How about something like this:
Remember the good fights at Draco and the great loot we rolled on? What if there were a mob, one of those big electrical-type things in the Labby, that had to be killed which would drop an item with some charges on it that gave the owner a the ability to use a Static Tempest? Some type of RVR activity that was off limits to farming teams that dropped an item very important to relic taking which has a limit to the time it can be used, say a week.
You want Static? You win it!
Personally I think ST is going to be limited to Pally/Thane/Champion.
I don't get the Tic OP posts/threads. They aren't going to sit there and nuke you down, it's essentially a snare.
Midgard could roll more RM's and Thanes and easily outpace Tics. They're simply an annoyance.
@Amp_Phetamine They already are running tons of RMs and Thanes, they just don't want to admit it and Albs aren't here constantly complaining about them. If Tics get adjusted Thanes and possibly RMs need to be as well.
I posted the below in another Tic QQ thread but I think its useful, especially looking at the boost both Tics AND Thanes received.
Level 50 Heretics and Level 50 Runemasters
Date Tic RPS Tic Kills Tic Count RM RPS RM Kills RM Count
Nov 18, 2018 13,899,634 18,244 121 17,842,994 28,298 145
Nov 11, 2018 6,599,212 11,897 82 17,555,356 29,267 142
Nov 4, 2018 4,911,981 6,522 75 13,319,454 16,614 114
A more interesting comparison however is to Thanes. Post patch Thane and Heretic performance is actually mirroring each other.
Level 50 Heretics and Level 50 Thanes
Date Tic RPS Tic Kills Tic Count Thane RPS Thane Kills Thane Count
Nov 18, 2018 13,899,634 18,244 121 14,241,421 20,641 125
Nov 11, 2018 6,599,212 11,897 82 8,194,128 14,677 102
Nov 4, 2018 4,911,981 6,522 75 5,866,398 8,615 102
So while yes Heretics have become more popular and Albion has access to more STs than before, Midgard should still have plenty more STs than Albion and both the Mid ST classes are heavily benefiting from the patch, despite all the QQing here.
@Amp_Phetamine They already are running tons of RMs and Thanes, they just don't want to admit it and Albs aren't here constantly complaining about them. If Tics get adjusted Thanes and possibly RMs need to be as well.
I posted the below in another Tic QQ thread but I think its useful, especially looking at the boost both Tics AND Thanes received.
Level 50 Heretics and Level 50 Runemasters
Date Tic RPS Tic Kills Tic Count RM RPS RM Kills RM Count
Nov 18, 2018 13,899,634 18,244 121 17,842,994 28,298 145
Nov 11, 2018 6,599,212 11,897 82 17,555,356 29,267 142
Nov 4, 2018 4,911,981 6,522 75 13,319,454 16,614 114
A more interesting comparison however is to Thanes. Post patch Thane and Heretic performance is actually mirroring each other.
Level 50 Heretics and Level 50 Thanes
Date Tic RPS Tic Kills Tic Count Thane RPS Thane Kills Thane Count
Nov 18, 2018 13,899,634 18,244 121 14,241,421 20,641 125
Nov 11, 2018 6,599,212 11,897 82 8,194,128 14,677 102
Nov 4, 2018 4,911,981 6,522 75 5,866,398 8,615 102
So while yes Heretics have become more popular and Albion has access to more STs than before, Midgard should still have plenty more STs than Albion and both the Mid ST classes are heavily benefiting from the patch, despite all the QQing here.
Numbers don't lie. Thank you for posting actual data, all of the "Tic OP threads" were getting old with absolutely nothing to back up the claims that were being made.
Numbers don't lie, but we need to see larger data pool to suggest anything, basing on one day is likely not enough. Also, player count on realm should matter too. Just have to keep checking excidio and see how it goes when data pool be little bigger to be accurate, after the hype died down. My opinion is still that neither of RM/Tic should have got ST, but whatever, will see how things go in the future.
Numbers don't lie, but we need to see larger data pool to suggest anything, basing on one day is likely not enough. Also, player count on realm should matter too. Just have to keep checking excidio and see how it goes when data pool be little bigger to be accurate, after the hype died down. My opinion is still that neither of RM/Tic should have got ST, but whatever, will see how things go in the future.
Don't disagree, I think having two classes with ST just leads to too much of an ST fest. Just need to make sure it's equally distributed in terms of player pop, either by putting it on classes that post similar pops or adjusting ST classes that are underplayed.
Arms/Pally - they pay 2x spec points for 2h. Give a few tweaks to 2H and Polearm growth rates and style effects.
Cleric - Smite line is the worst out of Nature/Cave/Smite, by far. Even Stormcalling is superior to Smite, and it's a 2.0 line.
Sorcs - Body and Matter line could use some buffs. Minor ones in Body.
Cab - Body and Spirit line could use 1 or 2 more spells in spec. Spirit needs more baseline spells to put it on par with SM/Chanter.
