A returning player's opinion on BG's (and DAOC in general)

For whatever my opinion is worth, here goes.

I haven't played DAOC in years. When I re-opened two of my accounts I found almost a dozen lvl 24 toons from all 3 races that I had created. Once upon a time, I loved going to Thid. I utterly hated RvR. I was pretty disappointed to find most all of the BG's, including Molv, are something akin to a desolate wasteland. This will likely be a lengthy post but hopefully, the dev's or someone can make sense of my returning players experience and use it to fix whatever's broken. Here goes.

Yes, I hated RvR and I'm pretty sure I still do. Reasons: I don't like playing games where I spend weeks or months preparing for PvP and then, stand there and watch while my toon is unable to move, react or fight back and gets slaughtered repeatedly. Mez and roots, even in Thid were always a huge issue for me. In RvR, it was always worse because by that point, I'd invested a large amount of time gearing up just to have that happen all over again. I play PvP for the fights, for the adrenaline. Having your character turn completely catatonic for the entire fights' duration while their skull is caved in is not my idea of PvP. I even went so far as to template both a scout and a tic. I spent huge amounts of time farming and gearing them for RvR. In the end, I found both about as useless as tits on a boar hog. Aside from the dying without even being able to put up a resistance, the other issue I had was the vast difference in 'toys' that long time PvP'ers have over newer players.

I never got my ML's because of the fact that it took groups to do that (yes, I know about the glass quests now). I never spent the weeks it took to get champ levels because I always perceived that most of the benefits of maxing champ are relatively lame and mostly useless. And, I never got enough RR on any toon to even get Long Wind 5 because I always got disgusted when I went out to try to get RP. I ended up being THEIR method for getting RP.

On my return, I decided to try RvR one more time. And I found the net results to be the same if not worse. Now, the objectives have changed. The old 100 player zergs where I once had a HOPE of surviving for more than 5 minutes and gaining a few RP... are long gone. Now, it's the 8v8 groups running around at speeds where I can't even target them. Keeps and towers are no longer the focus of RvR. So rushing my scout to whatever keep or tower was on fire with the hope of shooting someone isn't there any more. It seems most don't care about keeps or towers and when they do, someone in region chat asks them why they're even bothering with keeps. What I found was a confusing list of apparently new objectives on Ellan that seemed to serve no real purpose other than a magnet for stealthers and those 8-player groups. In the few attempts I made with the scout and tic to head out to rvr, I ended up logging out both, dead and in utter disgust.

Now, before you say it, yes, all of those things happen in Thid. Here's the difference. In Thid, I'm not spending the next 20 minutes running through enemy territory trying to get back to where I was and hopefully, find the bastids that killed me and even the score. Yes, I know you can teleport all over the place now. RVR is still a vast area and TP'ing rarely gets you close to the fight. Even if I see a tower on fire, it's gonna take me 10 minutes to teleport as close as I can get and then ride a horse to that location and hope I don't meet some Skald+7 who's screening the area. In the BG's, I can be back to the spot where I died in less than 5 minutes and that's walking while stealthed. In the BG's, I can usually be back to the exact spot where I died before Rez wears off. That's a lot less time to dwell on how pissed I am that I didn't even get a chance to fight back. Instead, I can spend that 5 minutes dwelling on how I'm gonna gank them.

In the BG's I don't have to spend massive amounts of time farming gear, ML's or anything else. I can go in RR1, ML0, CL0, artifacts 0, mythical nothing, crap RNG gear and still get a kill by using skill and timing (and a bit of luck.) I used to run around Thid in some really sucky Aurulite gear and still enjoyed the game and still get kills. Did I get PA'd a buch? Oh yea. Was I afforded the opportunity to get even? Oh yea, and I did (wait for them to PA someone else and dump a load of air pets on them). In RvR, the person who killed you is just as anonymous as the person across town. In Thid, I got to recognize players and placed many on my **** list. In RvR, I have no idea who they are or if I'll ever see them again and the vast majority of the time, I'm dead so fast that I don't even know what race or class they were. I'm just dead. Went to a keep yesterday with my scout (I was amazed that Albs were taking a keep!). Dead. 1100+ damage in ONE hit. And that's with an old template I still considered decent. Worst part, I have no idea what killed me. None. I saw no one around me, I saw no spell effect, nothing. I just fell over dead and some Mid got credit.

SO... I was disappointed to find that, for the most part, the BG's were empty. Now I've read some explanations as to why this likely happened. One reason was lvl 50 ammo in siege doing massive damage to low level toons. Yep, I remember that and it was bad, really bad. I've read discussions where it was all the 'cowards' and templated toons that caused everyone to leave. I don't think so. I know lots did template. It was even more hilarious to me when I killed them. And that was fine by me. Regardless of how great or perfect in Thid your template was, you were killable. In RvR, I've seen players take massive amounts of damage and still get away (something I never figured out how to do.) While I never 'templated' for Thid, I did eventually get into crafting gear for my characters and tried to have my idea of decent gear. And that allowed even more fun. I was then able to take out some of those who did template even easier. Picture a female highlander in purple chain carrying a shield & mace. Healer? Many a stealther thought so. I used to stand her out in the open between APK and CK as if she were afk. After surviving the PA or backstab they were very surprised when she threw dirt in their faces and started smashing them with styles. I even made an Avalonian healer/merc in order to really enforce the embarrassment. Now that was some fun times. Apparently that's all gone now. And what if I tried to duplicate that fun in RvR? I guarantee you that if you that if some noob to RvR made a female highlander in chain and stood her on a bridge to Ellan as if she were afk... well... I'm sure you can imagine how that would go down.

