Is it time to create a new Pre ToA server?

Hi all,

As population has been low in DAoC for along time. Is it time we brought out a new Pre ToA server for those that preferred the old times of DAoC?



  • In my opinion if Broadsword opened another server it may help create more action for the ywain servers but not only that but creates 2 servers that are different that players have an option rather than sticking to the new version of DAoC which will entice players in i feel.
  • Also more money for broadsword to develop the servers and make them better. :)
  • They did that before Solic. It did well for a short period of time but eventually numbers dwindled. My Nightshade was originally created on a classic server back then
  • Pre TOA is bleh

    Just roll back before the 'class balance' patch...and maybe throw in ruined keep. There was a lot to love in Ywain (please note the 'was')....just go back to 'classic ywain' (pre pet/stealther patch)

  • They should flesh out EC first, imo. Then they can consider making a second server. I've seen several suggestions for a ladder / season server which would allow characters to be rolled over to Ywain at the end. I think this could be improved by rotating between rulesets (PvP, classic, stealthers?). Something like that could spice up the game a bit.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." -
  • Pre ToA was meh. If this includes OF I remember the hours spent at the milegate bottlenecks, unable to get through due to Hib PB groups like Dem Hibbies camping the gate room.

    Let's mention the time it took to get to 50...........very few, if any, had more than 1 lvl 50 due to the huge time sink when levelling.

    People have this habit of looking at everything Pre ToA through rose tinted specs. It was good but post ToA is better.
  • Kat wrote: »
    Pre TOA is bleh

    ....and 450-600 players at primetime is better? Mhm.....
  • Kat wrote: »
    Pre TOA is bleh

    ....and 450-600 players at primetime is better? Mhm.....

    You won't see those sorts of numbers again sadly and ToA has nothing to do with it.
  • i'd like an official classic server because i don't like toa stuff, catacombs classes, and all the new changes made to all classes. i think it would be a good opportunity to make a classic or progression server when f2p launches but i asked carol and she said it's not in the work. f2p with all those limitations and no new server will probably be the death of daoc, calculating all the resources they're using for what i think is nothing. good thing there are other places with 10x the population and the fun :)
  • It’s fairly obvious that there is a significant demand for a classic/si with QoL changes...

    These forums won’t produce that answer and that’s part of what’s wrong with Live. A very small percent of Live engages here yet this is what they use.

  • edited January 2019 PM
    Post edited by Midithir on
  • edited January 2019 PM
    Beeks wrote: »
    Kat wrote: »
    Pre TOA is bleh

    ....and 450-600 players at primetime is better? Mhm.....

    You won't see those sorts of numbers again sadly and ToA has nothing to do with it.

    [ToS] it`s all about ToA. (one of the best addons, imo)

    If you want to reach this part of the daoc-community, ask them what they want.
    Post edited by Midithir on
  • Does anyone read the other posts in here before commenting? Just read what is posted and you will get the reason why they will never put in a classic non-ToA server. One person wants that, another loves ToA, another wants it pushed to like 1.23 or prior to the 'class balance' patch. We all have our personal opinions on what constitutes the best version of DAoC and very few of those line up with others. The only idea that makes some semblance of sense is a ladder/progression server that works through all the patch settings and ends with your toon dropped on the regular Ywain server at the end. The other option would be to have a classic server, an SI server, a ToA server, a Catacombs server, etc... That would kill and not help the game at all since the population would be split so thin across all of these servers.
  • If only this could be discussed without the Hammer coming down on this thread and close it....

    Live is by far, best option to play Daoc.
    Issue is population problem but at least for my time slot and playstyle it has slowly getting better.

    insert youtube clip of Peter Sellers Birdie nam nam Scene in illustration on how it progress atm
  • I’d be fine with a classic basic template official DAOC server. But unlike the knockoff one, is like super fast xp
  • [ToS] Time boys, hold your thoughts and don't express them, its hammer time
  • They did, it died, NEXT QUESTION. :)
  • I thought the same @Badnagen but peoples memories are short.
  • Drop the hammer, stick your head into the sand, but there is a very significant demand for Classic/Si with QoL changes...

    It makes sense to bring this into live if f2p is to be successful
  • Fateboi wrote: »
    Drop the hammer, stick your head into the sand, but there is a very significant demand for Classic/Si with QoL changes...