Wizard - Fire needs some buffs unrelated to single target damage. Utility or niche AOE. Earth utility could be improved a small amount if we're using non-Alb casters as a measuring stick. Ice is OK, but messy.
Necro - Absorb buffs aren't working; could use some damage type integration to Alb nuke trains
Theurgist - Remove pet cap. Never needed to go in. Add some spells to Air and Ice not related to pet spam, and make higher level ice pet damage scale slightly. I've always suggested some AOE storms, which were sort of made into reality on the BD with their totems later on.
Minstrel - Maybe make some of the songs/abilities a little more hybrid friendly.
Reaver - Levi and Cobra were nerfed too hard.
Scout - Scouts should have slightly higher range and slower bows as they did before, preferably by reverting the others down back to their old levels.
@Amp_Phetamine They already are running tons of RMs and Thanes, they just don't want to admit it and Albs aren't here constantly complaining about them. If Tics get adjusted Thanes and possibly RMs need to be as well.
I posted the below in another Tic QQ thread but I think its useful, especially looking at the boost both Tics AND Thanes received.
Level 50 Heretics and Level 50 Runemasters
Date Tic RPS Tic Kills Tic Count RM RPS RM Kills RM Count
Nov 18, 2018 13,899,634 18,244 121 17,842,994 28,298 145
Nov 11, 2018 6,599,212 11,897 82 17,555,356 29,267 142
Nov 4, 2018 4,911,981 6,522 75 13,319,454 16,614 114
A more interesting comparison however is to Thanes. Post patch Thane and Heretic performance is actually mirroring each other.
Level 50 Heretics and Level 50 Thanes
Date Tic RPS Tic Kills Tic Count Thane RPS Thane Kills Thane Count
Nov 18, 2018 13,899,634 18,244 121 14,241,421 20,641 125
Nov 11, 2018 6,599,212 11,897 82 8,194,128 14,677 102
Nov 4, 2018 4,911,981 6,522 75 5,866,398 8,615 102
So while yes Heretics have become more popular and Albion has access to more STs than before, Midgard should still have plenty more STs than Albion and both the Mid ST classes are heavily benefiting from the patch, despite all the QQing here.
where did runemasters benefit apart from getting ST ?
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Numbers don't lie, but we need to see larger data pool to suggest anything, basing on one day is likely not enough. Also, player count on realm should matter too. Just have to keep checking excidio and see how it goes when data pool be little bigger to be accurate, after the hype died down. My opinion is still that neither of RM/Tic should have got ST, but whatever, will see how things go in the future.
one hib class should have lost st ....
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
ah, i'm not the only person it seems that feels that arguing with ylazul and amphetamin is a waste of time then ?
I'm fine with Heretics being adjusted down if the rest of Alb is brought up to par at the same time. All bad/neglected lines for that matter, like Runemaster Darkness and Shaman Mending.
heretics need a nerf, this patch was **** to release.
Just for humor, I'd love to hear what exactly Alb needs....
Nope, Heretics don't need a nerf until either the other realms are nerfed or Alb gets a few minor buffs.
Arms/Pally - they pay 2x spec points for 2h. Give a few tweaks to 2H and Polearm growth rates and style effects.
Cleric - Smite line is the worst out of Nature/Cave/Smite, by far. Even Stormcalling is superior to Smite, and it's a 2.0 line.
Sorcs - Body and Matter line could use some buffs. Minor ones in Body.
Cab - Body and Spirit line could use 1 or 2 more spells in spec. Spirit needs more baseline spells to put it on par with SM/Chanter.
Wizard - Fire needs some buffs unrelated to single target damage. Utility or niche AOE. Earth utility could be improved a small amount if we're using non-Alb casters as a measuring stick. Ice is OK, but messy.
Necro - Absorb buffs aren't working; could use some damage type integration to Alb nuke trains
Theurgist - Remove pet cap. Never needed to go in. Add some spells to Air and Ice not related to pet spam, and make higher level ice pet damage scale slightly. I've always suggested some AOE storms, which were sort of made into reality on the BD with their totems later on.
Minstrel - Maybe make some of the songs/abilities a little more hybrid friendly.
Reaver - Levi and Cobra were nerfed too hard.
Scout - Scouts should have slightly higher range and slower bows as they did before, preferably by reverting the others down back to their old levels.
That's more or less it. We'd still have to re-adjust Warlocks, Skalds, BDs, Thanes and Hunters slightly. Down and up. Likewise Hib casters should get either a stun or a root, not both.
everything in your realm needs buffing, everything in the other realm needs nerfing. QQ that's your reasoning. so unbiased, if only BS would listens to you. you are a visionary and probably the saviour of Daoc if only BS would listen to you.
/sarcasm off.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
ah, i'm not the only person it seems that feels that arguing with ylazul and amphetamin is a waste of time then ?
I'm fine with Heretics being adjusted down if the rest of Alb is brought up to par at the same time. All bad/neglected lines for that matter, like Runemaster Darkness and Shaman Mending.
heretics need a nerf, this patch was **** to release.