I can't point to any one thing I see that was a reason everyone left. What I can point to are things that I see that keep them from being as popular as they once were.

1. BG bounty quests. I went in to Thid with a lvl 20 Inf in horrid gear. Within an hour I was lvl 24. If I hadn't used /xp off, I would have levelled out of Thid before I got all the gear I wanted. Once upon a time I was excited when we took CK because that meant a NICE xp bonus from a quest. I don't need to do that any more.
2. BG bounty gear - Once upon a time I made a few coins crafting good weapons for Thid with procs. Before I even went into Thid I had one weapon with a proc and a flame effect from my trainer (something I once used as an excuse to get to 50, my own glowy's.) I got the second proc weapon from bounty quests a few minutes later. Procs in Thid used to be the holy grail. If you had someone smack you and a proc went off, you knew you were in trouble. Giving those out like candy cheapens the whole process of 'earning' them either by learning crafting skills or farming the gold to buy one.
3. BG bounty gear - And I was wondering why in 3 days I hadn't sold a thing on my consignment merchant. Now I know why. I remember people standing around the housing entrance shopping for gear and I would at least make enough to pay for my deed. Now, that's just as desolate as the BG's. Why buy anything when you can get plenty by farming a quest for an hour in every single BG? I even too another Inf I have to Leir and sure enough, there were bounty quests there to do which was almost as good as the crafted gear he was wearing (which I paid a small fortune for). The only consolation I had was, there were a couple of hibs out farming their own BG gear which made easy targets.
4. BG bounty gear - I recall spending hours in Killaloe farming for Shadow in the Trees to get the nice cloak drop. Guess I don't need to waste my time in that BG either any more. Having some rare items like that pelt were a source of pride. It made me feel just a little less likely to die in one hit. Now, it's a joke to waste time farming something when it's useless compared to what you can get for next to nothing.
5. BG bounty gear - Once upon a time I farmed Aurulite like mad for my Thid toons. Well, that gear is been pretty much outclassed by bounty gear. While there are a few pieces where, depending on the class, Aurulite gear is a slight bit better, it's not enough to justify the hours of farming it took. The only thing I've farmed since coming back has been glass. I now have around 60k glass and have to ask myself why? I don't need ML's on my 50's to PvE. RvR pisses me off with the insta deaths so I don't need ML's for that. The BG's are empty and definitely don't need glass for that. And now that acquiring money is as easy to do as wiping your ass, I don't even need to sell it.

Years ago, before any of the expansions, I played DAOC with a good friend of mine. He played one character, an armsman. In every game we played, he would focus intently on getting that one toon to max level as fast as he could. I could never keep up with him because I enjoyed playing a variety of classes. I'd get tired of one, log in another and keep playing. I recall spending hours on Salisbury Plains doing quests, I recall being happy when we got Darkness Falls. I could go farm gear. I recall the piles of tombstones lying around the entrances to dungeons and how people would cluster around them trying to find groups. I recall people running toward the dungeon entrance with a trail of red mobs behind them. I recall standing on the pad in Sauvage with a BG necklace around my neck (I still have one). I recall forgetting to wear those necklaces and being half pissed. I recall when tic's came out and I was one of the first to have one in Thid and how 3 Norse camped me at APK and started laughing when my AOE focus snare's first tick did almost no damage to them. And how I returned that laugh when they kept standing there and all 3 fell over dead. I play games like DAOC for what I call 'moments' just like those above. Most are funny things that happened that stick in my head for years. I have no 'moments' that I recall from RvR. I have dozens from Thid.

The difference about the way my friend and I played, he wanted to get to the destination. I however, always thought the journey was the fun part. He quit playing long before I did. His reasoning, too many ranged classes. He told me that his fun in RvR involved him standing around with his polearm waving in the air protecting casters. I kept playing because I was still enjoying the journey. I began collecting trophy's for my house. I began collecting TOA artifacts. I still have a HUGE collection of pages and books. I enjoyed the PvE as much as the BG's and LOTS more than the RvR.

As I see it: While TOA was the nightmare that cut DAOC's throat, the attempt to correct that mistake has been taken to the extreme. Today, it seems the entire game is focused on getting characters to RvR as fast as possible. In the process of doing so, the game has lost a lot of what was once fun. It has lost it's character. The BG's are vacant, the economy is busted and many of the reasons I hung around, like farming Aurulite for BG gear, well, there's just no point in it. TBH, I'm not sure what to do now. I could have spent the time it took me to write this playing DAOC. But since I'm not sure where to go or what to do to any more to find those 'moments', I spent that time writing this.

While I will likely hang around till Endless Conquest comes out and see what changes that brings (though it will be with just 1 account, not the 3 I once had up and running), I fear many new and returning players coming to the game will experience the same thing I am, a BG full of ghosts, an RvR where it seems hopeless to be even competitive and a vast world to explore with a system that does it's utmost to warp you past all of it. I fear their 'moments' will be few and far between.

Comments

  • edited October 2018 PM
    Just as a bit of an experiment to emphasize my points, I logged my Inf into Thid. I grabbed the haste buff and ran out to the badgers in front of APK. There I found a scout farming BP. I noted he was lvl 21. I hit the stealth button and hung around for maybe a minute, maybe two, to see if he'd make good bait since he was blue to me. Not seeing any takers, I dropped stealth and ran over to the Mid side. Once I got near the BP mobs over there, I stealthed up again and made a check of the badgers, beetles and tomte. No farmers. So, I dropped stealth and ran over to the Hib side. Again, I stealthed up, checked the 3 BP quest spots and saw nothing. So, I dropped out of stealth and ran to CK. Feeling bored, I did a couple of laps around the outside and headed back to APK to log out.

