseline stun on a list caster is a bad idea, it should have never have been in the game. It was given when Hib when they had a low population to even up the odds. now that this not the case it should be removed.
The problem you're facing isn't unique and is historical in DAoC's lifetime. More leaders = more players. That has been the case since this game came out. It wasn't long ago that EU Albs had the Darkyi BG which did well against the Hero BG. The caveat today is that there isn't a large enough population to hide poor performing players even in zerg fights. Therefore, it is very easy to tip the scale in any fight with a single group of players (sometimes less). Consequently, casual players have some limited options: a.) join the winning side to continue shrouding yourself, b.) improve your gameplay to increase your odds against the winning side, or c.) quit. There is nothing Broadsword can do to help this situation outside of implementing strategies to increase the overall population (RIP EC). This particular issue needs to be addressed by the community working together across realms. NA prime has improved drastically over the past three years in terms of leadership despite the population being low. There's a BG up in each realm most of the week. The days of not knowing who you're fighting are long gone. I think EU players, especially those who play on Hib, need to take initiative in creating their own action before they destroy what's left.
I have told you what braodsword could do but you dont like it.
People were calling for realm timers and that failed as people have multiple accounts and it doesnt affect anyone.
I dont think anyone really thinks this is hero's fault and i dont even blame the Hibs for using the tools they have been given, can you really not see how both Mid and Alb without atleast 50% of the attacking zerg can do anything other than stun, die, stun, die, stun die while defending a lvl10 purple keep.
It doesnt matter if it take 30 mins for hero to break the doors down the defenders cannot get at the healers long enough for people to kill people on the inside and outside.
Murder Holes are not in the keep for the attackers they are for the defenders but the moment you even pas one you are stunned and dead.
You may not like the Casual players but they are required for people to play the game and if they arent having fun they arent coming back.
I dont care about getting killed at a seige, I do care people are not having fun
No you don't, or you would also be crying about bolt range mez from alb and AE stun from mid. You're just another hypocritical whiner crying because you can't always win, and the fact you ignored my question about when it is acceptable for you to lose WHEN OUTNUMBERED, clearly demonstrates that.
The problem you're facing isn't unique and is historical in DAoC's lifetime. More leaders = more players. That has been the case since this game came out. It wasn't long ago that EU Albs had the Darkyi BG which did well against the Hero BG. The caveat today is that there isn't a large enough population to hide poor performing players even in zerg fights. Therefore, it is very easy to tip the scale in any fight with a single group of players (sometimes less). Consequently, casual players have some limited options: a.) join the winning side to continue shrouding yourself, b.) improve your gameplay to increase your odds against the winning side, or c.) quit. There is nothing Broadsword can do to help this situation outside of implementing strategies to increase the overall population (RIP EC). This particular issue needs to be addressed by the community working together across realms. NA prime has improved drastically over the past three years in terms of leadership despite the population being low. There's a BG up in each realm most of the week. The days of not knowing who you're fighting are long gone. I think EU players, especially those who play on Hib, need to take initiative in creating their own action before they destroy what's left.
I have told you what braodsword could do but you dont like it.
People were calling for realm timers and that failed as people have multiple accounts and it doesnt affect anyone.
I dont think anyone really thinks this is hero's fault and i dont even blame the Hibs for using the tools they have been given, can you really not see how both Mid and Alb without atleast 50% of the attacking zerg can do anything other than stun, die, stun, die, stun die while defending a lvl10 purple keep.
It doesnt matter if it take 30 mins for hero to break the doors down the defenders cannot get at the healers long enough for people to kill people on the inside and outside.
Murder Holes are not in the keep for the attackers they are for the defenders but the moment you even pas one you are stunned and dead.
You may not like the Casual players but they are required for people to play the game and if they arent having fun they arent coming back.
NA prime doesn't have this problem. Therefore, it can't be due to stun + nuke. Yes, casuals are needed to help bolster the population. Hence why EC needs to be adjusted accordingly. Group Heals and Spreadheal had their power cost increased in direct response to Hero's BG. Nothing has changed. The same will happen with your proposed stun + nuke change. My suggestion is to learn from NA prime instead of going down the path of insanity.
@MrZerg I did answer your question and you quoted it. Figure it out. I cannot hold your hand.
@puter NA prime does have this problem when outnumbered to the point you have Hib caster just /face /hold stun till a Mid or Alb head pokes out nuke nuke nuke dead.
I have run both EU and NA for many years I do know.
@puter NA prime does have this problem when outnumbered to the point you have Hib caster just /face /hold stun till a Mid or Alb head pokes out nuke nuke nuke dead.
I have run both EU and NA for many years I do know.