Just for humor, I'd love to hear what exactly Alb needs....
Nope, Heretics don't need a nerf until either the other realms are nerfed or Alb gets a few minor buffs.
Arms/Pally - they pay 2x spec points for 2h. Give a few tweaks to 2H and Polearm growth rates and style effects.
Cleric - Smite line is the worst out of Nature/Cave/Smite, by far. Even Stormcalling is superior to Smite, and it's a 2.0 line.
Sorcs - Body and Matter line could use some buffs. Minor ones in Body.
Cab - Body and Spirit line could use 1 or 2 more spells in spec. Spirit needs more baseline spells to put it on par with SM/Chanter.
Wizard - Fire needs some buffs unrelated to single target damage. Utility or niche AOE. Earth utility could be improved a small amount if we're using non-Alb casters as a measuring stick. Ice is OK, but messy.
Necro - Absorb buffs aren't working; could use some damage type integration to Alb nuke trains
Theurgist - Remove pet cap. Never needed to go in. Add some spells to Air and Ice not related to pet spam, and make higher level ice pet damage scale slightly. I've always suggested some AOE storms, which were sort of made into reality on the BD with their totems later on.
Minstrel - Maybe make some of the songs/abilities a little more hybrid friendly.
Reaver - Levi and Cobra were nerfed too hard.
Scout - Scouts should have slightly higher range and slower bows as they did before, preferably by reverting the others down back to their old levels.
That's more or less it. We'd still have to re-adjust Warlocks, Skalds, BDs, Thanes and Hunters slightly. Down and up. Likewise Hib casters should get either a stun or a root, not both.
everything in your realm needs buffing, everything in the other realm needs nerfing. QQ that's your reasoning. so unbiased, if only BS would listens to you. you are a visionary and probably the saviour of Daoc if only BS would listen to you.
/sarcasm off.
But, Muy, you do the exact same thing with Mid toons, except, and this is the major difference, Ylazul actually makes reasonable posts regarding issues with Alb classes, and states issues with Mid/Hib classes as well (as he plays all 3 realms).
There is certainly an issue overall with all 3 heavy tanks in terms of what they were capable of 4 years ago compared to today.
All 3 heavy tanks are sub-par outside of group/zerg gameplay (any class can be more effective in group/zerg gameplay) with Armsmen being the worse utility wise compared to Warrior's and Hero's.
My thread was simply stating that the Armsmen class could use a polishing, not a buff to make them OP, just polished up a bit to make them more effective in todays game.
@Amp_Phetamine Reasonable or not, your criticisms are discussion driven, fairly well executed, and well-rounded.
Also, I would risk it, you have self awareness, willingly participating in discussions, even considering changing your view if you find other feedback useful.
Ylazul just hijacks every possible topic to state his agenda which is fairly simple once you seen a few of his comments.
- Mids always cries for buffs
- Albs underpowered
- Mids overpowered
- Pick some random data from the game to justify his very often used "objectivity"
- State his superiority in game balancing over both other players, and the majority of game designers
- Hes knowledge on some class/spec is limited just like everyones, including myself.
This is perfectly fine tbh, someone has to represent that point of view too, I only have issues on deliberately picking each classes weaknesses in his loved realm, and each classes strength in his hated realm (sorry, his hate towards mids in general is very clear).
I have no issue when there is a discussion to be made, or if someone loves his realm. The sad truth is however, every realm, including Hibernia - who could just chill and laugh on alb vs mids kitten arguments - have strong classes, and good abilities. All realms have popular, fun, and good classes. All realm have classes who underperform in certain situations, and have worse spec-lines then their most popular ones. This is not a game where every class perform equally in all possible situation - solo/fg/zerg... And to be fair, DAoC have okay-ish balance. If this game had 0 realm/class balance, it would be dead long ago, with 1 realm ruling everything, but so far, every realm has a chance, and can compete, only 1.125 data is very limited since its fairly new.
This does not mean the balance is perfect, there are classes that under or over perform for sure, but its far less easy to state certain realms clear superiority then people like to paint on all side of the table. Also, let's hope that all realm will have equal chance to fight in the future with similar population, that would be the best. Of course zerg leaders in general also have huge impact on a realms population in certain time periods which should be taken in account, but our main goal I think is still to discuss / tell our opinion however false it might be to Broadsword mainly. Arguing with each other I think is pretty useless, since none of us will make the changes live. A civilised disagreement I think its fine enough.
@Ylazul To be clear, I don't think that anything comes from you should be dismissed, but I also think you can also be mistaken / have bias on some matters like everyone else, that's all. If you tone down the you know better then everyone else, I think you could translate your opinions much better, regardless if people will agree or not. Also, regarding those class balance issues you find, make them a little bit more detailed one by one.
@Amp_Phetamine Reasonable or not, your criticisms are discussion driven, fairly well executed, and well-rounded.