    When I got back I stood in CK for a moment contemplating things. The scout came in, collected his quest reward and gained a level. I noted he was lvl 24. I still had almost 3 minutes left on my 15 minute haste buff.

    In less that 15 minutes, he accomplished what once would have taken me days, he would be leaving with gear comparable to what I would have had to pay a small fortune to have crafted, and in another 5 minutes, he left Thid.

    So, if you want to know why the BG's are empty, the question you have to ask players is, what's the incentive to stay? Once upon a time, the BG's were the fastest way to level. And you gained a few RP in the process. Today, they're still the fastest way to level. But, instead of taking days, it takes mere minutes. When a player can level out of the BG in less time than it takes to do a sweep of the area then there's no point for either that player, nor the one who wants to PvP to stick around.

    I checked a few of my old Thid toons. Most of them have between 100-200 kills with a dozen or two solo kills.

    Now I ask you, when Endless comes out and you have these completely new players rocketing their way to lvl 50 (I've read accounts of that being done in an afternoon) in gear that makes PvE look like day spent playing Minecraft, what's going to happen when they get to RvR and have yet to even experience a single PvP fight in DAOC? What's going to happen to their ego when they think they're all bad-ass with their BG gear with no clue what a /qbind is and some stealth whacks them for 1000 damage and they fall over dead?

    DAOC pve has been dumbed down to the point that it's is too easy and doesn't even come close to preparing you for what RvR can dish out. They won't even be able to come back to the BG's to PvP like I did because there won't be anyone there.

    My 2 cents. I'm done now.
    Post edited by Fengist on
  • edited October 2018 PM
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    Post edited by Fengist on
  • I mean this with the utmost respect fengist, it sounds to me like you just were on the outskirts of understanding the full grasp of the concept of the game. the point of the game 100% is to get to lvl 50, and to rvr. ive experienced most of what you just described and thats all part of what you go through as a low level and minimally grouped player. in 50 rvr the roots/mezzes/stuns become much less affective than in BGs because of purge, and your group members curing your mezz, speed of sound, etc. CC is always very important in daoc and maybe if you think its too OP you should make a demezz class and play that role for your groups. PvE was never meant to prepare you for rvr, thats what the battlegrounds do. if you play around in the 45-49 BG you should have some luck with players to kill and less craziness than the 50 gameplay. id suggest adopting the group play style and getting yourself accustomed to those tactics. its not as outlandish as it may seeem from the outside. youre likely dying to realy good groups who have played together for years.
  • Tip for developing your skills: just take advice from people in game. they may be rude about it sometimes but most players tips/criticisms have helped me in the long run.
  • Amagician wrote: »
    I mean this with the utmost respect fengist, it sounds to me like you just were on the outskirts of understanding the full grasp of the concept of the game. the point of the game 100% is to get to lvl 50, and to rvr. ive experienced most of what you just described and thats all part of what you go through as a low level and minimally grouped player. in 50 rvr the roots/mezzes/stuns become much less affective than in BGs because of purge, and your group members curing your mezz, speed of sound, etc. CC is always very important in daoc and maybe if you think its too OP you should make a demezz class and play that role for your groups. PvE was never meant to prepare you for rvr, thats what the battlegrounds do. if you play around in the 45-49 BG you should have some luck with players to kill and less craziness than the 50 gameplay. id suggest adopting the group play style and getting yourself accustomed to those tactics. its not as outlandish as it may seeem from the outside. youre likely dying to realy good groups who have played together for years.

    I have a 50 scout. She's in an old template with TOA gear. Nothing spectacular but not RNG gear either. Took her out to RvR the other day. Found a small group of hibs fighting mids. Thot this was a chance to maybe get a few rp before I got slaughtered. Crit shot against a Lurk eldy. 0 damage. Power shot against the same Lurk eldy. 0 damage. Standard shot against the same, exact Lurk eldy, 0 damage. Scout stunned... dead. I'm not talking about him being healed, I'm talking about doing NO DAMAGE.

    Meanwhile, I've since taken a horrid fit, horrid spec merc out to Molv. 30 minutes into doing BP quests I had my first skald kill and I was at least 2 levels below them. THAT was a fun fight.

    Do you see the difference? Do you see why it really irks me to have crap like that happen in RvR? I still have a fighting chance in the BG's in crap gear, RR1 and not even max level. I spent days farming that TOA gear for that scout. Tell me, why in God's name would I again spend weeks or months gathering the money, gear & crafting skills to rework a template for her and still suck? I have 8 lvl 50's and I don't take any of them to RvR because of gameplay just like that. While I heartily appreciate your advice and I'm not trying to make a rude reply, tell me, exactly how much more of an understanding of RvR do I need to acquire to know that masochism is not a playstyle I like?

    But back to BG's: You say the BG's are designed to prepare you for RvR. Yesterday I started an cleric buffbot for Molv. I soloed through all of the BG's doing BP quests and encountered 1 enemy, a lurikeen who felt the pointy end of a smite spec cleric (I respec'd enh at 39). Today, he's in Molv and I even took my time. How much RvR preparation do you suppose noobs get when they can go from 0 to 50 in less than a day? How many of them are gonna fall off that learning cliff when they get to RvR and find another game to play?
  • So you’re mad you couldn’t leech rps on a fight like you could back in the day 2-3 shotting casters from 2k+ range? On top of having a toa template only? Not for nothing but those templates have been out of date and not competitive for years. You’d be better off in kings gear.