We must not be playing the same game then. Hib during NA prime used to get dominated by Rescu / Billings and Xyroman / Paindancer a few years ago. They could defend when the 8mans voltroned but Hib had no BG presence during that time. It was only a few months before the mass exodus in 2019 that Hib had a consistent BG which has kept going despite leadership changing hands several times. This is a prime example of what needs to happen across all realms, imo. Unfortunately, Mid lost a large fraction of their population when RDM left Ywain and hasn't been as successful as Hib in terms of increasing their population during NA time until recently. Alb has had Rescu the entire time, except for a short period in which Nate led, for better or worse (usually worse). In just three years, I've seen dominance ebb and flow across all three realms during NA prime. The same can't be said about EU prime. Again, I wholeheartedly disagree with your stance regarding stun + nuke being the root of the problem. Broadsword can make the change but the outcome will stay the same.
I am not sure how I can explain this another way for you.
This is not a problem against Mids.
I cannot be anymore clear than that.
so here is what you do. have your sorc stand bolt range(2300) away and when the caster pokes their head out to stun,/amnesia him if a bard sticks his head out to insta amnesia, anmesia him at 2300 range...
I clearly said i dont think Zerg VS Zerg its a problem and I also saying when defending a keep and we have 50-60% of his numbers it can but a fun fight.
The problem as I said at the very start is that keeps are indefensible, as in can not do anything for 90% of the fight due to not being able to engage the outer attackers.
The cause of this problem is not Hero climbing in and killing everyone, its that if we can get to the walls there is no way to push healers/casters back because the moment you poke your head out you are dead and that is not a problem with the Albs, we have no problem when the Mids attack even when its 3 to 1 you can still get on the wall and cause trouble but not if hib casters are sat there with finger on stun hoping someone pokes head out, and it doesnt matter if you dont get them this time cuz 1 min later you will get them 1 min 10 secs if stunfeedback is up.
Yes Hib did not have the numbers for years so it was not a problem. When hero came out of the Labby and started zerging NF it was ok because we had numbers even a BG from time to time, number have falling and mids and albs put up wih it for a long time, calls for noone to defend and feed Hero in region is getting very loud.
so here is what you do. have your sorc stand bolt range(2300) away and when the caster pokes their head out to stun,/amnesia him if a bard sticks his head out to insta amnesia, anmesia him at 2300 range...
Just so we are clear you want my sorc to leave the keep to spam AoE amnesia?
Casted amnesia is alot longer than bolt range, just llike your insta Amnesia.
Or if he does have an angle to hit the hugging the keep wall druid/bard you want him to stand still and spam it and expect noone to do anything.. ok.. because when i do that to you I seem to get stunned and nuked to death shortly after you see the blue balls.
Why doesn't Creapers Alb group have any problem defending against the OP stun and bard insta amnesia?
maybe change your setup to defend. But there is a counter to everything in the game.
Why doesn't Creapers Alb group have any problem defending against the OP stun and bard insta amnesia?
maybe change your setup to defend. But there is a counter to everything in the game.
You mean Creapers set 8 man that I hardly even see in a keep let alone defending?
And you are comparing Casuals to a set 8man.. do you really only want 4 set groups running around as in no other people coming to the game so only you are left? people are not having fun why would they take the time to get a good guild, find the right setup, and run everyday together.
Be realistic.
My suggestions are not to nerf hibs just to improve the fun for everyone, Is it fun PvEing keeps with 8 defenders? how about if the defenders felt well crap i lost but did you see how i killed that <name of class> man that was cool. Oh the keeps under siege lets go there! right now its hey keeps under seige, theres a big tree thats hero lets go do something else.
Again nothing against Hero being Hero, or hibs being hibs just think about the overall fun for all realms.
You only have to take one look at this graph and you would see something is wrong balance wise and that Hibs are and have been on top for a long long time.
But hey stick your head in the sand and the game dies which seems to be happening pretty fast now.
At least Stoopid is trying to highlight some of the real issues here, if nothing is done I cant see this game going on for much longer.
Its only going to get worse @Superlaws people in region are getting louder and louder people arent defending, alb left relic gate open almost all day because there is nothing we can do to stop the keep takes.
If @John_Broadsword or someone in the office cannot implement this change hopefully before 1.27 this game wont be even worth playing soon, this not the normal dips, morale is gone, Rescu doesnt even log in some nights and i dont blame him.
@Superlaws Most of those RPs where Hib was clearly above Alb and Mid were from a bomb 8man group. The disparity in RPs earned by realm isn't that large in reality as they clearly cross a few times in just one year time.