    It makes sense to bring this into live if f2p is to be successful

    While there may be a demand, there is little player retention long term. I think a ladder/season server type would be awesome and may address players losing interest over time.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." -
  • Could a Pre-TOA PVP server come back at all? I feel like population is far too spread for an entire 3 realm RVR.
  • With the new server out hib euro primetime has went from 250-350 to 150! At the point of thegane i would be all for a post toa server that had the current leveling/omni pot system
  • Yes it sounds wonderful and all.. but the last thing this game/population needs is to be split further.
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  • Impounded wrote: »
    Yes it sounds wonderful and all.. but the last thing this game/population needs is to be split further.

  • Live is already way too late to the party the demand is there yet ‘they’ look the other way.

    F2p so far sounds too restrictive. Their only hope is to offer something different like seasonal/ladder play. Lasts 2-6 months then auto transfer the entire sever back into Ywain. Then the server is wiped and next season starts. Can use the backup sever to Pendragon.

    People want a new, a fresh start, with the QoL changes.
  • Everyone says it will split the population but the problem here is we are losing people regardless even if we don't have a new server. We need something new and a new server would provide a big step forward to creating maybe the ywain servers a bigger population in the long run.

    We just need options and not restrictions and 2-3 servers with different rule sets is what is needed if you want to keep things fresh in DAoC. I also think the subs should be lowered as this game is so old, if we brought the price down to around 5 pounds/10 dollers I'm pretty sure that will help.
  • The “new server” will slow down soon enough. I literally got to lvl 22 and wanted to claw my eyes out. For new and long time returning people who aren’t used to the game, it’s a good experience I guess. The problem I foresee with f2p is that on the new server, everyone is currently leveling for the most part, so groups are very common. With f2p, I don’t think you will get the kind of influx of people and groups available to make the slow grind faster.

    The xp should not be slowed down. I think it should be possible for new people to level just as fast as live currently. Make restrictions rvr and item based. Rr4l9, maybe cl10, ml10 and only let ow and older items usable. That way they can still compete decently, might get some people to pay for a sub to unlock their rr5 ability and the items that you can only used at cl15. That way people can get a fairly good idea of real rvr, but not get completely destroyed by paying subs toons. That in and of itself would make me not want to actually pay for a game that I never played and literally got flawlessly destroyed by a rr12 geared to the teeth. Now if I got a taste of rvr and maybe could have killed something with my mediocre gear, I might be more inclined to pay for a sub to unlock better gear and higher rr
  • Paying for a sub to unlock gear is a bad idea. We wouldn't have a small population if the sub model worked on its own.

    Remember, there were multiple rulesets in the past (PvP and "Classic"). These servers didn't last because they too suffered from population decline. Bringing them back doesn't solve the problem(s) they had.

    F2P needs to be a functional form of DAoC that allows them to compete at the same level as subbed players. Otherwise, we won't retain any new or returning players making the whole effort pointless.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." -
  • edited January 2019 PM
    Personally with all the people i have played with in DAoC from release to now, i dont recall anyone ever quitting over the 15$ a month, there might have been a few that quit over buffbots, but thats pretty much been sorted with NPC's and potions.
    Everyone seem to have quit over things done to the game, ToA, Class balance, cursed, OW, OP items / procs / uses, cashshop, too many /uses to juggle making small man and solo too timer based and unfun, etc.
    The people i talk to that have quit in the last 2 -3 years, no amount of free to play will bring them back, some of them would happily pay more per month in sub if it brought a better DAoC back, it all comes down to what have been done to classes in the last few years, that the answer to everything PvE is OW and cursed where every other zone feels useless, and things done to RvR.

    Personally i feel that DAoC have become too shallow, it have become too much about fast 1-50, do OW + cursed, now forget about the rest of the game and go zerg quest updates for RP's and BP's. Personally i miss DF, ML10, ToA, Gala, Sidi, Tuscarn, AC, Moderna, fins, task dungeon pugs, just to name a few. Not enough community building things thise days that makes players care about each other and the world they are playing in.

    DAoC pretty much went from spending hours with pugs farming XP, items, and so on, to quest 1 - 50 solo, quest for items 1 run per char OW / cursed with 7 others for a few hours with no reason to repeat, talk or see each other again, then go be random person 304 in a RvR BG.

    Imo FTP wont fix this, retuning players will be faced with the same reason they quit in the first place, new players i doubt would join DAoC with the ftp model planned, with all the other options out there that are less restictive with higher populations and what i guess would seem like a less gloomy future to a new player.

    A new server of some sort would be a good idea imo, send out a survey to closed DAoC accounts, learn the reason why they quit and what would bring them back. Send a different survey to active accounts, figure out what they like and dislike about ywain and gaheris. Replies made from closed accounts are rewarded with 7 days sub, replies from active accounts are rewarded with a set ammount of mithril. Build new and repair old servers from that. Trying to figure things out from the 5% of the playerbase that use the forum are not good enough.

    If we like it or not, the DAoC population are already split between the Ywain players and the none Broadsword players, winning the players not with broardsword back, i personally think will benefit DAoC and ywain more, then whats currently happening.

    I dont like private servers for alot of reasons and i would never play them, i really think tho that Broadsword need to pull something out of a darkplace people normaly sit on and do something before its too late.

    Anyways thats the thoughts, feelings and ramblings of one of the many old grumpy DAoC players.

    Oh dear what a text wall.
    Post edited by Vrisslar on
  • Random zerger 304 was how the game originally was in the beginning. The 8 vs 8, solo, small man became sub populations of the realm vs realm Zerg game
  • edited January 2019 PM
    BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Random zerger 304 was how the game originally was in the beginning. The 8 vs 8, solo, small man became sub populations of the realm vs realm Zerg game

    I would say that depended alot on the server, but generally yeah, however back then you had alot more community building PvE and pugs. Atleast thats how i felt it. Personally i tried to solo, small man and zerg from the first day i set foot in a RvR zone.

    I guess you could say back then zerging was for a different goal too, it was for your realm to archive something, you felt apart of the community that was either Alb, hib or mid, you had friendships from PvE pugs that you grouped with to fight for your realm and guild, to me its alot different to taking empty keeps with a zerg for quest updates.
    Painting all mid keeps red for the first time on Alb Excalibur on EU, with alot of mids fighting back, felt alot more fun, then taking empty keeps with none caring thise days.
    Atleast thats some of the differences i personally feel.
    Post edited by Vrisslar on
  • could say realm pride died along with the population..........

    make a server with only one realm as an option and see what happens :)

    hib igraine :)
  • @Vrisslar you said everything what DAOC actually used to be and people actually enjoyed, ML raids, df raids, dragon raids, all the other raids you have mentioned is what daoc is about. Everything has become so easy that folks don't even remember what those raids are about anymore. Who didn't enjoy a Legion raid? omg used to be awesome stuff :) But anyways some folks just want easy stuff get to 50, rr14, then what? LOL is when this stuff happens because people don't help the game themselves to make it better. Have you all thought about it?, not just BS, you all have asked for the easy stuff you got it.
  • edited January 2019 PM
    Time constraints make old school raids less appealing. Nostalgic but not optimal. DAoC is focused around RvR. The PvE is a means to that end. If I wanted a fun PvE experience, I'd play a number of other MMOs.

    Edit: The old Galladoria raids that lasted ~10 hours were fun to some point but there was never a guarantee to get loot. I don't miss that.
    Post edited by Tyrantanic on
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." -
  • DAOC demographic for the most part is past the point where we can spend hours raiding.
  • Everyone just wants end game. Competing with all the RR 14's and to have a level playing field.. There are alot of sub-rr10 people coming back, and they're doing alot of catch up.

    With the market inflation and lack of macro groups now selling plat/items.. There needs to be an alternative way to get end-game items to keep up with the other half of the server..
  • Nightmare wrote: »
    Everyone just wants end game.

    They just want endgame because it`s the only stuff to do atm. There`s absolutly nothing between....
  • edited January 2019 PM
    Most of the old things took less time then cursed did before its nerf tbh ( Yes i know not full ML runs and SI dungeons ) and had less bugs, LD's and quest confusion, you had reason to come back and do it again for drops to sell, for alts, for plats, for loot to give to friends.

    For people that didnt want to farm, like i personally didnt want to when i was mainly focused on 8 mans, the PvE crowd had things ready for me to buy in housing.

    I love to play support chars, i have multiple druids, bards, healers, shamans, clerics etc, from EU and US servers, farming items for my zerg surfing chanter, could be done on my druid that i really enjoyed to play in groups, where i didnt much care for my chanter in groups, with OW and cursed thats dead too cause its 1 completion per char and armor rewards only within your armor class. ( Let me reset the quest chain so i can repeat it and open up all rewards to all classes or make nameds drop the items too ? )

    DAoC was never only about the RvR tbh. On days when you werent in the mood for PvP you had plenty of PvE options and pretty much all the expansions been about PvE. Thats another thing that made DAoC great to me, i had both to fit whatever i was in the mood for.

    Many of the people in RvR, defending and playing for realm pride, used to be PvE'ers fighting for the realm, the cosantoir / vakten /warder army that came out to defend the relics and keeps on the servers i played on atleast.

    There are alot of big and minor reasons why the population is as it is, i can only list the ones i know about from chatting with old friends and guildies, many of who would love to return.

    I kind of find it funny that out of all the things i listed that i know made my guildies and friends quit, the PvE part are the one jumped on immediately, the only response given is some things took too long, i would guess there are a happy medium between 10 hour raids and the 2 quest chains we got now.
    Like update ML10 stuff, dragon items, DF items, to bring it in line with OW and cursed, give anfang, green knight, etc items worth having, create diversity in templates and PvE options again, or maybe just kill the powercreep that happend with OW, cursed and new DF items, remove myth stats from it all and bring procs / uses in line with the rest. ( Yes not gonna be popular :P )

    But i guess there is no point in even trying to have a talk about it on thise forums, as everyone here seem to be happy with what they got except the population, while happily ignoring what reasons made the population they miss quit in the first place.

    I know im in a minority in the current DAoC population, for liking every aspect of the game, from PvE to RvR, Solo to BG's. Maybe its time for me to leave too, time will tell i guess when sub runs out in a couple of months.
    Post edited by Vrisslar on
  • Sorry Beetle I have to disagree. DAOC is not only focused around rvr was never and will never be, part of that is because all the raids mentioned is fun and people miss that. PVE/RVR is what daoc is about.
  • edited January 2019 PM
    toa was my fav expansion, i HATE pve in EVERY game, i refuse to do it until my friends get tired of waiting around for me and just do it for me

    but i LOVE toa, toa was awesome, so many different cool zones with awesome looking stuff and many different types of pve boss encounters, always stuff to farm

    game doesn't have population to make another server tho, it would be great if they gave artifacts a new or upgraded /use, that only worked if you went out and did the encounter or something, but seems to much work for them to do probably, it would be quite a lot of work i thinks

    *edit* doh didn't read any posts cuz im to late to the party, and now i see the title said PRE toa, neverminds !
    and toa is awesome **** pre toa, pre toa sux and so does everything after
    Post edited by Huehuaehue on
  • People miss a healthy community. It doesn't matter if it's RVR or PVE, the community is too fractured. Hell there aren't even large guilds around anymore, not like there used to be. That's what draws people to shard servers, the fact that there are a lot of people to play with.
  • edited January 2019 PM
    Sadly I feel like live is no longer competing vs the free versions, the amount of resources and new elements brought by a free option is starting to make the paid for version look lacklustre. The community on live also feels stale with zerg and zerg with no purpose (siege fights are almost a thing of the past) and barely any real 8 man action, when was the last time live had 3,000 active players? DAoC is an awesome game and has huge playability to it there is also obviously a community and demand for it still.

    I feel pre-toa actually has a nice feel to it, although i could care less about pre-toa or post-toa, I've had great times on live, I feel like both my subscriptions sadly will be coming to an end
    Post edited by albionexile on
    AlbionExiles (Warden) | AlbionExecutioner (Champion) | AlbionExile (Bainshee)
  • Well... Live DAoC has come down to... RP bonuses. That is literally the only thing I see people get excited for.

    People are going from 1-50 in 3 hours, R7 in a week, you don't talk to anyone aside from the 6 friends you have left, you always rvr with the same group, you never invite randos into groups, the lfg chat should be rename the "looking for friends" chat. You get jammed you bitch about it, you never know if you are allowed to hit or not hit, you finally get in a good fight after 35 minutes of roaming just to get zerged, etc.

    I don't think the patch level has anything to do with it, pre or post ToA isn't relevant. The free aspect kind of makes it more friendly for casuals that don't feel like they need to maximize their membership (15$ isn't much, but still more than zero). More casuals = more pop, that's it.

    Progression has boiled to RPs and that's it. There's nothing else, it's just an empty shell where people will go out of their way to be a cancer to the game (stealth zergers I'm looking at you) so they can get RPs.
  • edited January 2019 PM
    There some really interesting points

    I for one think there is many issue that I've been hearing from a lot of people I run with is the and one of them is realm timers. This has been a constant issue that has come up many times but hasn't been sorted. The other thing is that the PvE content has gone from DAoC and doesn't exist. There is no community to level with as most can literally solo 1-50 in a day. This game was about team play and I've seen less and less of that since the increase or RP's which as gone way over the top and no realm timers.

    Also half of the battlegrounds are empty and also the area's that people used to PvE are empty. This game has lost it's full potential and trying to narrow it so much to RvR has ruined this game. I agree the end content is RvR but you have to have a challenge in order to make people prepared for RvR and understand their toon. I think we've also failed to realise that people do play this game for PvE also and I'm afraid you lost that community. You need content and have a good idea how to structure this game in order to make it for people to enjoy. I'm afraid live servers fail all those expectations and for that that's why we are not getting people to stay.

    F2P will not solve the issue of population it's the whole structure that needs to be solved from levelling to making battlegrounds active and to make area's worth playing in. If you narrow everything to one zone that's just creating restrictions and people like options. I get why they are trying to focus the action in one area due to activity is much lower than it used to be but then you are telling players that this game is dying. You need to have positivity where you make area's worth playing in again!

    I understand this is hard thing to conquer but the way Broadsword are going will not bring in new or many returning players back. You only had to look at the first Come back to Camelot Campaign where population increased massively and then once over it quickly went back down again and you then realise that people don't like the direction of where this is going.
    Post edited by Solicfear1 on
  • edited January 2019 PM
    My true feeling is Broadsword are getting the wrong information and not listening to those that don't play the game and only improving the game for those that play already which is also creating issue's. You need to look at the bigger picture and I just don't feel we are looking for the future of the game we are looking backwards and short term solutions.

    If Broadsword wont change things to improve the future of DAoC others will!
    Post edited by Solicfear1 on
  • There are many ppl with active live-subs playing over there.
    I could write what they want, but BS is not able to deliver that.

    Just 2 points.... realmtimer and a monitored game where cheaters get what what they deserve, without that the community has to do the gamemasters job.
  • @Solicfear , very sad. But you said it all. I cant express how sad I feel seeing a game I been playing since it came out going the way it is. :(
  • Agreed 100% with you @Shoke. I would love to point out that a certain other server opened to much similar population only to be running at 150-200 during it's prime time now. Mark my words, this new server will be no different. It will die down there eventually.
  • Once the “newness” wears off those free servers, the population always declines
  • JakJak
    edited January 2019 PM
    There is some interesting feedback from people and it is good to get the feel of what others are thinking.

    I don't have the answers to any of it. I do however, think that people want the game to continue and succeed, but there are way too many issues to address at this point, that it may be impossible to fix.

    There is no longer a sense of 'realm' pride. People chase the rp's and that is it. What I don't understand is why? I chalk most of it up to selfishness. The rp's are not going to get you anywhere when there is no longer a player base to even sustain the rp drive that is so desperately sought.

    The player base has become so toxic, that why would you even want to engage with someone that you don't know. Once upon a time, you used to make groups with people you didn't know, if someone was rude/ruined an encounter/greed over need on loot; you would disband then and not group with them. You would go out of your way to help people in your guild/alliance do raids, questing etc. You no longer need anyone in game to achieve those items, epic gear (what? who uses this?) etc. I can essentially go from 1-50, outfit my toon, get ml lines, etc and not interact with anyone in which to do so. That goes against the whole premise of what the game was founded on. It was about the journey.

    It has nothing to do with play styles in rvr. Those have been around since day one. To pander to one set of play style is not helping the game as it flies in the face of everything that it originally stood for.

    It is human nature to want to place blame on someone, whether it is the community, the knights (are they still around?), or BS themselves. The blame is on all of us for allowing it to get to where it is. That being said, the buck stops at BS. It is supposed to be their vision of the game and where they want to take it. Leadership starts with leading and having a clear vision of where/what you want to lead too. Several years ago it was asked in an mmo mag, where do you see Doac in 5 years? There was no answer to this question. You have to have a vision of where you want to be.

    It is clear that there are a lot of passionate people out there, that still care for the game and want it to succeed.
    Post edited by Jak on
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