    I do hate the fact that everything is gear and timer driven, but I spent time and got some ranks and awesome gear and can now compete.
  • BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    So you’re mad you couldn’t leech rps on a fight like you could back in the day 2-3 shotting casters from 2k+ range?

    But it's ok for those casters to mez/stun a tank at 1500 range and nuke them dead in 3 hits? Got it. It's ok for a NS to PA a Scout dead in 2 hits. Got it. It's NOT ok for an archer to drill a squishy caster dead in 3 hits. Got it. I spent my time getting those ToA templates when they were the best you could do. And that didn't change the fact that I was still dead without getting a chance to fight back. Purge or no purge. I see no reason to waste my time yet again for the same results.
  • What scout is dying in 2 hits from a NS? Can’t even do that with a 2 hand crit spec SB
  • BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    What scout is dying in 2 hits from a NS? Can’t even do that with a 2 hand crit spec SB

    Mine. I stupidly tried to sneak into Ellan. Choke point... 1000+ damage from just a PA. And like I said, not a great template but not RNG gear.
  • Fengist, I agree with some of your points, however, I do encourage you to put in the effort to get a decent template. Old ToA gear simply doesn't cut it anymore. BGs simply didn't experience the powercreep as significantly as 50 RvR did, and it's not really fair to compare the two. Remember, this is an almost decades old game, and you're using gear from an expansion that came out 15 years ago. That's basically the in-game equivalent of using Civil War-era weaponry to fight in a war today against aircraft and automatic weapons.

    I encourage you to actually take some time and build yourself a decent template, or at the very least, use the free King's gear and give it another shot. Come to Molvik sometime, it's not as dead as you seem to think, and I still have a blast there running around on my Pally and Mini. My point is, you're always going to be severely outmatched in 50 RvR if you're running around without a decent temp. In BGs, too, just to a much lesser extent.
    Former Thid Pro Soloer. Current Molvik Pro Soloer.
    https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/redattack
  • Redattack wrote: »
    Fengist, I agree with some of your points, however, I do encourage you to put in the effort to get a decent template. Old ToA gear simply doesn't cut it anymore. BGs simply didn't experience the powercreep as significantly as 50 RvR did, and it's not really fair to compare the two. Remember, this is an almost decades old game, and you're using gear from an expansion that came out 15 years ago. That's basically the in-game equivalent of using Civil War-era weaponry to fight in a war today against aircraft and automatic weapons.

    I encourage you to actually take some time and build yourself a decent template, or at the very least, use the free King's gear and give it another shot. Come to Molvik sometime, it's not as dead as you seem to think, and I still have a blast there running around on my Pally and Mini. My point is, you're always going to be severely outmatched in 50 RvR if you're running around without a decent temp. In BGs, too, just to a much lesser extent.

    Effort? Well, that's a bit of a catch 22 isn't it? In order to get a decent temp, apparently I need gobs of BP's. Kinda ?hard to get BP's when you're dead instantly, even in free kings gear. I **** you not, I just tried the scout in RvR one more time. Died 3 times in 20 minutes and I wasn't even looking for a fight. My damage to them, 0. I read a post that said Doppels were a good way to make a few coins. Well apparently it's a good way for them to make a few RP by camping those spots. My scout has 25 solo kills... and 818 deaths and ALL of those kills were before I came back with most being in the old BG's.

    And let's be honest. Molv is no better. I've had toons there hit for over 1000 damage and dead in one shot. So it ends up being the same situation. I've seen the temps for Molv. Aside from procs it's still lvl 50 gear. Trying to endure the pain it takes to get the 12,000+ bp just to get those items is... well... masochistic. And running gobs of BP quests in molv? Let me just hang a sign off my ass that says, "Kick Me." I left a group in Molv last nite because all they wanted to do was run around and massage their egos by ganking lvl 35's trying to do BP's. And BP's don't even begin to cover the plat needed to craft items or get crafters to LGM in order to make it yourself or buy items off the market and pay someone to SC/Alch them for you. And I'm not even going to get into the fact that if you try to get a few RP & coin in Molv you end up getting bitched at for adding.

    My point of all this ranting is... There are plenty of pvp mmo's out there where I can create a new toon, dive into pvp and be, if not competitive, at least have some effect when in a group. And as far as your civil war reference, I don't care how much body armor you wear, if I shoot you with an 1860 .44 caliber Colt, at the very least it's gonna sit you on your ass and make you an easy kill. I got the drop on a Celt the other day. I shot him 8 times with my scout. Each hit did 250-350 damage. I died in 2 hits and he was full health. Tell me that you honestly think that should happen in ANY game. And then tell me exactly how all the time and money I spend getting a temp together is going to change that. What? I die in 3 hits then? And THEN... tell me how experiences just like that affect new players who come to DAOC and are even more clueless than I am. I dunno about you, but when my characters feel about as useless as tits on a boar hog, I lose all desire to play.
  • It sounds like you've been trying to play the solo game. As a soloer myself, I can tell you honestly that it's by far one of the most brutal, unforgiving playstyles, especially if you're untemped in NF, because you're going against players that have spent the past few years perfecting their temps specifically to kill other soloers such as yourself. Try going with a BG for a while, it's much more forgiving for someone running around in kings gear, and that's how you can net yourself some RPs and BPs.

    As for Molvik, you're exaggerating quite a bit man. You really don't need a ton of BPs to get the full set of gear. And, pro-tip, you can also just buy a slightly weaker version of the same set from the PvE merchants in your realm's respective area for that level range. Or if you feel like bringing a level 50 toon, you can buy the higher level PvE sets that are about the same or better than the Molvik set and use that instead, just toss it all in your house vault and pick it up on your Molvik toon. Those sets aren't particularly expensive either, and the merchants can be found in Snowdonia Fortress (and it's Hib/Mid equivalents.)