Also, I would risk it, you have self awareness, willingly participating in discussions, even considering changing your view if you find other feedback useful.
Ylazul just hijacks every possible topic to state his agenda which is fairly simple once you seen a few of his comments.
- Mids always cries for buffs
- Albs underpowered
- Mids overpowered
- Pick some random data from the game to justify his very often used "objectivity"
- State his superiority in game balancing over both other players, and the majority of game designers
- Hes knowledge on some class/spec is limited just like everyones, including myself.
This is perfectly fine tbh, someone has to represent that point of view too, I only have issues on deliberately picking each classes weaknesses in his loved realm, and each classes strength in his hated realm (sorry, his hate towards mids in general is very clear).
I have no issue when there is a discussion to be made, or if someone loves his realm. The sad truth is however, every realm, including Hibernia - who could just chill and laugh on alb vs mids kitten arguments - have strong classes, and good abilities. All realms have popular, fun, and good classes. All realm have classes who underperform in certain situations, and have worse spec-lines then their most popular ones. This is not a game where every class perform equally in all possible situation - solo/fg/zerg... And to be fair, DAoC have okay-ish balance. If this game had 0 realm/class balance, it would be dead long ago, with 1 realm ruling everything, but so far, every realm has a chance, and can compete, only 1.125 data is very limited since its fairly new.
This does not mean the balance is perfect, there are classes that under or over perform for sure, but its far less easy to state certain realms clear superiority then people like to paint on all side of the table. Also, let's hope that all realm will have equal chance to fight in the future with similar population, that would be the best. Of course zerg leaders in general also have huge impact on a realms population in certain time periods which should be taken in account, but our main goal I think is still to discuss / tell our opinion however false it might be to Broadsword mainly. Arguing with each other I think is pretty useless, since none of us will make the changes live. A civilised disagreement I think its fine enough.
I can appreciate and respect your view point and agree with much of what you stated. Appreciate the compliments as well.
In all actuality, you're correct. We can build/design an entire matrix in ways that each realm is superior to the other. That's the beauty of DAoC. There isn't 1 single cookie-cutter build/group design that will win 99% of the time. There are always alternative builds/pairings that may trump an enemies layout.
I also agree that certain classes shouldn't be balanced to dominate in solo/small-man/group/zerg. The motivation for this thread comes from my (and other heavy tanks) inability to solo even remotely as effectively as we could 3-4 years ago.
If my template/stats/gear creep/RR are all increasing, than why would I be under-performing. If anything I should be performing even better than I did 3-4 years ago.
So instead of entering into the micro-data and nit-picking every single thing that has changed, I think a reasonable suggestion would be to re-evaluate the Heavy Tanks and see where we stand in all aspects of the game. As I've stated we shine very well in group/zerg game play because the level of skill required (no disrespect to anyone) is significantly less than in solo/small-man.
You can tell by the accumulated stats that tanks in general aren't a favored class in rvr (although i'm sure Herorius could probably skew the Hero stats by himself lol).
So what I'm suggesting, at least for Armsman, is maybe upping our growth rates again (polearm/2h), or perhaps introducing a taunt that works in RvR, removing the -10% penalty on the rr5 and/or making the rr5 360 degree's but introducing a movement penalty instead or penalty to dps. Possibly buffing up the armsmans AF/abs a few percentage points. Possibly removing the 25spc requirement for snapshot and introducing it as a class specific ability.
Nothing outrageous, nothing that when implemented will suddenly make the Armsman FoTM and OP. Just something positive to even out the utility differentials that have been developed over the last few years of patches.
I know John stated previously that Heavy Tanks weren't being touched during the major class revamp patch, and at the time I agree'd that there really wasn't anything they needed, but at least today they can use a minor review and some polishing up.
@Amp_Phetamine
I already wrote to your topic so I don't wan't go into details here, but yes, at least one thing is clear, that Tanks perform worse today on solo field then they used to. Other classes too, but tanks go into that category too. It's just my opinion, but I think the popularity of stealthers / archers on solo meta is the main differentiating factor on Tanks underperforming in general. Archers became very good in kiting game, which was always one of Tanks weaknesses, Light tanks also perform well (although they just got a very minor nerf), and what's common is in those classes are: Dual Wield, Kite. DW currently amazing vs shields, and tanks are very one of the worst class to get kited on. Of course this on tanks in general, but they perform much better against other classes then against what I've mentioned.
Regarding Armsman issues, I don't have enough data, and already made a feedback. Taking a look if the plate armor doesn't compensate the difficulty of Arms speccing at least doesn't hurt, I only have knowledge on Hero/Warrior gameplay on tanks. Truth be told, Arms isn't my worse fear when I go out solo, but neither other tanks.
The ideas on the armsman seem pretty balanced and fair.
As regards any comments you make regarding realm balance inevitably you are going to get comments from people that they know better than you.
But here’s the thing just because someone has an in depth knowledge of game mechanics dosent mean they are right about realm balance.