@Stoopiduser Broadsword DAoC isn't designed for casuals. They'd have to do more than remove stun + nuke for it be a casual friendly game again. However, Broadsword won't make any meaningful changes on a short fuse so you either have to adapt and improve your gameplay or find another game. That's the reality. It doesn't take a set 8man to learn how to position yourself in a keep defense or open field so you don't get nuked to death.
Keeps are too important to the RvR lifeline atm. If you've lost relic keeps, you can't even port to ev. Maybe removing this mechanic will help population/action a bit.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
@puter well enjoy it while you can. I like many people only play for fun and if its no fun they wont play. I only still log on as i enjoy the poeple I play with, it not fun to get farmed otherwise. I have done my bit i have told you what the problem is if you choose not to listen and continue to claim its the players fault you will be playing alone or with your m8's 8v8 forever.
Goodluck and Have fun whatever you are upto.
@Dale_Perf if the realms, be it mid or hib cant even hold the keeps how can they compete in openfield?
@puter well enjoy it while you can. I like many people only play for fun and if its no fun they wont play. I only still log on as i enjoy the poeple I play with, it not fun to get farmed otherwise. I have done my bit i have told you what the problem is if you choose not to listen and continue to claim its the players fault you will be playing alone or with your m8's 8v8 forever.
The 8v8 ship has already sailed. It's ironic though since many of the class balance changes made by Broadsword were directed toward that playstyle. That's why I said they would have to do more than remove an ability that has been in the game since day one to make DAoC casual friendly. It won't happen though. They won't revert any further than they have. Ywain is as good as it's going to be. Only the community can try to improve it in a reasonable time frame. We're living in 2013 again. Except now I don't think we'll have anyone come in to "save" the game at the last minute.
@puter well enjoy it while you can. I like many people only play for fun and if its no fun they wont play. I only still log on as i enjoy the poeple I play with, it not fun to get farmed otherwise. I have done my bit i have told you what the problem is if you choose not to listen and continue to claim its the players fault you will be playing alone or with your m8's 8v8 forever.
Goodluck and Have fun whatever you are upto.
@Dale_Perf if the realms, be it mid or hib cant even hold the keeps how can they compete in openfield?
Bravo, you nailed it.
The guys posting that the game is fine have to keep the following in mind....
99.99% of the players left because there is no fun anymore.
The left over 0.01% people which are posting about low skill on others are the cancer that killed that game.
You also have to realize that the casuals are what keep the game alive... not the cancer(pros)...
Cancer(actual good-talker) will thrive as long as there is something(casuals) to eat...
After the sane flesh is gone the cancer will also die.
That said everyone should know that this game has to be made for casuals...
As long as this is not happening there will be no future for this game...
Except the gamemakers are OK with 30 players playing... ( thats the result of /who all when i log in... )
Nerfing stun nuke nuke is not the answer the problem on alb is utility it has been for a while now.
I would say mid and hib are pretty balanced and it’s very easy to set up a group there for pug or set 8 man.
Now on alb it’s different and mini bard in answer why creeper can set up a successful group on alb it’s because he runs at set group with a set up that works with regular people.
Getting a set up that works on alb is specialised and you need the correct toons when the population was high that wasn’t a problem but now with the pop low for casual pug groups on alb you use what you can it’s a problem specific to alb.
Now it’s easily fixed with tweaks to some alb toons.
I’ll give u an example I ran on mid last night in a small man we ran pac aug zerker sb and skald we took out 2 alb 8 mans with ease I mean it’s just embarrassing I’m playing a pac healer and it’s like a mini on steroids i thought afterwards this just isn’t right it’s not good for the game and it really is a problem.if I played hib I know it would be even easier
Now people can stick there head in the sand and say well it’s just albs whining well that’s fine but if you want casual players to fight on alb your gonna have to listen or your gonna have a 2 realm game.
@Brut Honestly, the main advantage of a bard over the other cc classes is that he's the one with SoS. So you don't have to invite a skald or Minstrel (on top of your cc'er) to get SoS.
(We're talking group compositions, not omg insta amnesia is so OP)
If the game didn't become this zerg fest groups could realistically run without SoS and do well.
In terms of group utility, Paladins should have Pin, not Reavers. It's such a waste on a reaver. However, I doubt casuals even know what Pin does.
The choice would then be similar as to mid, where the choice would be between a Minstrel and an Arms, the same as a mid group (talking hybrid comps) have to choose between a warr and a skald (considering a valk is a must have in any mid group).
Then the real advantage becomes about SoS, having it or not.
I am sorry to disagree with my favorite Pink Armsman but you run more PUG's and and small man Brut.
You have given up defending Keeps against hibs also, I dont group with you often so i cant say for sure i may be wrong.