    And again, I totally get it. Starting off as a new/returning player and getting to the point of being competitive in RvR can be pretty daunting, and I completely agree that it's something Broadsword should put much more focus on. But in the meantime, it is possible to be competitive with a reasonable bit of effort. Hell, if you play Alb at all, feel free to shoot me a PM and I'd be happy to hook you up with a bit of plat to get started at least on a decent Molvik temp, or any tradeable BP items you need.
    Former Thid Pro Soloer. Current Molvik Pro Soloer.
    https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/redattack
  • Redattack wrote: »
    It sounds like you've been trying to play the solo game. As a soloer myself, I can tell you honestly that it's by far one of the most brutal, unforgiving playstyles, especially if you're untemped in NF, because you're going against players that have spent the past few years perfecting their temps specifically to kill other soloers such as yourself. Try going with a BG for a while, it's much more forgiving for someone running around in kings gear, and that's how you can net yourself some RPs and BPs.

    As for Molvik, you're exaggerating quite a bit man. You really don't need a ton of BPs to get the full set of gear. And, pro-tip, you can also just buy a slightly weaker version of the same set from the PvE merchants in your realm's respective area for that level range. Or if you feel like bringing a level 50 toon, you can buy the higher level PvE sets that are about the same or better than the Molvik set and use that instead, just toss it all in your house vault and pick it up on your Molvik toon. Those sets aren't particularly expensive either, and the merchants can be found in Snowdonia Fortress (and it's Hib/Mid equivalents.)

    And again, I totally get it. Starting off as a new/returning player and getting to the point of being competitive in RvR can be pretty daunting, and I completely agree that it's something Broadsword should put much more focus on. But in the meantime, it is possible to be competitive with a reasonable bit of effort. Hell, if you play Alb at all, feel free to shoot me a PM and I'd be happy to hook you up with a bit of plat to get started at least on a decent Molvik temp, or any tradeable BP items you need.

    Doesn't matter now. My eyes have been opened and all 3 of my accounts will be closed yet again. In the past week alone in Molvik I've twice seen where Albs stand by and watch their friends from other reams beat Alb noobs down without so much as lifting a finger. I saw 3 albs laughing when an obvious noob was killed by a hib. None of them helped him. I saw a Half-Ogre in Mov gear beaten by a Mid who had been standing on the 'duel hill'. The Ogre's mistake, he was running from AT to APK. A paladin on that hill watched and did nothing. Tonite, one my my toons was a victim of this x-realming BS. A healer in my group stood there and watched my char get killed by a Mid. After the fight, both the mid and the healer walked off in opposite directions. The healer wouldn't even offer up an explanation or bother to deny it. The first one, I wrote that off as a solo fight and the 3 others didn't want to add (which I also think is BS as this is a team based game, not a MOBA). The second one, I was pretty well stunned to see that happen. If there's some code of honor that exists between those that duel it should also extend to those nearby who aren't dueling. Apparently it doesn't. My experience though, that was over the top.

    While I'm sure this type thing happens in other MMO's, I haven't seen it nearly to this extent. And in 30+ years of gaming I've never had anything like that happen to me. If this is the type of elitist game-play that DAOC has become, I'm simply not going to pay for it.

    I sincerely thank you for the advice and the offer to help and had I not seen this and been a victim of it, I probably would have taken your advice. But this series of incidents is intolerable to me. I don't expect to win every fight. In DAOC I don't expect to win any fight. But I definitely don't expect those I'm grouped to hasten that process so that their friends in other realms can benefit. If this is what the rules of conduct describe as the 'spirit of the game' has become, I'm out.
  • Hey Fengist. I completely understand your frustration and the scout is an untterly unrecognisable beast from when I started playing in 2003. In case you ever do come back, in relation to your stealther. I can't recommend enough joining a "stealth guild" and playing with them in a stealth group. It will increasing the 'getting up to date' speed x10, and they can help with template's, advice etc. I love my solo game but I promise you, get into a fun stealth guild these days and you will have tremendous fun sir! Hopefully may see you around some day.
  • Fengist,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Two comments I'd encourage you to consider.

    1) Heretics (you said you have a 50 one), just got a pretty substantial boost. You could play it solo (just spam cast the Uninterruptable) or in a zerg (use your AOEs or assist with the UI). In today's current game, even a low realm rank Heretic is a formidable opponent, but you will want to collect a decent template before you should expect to win anything but a zerg fight, that's just the way it is. (For example even if you have capped melee resists, you are probably short 400 hits, don't have a 10% melee charge, don't have a SOM type ablative up or a fumble proc, and don't have high heal/ablative proc gear, especially with a 5% hot vest proc. You might also not be swapping weapons once your procs do go off). In the solo game that will make it virtually impossible for you to win 1v1 on anything except like a Mauler or something.

    2) BG's, especially Thid and Molvik are generally hopping during various times of day, so I don't know when you explored them, but perhaps it is a time of day issue. At certain times people log out of the BG's to say join the main RVR zerg or defend against one.