And here’s my reasoning for that someone with an in depth knowledge of the game would probably likely be a great soloer and group player and would use the strengths of the toon he plays to its limits.
So he would base his class balance ideas on the maximum use of that toons abilitys.
The trouble is 90 percent of people do not play the game that way and never fully utilise the full abilities of a class.
Now whether that’s laziness not investing enough time in playing the game or just wanting casual play or age related slowness that’s how it is.
So I think sometimes a lot of people don’t see where the patch ideas are coming from and maybe developers and people making class changes need to take account of that.
After all those 90 percenters are part of the food chain that the top 10 percent thrive on.
My point is and allways has been you need some overpowered classes on each realm to compensate for people’s playing ability.
To level the playing field if you like and allow either new players coming back or just slowing down to have fun.
Yes RM's doesn't need st, never asked for it. Tell you what, Albion used to be a realm I loved to play and I loved my toons/classes there. All went down the hell after last patch. Unfortunately I deleted a rr8 tic, and a rr5 one I had there, soon I might delete all my Albion toons, and prolly even close my acct, there's no point running around and get snared by over 40 tics or so. Till then hopefully BS wake up and at least see what is going on and fix st/snare so game won't die just yet.
Yes RM's doesn't need st, never asked for it. Tell you what, Albion used to be a realm I loved to play and I loved my toons/classes there. All went down the hell after last patch. Unfortunately I deleted a rr8 tic, and a rr5 one I had there, soon I might delete all my Albion toons, and prolly even close my acct, there's no point running around and get snared by over 40 tics or so. Till then hopefully BS wake up and at least see what is going on and fix st/snare so game won't die just yet.
I find this a gross over-exaggeration. You understand that heretics have been able to aoe-snare for years, right? Ice/Earth wizards also have aoe-DD/snare...
comparing 1 class's current weekly stats to anothers, in order to validate imbalance would only be presented by someone who has 0 idea how common sense, or math works lol
"this class got more rps this week then this one, so its clearly to op and unfair", [edited]
You can lock down Heretics by spamming amnesia. This is one of the few reasons why I would prefer castable amnesia on my Bard than instant amnesia, even though Mentalists have the castable version. The Mid BG does not appear to have a shortage of Healers, at least not when I have played with them.
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Yes there are healers. So. You want them to pac, heal and now spam amnesia, which outs them in combat and can't regen power. Awesome stuff..
Have you tried to run as of late and do that? How is it working for you?
I can't speak for other Pac Healers, but I have utilized amnesia on multiple occasions (BG play or otherwise). The Healer is not an easy class to play; but that is not a reason to ignore its utility.
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
comparing 1 class's current weekly stats to anothers, in order to validate imbalance would only be presented by someone who has 0 idea how common sense, or math works lol
"this class got more rps this week then this one, so its clearly to op and unfair", [edited]
that's not actually correct, that is how math works.
If one thing has a correlation with another, note that doesn't mean it's causation, but it's still got founding in math.
The hypothesis would be;
Because this class is on average making high rps when compared to other classes is because this class gets in groups that in the end make more rps.
Whether or not it's true or not if the numbers show a class on average is making more rps than a competing class then it's completely valid to come up with that hypothesis.
Right now heretics could be making on the whole more rps because more people are playing them, are they on average making more now post patch then pre?
In actual fact if I look at the last week rps, heretics, in fact albs barely even make a showing, the first heretric on the list is #45 for LWRP.
Heretic actually have 23 in the top 1000 classes, given there are 45 or so classes in total to choose from , so statistically they're average on the highest rp earners (based on top 1000).... maybe that will change if we were to look again next week.
But when it comes to zerg fights all of this becomes foggy and hard to really say heretics make more rps, but are heretics causing the zerg as a whole to win more and thus make more rps as a whole on a realm? well based on the herald it would appear albs typically have less kills and less rps when comparing against mids and hibs, so as a realm albs are not. Against thats last week, who knows what next week's version of last week will show.
It's interesting though, as a side note, it does appear that based on the data, the claim of a 90% win rate of the US prime run alb bg seems suspicious given the stats dont support it....
how many of the people on 1 class suck ? how much time do they play ? what kidna groups do they run in ? how many are actualy playing, there is so much variable change that effects those stats that has nothing to do with the class you have to be an idiot to even for 1 second consider otherwise
l
like seriously ? lol
That statistics can't build out really given that there are usually 1 to 2 fights a night on average. The majority of the time is camping or roaming. It takes a week to gather true statistics to build it out to a solid percentage. Almost like figuring on dps on a test. You can round the damage up or down depending on the test, but until you cast or hit a test with enough samples, the data will be flawed. If alb is winning 9/10 fights, then yeah, we can say they win 90% of the time (and that is one bg considered and not the other). I'd have to support your note that we follow an unbiased report from excidio (aka the Herald) rather than a biased opinion though.
you have to have the same person paly the same class in the same type of sceneiros for the same amount of play time for it to even be reasonable, and even then its still determinded a lot on what they run into, its not the same type of fights all the time in daoc
some people get zerged a few times a dya and log off and odnt really do so well, some people grind it out and finish their 75k in quests everyday
way to many things effect stats to have any thing to do with the class, [edited]
I only bring up peoples lack of understanding of game mechanics when they are choosing to be rude and speak in generalities. To me it's fair game.