I know defending against mids we can still have fun no matter the attacking numbers or atleast feel we can acheive something other than die 5+ times before they just takes the keep.
Nerfing baseline stun isnt the point even if i do think its stupid. Something needs to be done to make it defensible and applying a 10 min immunity to casted stun would make it possible to defend walls.
When was the last time you defended a keep from mids and could do almost nothing?
Shadow Brothers started coordinated Catapults on Heros healers so they move away from walls and you still cant get on the wall due to stun nuke and even they have started not even logging in because its no fun it takes atleast 5 people firing to get it done and they dont do it any more as it is pointless.
We have tried and tried to do something to fight Hibs while outnumbered 80 to 20 but morale has gone.
I am sorry to disagree with my favorite Pink Armsman but you run more PUG's and and small man Brut.
You have given up defending Keeps against hibs also, I dont group with you often so i cant say for sure i may be wrong.
I know defending against mids we can still have fun no matter the attacking numbers or atleast feel we can acheive something other than die 5+ times before they just takes the keep.
Nerfing baseline stun isnt the point even if i do think its stupid. Something needs to be done to make it defensible and applying a 10 min immunity to casted stun would make it possible to defend walls.
When was the last time you defended a keep from mids and could do almost nothing?
Shadow Brothers started coordinated Catapults on Heros healers so they move away from walls and you still cant get on the wall due to stun nuke and even they have started not even logging in because its no fun it takes atleast 5 people firing to get it done and they dont do it any more as it is pointless.
We have tried and tried to do something to fight Hibs while outnumbered 80 to 20 but morale has gone.
I find it's not the castable stun that hurts, its that you get hit with every other form of hinder (root, snarem mezz etc. etc.) that takes you out of the game. What is not fun fighting hibs is that you cannot compete against them for the vast majority of any fight. Mids they may do soem cool abilities but I can atleast move and try to do stuff where as with hibs I'm effectively stopped form doing anything and just have to wait my turn to die. As Brut said if we got some more utility on Alb toons so we could form grps and at least compete against hibs then it would improve the situation massively.
Seriously, the realm of bolt range root, mezz and ae amnesia on the same class is complaining about CC? Come on.
Alb has all the utility they need on their core classes (sorc, cab, cleric, friar)
Tbh, wizards should have the elementsl debuffs instead of the body sorc, but that's another topic.
If albs ran something else than wizards trapping at mile gates maybe the realm would do better. I feel like changing the wizard class cloak to something else (like a damage buff or something) would benefit the realm. People would stop making wizards with the only purpose of laying traps and hiding in a tower.
@Mithras I am not concerned with any playstyles or comparing classes, we cannot have fun people arent trying to defend and casuals cannot experience RvR in the best PvP game. This is the breaking point and noone will even play EU time soon.
@Shoke I am not comparing classes as post is not about that.
Its not like I am asking for an I Win, I am asking for a 7-10 min immunity timer on casted stun, its still powerful, but its more a once per fight (or 3+ times in a keep seige)
Did you see the "Fun" the NA Hib BG had last night? get used to it.
Yeah, Ywain is going to die real fast if this is what's left. Failure to recognize and utilize the tools at your disposal while hoping the same tools get nerfed on another realm is honestly sad. Brut wants OP abilities for the casuals but always forgets what happens when "leet" players get their hands on them. The ability bloat of Broadsword DAoC has increased the skill gap substantially. Adapt or quit because this train isn't going back.
I did see the "fun" the Hib BG had @Sroopiduser. They ran around most of the night when no other BG was out which I'm starkly against. Sadly, it looks like they didn't learn much from the BG leader that put them back on the map. I suppose if they didn't run, Ramik wouldn't have much to show on his stream.
I'll leave you all with Broadsword's own description of their team.
"Our Studio. Our Rules. We are a team of passionate, hard-core gamers with centuries of combined experience creating, running and evolving online games."
SO are you wanting to put all stuns on a 10 min timer? Hib, Mid, and Alb, or just Hib since its Baseline? Do it, the groups will over come. The casuals will find something else to complain about.
@Stoopiduser That nerf would apply to albs and mids too with their own baseline stun. Good luck trying to kill anything then.
Personally I never had issues in keep sieges on alb. I agree that it is easier on hib because your debuffer/nuker is the stunner, while on alb you need a cleric that isn't sleeping. On hib the druid/warden just take the back seat and heal.
I actually enjoy keep sieges on a cleric because I actually have to do something and be alert, a keep siege on hib is incredibly boring when you aren't a caster.