    I am always interested to hear from new/returning players as there experiences are often so different. I'm having some trouble classifying exactly what you like/don't like about overall game changes. Please let me know if I have any of these bullet points wrong.
    • You don't like that the PVP progression through realm rank (more toys) takes so long, and is hard for new players to compete, which makes battlegrounds more attractive
    • You sort of prefer PVE and feel that PVE has been dumbed down to allow toons to more quickly get to end-game, level 50
    • On this same point you don't like that gear and equipment is more readily available in battlegrounds and at low levels, because that does not encourage people to stick around at those levels
    • You did like that BG's were the best place to level for gear/fast xp, because it brought action to the BG's, but mostly because the action it brought kept people PVPing in the BG's at the cap level, and now you feel the xp/gear ratio is too fast and people are quickly gone
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Koe wrote: »
    1) Heretics (you said you have a 50 one)
    An avalonain, which means he's dead before I even log him in. I also have a 50 Friar, Pally, Cleric, Fire Wizzy, Necro, Scout, Reaver, Chanter, Skald and BD. And NONE of them are in what you would call a temp and are also dead before I log them in.
    Koe wrote: »
    • You don't like that the PVP progression through realm rank (more toys) takes so long, and is hard for new players to compete, which makes battlegrounds more attractive
    Very Correct
    Koe wrote: »
    • You sort of prefer PVE and feel that PVE has been dumbed down to allow toons to more quickly get to end-game, level 50
    Incorrect. I came back specifically for the PVP. PVE is merely a means to an end. The PVE however, has been dumbed down in order to accelerate everyone to 50 and thereby giving no one a good reason to stay in the lower bg's for any longer than it takes to get out of them, which is about 30 minutes. If PVE is done right, it too can be fun. But that's not why I play games like DAOC.
    Koe wrote: »
    • On this same point you don't like that gear and equipment is more readily available in battlegrounds and at low levels, because that does not encourage people to stick around at those levels
    Partially correct. It's not that the gear itself is made available, It's how fast it's acquired which is directly proportional to how long people stay in the BG's. If Thid were still active, I'd love to see that BG gear there. It would mean that even noobs have a better chance of winning PVP fights than they did in the old RNG gear which means they'd be more likely to hang around in the BG's longer. At one point I had 6 crafters just to make gear for Thid. I deleted them all for the same reason I don't think I'd like kicking puppies down the street.
    Koe wrote: »
    [*] You did like that BG's were the best place to level for gear/fast xp, because it brought action to the BG's, but mostly because the action it brought kept people PVPing in the BG's at the cap level, and now you feel the xp/gear ratio is too fast and people are quickly gone
    [/list]
    Correct

    I remember spending hours defending Thid keep... and consequently, hours trying to take it back again when we lost it. I remember battles on the bridges to Thid keep. I remember a Female Avalonian Crush/Shield merc I painted purple just to dare any sneak to PA me. I remember one of my close friends falling out of his chair laughing when we went out duo and I dumped a dozen air pets on a troll (the first time he saw a Theurgist.) I remember having an absolute blast in Thid and I still have lots of fond memories of it. Anyone who came to Thid, even in crap RNG gear could get kills. I know, I've done this. And if you did die, it didn't take you an hour to find another fight. The only thing I remember from RVR and from this new Molv is utter disgust.

    I do NOT want to spend weeks or months trying to buy or craft a template or farm for one just to be competitive. I shouldn't have to. I should be able to get into PVP and at least have a prayer of killing anyone. As it stands, without a temp, I have ZERO hope without someone getting pissed off that I'm leeching. Furthermore, I shouldn't have to stand on some corner in Camelot begging some alliance for a handout so I don't die incessantly. I can log into Rust right now with nothing but my swinging johnson and a rock and STILL have a chance of 1v1 killing someone who has a gun. Not a great chance but if I dodge well and aim well, I can do it. I know, I've done this too. I spend 2 minutes beating on a tree in Rust and I have a spear which drastically increases my odds of killing that guy with the gun. In DAOC RVR, I've already thrown my hands up in disgust. When I put 4 or 5 arrows into a caster in RVR and see ZERO damage, I don't give a **** what gear you say I need, it's bullshit.

    And THAT is why I have always preferred BG's to RVR. I can get into PVP quickly (especially when I could /20) and, I don't need to farm plat, gear, glass, RA's, ML's, CL's or any of that other horse **** just to have a decent PVP fight. People do not come to play games like DAOC just to have their ass perpetually kicked and that's exactly where I am now. I do NOT have the time to sit and Google for days on end trying to figure out where to find this piece of gear or to beg a bunch of people to come help me kill this or that mob just to complete my temp or spend days for that matter creating a temp. Once upon a time I spent countless hours PL'ing toons with a necro to get them into Thid. I willingly spent this time because I knew that once in Thid, I could still get kills in crap gear and have fun doing it. I can't say the same for RVR.
    Koe wrote: »
    but you will want to collect a decent template before you should expect to win anything but a zerg fight, that's just the way it is. (For example even if you have capped melee resists, you are probably short 400 hits, don't have a 10% melee charge, don't have a SOM type ablative up or a fumble proc, and don't have high heal/ablative proc gear, especially with a 5% hot vest proc. You might also not be swapping weapons once your procs do go off). In the solo game that will make it virtually impossible for you to win 1v1 on anything except like a Mauler or something.
    Do you realize what you're said there? Do you have any idea what that sounds like to someone who is just coming back to this game or playing it for the first time? Do you have any idea how much time and effort a casual player would have to invest into figuring out this game just to be competitive? Do you have ANY idea how many times that casual player would end up dying in RVR to the point they got disgusted and left because they DIDN'T know these things?

    Sorry, I'm going back to my rocks in Rust. DAOC has gone off the deep end and I'm not going to pay BS to turn me into a masochist. I want to PLAY a game in what free time I do have, not spend weeks trying to figure out how it works so that I don't DIE in two freaking hits.