Is there enough lag between instant that makes it not UI? Asking a legitimate question. I've only played mine to CV and have yet to have it interrupted. I'm guessing you're talking about amnesia interrupting the instant cast?
you have to have the same person paly the same class in the same type of sceneiros for the same amount of play time for it to even be reasonable, and even then its still determinded a lot on what they run into, its not the same type of fights all the time in daoc
some people get zerged a few times a dya and log off and odnt really do so well, some people grind it out and finish their 75k in quests everyday
way to many things effect stats to have any thing to do with the class, [edited]
You can still draw some conclusions with the data available on the herald. All the variables you listed are convoluted into the metrics reported. Unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise, those variables are distributed across all classes. If you use the RP metric as a gauge for performance, then you can conclude which classes perform better than others overall. However, this does not delineate play style (BG, 8man, or small man) with the exception of soloing since we have a metric (Solo Kills) to measure that.
Post edited by Driralin on
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Is there enough lag between instant that makes it not UI? Asking a legitimate question. I've only played mine to CV and have yet to have it interrupted. I'm guessing you're talking about amnesia interrupting the instant cast?
The single and AOE focus snares are not uninterruptible. The single target instant snare is definitely not the focus of complaints right now.
You're much more educated than me on alb characters, so i'll take that. Excidio doesnt explain this well, and i havent tested nearly enough on mine, but do all of the focus snares break on damage? Pretty sure my single insta does not.
You're much more educated than me on alb characters, so i'll take that. Excidio doesnt explain this well, and i havent tested nearly enough on mine, but do all of the focus snares break on damage? Pretty sure my single insta does not.
The focus breaks, so you stop channeling more ticks, but the snare itself does not break on damage. So if you pulse one tick of focus, it'll last the duration altered by resists.
For the insta, the first 5 seconds (before resists) are unbreakable. Then it casts another spell, a breakable snare, on your target.
Comments
Personally I think ST is going to be limited to Pally/Thane/Champion.
I don't get the Tic OP posts/threads. They aren't going to sit there and nuke you down, it's essentially a snare.
Midgard could roll more RM's and Thanes and easily outpace Tics. They're simply an annoyance.
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I posted the below in another Tic QQ thread but I think its useful, especially looking at the boost both Tics AND Thanes received.
Level 50 Heretics and Level 50 Runemasters
A more interesting comparison however is to Thanes. Post patch Thane and Heretic performance is actually mirroring each other.
Level 50 Heretics and Level 50 Thanes
So while yes Heretics have become more popular and Albion has access to more STs than before, Midgard should still have plenty more STs than Albion and both the Mid ST classes are heavily benefiting from the patch, despite all the QQing here.
Data is from http://www.excidio.net/herald/stats/class/
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Numbers don't lie. Thank you for posting actual data, all of the "Tic OP threads" were getting old with absolutely nothing to back up the claims that were being made.
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Don't disagree, I think having two classes with ST just leads to too much of an ST fest. Just need to make sure it's equally distributed in terms of player pop, either by putting it on classes that post similar pops or adjusting ST classes that are underplayed.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
November 16
Arms/Pally - they pay 2x spec points for 2h. Give a few tweaks to 2H and Polearm growth rates and style effects.
Cleric - Smite line is the worst out of Nature/Cave/Smite, by far. Even Stormcalling is superior to Smite, and it's a 2.0 line.
Sorcs - Body and Matter line could use some buffs. Minor ones in Body.
Cab - Body and Spirit line could use 1 or 2 more spells in spec. Spirit needs more baseline spells to put it on par with SM/Chanter.
Wizard - Fire needs some buffs unrelated to single target damage. Utility or niche AOE. Earth utility could be improved a small amount if we're using non-Alb casters as a measuring stick. Ice is OK, but messy.
Necro - Absorb buffs aren't working; could use some damage type integration to Alb nuke trains
Theurgist - Remove pet cap. Never needed to go in. Add some spells to Air and Ice not related to pet spam, and make higher level ice pet damage scale slightly. I've always suggested some AOE storms, which were sort of made into reality on the BD with their totems later on.
Minstrel - Maybe make some of the songs/abilities a little more hybrid friendly.
Reaver - Levi and Cobra were nerfed too hard.
Scout - Scouts should have slightly higher range and slower bows as they did before, preferably by reverting the others down back to their old levels.
That's a pretty good list btw.
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where did runemasters benefit apart from getting ST ?
one hib class should have lost st ....
everything in your realm needs buffing, everything in the other realm needs nerfing. QQ that's your reasoning. so unbiased, if only BS would listens to you. you are a visionary and probably the saviour of Daoc if only BS would listen to you.