You can have a sorc come out and ae rupt everything at bolt range while a cab/necro/sorc train blows something up rq then back out of sight works. It does require a bit more coordination. You need to move around the keep, you can't stay at the same spot waiting for a hib caster that has you targetted to instantly stun you when you peak out the rampart.
And for sure you need to be alert on the heals to notice someone getting stunned and debuffed, but that's true in every realm.
I mean isn't it kind of normal that you should lose 20 v 80? In a heavily one sided fight, shouldn't siege be the best tool?
@Minibard Yes all Casted stun. Cleric and Healer also, melee is fine.
@Shoke I am not saying you should win against 80 attackers with only 20 defenders, I am saying this is not an issue against a Mid BG attacking, it is Hib specific problem. its not only Alb who have give up, Mids dont even defend when they have a BG let alone Alb casuals in random PUG. No Fun = No people to play.
@Triq02_Dave Other than removing all casted stun i cant think or anything better. I am open to suggestions other than Get Good.
I am not one of the people want to win at all costs, I could devote enough time to be 133t but that does nothing for people who just want fun.
BS will do what BS thinks is right. I dont think putting a 10 min timer is a solution. At most they can move it to a healing class like mid/alb but that would prob not happen since Hib has had it since release.
@Minibard Progress, nice. So as long as I dont discuss/mention instant amnesia we agree the stun is a problem at keep seiges when hib outnumber the enemies with regards to the "fun" of defenders?
@47el Didnt Ramik leave alb when Luvly/Billing quit and Teddy couldnt compete any more? I may be wrong ofc
@Stoopiduser I see it differently as class balance is inextricably linked to enabling people to have fun as you described. Without going off topic to much, I'd say 3 of the issues Alb's have vs Hib (broadly speaking, I'm sure there are more) are a perceived poor play style of their toons, a lack of will to defend and that our one predominantly good group set up is a body train (which can 100% compete). Now the dev's can't fix the first two, but the latter can be fixed with their help. This would remove one of the barriers to getting people to engage as they can then play the toons they love.
If albs ran something else than wizards trapping at mile gates maybe the realm would do better. I feel like changing the wizard class cloak to something else (like a damage buff or something) would benefit the realm. People would stop making wizards with the only purpose of laying traps and hiding in a tower.
This time 4,000. Get rid of that stupid /use on the Wizards cloak so that cancerous playstyle goes away. Albs would do so much better IF there were more stormlords and Tanks in a BG setting.
If albs ran something else than wizards trapping at mile gates maybe the realm would do better. I feel like changing the wizard class cloak to something else (like a damage buff or something) would benefit the realm. People would stop making wizards with the only purpose of laying traps and hiding in a tower.
This time 4,000. Get rid of that stupid /use on the Wizards cloak so that cancerous playstyle goes away. Albs would do so much better IF there were more stormlords and Tanks in a BG setting.
nothing worse than having someone standing in your storm while your group is trying to reposition lol
If albs ran something else than wizards trapping at mile gates maybe the realm would do better. I feel like changing the wizard class cloak to something else (like a damage buff or something) would benefit the realm. People would stop making wizards with the only purpose of laying traps and hiding in a tower.
This time 4,000. Get rid of that stupid /use on the Wizards cloak so that cancerous playstyle goes away. Albs would do so much better IF there were more stormlords and Tanks in a BG setting.
nothing worse than having someone standing in your storm while your group is trying to reposition lol
hehe yeah that's a rough one. It would be great it you could treat storms like pets by pulling up the pet window to cancel them. But we can all dream right?
@stoopiduser I wonder weather rather than immunity, if the stun duration was lowered to 5 secs similar to what happened with Slam, if that would achieve balance.
The main issue with Slam was hybrids slamming and killing within the slam duration, the same issue here with Hib stun on a debuff class.
Maybe a reduced stun duration as cast speeds have got faster would restore the spell closer to what it originally was when implemented and cast speed was slower. Just a thought...
Tanks are already only getting stunned for a couple of seconds so i dont think making it even lower will please the Hibs we would need to ease them into it
@Stoopiduser Actually, changing the hib stun to 5 sec while keeping the cleric's and healer's where it is at would actually make sense and be balanced.
You never stun tanks anyways and if you do, the tank in your group is 100% in his right to call you an idiot. 5 sec duration still makes it possible to kill, without it being a garanteed kill (need to assist quickly).
I'd be 100% OK with that change tbh.
- change hib stun to 5 sec duration
- change wizard loyalty cloak for the RM cloak
- change elemental debuffs (cold, heat, matter) from the Body sorc line to the wizard Earth line.
@Stoopiduser Actually, changing the hib stun to 5 sec while keeping the cleric's and healer's where it is at would actually make sense and be balanced.