    BS has my e-mail. If they ever un-screw the BG's and make them fun again... let me know.
    Post edited by Fengist on
  • With the current population now I think these BGS are way too big. Make them much smaller and there should be more action in all the BGs.
    Daniellson - Healer
  • This is a totally different game from what is was 15 years ago. Best to start a new char and take your time..you do not have to rocket to 50. But the option is there. I agree that most bgs are ghost towns. They are no longer battlegrounds thx to the bp quests. People think they are leveling grounds. The mentality of 50 rvr is zerg. Soloing requires patience and a good temp.. most folks didnt get there in day. It takes time to build up your crafters, skills and the myriad of other things. Getting to 50 is the easy part. Find a decent guild to help you. Bg play is sparse but does exist.
  • Fengist wrote: »
    For whatever my opinion is worth, here goes.

    I haven't played DAOC in years. When I re-opened two of my accounts I found almost a dozen lvl 24 toons from all 3 races that I had created. Once upon a time, I loved going to Thid. I utterly hated RvR. I was pretty disappointed to find most all of the BG's, including Molv, are something akin to a desolate wasteland. This will likely be a lengthy post but hopefully, the dev's or someone can make sense of my returning players experience and use it to fix whatever's broken. Here goes.

    Yes, I hated RvR and I'm pretty sure I still do. Reasons: I don't like playing games where I spend weeks or months preparing for PvP and then, stand there and watch while my toon is unable to move, react or fight back and gets slaughtered repeatedly. Mez and roots, even in Thid were always a huge issue for me. In RvR, it was always worse because by that point, I'd invested a large amount of time gearing up just to have that happen all over again. I play PvP for the fights, for the adrenaline. Having your character turn completely catatonic for the entire fights' duration while their skull is caved in is not my idea of PvP. I even went so far as to template both a scout and a tic. I spent huge amounts of time farming and gearing them for RvR. In the end, I found both about as useless as tits on a boar hog. Aside from the dying without even being able to put up a resistance, the other issue I had was the vast difference in 'toys' that long time PvP'ers have over newer players.

    I never got my ML's because of the fact that it took groups to do that (yes, I know about the glass quests now). I never spent the weeks it took to get champ levels because I always perceived that most of the benefits of maxing champ are relatively lame and mostly useless. And, I never got enough RR on any toon to even get Long Wind 5 because I always got disgusted when I went out to try to get RP. I ended up being THEIR method for getting RP.

    On my return, I decided to try RvR one more time. And I found the net results to be the same if not worse. Now, the objectives have changed. The old 100 player zergs where I once had a HOPE of surviving for more than 5 minutes and gaining a few RP... are long gone. Now, it's the 8v8 groups running around at speeds where I can't even target them. Keeps and towers are no longer the focus of RvR. So rushing my scout to whatever keep or tower was on fire with the hope of shooting someone isn't there any more. It seems most don't care about keeps or towers and when they do, someone in region chat asks them why they're even bothering with keeps. What I found was a confusing list of apparently new objectives on Ellan that seemed to serve no real purpose other than a magnet for stealthers and those 8-player groups. In the few attempts I made with the scout and tic to head out to rvr, I ended up logging out both, dead and in utter disgust.

    Now, before you say it, yes, all of those things happen in Thid. Here's the difference. In Thid, I'm not spending the next 20 minutes running through enemy territory trying to get back to where I was and hopefully, find the bastids that killed me and even the score. Yes, I know you can teleport all over the place now. RVR is still a vast area and TP'ing rarely gets you close to the fight. Even if I see a tower on fire, it's gonna take me 10 minutes to teleport as close as I can get and then ride a horse to that location and hope I don't meet some Skald+7 who's screening the area. In the BG's, I can be back to the spot where I died in less than 5 minutes and that's walking while stealthed. In the BG's, I can usually be back to the exact spot where I died before Rez wears off. That's a lot less time to dwell on how pissed I am that I didn't even get a chance to fight back. Instead, I can spend that 5 minutes dwelling on how I'm gonna gank them.

    In the BG's I don't have to spend massive amounts of time farming gear, ML's or anything else. I can go in RR1, ML0, CL0, artifacts 0, mythical nothing, crap RNG gear and still get a kill by using skill and timing (and a bit of luck.) I used to run around Thid in some really sucky Aurulite gear and still enjoyed the game and still get kills. Did I get PA'd a buch? Oh yea. Was I afforded the opportunity to get even? Oh yea, and I did (wait for them to PA someone else and dump a load of air pets on them). In RvR, the person who killed you is just as anonymous as the person across town. In Thid, I got to recognize players and placed many on my **** list. In RvR, I have no idea who they are or if I'll ever see them again and the vast majority of the time, I'm dead so fast that I don't even know what race or class they were. I'm just dead. Went to a keep yesterday with my scout (I was amazed that Albs were taking a keep!). Dead. 1100+ damage in ONE hit. And that's with an old template I still considered decent. Worst part, I have no idea what killed me. None. I saw no one around me, I saw no spell effect, nothing. I just fell over dead and some Mid got credit.

    SO... I was disappointed to find that, for the most part, the BG's were empty. Now I've read some explanations as to why this likely happened. One reason was lvl 50 ammo in siege doing massive damage to low level toons. Yep, I remember that and it was bad, really bad. I've read discussions where it was all the 'cowards' and templated toons that caused everyone to leave. I don't think so. I know lots did template. It was even more hilarious to me when I killed them. And that was fine by me. Regardless of how great or perfect in Thid your template was, you were killable. In RvR, I've seen players take massive amounts of damage and still get away (something I never figured out how to do.) While I never 'templated' for Thid, I did eventually get into crafting gear for my characters and tried to have my idea of decent gear. And that allowed even more fun. I was then able to take out some of those who did template even easier. Picture a female highlander in purple chain carrying a shield & mace. Healer? Many a stealther thought so. I used to stand her out in the open between APK and CK as if she were afk. After surviving the PA or backstab they were very surprised when she threw dirt in their faces and started smashing them with styles. I even made an Avalonian healer/merc in order to really enforce the embarrassment. Now that was some fun times. Apparently that's all gone now. And what if I tried to duplicate that fun in RvR? I guarantee you that if you that if some noob to RvR made a female highlander in chain and stood her on a bridge to Ellan as if she were afk... well... I'm sure you can imagine how that would go down.

    I can't point to any one thing I see that was a reason everyone left. What I can point to are things that I see that keep them from being as popular as they once were.

    1. BG bounty quests. I went in to Thid with a lvl 20 Inf in horrid gear. Within an hour I was lvl 24. If I hadn't used /xp off, I would have levelled out of Thid before I got all the gear I wanted. Once upon a time I was excited when we took CK because that meant a NICE xp bonus from a quest. I don't need to do that any more.
    2. BG bounty gear - Once upon a time I made a few coins crafting good weapons for Thid with procs. Before I even went into Thid I had one weapon with a proc and a flame effect from my trainer (something I once used as an excuse to get to 50, my own glowy's.) I got the second proc weapon from bounty quests a few minutes later. Procs in Thid used to be the holy grail. If you had someone smack you and a proc went off, you knew you were in trouble. Giving those out like candy cheapens the whole process of 'earning' them either by learning crafting skills or farming the gold to buy one.
    3. BG bounty gear - And I was wondering why in 3 days I hadn't sold a thing on my consignment merchant. Now I know why. I remember people standing around the housing entrance shopping for gear and I would at least make enough to pay for my deed. Now, that's just as desolate as the BG's. Why buy anything when you can get plenty by farming a quest for an hour in every single BG? I even too another Inf I have to Leir and sure enough, there were bounty quests there to do which was almost as good as the crafted gear he was wearing (which I paid a small fortune for). The only consolation I had was, there were a couple of hibs out farming their own BG gear which made easy targets.
    4. BG bounty gear - I recall spending hours in Killaloe farming for Shadow in the Trees to get the nice cloak drop. Guess I don't need to waste my time in that BG either any more. Having some rare items like that pelt were a source of pride. It made me feel just a little less likely to die in one hit. Now, it's a joke to waste time farming something when it's useless compared to what you can get for next to nothing.
    5. BG bounty gear - Once upon a time I farmed Aurulite like mad for my Thid toons. Well, that gear is been pretty much outclassed by bounty gear. While there are a few pieces where, depending on the class, Aurulite gear is a slight bit better, it's not enough to justify the hours of farming it took. The only thing I've farmed since coming back has been glass. I now have around 60k glass and have to ask myself why? I don't need ML's on my 50's to PvE. RvR pisses me off with the insta deaths so I don't need ML's for that. The BG's are empty and definitely don't need glass for that. And now that acquiring money is as easy to do as wiping your ass, I don't even need to sell it.

    Years ago, before any of the expansions, I played DAOC with a good friend of mine. He played one character, an armsman. In every game we played, he would focus intently on getting that one toon to max level as fast as he could. I could never keep up with him because I enjoyed playing a variety of classes. I'd get tired of one, log in another and keep playing. I recall spending hours on Salisbury Plains doing quests, I recall being happy when we got Darkness Falls. I could go farm gear. I recall the piles of tombstones lying around the entrances to dungeons and how people would cluster around them trying to find groups. I recall people running toward the dungeon entrance with a trail of red mobs behind them. I recall standing on the pad in Sauvage with a BG necklace around my neck (I still have one). I recall forgetting to wear those necklaces and being half pissed. I recall when tic's came out and I was one of the first to have one in Thid and how 3 Norse camped me at APK and started laughing when my AOE focus snare's first tick did almost no damage to them. And how I returned that laugh when they kept standing there and all 3 fell over dead. I play games like DAOC for what I call 'moments' just like those above. Most are funny things that happened that stick in my head for years. I have no 'moments' that I recall from RvR. I have dozens from Thid.

    The difference about the way my friend and I played, he wanted to get to the destination. I however, always thought the journey was the fun part. He quit playing long before I did. His reasoning, too many ranged classes. He told me that his fun in RvR involved him standing around with his polearm waving in the air protecting casters. I kept playing because I was still enjoying the journey. I began collecting trophy's for my house. I began collecting TOA artifacts. I still have a HUGE collection of pages and books. I enjoyed the PvE as much as the BG's and LOTS more than the RvR.

    As I see it: While TOA was the nightmare that cut DAOC's throat, the attempt to correct that mistake has been taken to the extreme. Today, it seems the entire game is focused on getting characters to RvR as fast as possible. In the process of doing so, the game has lost a lot of what was once fun. It has lost it's character. The BG's are vacant, the economy is busted and many of the reasons I hung around, like farming Aurulite for BG gear, well, there's just no point in it. TBH, I'm not sure what to do now. I could have spent the time it took me to write this playing DAOC. But since I'm not sure where to go or what to do to any more to find those 'moments', I spent that time writing this.

    While I will likely hang around till Endless Conquest comes out and see what changes that brings (though it will be with just 1 account, not the 3 I once had up and running), I fear many new and returning players coming to the game will experience the same thing I am, a BG full of ghosts, an RvR where it seems hopeless to be even competitive and a vast world to explore with a system that does it's utmost to warp you past all of it. I fear their 'moments' will be few and far between.

    You're doing it wrong
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