/sarcasm off.
Some parts of Mid and Hib need adjustments up and QOL changes. And not "all" of Alb needs a buff, but yes I stand by that list.
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But, Muy, you do the exact same thing with Mid toons, except, and this is the major difference, Ylazul actually makes reasonable posts regarding issues with Alb classes, and states issues with Mid/Hib classes as well (as he plays all 3 realms).
There is certainly an issue overall with all 3 heavy tanks in terms of what they were capable of 4 years ago compared to today.
All 3 heavy tanks are sub-par outside of group/zerg gameplay (any class can be more effective in group/zerg gameplay) with Armsmen being the worse utility wise compared to Warrior's and Hero's.
My thread was simply stating that the Armsmen class could use a polishing, not a buff to make them OP, just polished up a bit to make them more effective in todays game.
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Tics either need to have st or snare removed. Both is over the top.
Yes, that is subjective as wel
Also, I would risk it, you have self awareness, willingly participating in discussions, even considering changing your view if you find other feedback useful.
Ylazul just hijacks every possible topic to state his agenda which is fairly simple once you seen a few of his comments.
- Mids always cries for buffs
- Albs underpowered
- Mids overpowered
- Pick some random data from the game to justify his very often used "objectivity"
- State his superiority in game balancing over both other players, and the majority of game designers
- Hes knowledge on some class/spec is limited just like everyones, including myself.
This is perfectly fine tbh, someone has to represent that point of view too, I only have issues on deliberately picking each classes weaknesses in his loved realm, and each classes strength in his hated realm (sorry, his hate towards mids in general is very clear).
I have no issue when there is a discussion to be made, or if someone loves his realm. The sad truth is however, every realm, including Hibernia - who could just chill and laugh on alb vs mids kitten arguments - have strong classes, and good abilities. All realms have popular, fun, and good classes. All realm have classes who underperform in certain situations, and have worse spec-lines then their most popular ones. This is not a game where every class perform equally in all possible situation - solo/fg/zerg... And to be fair, DAoC have okay-ish balance. If this game had 0 realm/class balance, it would be dead long ago, with 1 realm ruling everything, but so far, every realm has a chance, and can compete, only 1.125 data is very limited since its fairly new.
This does not mean the balance is perfect, there are classes that under or over perform for sure, but its far less easy to state certain realms clear superiority then people like to paint on all side of the table. Also, let's hope that all realm will have equal chance to fight in the future with similar population, that would be the best. Of course zerg leaders in general also have huge impact on a realms population in certain time periods which should be taken in account, but our main goal I think is still to discuss / tell our opinion however false it might be to Broadsword mainly. Arguing with each other I think is pretty useless, since none of us will make the changes live. A civilised disagreement I think its fine enough.
I can appreciate and respect your view point and agree with much of what you stated. Appreciate the compliments as well.
In all actuality, you're correct. We can build/design an entire matrix in ways that each realm is superior to the other. That's the beauty of DAoC. There isn't 1 single cookie-cutter build/group design that will win 99% of the time. There are always alternative builds/pairings that may trump an enemies layout.
I also agree that certain classes shouldn't be balanced to dominate in solo/small-man/group/zerg. The motivation for this thread comes from my (and other heavy tanks) inability to solo even remotely as effectively as we could 3-4 years ago.
If my template/stats/gear creep/RR are all increasing, than why would I be under-performing. If anything I should be performing even better than I did 3-4 years ago.
So instead of entering into the micro-data and nit-picking every single thing that has changed, I think a reasonable suggestion would be to re-evaluate the Heavy Tanks and see where we stand in all aspects of the game. As I've stated we shine very well in group/zerg game play because the level of skill required (no disrespect to anyone) is significantly less than in solo/small-man.
You can tell by the accumulated stats that tanks in general aren't a favored class in rvr (although i'm sure Herorius could probably skew the Hero stats by himself lol).
So what I'm suggesting, at least for Armsman, is maybe upping our growth rates again (polearm/2h), or perhaps introducing a taunt that works in RvR, removing the -10% penalty on the rr5 and/or making the rr5 360 degree's but introducing a movement penalty instead or penalty to dps. Possibly buffing up the armsmans AF/abs a few percentage points. Possibly removing the 25spc requirement for snapshot and introducing it as a class specific ability.
Nothing outrageous, nothing that when implemented will suddenly make the Armsman FoTM and OP. Just something positive to even out the utility differentials that have been developed over the last few years of patches.
I know John stated previously that Heavy Tanks weren't being touched during the major class revamp patch, and at the time I agree'd that there really wasn't anything they needed, but at least today they can use a minor review and some polishing up.