You never stun tanks anyways and if you do, the tank in your group is 100% in his right to call you an idiot. 5 sec duration still makes it possible to kill, without it being a garanteed kill (need to assist quickly).
I'd be 100% OK with that change tbh.
- change hib stun to 5 sec duration
- change wizard loyalty cloak for the RM cloak
- change elemental debuffs (cold, heat, matter) from the Body sorc line to the wizard Earth line.
Comments
VW > Thane at melee, VW > Thane as a hybrid, Thane > VW as a caster.
Although personally baseline stun on a list caster is a bad idea, it should have never have been in the game. It was given when Hib when they had a low population to even up the odds. now that this not the case it should be removed.
I have told you what braodsword could do but you dont like it.
People were calling for realm timers and that failed as people have multiple accounts and it doesnt affect anyone.
I dont think anyone really thinks this is hero's fault and i dont even blame the Hibs for using the tools they have been given, can you really not see how both Mid and Alb without atleast 50% of the attacking zerg can do anything other than stun, die, stun, die, stun die while defending a lvl10 purple keep.
It doesnt matter if it take 30 mins for hero to break the doors down the defenders cannot get at the healers long enough for people to kill people on the inside and outside.
Murder Holes are not in the keep for the attackers they are for the defenders but the moment you even pas one you are stunned and dead.
You may not like the Casual players but they are required for people to play the game and if they arent having fun they arent coming back.
No you don't, or you would also be crying about bolt range mez from alb and AE stun from mid. You're just another hypocritical whiner crying because you can't always win, and the fact you ignored my question about when it is acceptable for you to lose WHEN OUTNUMBERED, clearly demonstrates that.
NA prime doesn't have this problem. Therefore, it can't be due to stun + nuke. Yes, casuals are needed to help bolster the population. Hence why EC needs to be adjusted accordingly. Group Heals and Spreadheal had their power cost increased in direct response to Hero's BG. Nothing has changed. The same will happen with your proposed stun + nuke change. My suggestion is to learn from NA prime instead of going down the path of insanity.
@puter NA prime does have this problem when outnumbered to the point you have Hib caster just /face /hold stun till a Mid or Alb head pokes out nuke nuke nuke dead.
I have run both EU and NA for many years I do know.
We must not be playing the same game then. Hib during NA prime used to get dominated by Rescu / Billings and Xyroman / Paindancer a few years ago. They could defend when the 8mans voltroned but Hib had no BG presence during that time. It was only a few months before the mass exodus in 2019 that Hib had a consistent BG which has kept going despite leadership changing hands several times. This is a prime example of what needs to happen across all realms, imo. Unfortunately, Mid lost a large fraction of their population when RDM left Ywain and hasn't been as successful as Hib in terms of increasing their population during NA time until recently. Alb has had Rescu the entire time, except for a short period in which Nate led, for better or worse (usually worse). In just three years, I've seen dominance ebb and flow across all three realms during NA prime. The same can't be said about EU prime. Again, I wholeheartedly disagree with your stance regarding stun + nuke being the root of the problem. Broadsword can make the change but the outcome will stay the same.
so here is what you do. have your sorc stand bolt range(2300) away and when the caster pokes their head out to stun,/amnesia him if a bard sticks his head out to insta amnesia, anmesia him at 2300 range...
The problem as I said at the very start is that keeps are indefensible, as in can not do anything for 90% of the fight due to not being able to engage the outer attackers.
The cause of this problem is not Hero climbing in and killing everyone, its that if we can get to the walls there is no way to push healers/casters back because the moment you poke your head out you are dead and that is not a problem with the Albs, we have no problem when the Mids attack even when its 3 to 1 you can still get on the wall and cause trouble but not if hib casters are sat there with finger on stun hoping someone pokes head out, and it doesnt matter if you dont get them this time cuz 1 min later you will get them 1 min 10 secs if stunfeedback is up.
Yes Hib did not have the numbers for years so it was not a problem. When hero came out of the Labby and started zerging NF it was ok because we had numbers even a BG from time to time, number have falling and mids and albs put up wih it for a long time, calls for noone to defend and feed Hero in region is getting very loud.
Who wants to play a game like this?
Just so we are clear you want my sorc to leave the keep to spam AoE amnesia?
Casted amnesia is alot longer than bolt range, just llike your insta Amnesia.
Or if he does have an angle to hit the hugging the keep wall druid/bard you want him to stand still and spam it and expect noone to do anything.. ok.. because when i do that to you I seem to get stunned and nuked to death shortly after you see the blue balls.
maybe change your setup to defend. But there is a counter to everything in the game.
You mean Creapers set 8 man that I hardly even see in a keep let alone defending?
And you are comparing Casuals to a set 8man.. do you really only want 4 set groups running around as in no other people coming to the game so only you are left? people are not having fun why would they take the time to get a good guild, find the right setup, and run everyday together.
Be realistic.
My suggestions are not to nerf hibs just to improve the fun for everyone, Is it fun PvEing keeps with 8 defenders? how about if the defenders felt well crap i lost but did you see how i killed that <name of class> man that was cool. Oh the keeps under siege lets go there! right now its hey keeps under seige, theres a big tree thats hero lets go do something else.
Again nothing against Hero being Hero, or hibs being hibs just think about the overall fun for all realms.
You only have to take one look at this graph and you would see something is wrong balance wise and that Hibs are and have been on top for a long long time.
But hey stick your head in the sand and the game dies which seems to be happening pretty fast now.
At least Stoopid is trying to highlight some of the real issues here, if nothing is done I cant see this game going on for much longer.
If @John_Broadsword or someone in the office cannot implement this change hopefully before 1.27 this game wont be even worth playing soon, this not the normal dips, morale is gone, Rescu doesnt even log in some nights and i dont blame him.
@Stoopiduser Broadsword DAoC isn't designed for casuals. They'd have to do more than remove stun + nuke for it be a casual friendly game again. However, Broadsword won't make any meaningful changes on a short fuse so you either have to adapt and improve your gameplay or find another game. That's the reality. It doesn't take a set 8man to learn how to position yourself in a keep defense or open field so you don't get nuked to death.
Goodluck and Have fun whatever you are upto.
@Dale_Perf if the realms, be it mid or hib cant even hold the keeps how can they compete in openfield?
The 8v8 ship has already sailed. It's ironic though since many of the class balance changes made by Broadsword were directed toward that playstyle. That's why I said they would have to do more than remove an ability that has been in the game since day one to make DAoC casual friendly. It won't happen though. They won't revert any further than they have. Ywain is as good as it's going to be. Only the community can try to improve it in a reasonable time frame. We're living in 2013 again. Except now I don't think we'll have anyone come in to "save" the game at the last minute.
Bravo, you nailed it.
The guys posting that the game is fine have to keep the following in mind....
99.99% of the players left because there is no fun anymore.
The left over 0.01% people which are posting about low skill on others are the cancer that killed that game.
You also have to realize that the casuals are what keep the game alive... not the cancer(pros)...
Cancer(actual good-talker) will thrive as long as there is something(casuals) to eat...
After the sane flesh is gone the cancer will also die.
That said everyone should know that this game has to be made for casuals...
As long as this is not happening there will be no future for this game...
Except the gamemakers are OK with 30 players playing... ( thats the result of /who all when i log in... )
Mahv
Ahmed to this Sir. Bang on correct on the Mark!
I would say mid and hib are pretty balanced and it’s very easy to set up a group there for pug or set 8 man.
Now on alb it’s different and mini bard in answer why creeper can set up a successful group on alb it’s because he runs at set group with a set up that works with regular people.
Getting a set up that works on alb is specialised and you need the correct toons when the population was high that wasn’t a problem but now with the pop low for casual pug groups on alb you use what you can it’s a problem specific to alb.
Now it’s easily fixed with tweaks to some alb toons.
I’ll give u an example I ran on mid last night in a small man we ran pac aug zerker sb and skald we took out 2 alb 8 mans with ease I mean it’s just embarrassing I’m playing a pac healer and it’s like a mini on steroids i thought afterwards this just isn’t right it’s not good for the game and it really is a problem.if I played hib I know it would be even easier
Now people can stick there head in the sand and say well it’s just albs whining well that’s fine but if you want casual players to fight on alb your gonna have to listen or your gonna have a 2 realm game.
(We're talking group compositions, not omg insta amnesia is so OP)
If the game didn't become this zerg fest groups could realistically run without SoS and do well.
In terms of group utility, Paladins should have Pin, not Reavers. It's such a waste on a reaver. However, I doubt casuals even know what Pin does.
The choice would then be similar as to mid, where the choice would be between a Minstrel and an Arms, the same as a mid group (talking hybrid comps) have to choose between a warr and a skald (considering a valk is a must have in any mid group).
Then the real advantage becomes about SoS, having it or not.
You have given up defending Keeps against hibs also, I dont group with you often so i cant say for sure i may be wrong.
I know defending against mids we can still have fun no matter the attacking numbers or atleast feel we can acheive something other than die 5+ times before they just takes the keep.
Nerfing baseline stun isnt the point even if i do think its stupid. Something needs to be done to make it defensible and applying a 10 min immunity to casted stun would make it possible to defend walls.
When was the last time you defended a keep from mids and could do almost nothing?
Shadow Brothers started coordinated Catapults on Heros healers so they move away from walls and you still cant get on the wall due to stun nuke and even they have started not even logging in because its no fun it takes atleast 5 people firing to get it done and they dont do it any more as it is pointless.
We have tried and tried to do something to fight Hibs while outnumbered 80 to 20 but morale has gone.
I find it's not the castable stun that hurts, its that you get hit with every other form of hinder (root, snarem mezz etc. etc.) that takes you out of the game. What is not fun fighting hibs is that you cannot compete against them for the vast majority of any fight. Mids they may do soem cool abilities but I can atleast move and try to do stuff where as with hibs I'm effectively stopped form doing anything and just have to wait my turn to die. As Brut said if we got some more utility on Alb toons so we could form grps and at least compete against hibs then it would improve the situation massively.
Alb has all the utility they need on their core classes (sorc, cab, cleric, friar)
Tbh, wizards should have the elementsl debuffs instead of the body sorc, but that's another topic.
If albs ran something else than wizards trapping at mile gates maybe the realm would do better. I feel like changing the wizard class cloak to something else (like a damage buff or something) would benefit the realm. People would stop making wizards with the only purpose of laying traps and hiding in a tower.
@Shoke I am not comparing classes as post is not about that.
Its not like I am asking for an I Win, I am asking for a 7-10 min immunity timer on casted stun, its still powerful, but its more a once per fight (or 3+ times in a keep seige)
Did you see the "Fun" the NA Hib BG had last night? get used to it.
I did see the "fun" the Hib BG had @Sroopiduser. They ran around most of the night when no other BG was out which I'm starkly against. Sadly, it looks like they didn't learn much from the BG leader that put them back on the map. I suppose if they didn't run, Ramik wouldn't have much to show on his stream.
I'll leave you all with Broadsword's own description of their team.
"Our Studio. Our Rules. We are a team of passionate, hard-core gamers with centuries of combined experience creating, running and evolving online games."
Personally I never had issues in keep sieges on alb. I agree that it is easier on hib because your debuffer/nuker is the stunner, while on alb you need a cleric that isn't sleeping. On hib the druid/warden just take the back seat and heal.
I actually enjoy keep sieges on a cleric because I actually have to do something and be alert, a keep siege on hib is incredibly boring when you aren't a caster.
You can have a sorc come out and ae rupt everything at bolt range while a cab/necro/sorc train blows something up rq then back out of sight works. It does require a bit more coordination. You need to move around the keep, you can't stay at the same spot waiting for a hib caster that has you targetted to instantly stun you when you peak out the rampart.
And for sure you need to be alert on the heals to notice someone getting stunned and debuffed, but that's true in every realm.
I mean isn't it kind of normal that you should lose 20 v 80? In a heavily one sided fight, shouldn't siege be the best tool?
@Shoke I am not saying you should win against 80 attackers with only 20 defenders, I am saying this is not an issue against a Mid BG attacking, it is Hib specific problem. its not only Alb who have give up, Mids dont even defend when they have a BG let alone Alb casuals in random PUG. No Fun = No people to play.
@Triq02_Dave Other than removing all casted stun i cant think or anything better. I am open to suggestions other than Get Good.
I am not one of the people want to win at all costs, I could devote enough time to be 133t but that does nothing for people who just want fun.
maybe he should show . how to kill hero
@47el Didnt Ramik leave alb when Luvly/Billing quit and Teddy couldnt compete any more? I may be wrong ofc
This time 4,000. Get rid of that stupid /use on the Wizards cloak so that cancerous playstyle goes away. Albs would do so much better IF there were more stormlords and Tanks in a BG setting.
nothing worse than having someone standing in your storm while your group is trying to reposition lol
hehe yeah that's a rough one. It would be great it you could treat storms like pets by pulling up the pet window to cancel them. But we can all dream right?
The main issue with Slam was hybrids slamming and killing within the slam duration, the same issue here with Hib stun on a debuff class.
Maybe a reduced stun duration as cast speeds have got faster would restore the spell closer to what it originally was when implemented and cast speed was slower. Just a thought...
You never stun tanks anyways and if you do, the tank in your group is 100% in his right to call you an idiot. 5 sec duration still makes it possible to kill, without it being a garanteed kill (need to assist quickly).
I'd be 100% OK with that change tbh.
- change hib stun to 5 sec duration
- change wizard loyalty cloak for the RM cloak
- change elemental debuffs (cold, heat, matter) from the Body sorc line to the wizard Earth line.
And give Reavers a 2-handed Morning Star please