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I already wrote to your topic so I don't wan't go into details here, but yes, at least one thing is clear, that Tanks perform worse today on solo field then they used to. Other classes too, but tanks go into that category too. It's just my opinion, but I think the popularity of stealthers / archers on solo meta is the main differentiating factor on Tanks underperforming in general. Archers became very good in kiting game, which was always one of Tanks weaknesses, Light tanks also perform well (although they just got a very minor nerf), and what's common is in those classes are: Dual Wield, Kite. DW currently amazing vs shields, and tanks are very one of the worst class to get kited on. Of course this on tanks in general, but they perform much better against other classes then against what I've mentioned.
Regarding Armsman issues, I don't have enough data, and already made a feedback. Taking a look if the plate armor doesn't compensate the difficulty of Arms speccing at least doesn't hurt, I only have knowledge on Hero/Warrior gameplay on tanks. Truth be told, Arms isn't my worse fear when I go out solo, but neither other tanks.
As regards any comments you make regarding realm balance inevitably you are going to get comments from people that they know better than you.
But here’s the thing just because someone has an in depth knowledge of game mechanics dosent mean they are right about realm balance.
And here’s my reasoning for that someone with an in depth knowledge of the game would probably likely be a great soloer and group player and would use the strengths of the toon he plays to its limits.
So he would base his class balance ideas on the maximum use of that toons abilitys.
The trouble is 90 percent of people do not play the game that way and never fully utilise the full abilities of a class.
Now whether that’s laziness not investing enough time in playing the game or just wanting casual play or age related slowness that’s how it is.
So I think sometimes a lot of people don’t see where the patch ideas are coming from and maybe developers and people making class changes need to take account of that.
After all those 90 percenters are part of the food chain that the top 10 percent thrive on.
My point is and allways has been you need some overpowered classes on each realm to compensate for people’s playing ability.
To level the playing field if you like and allow either new players coming back or just slowing down to have fun.
I admit that some of the suggestions on Armsman changes are one of the most discrete ideas on this forums.
RMs have access to both. Should they also lose one?
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I find this a gross over-exaggeration. You understand that heretics have been able to aoe-snare for years, right? Ice/Earth wizards also have aoe-DD/snare...
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"this class got more rps this week then this one, so its clearly to op and unfair", [edited]
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Have you tried to run as of late and do that? How is it working for you?
I can't speak for other Pac Healers, but I have utilized amnesia on multiple occasions (BG play or otherwise). The Healer is not an easy class to play; but that is not a reason to ignore its utility.
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that's not actually correct, that is how math works.
If one thing has a correlation with another, note that doesn't mean it's causation, but it's still got founding in math.
The hypothesis would be;
Because this class is on average making high rps when compared to other classes is because this class gets in groups that in the end make more rps.
Whether or not it's true or not if the numbers show a class on average is making more rps than a competing class then it's completely valid to come up with that hypothesis.
Right now heretics could be making on the whole more rps because more people are playing them, are they on average making more now post patch then pre?
In actual fact if I look at the last week rps, heretics, in fact albs barely even make a showing, the first heretric on the list is #45 for LWRP.
Heretic actually have 23 in the top 1000 classes, given there are 45 or so classes in total to choose from , so statistically they're average on the highest rp earners (based on top 1000).... maybe that will change if we were to look again next week.
But when it comes to zerg fights all of this becomes foggy and hard to really say heretics make more rps, but are heretics causing the zerg as a whole to win more and thus make more rps as a whole on a realm? well based on the herald it would appear albs typically have less kills and less rps when comparing against mids and hibs, so as a realm albs are not. Against thats last week, who knows what next week's version of last week will show.
It's interesting though, as a side note, it does appear that based on the data, the claim of a 90% win rate of the US prime run alb bg seems suspicious given the stats dont support it....
TheWayForward
Heretic snare is not UI.
@Gavner
I only bring up peoples lack of understanding of game mechanics when they are choosing to be rude and speak in generalities. To me it's fair game.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
l
like seriously ? lol
some people get zerged a few times a dya and log off and odnt really do so well, some people grind it out and finish their 75k in quests everyday
way to many things effect stats to have any thing to do with the class, [edited]
Is there enough lag between instant that makes it not UI? Asking a legitimate question. I've only played mine to CV and have yet to have it interrupted. I'm guessing you're talking about amnesia interrupting the instant cast?
You can still draw some conclusions with the data available on the herald. All the variables you listed are convoluted into the metrics reported. Unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise, those variables are distributed across all classes. If you use the RP metric as a gauge for performance, then you can conclude which classes perform better than others overall. However, this does not delineate play style (BG, 8man, or small man) with the exception of soloing since we have a metric (Solo Kills) to measure that.
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The single and AOE focus snares are not uninterruptible. The single target instant snare is definitely not the focus of complaints right now.
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Mauler
Drop the st or drop the snare....both is too much.
The focus breaks, so you stop channeling more ticks, but the snare itself does not break on damage. So if you pulse one tick of focus, it'll last the duration altered by resists.
For the insta, the first 5 seconds (before resists) are unbreakable. Then it casts another spell, a breakable snare, on your target.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler