When Nate's gone leave it to the others to keep the "spam" going though....
Regardless of who is doing it, its ridiculous. Wish i could enjoy coming to the forums for legitimate updates.
my vote is for a Video section for those that enjoy thumping their chest and the fanbois who love that sort of thing
and for a bitch and moan section for those affected by changes.. not changing.. can't beat every class on my favorite toon section...
And .. i have no savage.. dont care.. i play all 3 realms.. still dont care.. i have a hunter.. dont care.. i have a shaman.. dont care.. i have a necro .. dont care. I bit..i prolonged the spam by replying to this thread.. but omfg
It was something Mid never needed nor deserved in the first place, but here we are ... Mids complaining again.
neither do vamps, or minstrels. So let's just remove it from savages, vamps, and mini's and we are all good
Vamps, maybe. Minstrels? Yes, their stealth line is way too weak for a 1.5 spec class. So on top of Climb Walls, they should get something else as well. How about stealth lore or friendly-cast stealth buff?
Otherwise if we want to play "realm balance" you can lose chambers, controllable multi-pets, a literal Wizard in Chain (Thanes), uninterruptible casts, Shaman +35% melee buff, Shaman 200% damage shell, 100/s tick instant HoT, +50% healing buff, the powerful debuffs in cave (-75% magic damage? +end cost?), NS/DZ/DoT Cure+Heal, group heal buff, a second spread healer, intercept pets, PBAE confuse, PBAE power heal on a 15s timer, free 2h, 3 charge classes, weaponskill upgrades (Hunter, Warr, Skald over their counterparts).
Countless other things that you're not so keen on "evening out."
In exchange you can get another class, made out of all the RAs and abilities your other classes have to sacrifice to create it. And Sorcs can lose Bolt Range Mezz, but get AOE Stun, Instant Stun, Instant AOE Stun, Instant Mez, and Instant AOE Mez to comp.
Doesnt take a genius to figure out who plays what realm predominately on these post does it?
I spend about the same time on each realm lately and i could easily narrow down several classes on each realm that continuously gripe and moan about the same crap. Each realm has their champions.. each realm has their whiners. Each realm has a class that dominates others in some form or fashion. Then you have your truly "pro" players. Those who excel at any class for some reason or another. Maybe they understand game mechanics better than any. Maybe the cheat better and never get caught. In the end, i wish people would enjoy the game much better. At this rate, people would rather work 12 hours a day digging ditches. Ive hear less whining from people ive seen do that...
It was something Mid never needed nor deserved in the first place, but here we are ... Mids complaining again.
neither do vamps, or minstrels. So let's just remove it from savages, vamps, and mini's and we are all good
Vamps, maybe. Minstrels? Yes, their stealth line is way too weak for a 1.5 spec class. So on top of Climb Walls, they should get something else as well. How about stealth lore or friendly-cast stealth buff?
Otherwise if we want to play "realm balance" you can lose chambers, controllable multi-pets, a literal Wizard in Chain (Thanes), uninterruptible casts, Shaman +35% melee buff, Shaman 200% damage shell, 100/s tick instant HoT, +50% healing buff, the powerful debuffs in cave (-75% magic damage? +end cost?), NS/DZ/DoT Cure+Heal, group heal buff, a second spread healer, intercept pets, PBAE confuse, PBAE power heal on a 15s timer, free 2h, 3 charge classes, weaponskill upgrades (Hunter, Warr, Skald over their counterparts).
Countless other things that you're not so keen on "evening out."
In exchange you can get another class, made out of all the RAs and abilities your other classes have to sacrifice to create it. And Sorcs can lose Bolt Range Mezz, but get AOE Stun, Instant Stun, Instant AOE Stun, Instant Mez, and Instant AOE Mez to comp.
So I never said lets take away anything that makes alb alb, I am saying that non realm spec abilities(i.e. climb walls, and ST) need to be given equally or not given at all
So I never said lets take away anything that makes alb alb, I am saying that non realm spec abilities(i.e. climb walls, and ST) need to be given equally or not given at all
Why? Apologies for being blunt, but I think you're splitting arbitrary hairs just because they favor Mid in the moment. What IS a non realm spec ability, anyway, and what makes climb walls and ST so special other than they're perceived to be something Mid deserves, just because?
Non-realm spec abilities, how about charge (Mid has 3)? How about spread heals (Mid has 2)? How about Bolts? (Mid has 5)? How about AOE stun? How about Heal Buffs (Alb has 0)? And this isn't even going into things that are a class of their own (Sham buffs/debuffs), or where Mid has superior versions (Sham hybrid heal in damage line, BD pets, Healer stun), or where Mid has things better positioned (AF debuff, Seer baselines, even Runie DD/Debuff debuffs for a Mid primary damage type, etc).
And because Mid has one less class it means 20% of your classes have Charge (for Alb/Hib it's 16%), 13% have Spread Heal (6% for Alb/Hib), 20% have bolts (6%).
And you say "I never said lets away anything that makes Alb Alb", yet that's exactly what has happened.
Theurgists used to be an Alb advantage. Confuse cast time was lowered to 2.5s and handed out to more classes, and more fears were thrown into the game. A PBAE confuse was added to Skalds. They've become much more manageable.
Bolt range mez is nice but it's inferior to a Healer's CC Kit. Sorc mez damp was literally stolen from Sorcs and given to Bards.
Skalds even got Minstrel's health buffer, which Mids have complained about for decades. They got their DD buffed. Their DD has a power heal, which recharges faster than a Reaver's, not even to mention the fact that Reavers are less of a support class, so power heal makes even less sense on them. Minstrels got nothing of the Skald's.
Spec AF? Given to Healers, and to compound things, a baseline stacking +25 AF was added to SMs, and Chanters can potentially get a spammable, 4000 range, 30s duration +300 AF buff. Granted, Alb got celerity, but they're worse versions of it on the least compatible classes compared to Mid (Minstrel is a hard cast on a hybrid and doesn't affect pets, Paladin is short range)
Hunters used to have faster bows and the shortest range. Now they're on par with Scouts, but keep their pets and higher melee WS table.
Paladins and Armsmen used to get slight growth rate advantages for needing to double spec. Defender's Rage and many others got nerfed for not much justification.
Reaver styles? Cobra and Levi were nerfed. H2H and Scythe are still tops, on classes with significantly higher WS tables.
Necros have been turned into a fairly standard caster class. And even AF debuff was stolen and given to Warlocks and Animists, who gave nothing to the Necromancer in return. Their power tap and transfer were stolen and given to Spiritmasters to shore up their weakest line. Yet Alb casters crap lines have been ignored pretty much since release.
2.5 spec on Infs? Assassins have been buffed in a way that Env is heavily favored, and Thrust has been through two or maybe three rounds of nerfs.
Now literally all Alb has is a "third stealth class" (as if that means anything - Minstrels are terrible stealthers), bolt range mezz, and Heretics (the big one), and maybe PW Necros (nerfed this patch, again). In a realm where bolt range mez is the least meaningful, because you're always going to be on the defensive avoiding interrupts since Alb's melee has the worst synergy and is the most thinly supported.
And guess what? On the front page of the forums, you have one topic per advantage someone asking to dilute (by giving to Mid - already done with climb walls) or nerf these remaining unique Alb features.
For people crying about Mids whining, there is certainly enough whines in here from all sides.
Each realm is going to advocate for their classes, period. They are going to be long convoluted posts about it...always have been, always will. BS will do what they want and implement what they want, when they want. It is what it is.
Like it or don't. Play, or don't.
You will either adapt to the changes, or you won't.
I do like the seeing the different perspectives from the players. I may not agree with anything, and to some extent, I can see the points of some...but it is nice to see people being <somewhat> civil about it.
For people crying about Mids whining, there is certainly enough whines in here from all sides.
Each realm is going to advocate for their classes, period. They are going to be long convoluted posts about it...always have been, always will. BS will do what they want and implement what they want, when they want. It is what it is.
Like it or don't. Play, or don't.
You will either adapt to the changes, or you won't.
I do like the seeing the different perspectives from the players. I may not agree with anything, and to some extent, I can see the points of some...but it is nice to see people being <somewhat> civil about it.
The main criticism is Mid receiving (hardly arguable) an over-all buff in this recent patch yet still finding plenty of room to complain.
It get's old after a while. I mean the official forums were up for what, 2 days and the infamous "Healer's need DPS" thread was created?
For people crying about Mids whining, there is certainly enough whines in here from all sides.
Each realm is going to advocate for their classes, period. They are going to be long convoluted posts about it...always have been, always will. BS will do what they want and implement what they want, when they want. It is what it is.
This is not objectively true. Feel free to strain through the forum posts if you like, I'm sure you'll find some realms complain more than others, and some are more vociferous and incisive in their complaints (strategically targeting specific abilities and campaigning on certain "platforms"). Also note the history of balance changes.
Likewise, realm balance matters. We can't resort to "all realms advocate for their classes." This is fallacy - some classes need more advocacy than others, and the evidence and support should lie in the debate, not surface-level platitudes or essentially meme-like political campaigning, that is unfair and unhelpful to designers/devs.
I argue that Mid entitlement has significantly dragged down the quality of game balance and the community as a whole, and it needs to face some pushback if we're want to make the F2P transition successful.
So I never said lets take away anything that makes alb alb, I am saying that non realm spec abilities(i.e. climb walls, and ST) need to be given equally or not given at all
Why? Apologies for being blunt, but I think you're splitting arbitrary hairs just because they favor Mid in the moment. What IS a non realm spec ability, anyway, and what makes climb walls and ST so special other than they're perceived to be something Mid deserves, just because?
Non-realm spec abilities, how about charge (Mid has 3)? How about spread heals (Mid has 2)? How about Bolts? (Mid has 5)? How about AOE stun? How about Heal Buffs (Alb has 0)? And this isn't even going into things that are a class of their own (Sham buffs/debuffs), or where Mid has superior versions (Sham hybrid heal in damage line, BD pets, Healer stun), or where Mid has things better positioned (AF debuff, Seer baselines, even Runie DD/Debuff debuffs for a Mid primary damage type, etc).
And because Mid has one less class it means 20% of your classes have Charge (for Alb/Hib it's 16%), 13% have Spread Heal (6% for Alb/Hib), 20% have bolts (6%).
And you say "I never said lets away anything that makes Alb Alb", yet that's exactly what has happened.
Theurgists used to be an Alb advantage. Confuse cast time was lowered to 2.5s and handed out to more classes, and more fears were thrown into the game. A PBAE confuse was added to Skalds. They've become much more manageable.
Bolt range mez is nice but it's inferior to a Healer's CC Kit. Sorc mez damp was literally stolen from Sorcs and given to Bards.
Skalds even got Minstrel's health buffer, which Mids have complained about for decades. They got their DD buffed. Their DD has a power heal, which recharges faster than a Reaver's, not even to mention the fact that Reavers are less of a support class, so power heal makes even less sense on them. Minstrels got nothing of the Skald's.
Spec AF? Given to Healers, and to compound things, a baseline stacking +25 AF was added to SMs, and Chanters can potentially get a spammable, 4000 range, 30s duration +300 AF buff. Granted, Alb got celerity, but they're worse versions of it on the least compatible classes compared to Mid (Minstrel is a hard cast on a hybrid and doesn't affect pets, Paladin is short range)
Hunters used to have faster bows and the shortest range. Now they're on par with Scouts, but keep their pets and higher melee WS table.
Paladins and Armsmen used to get slight growth rate advantages for needing to double spec. Defender's Rage and many others got nerfed for not much justification.
Reaver styles? Cobra and Levi were nerfed. H2H and Scythe are still tops, on classes with significantly higher WS tables.
Necros have been turned into a fairly standard caster class. And even AF debuff was stolen and given to Warlocks and Animists, who gave nothing to the Necromancer in return. Their power tap and transfer were stolen and given to Spiritmasters to shore up their weakest line. Yet Alb casters crap lines have been ignored pretty much since release.
2.5 spec on Infs? Assassins have been buffed in a way that Env is heavily favored, and Thrust has been through two or maybe three rounds of nerfs.
Now literally all Alb has is a "third stealth class" (as if that means anything - Minstrels are terrible stealthers), bolt range mezz, and Heretics (the big one), and maybe PW Necros (nerfed this patch, again). In a realm where bolt range mez is the least meaningful, because you're always going to be on the defensive avoiding interrupts since Alb's melee has the worst synergy and is the most thinly supported.
And guess what? On the front page of the forums, you have one topic per advantage someone asking to dilute (by giving to Mid - already done with climb walls) or nerf these remaining unique Alb features.
I agree with everything on this thread except the "Minstrels are terrible stealthers" comment. A well played minstrel will turn the tide in a stealther battle. Stun, mez, SoS, and Ameliorating melodies are HUGE in a fight when the other 2 realms don't have access. Not that I'm asking for minstrels to not be able to stealth. They have their disadvantage in moving so slowly while stealthed and scout is the lowest producing ranged stealther for sure which helps to equalize that.
I do also agree with @Jak that Mids are not the only ones complaining. I've seen it from all sides, but the sheer amount of complaining of the Mids on the Savage/climb wall change is mind blowing since they have been complaining about a 3rd wall climber forever, get it, and yet still whine because they can't get wall climb AND maintain an optimum spec. It's like complaining about not having food and then complaining because I got a hamburger instead of lobster. Be happy you got something.
Maybe this is my problem, but I never take stealth battles seriously as balance considerations. I feel like other than being a tiny subset of PVP, they have no real impact on RvR in the broad sense other than being extremely frustrating for almost everyone involved. I've always believed stealth zergs should be stamped out of the game by integrating stealthers even more obviously into visible groups, while providing rewards for clever use of stealth and punishments for having masses of stealthers clumped together.
That said, since Archers and Assassins were buffed I think there's a definite change in the calculus of whether you want a Minstrel or another class in its place. AM is big, but mostly if the enemy group is not assisting (easy enough with archers), or can't (by kiting - not that it's easy to kite arrows). If anything Warguard is the big one, but a Scout/Inf in the Minst's place would have something to offer as well.
Likewise, with the proliferation of pots and heal procs, mez poison and disease spam, the Minstrel's support abilities wane by comparison, and now with procs the way they are, the Minstrel's game-worst melee DPS (tied with Bards since they got a second DD) is almost a liability. You miss much more and thus get fewer uber procs off, and when you do hit the damage is so underwhelming that you risk shooting yourself in the foot by triggering an heal/hot proc that erases or surpasses your damage in the first place.
This is just my personal observation here, but in trying to give everyone here's argument a fair shake, to come into this conversation with an open mind, it's hard to take complaints seriously if the argument cherry picks examples that fit the argument and ignores the things that have already been done to mitigate the argument for unfair/unbalanced realm treatment.
In fact I think acknowledging the things that have been done to mitigate x y or z inbalance probably does more than simply make the devs or population across the realm isle understand that you are trying to have a rational discussion, but it also probably allows us as posters to look at things more rationally which should improve our argument, or if there is no serious issue, allow us to gracefully acknowledge that.
I will agree that with all of the heals put into the game AM is not as huge as before, but I still say a good minstril in a stealth group or small man provides alot of benefits if played well. You are correct that the alb stealth group/small man that runs with a minstril does lose a bit of dps and other things a scout/inf provides.
Also, just want to stress again that I (unlike many others here) am not asking for any change to minstrils, I was just commenting on your post @Ylazul.
I am truly sorry that all you can see is the perceived negative that is happening to the realm you play, but I assure you alb is far from weak. Theurgists are still one of the most dangerous casters in game, being able to lock down most support with 2 pets on each support class (if played right). Paladins get insta rez and heals on par with most healers on mid. Reavers get pbaoe fear and abs debuff plus and insta LT. Necros are still powerful (maybe not so powerful where 2 can take out a full bg like it happened after the necro change) and gain life back with every shape change. Clerics not only get great heals but get pbaoe mez, and a DD that puts them on par with any pure caster plus their rr5. So please continue to whine about how bad alb is, I'm done listening to you
@Koe always appreciate having someone that is willing to discuss and reason and debate the merits of an argument rather than hurl insults, regardless of which side of the argument you're weighing in favor of. Better than Slinging Memes like a King/Queen, like certain other posters who are getting moderated.
Personally I think savage will be an interesting choice. While Skalds would have provided a much larger strategic benefit and one much more comparable to Minstrels (remember minstrels also get siege buff with the 150 area radius- great for oil postern doors or inner doors when in a hurry), at least there should be more siege parity than prior to the patch.
I will agree that with all of the heals put into the game AM is not as huge as before, but I still say a good minstril in a stealth group or small man provides alot of benefits if played well. You are correct that the alb stealth group/small man that runs with a minstril does lose a bit of dps and other things a scout/inf provides.
Also, just want to stress again that I (unlike many others here) am not asking for any change to minstrils, I was just commenting on your post @Ylazul.
I think I just have an issue with stealth groups. The potential is there, but I don't believe they've actually won relics or keep fights before. It's rather just a game of being able to call as many stealthers to a place as you can and getting the cheapest, quickest kills on solos and stragglers.
I can appreciate that @Ylazul for sure. I generally run solo, but will do some small groups on stealth on occasion. Usually duo/trio, but will occasionally get 4-5 if the action calls for it.
I mainly play in stealth, when we don’t have a minni we get one. Not for anything but mez/am/sos/speed. Those 4 things make survival an occurrence that is most desirable.
I see where assassins got a buff but where exactly did archers get that same said buff, no one asked for half of the archery shots, I dont even have half of them on my bar. Imo we as archers got nerfed, and have been easy killings for most classes except for one. Guess what one..
Like @RonELuvv said they/group sacrifice said infil/scout for those exact aspects of said class. Lets be honest for a minute here, how many archers do you have issues killing... None. Its the grouped aspect of said class assisting jusr like tank or nook train, just you cannot see it until its to late. That is the only advantage I see. Other than that archers are the easiest class to kill on any class anywhere.
@Koe always appreciate having someone that is willing to discuss and reason and debate the merits of an argument rather than hurl insults, regardless of which side of the argument you're weighing in favor of. Better than Slinging Memes like a King/Queen, like certain other posters who are getting moderated.
That does not help with the "constructive" debate either.
And it is always best not to take quotes out of context.
Haven't logged on the minstrel in a very long time but vaguely remember being 50instru, 44slash with 8 stealth @ rr11+ and climbing walls... maybe I'm wrong and not remembering correctly, in any case if savage is required to have 50 in savagery then a minst should be required to have 25 into stealth (both being unmodified by rank/skill).
I see where assassins got a buff but where exactly did archers get that same said buff, no one asked for half of the archery shots, I dont even have half of them on my bar. Imo we as archers got nerfed, and have been easy killings for most classes except for one. Guess what one..
If I'm not mistaken, Rangers and Hunters got additional range, and it was a DPS/proc boost to Archers, with some useful shots thrown in.
Long ago they brought every archer to the same standards when it comes to bow/type/range. The shot draw times, and reset timers were more a nerf then a buff, boost in damage from magical shots that take to long to shoot. PB shot was our bread and butter they took it added some buff to go along with it that has 0 to do with bow. They took every archer and slapped them on the same dmg table and gave them all similar shots. While some useful and even clutch in some situations, i would rather go back to old archery. Never going to happen, and the class will just stay as it is cause no one likes getting hit by 8 archers.
I mainly play in stealth, when we don’t have a minni we get one. Not for anything but mez/am/sos/speed. Those 4 things make survival an occurrence that is most desirable.
I see where assassins got a buff but where exactly did archers get that same said buff, no one asked for half of the archery shots, I dont even have half of them on my bar. Imo we as archers got nerfed, and have been easy killings for most classes except for one. Guess what one..
Like @RonELuvv said they/group sacrifice said infil/scout for those exact aspects of said class. Lets be honest for a minute here, how many archers do you have issues killing... None. Its the grouped aspect of said class assisting jusr like tank or nook train, just you cannot see it until its to late. That is the only advantage I see. Other than that archers are the easiest class to kill on any class anywhere.
GL
I was actually thinking of when I first came back and was running with you guys. I think it was me, you, phat, and either rob or damien but with the 4 of us (myself being super low RR on the scout at the time) and we killed an 8 man of mid stealth just due to the cc and other accessories that phat brought us on the mini. It was also LA so we can take it with a grain of salt.
In regards to your post about archers, I do like some of what the new archery brings, but I as well would much rather go back to old archery as opposed to the new one. It was much easier and I loved being able to pre-pull my crit shots and so when an assassin or anyone got in range I could immediately shoot them. With as fast as sin's move now (as well as mount/speed stones on non-speed classes) when you pull a crit shot your lucky to have it go off before they are out of range. However, you take the bad with the good, and like you said, its not going to change back so I just adapt and learn to roll with it.
Question. Did ANYONE actually log to pendragon on a savage and test how "horrendously" they'd perform in a group/bg or heck even solo speccing 50 savagery 43 h2h or 2h??
All I saw was a TON of paper DAoC flying around. Muy did you test anything at all? Did you try and verify how much your WS would drop? How many fewer triple and quad hits you'd land?
Question. Did ANYONE actually log to pendragon on a savage and test how "horrendously" they'd perform in a group/bg or heck even solo speccing 50 savagery 43 h2h or 2h??
All I saw was a TON of paper DAoC flying around. Muy did you test anything at all? Did you try and verify how much your WS would drop? How many fewer triple and quad hits you'd land?
This.
Not sure how it could have been tested with the drop turn around time.
As I have said before; BS will drop in a patch that they want. Period. Adapt and move on, or don't play.
Question. Did ANYONE actually log to pendragon on a savage and test how "horrendously" they'd perform in a group/bg or heck even solo speccing 50 savagery 43 h2h or 2h??
All I saw was a TON of paper DAoC flying around. Muy did you test anything at all? Did you try and verify how much your WS would drop? How many fewer triple and quad hits you'd land?
This.
Not sure how it could have been tested with the drop turn around time.
As I have said before; BS will drop in a patch that they want. Period. Adapt and move on, or don't play.
We had what, 3+ days between 1.125 C announcement and release of 1.125 live? Sure that's not an abundant amount of time but surely it's well within reasonable limits to acquire 3-4 hours of testing. I think Muy spent more time posting hypothetical statements on the officials then that.
it looks like the climb walls Mid pined for so much for decades, isn't even worth losing 20-30 weaponskill and one style.
I mean really, it's kind of a moot point. The goal of wall climbers isn't to run the ramparts and wtf power-own every class up there (apparently what the Mids are requesting). It's to interrupt and force enemies to move away from LoS on the walls.
GIVE ME DATA. How much dps do you lose from 44h2h/2h to 43h2h/2h??? Either spec is over +51 composite unless you're rr1 with no +skill and in which case you shouldn't be wall climbing to begin with.
How much % chance do you lose for triple and quad hits?
If the argument is 49/50 h2h/2h then I pose the same question.
How much weapon skill do you lose, how much damage do you lose, what percentage of triple/quad chance do you lose?
Even if (hypothetically) you're sacrificing 100 dps by dropping to 43 h2h/2h is it really that inconvenient to obtain climb walls?
I've fought plenty of 2h savages that just destroy people's faces so I don't want to hear that 2h is unusable either.
I don't want to read paper daoc "what-if" factors, I want to see people actually spec'ing 50 savagery, dropping h2h/2h and parry to obtain climb walls and pumping out the worse damage in daoc history because they had to give up 1 style and between 1 and 6 levels of weapon line because that's essentially what is being claimed here.
I keep my sav 44/49, but an option is always better then nothing.
Exactly! The option is there. Do what you want with it, but stop the complaints. I don't play savage, but it seems pretty simple to me. If you plan to solo or small man you go with the higher weapon spec. If you want to run with the zerg and you are going to be going after keeps then lower the weapon spec and get climb walls. If you want both then be prepared to respec alot.
Also, just to throw this out there, upon training 50 savagery, the climb wall ability becomes passive and is always active. This is different then heavy tanks climb wall ability which has to be cast, lasts 30s and have a 2(?) min RUT
Question. Did ANYONE actually log to pendragon on a savage and test how "horrendously" they'd perform in a group/bg or heck even solo speccing 50 savagery 43 h2h or 2h??
All I saw was a TON of paper DAoC flying around. Muy did you test anything at all? Did you try and verify how much your WS would drop? How many fewer triple and quad hits you'd land?
Question. Did ANYONE actually log to pendragon on a savage and test how "horrendously" they'd perform in a group/bg or heck even solo speccing 50 savagery 43 h2h or 2h??
All I saw was a TON of paper DAoC flying around. Muy did you test anything at all? Did you try and verify how much your WS would drop? How many fewer triple and quad hits you'd land?
This.
Not sure how it could have been tested with the drop turn around time.
As I have said before; BS will drop in a patch that they want. Period. Adapt and move on, or don't play.
We had what, 3+ days between 1.125 C announcement and release of 1.125 live? Sure that's not an abundant amount of time but surely it's well within reasonable limits to acquire 3-4 hours of testing. I think Muy spent more time posting hypothetical statements on the officials then that.
you don't think that giving conc to warlocks and then in a later version of the patch making one of the WC dotss no longer a secondary spell was a premeditated ?
and what do you know about how much testing i did on pendragon ? i'm sure i spend more time on pendragon than almost anyone else.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Also, just to throw this out there, upon training 50 savagery, the climb wall ability becomes passive and is always active. This is different then heavy tanks climb wall ability which has to be cast, lasts 30s and have a 2(?) min RUT
i did not fail to notice that during the Anna BG, the keeps that we assaulted, the walls were swamped by ZERO savages. as a matter of fact, there was not a single savage in the BG. i still have to see a savage climb a wall in a zerg or a fg action. for all purpose, mid didn't gain a climb wall class due to how retarded you have to spec to get climb walls on a savage.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
I keep my sav 44/49, but an option is always better then nothing.
Exactly! The option is there. Do what you want with it, but stop the complaints. I don't play savage, but it seems pretty simple to me. If you plan to solo or small man you go with the higher weapon spec. If you want to run with the zerg and you are going to be going after keeps then lower the weapon spec and get climb walls. If you want both then be prepared to respec alot.
you are now limited to one respec a day i believe ?
I keep my sav 44/49, but an option is always better then nothing.
Exactly! The option is there. Do what you want with it, but stop the complaints. I don't play savage, but it seems pretty simple to me. If you plan to solo or small man you go with the higher weapon spec. If you want to run with the zerg and you are going to be going after keeps then lower the weapon spec and get climb walls. If you want both then be prepared to respec alot.
you said it all there, you don't play a savage. you have no clue about how the class works. you only remember the times your caster who's shield were down, or when you got AF debuffed died in 2 seconds when a savage got a lot of luck with multiple hits and crits. you don't remember all the times you got hit 3 times in a row with 1 attack and the savage did crap damage.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
it looks like the climb walls Mid pined for so much for decades, isn't even worth losing 20-30 weaponskill and one style.
I mean really, it's kind of a moot point. The goal of wall climbers isn't to run the ramparts and wtf power-own every class up there (apparently what the Mids are requesting). It's to interrupt and force enemies to move away from LoS on the walls.
GIVE ME DATA. How much dps do you lose from 44h2h/2h to 43h2h/2h??? Either spec is over +51 composite unless you're rr1 with no +skill and in which case you shouldn't be wall climbing to begin with.
How much % chance do you lose for triple and quad hits?
If the argument is 49/50 h2h/2h then I pose the same question.
How much weapon skill do you lose, how much damage do you lose, what percentage of triple/quad chance do you lose?
Even if (hypothetically) you're sacrificing 100 dps by dropping to 43 h2h/2h is it really that inconvenient to obtain climb walls?
I've fought plenty of 2h savages that just destroy people's faces so I don't want to hear that 2h is unusable either.
I don't want to read paper daoc "what-if" factors, I want to see people actually spec'ing 50 savagery, dropping h2h/2h and parry to obtain climb walls and pumping out the worse damage in daoc history because they had to give up 1 style and between 1 and 6 levels of weapon line because that's essentially what is being claimed here.
i lose 79 weaponskill going from 50+23 to 43+23 weaponskill
it's not just losing triple and quad hits, it's also losing double hits.
i know maybe one or two savages who specced 44 h2h/ 49 savagery and you've never heard about them. standard savage spec, be it for solo, small man, fg or zerg is 50 h2h / 40 savagery, and even after the last savage nerf where they increased the health cost for the lower tier buffs to always be 5 % per buff, savages stayed 40 savagery. (that was a bad nerf already to the 50 / 40 spec and it's devasting on lower level savages during leveling and in the BGS)
i can't actually do a roughly fair test due to weapon procs (AF debuff, 2 ABS debuffs, slash debuff) which modify my damage so much that it fucks up test results without making a test only template when it comes to damage output. but enough tests have been done, amongst others by me, and have been published to show the increase in doing more than one hit by increasing h2h skill.
and you can't test things like miss / getting evaded, parried, blocked on the level 50 dummy. on a REAL test against a player, the targets WS, evade, parry, block rate will affect the outcome also. and also, lol, your loss in con on weapon will affect damage and loss in the targets los in con on armour .... doing multiple 100+ rounds of attacks with different specs will make you lose con on those in the process.
the main thins is doing less attacks and gett more misses, being parried, blocked and evaded more.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
it looks like the climb walls Mid pined for so much for decades, isn't even worth losing 20-30 weaponskill and one style.
you think that from having no frontal, evade based, parry based stun, and having a side positional 9 sec side follow up and a 4 sec rear stun to go to only have a 4 sec back stun is a minor thing ? and its 79 WS on a the lowest weaponskill light tank by far.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Also, just to throw this out there, upon training 50 savagery, the climb wall ability becomes passive and is always active. This is different then heavy tanks climb wall ability which has to be cast, lasts 30s and have a 2(?) min RUT
it's also different from vamps that get it without price to pay and mincers (which imho also should get it for free)
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
You do get +4 percentage points melee buff, melee resist and evade, how does that balance out?
i already made a post about that, in short
1) the 4 % melee buff is negated by the damage you do less due to lower WS and all it's side effects on damage output, reduced chance to do more than one hit, more misses, getting evaded / parried / blocked more.
2) melee resist+ caps at 25%. an item based buff+ to melee resist doesn't add anything over 25%. 21 % from yellow buffs + item based charge still caps at 25 %
3) lowering your WS vs a medium or high WS target will reduce your chance to evade/parry.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
@Muylae You have to stop, man... You are a zerger 100%... and thats totally OK!!! it really is... but you saying that you can't sacrifice your 50 h2h spec because you will lose damage or SOMETHING is just wrong. We got it good, man... Let me ask you, how many times have you used that 50 h2h style? I guarantee ZERO... I have used it only handful of times and it's simply not worth it.. Your outlook on savages is disheartening. They will rip no matter what. Any statistic you say about triples/quads hitting more with 50 h2h is straight bullcocky unless you want to back it up with some science... @Amp_Phetamine has been spot on in everything in this thread. Where is your data? other than QQ's?
For the love of god please stop posting on official forums that the best spec for savage is 50 h2h because it makes me want to not want to live on this planet anymore...
How much lower is the dbl/triple/quad hit % going from 50 to 43 h2h?
i can quote the figures i have for 50 + 22, i would need to do a new run at 43 + 23 vs 50+23 tomorrow if i find time. that stuff is time consuming considering you need hundreds of attacks on each spec to minimize variance by RNG.
someone did it before, i would need to google to find those test results.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
@Muylae You have to stop, man... You are a zerger 100%... and thats totally OK!!! it really is... but you saying that you can't sacrifice your 50 h2h spec because you will lose damage or SOMETHING is just wrong. We got it good, man... Let me ask you, how many times have you used that 50 h2h style? I guarantee ZERO... I have used it only handful of times and it's simply not worth it.. Your outlook on savages is disheartening. They will rip no matter what. Any statistic you say about triples/quads hitting more with 50 h2h is straight bullcocky unless you want to back it up with some science... @Amp_Phetamine has been spot on in everything in this thread. Where is your data? other than QQ's?
For the love of god please stop posting on official forums that the best spec for savage is 50 h2h because it makes me want to not want to live on this planet anymore...
like i said before in this thread, i don't even have the follow ups to the evade and parry reactionaries on my bars due to the extreme low chances of actually doing the full chain. same of all the other high rank savages i speak to.
try getting a frontal 3 chain of on a high rank hero, armsman, merc, bm or ... it doesn't happen when you have upto 500 less weaponskill.
and i'm a zerger ? when was the last time you saw my savage in a zerg ? 48 million rp ago ... i haven't played my savage in a zerg since dinging rr 12. sure, you'll see my warlock in a zerg. you won't see my savage outside of fg, small man or solo. maybe if they wouldn't have put the retarded 50 savagery requirement for climb walls on savages, then you might see my savage again in zerg.
Post edited by Muylae on
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
1) the 4 % melee buff is negated by the damage you do less due to lower WS and all it's side effects on damage output, reduced chance to do more than one hit, more misses, getting evaded / parried / blocked more.
More curious about what % of damage loss you're netting. I remember seeing a Sav 1/2/3/4x hit table and it didn't seem like one spec point is a catastrophic loss, probably around 3-4% fewer hits per X rounds.
So if you want to run around on top of keeps killing people it'll cost something.
@Muylae - so now people can only comment on classes they play? Sorry, but that is some flawed logic there. Also, you can respec twice a day which is plenty for a person who wants to switch to zerg play (respec) and then switch back to solo spec when the zerg dies down (repsec back). Do you solo and small man or do you run with zergs? If you solo and small man then don't get climb walls. If you play zerg and go after keeps then consider spec'ing for climb walls so you can assisst the warriors that climb in. It's really that simple.
My main toon is a ranger. There are things I have to sacrifice in my spec to get other things I use more. If I ran with the stealth zerg I would spec my ranger differently than now while I run mainly solo and occasionally in some smallman. All classes are this way. Why should your class be different?
Mids wanted another climb wall. You got it. Use it or don't but stop qq'ing about having to alter your spec for it. @John_Broadsword heard your complaints and said this was as intended. Move on.
I think his argument of vamps not having tonspec for it and minstrels having it at a lower spec level is pretty valid. I might play around with it, and see for myself the difference in dmg/multi hit swings, but i don’t see it being very useful except for maybe a couple times a night as opposed to more dmg being utilized in every fight. If it was like the hero bg and assaulting keeps was a thing done multiple times a night it would be a no brainer, but mid bg seems to steer clear of keeps most of the time
Comments
Regardless of who is doing it, its ridiculous. Wish i could enjoy coming to the forums for legitimate updates.
my vote is for a Video section for those that enjoy thumping their chest and the fanbois who love that sort of thing
and for a bitch and moan section for those affected by changes.. not changing.. can't beat every class on my favorite toon section...
And .. i have no savage.. dont care.. i play all 3 realms.. still dont care.. i have a hunter.. dont care.. i have a shaman.. dont care.. i have a necro .. dont care. I bit..i prolonged the spam by replying to this thread.. but omfg
neither do vamps, or minstrels. So let's just remove it from savages, vamps, and mini's and we are all good
Vamps, maybe. Minstrels? Yes, their stealth line is way too weak for a 1.5 spec class. So on top of Climb Walls, they should get something else as well. How about stealth lore or friendly-cast stealth buff?
Otherwise if we want to play "realm balance" you can lose chambers, controllable multi-pets, a literal Wizard in Chain (Thanes), uninterruptible casts, Shaman +35% melee buff, Shaman 200% damage shell, 100/s tick instant HoT, +50% healing buff, the powerful debuffs in cave (-75% magic damage? +end cost?), NS/DZ/DoT Cure+Heal, group heal buff, a second spread healer, intercept pets, PBAE confuse, PBAE power heal on a 15s timer, free 2h, 3 charge classes, weaponskill upgrades (Hunter, Warr, Skald over their counterparts).
Countless other things that you're not so keen on "evening out."
In exchange you can get another class, made out of all the RAs and abilities your other classes have to sacrifice to create it. And Sorcs can lose Bolt Range Mezz, but get AOE Stun, Instant Stun, Instant AOE Stun, Instant Mez, and Instant AOE Mez to comp.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I spend about the same time on each realm lately and i could easily narrow down several classes on each realm that continuously gripe and moan about the same crap. Each realm has their champions.. each realm has their whiners. Each realm has a class that dominates others in some form or fashion. Then you have your truly "pro" players. Those who excel at any class for some reason or another. Maybe they understand game mechanics better than any. Maybe the cheat better and never get caught. In the end, i wish people would enjoy the game much better. At this rate, people would rather work 12 hours a day digging ditches. Ive hear less whining from people ive seen do that...
So I never said lets take away anything that makes alb alb, I am saying that non realm spec abilities(i.e. climb walls, and ST) need to be given equally or not given at all
Why? Apologies for being blunt, but I think you're splitting arbitrary hairs just because they favor Mid in the moment. What IS a non realm spec ability, anyway, and what makes climb walls and ST so special other than they're perceived to be something Mid deserves, just because?
Non-realm spec abilities, how about charge (Mid has 3)? How about spread heals (Mid has 2)? How about Bolts? (Mid has 5)? How about AOE stun? How about Heal Buffs (Alb has 0)? And this isn't even going into things that are a class of their own (Sham buffs/debuffs), or where Mid has superior versions (Sham hybrid heal in damage line, BD pets, Healer stun), or where Mid has things better positioned (AF debuff, Seer baselines, even Runie DD/Debuff debuffs for a Mid primary damage type, etc).
And because Mid has one less class it means 20% of your classes have Charge (for Alb/Hib it's 16%), 13% have Spread Heal (6% for Alb/Hib), 20% have bolts (6%).
And you say "I never said lets away anything that makes Alb Alb", yet that's exactly what has happened.
Theurgists used to be an Alb advantage. Confuse cast time was lowered to 2.5s and handed out to more classes, and more fears were thrown into the game. A PBAE confuse was added to Skalds. They've become much more manageable.
Bolt range mez is nice but it's inferior to a Healer's CC Kit. Sorc mez damp was literally stolen from Sorcs and given to Bards.
Skalds even got Minstrel's health buffer, which Mids have complained about for decades. They got their DD buffed. Their DD has a power heal, which recharges faster than a Reaver's, not even to mention the fact that Reavers are less of a support class, so power heal makes even less sense on them. Minstrels got nothing of the Skald's.
Spec AF? Given to Healers, and to compound things, a baseline stacking +25 AF was added to SMs, and Chanters can potentially get a spammable, 4000 range, 30s duration +300 AF buff. Granted, Alb got celerity, but they're worse versions of it on the least compatible classes compared to Mid (Minstrel is a hard cast on a hybrid and doesn't affect pets, Paladin is short range)
Hunters used to have faster bows and the shortest range. Now they're on par with Scouts, but keep their pets and higher melee WS table.
Paladins and Armsmen used to get slight growth rate advantages for needing to double spec. Defender's Rage and many others got nerfed for not much justification.
Reaver styles? Cobra and Levi were nerfed. H2H and Scythe are still tops, on classes with significantly higher WS tables.
Necros have been turned into a fairly standard caster class. And even AF debuff was stolen and given to Warlocks and Animists, who gave nothing to the Necromancer in return. Their power tap and transfer were stolen and given to Spiritmasters to shore up their weakest line. Yet Alb casters crap lines have been ignored pretty much since release.
2.5 spec on Infs? Assassins have been buffed in a way that Env is heavily favored, and Thrust has been through two or maybe three rounds of nerfs.
Now literally all Alb has is a "third stealth class" (as if that means anything - Minstrels are terrible stealthers), bolt range mezz, and Heretics (the big one), and maybe PW Necros (nerfed this patch, again). In a realm where bolt range mez is the least meaningful, because you're always going to be on the defensive avoiding interrupts since Alb's melee has the worst synergy and is the most thinly supported.
And guess what? On the front page of the forums, you have one topic per advantage someone asking to dilute (by giving to Mid - already done with climb walls) or nerf these remaining unique Alb features.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Each realm is going to advocate for their classes, period. They are going to be long convoluted posts about it...always have been, always will. BS will do what they want and implement what they want, when they want. It is what it is.
Like it or don't. Play, or don't.
You will either adapt to the changes, or you won't.
I do like the seeing the different perspectives from the players. I may not agree with anything, and to some extent, I can see the points of some...but it is nice to see people being <somewhat> civil about it.
The main criticism is Mid receiving (hardly arguable) an over-all buff in this recent patch yet still finding plenty of room to complain.
It get's old after a while. I mean the official forums were up for what, 2 days and the infamous "Healer's need DPS" thread was created?
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
This is not objectively true. Feel free to strain through the forum posts if you like, I'm sure you'll find some realms complain more than others, and some are more vociferous and incisive in their complaints (strategically targeting specific abilities and campaigning on certain "platforms"). Also note the history of balance changes.
Likewise, realm balance matters. We can't resort to "all realms advocate for their classes." This is fallacy - some classes need more advocacy than others, and the evidence and support should lie in the debate, not surface-level platitudes or essentially meme-like political campaigning, that is unfair and unhelpful to designers/devs.
I argue that Mid entitlement has significantly dragged down the quality of game balance and the community as a whole, and it needs to face some pushback if we're want to make the F2P transition successful.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I agree with everything on this thread except the "Minstrels are terrible stealthers" comment. A well played minstrel will turn the tide in a stealther battle. Stun, mez, SoS, and Ameliorating melodies are HUGE in a fight when the other 2 realms don't have access. Not that I'm asking for minstrels to not be able to stealth. They have their disadvantage in moving so slowly while stealthed and scout is the lowest producing ranged stealther for sure which helps to equalize that.
I do also agree with @Jak that Mids are not the only ones complaining. I've seen it from all sides, but the sheer amount of complaining of the Mids on the Savage/climb wall change is mind blowing since they have been complaining about a 3rd wall climber forever, get it, and yet still whine because they can't get wall climb AND maintain an optimum spec. It's like complaining about not having food and then complaining because I got a hamburger instead of lobster. Be happy you got something.
Maybe this is my problem, but I never take stealth battles seriously as balance considerations. I feel like other than being a tiny subset of PVP, they have no real impact on RvR in the broad sense other than being extremely frustrating for almost everyone involved. I've always believed stealth zergs should be stamped out of the game by integrating stealthers even more obviously into visible groups, while providing rewards for clever use of stealth and punishments for having masses of stealthers clumped together.
That said, since Archers and Assassins were buffed I think there's a definite change in the calculus of whether you want a Minstrel or another class in its place. AM is big, but mostly if the enemy group is not assisting (easy enough with archers), or can't (by kiting - not that it's easy to kite arrows). If anything Warguard is the big one, but a Scout/Inf in the Minst's place would have something to offer as well.
Likewise, with the proliferation of pots and heal procs, mez poison and disease spam, the Minstrel's support abilities wane by comparison, and now with procs the way they are, the Minstrel's game-worst melee DPS (tied with Bards since they got a second DD) is almost a liability. You miss much more and thus get fewer uber procs off, and when you do hit the damage is so underwhelming that you risk shooting yourself in the foot by triggering an heal/hot proc that erases or surpasses your damage in the first place.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
In fact I think acknowledging the things that have been done to mitigate x y or z inbalance probably does more than simply make the devs or population across the realm isle understand that you are trying to have a rational discussion, but it also probably allows us as posters to look at things more rationally which should improve our argument, or if there is no serious issue, allow us to gracefully acknowledge that.
Also, just want to stress again that I (unlike many others here) am not asking for any change to minstrils, I was just commenting on your post @Ylazul.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I think I just have an issue with stealth groups. The potential is there, but I don't believe they've actually won relics or keep fights before. It's rather just a game of being able to call as many stealthers to a place as you can and getting the cheapest, quickest kills on solos and stragglers.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I mainly play in stealth, when we don’t have a minni we get one. Not for anything but mez/am/sos/speed. Those 4 things make survival an occurrence that is most desirable.
I see where assassins got a buff but where exactly did archers get that same said buff, no one asked for half of the archery shots, I dont even have half of them on my bar. Imo we as archers got nerfed, and have been easy killings for most classes except for one. Guess what one..
Like @RonELuvv said they/group sacrifice said infil/scout for those exact aspects of said class. Lets be honest for a minute here, how many archers do you have issues killing... None. Its the grouped aspect of said class assisting jusr like tank or nook train, just you cannot see it until its to late. That is the only advantage I see. Other than that archers are the easiest class to kill on any class anywhere.
GL
That does not help with the "constructive" debate either.
And it is always best not to take quotes out of context.
With regards to objectivity, that is subjective.
If I'm not mistaken, Rangers and Hunters got additional range, and it was a DPS/proc boost to Archers, with some useful shots thrown in.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I was actually thinking of when I first came back and was running with you guys. I think it was me, you, phat, and either rob or damien but with the 4 of us (myself being super low RR on the scout at the time) and we killed an 8 man of mid stealth just due to the cc and other accessories that phat brought us on the mini. It was also LA so we can take it with a grain of salt.
In regards to your post about archers, I do like some of what the new archery brings, but I as well would much rather go back to old archery as opposed to the new one. It was much easier and I loved being able to pre-pull my crit shots and so when an assassin or anyone got in range I could immediately shoot them. With as fast as sin's move now (as well as mount/speed stones on non-speed classes) when you pull a crit shot your lucky to have it go off before they are out of range. However, you take the bad with the good, and like you said, its not going to change back so I just adapt and learn to roll with it.
This.
Not sure how it could have been tested with the drop turn around time.
As I have said before; BS will drop in a patch that they want. Period. Adapt and move on, or don't play.
We had what, 3+ days between 1.125 C announcement and release of 1.125 live? Sure that's not an abundant amount of time but surely it's well within reasonable limits to acquire 3-4 hours of testing. I think Muy spent more time posting hypothetical statements on the officials then that.
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I mean really, it's kind of a moot point. The goal of wall climbers isn't to run the ramparts and wtf power-own every class up there (apparently what the Mids are requesting). It's to interrupt and force enemies to move away from LoS on the walls.
GIVE ME DATA. How much dps do you lose from 44h2h/2h to 43h2h/2h??? Either spec is over +51 composite unless you're rr1 with no +skill and in which case you shouldn't be wall climbing to begin with.
How much % chance do you lose for triple and quad hits?
If the argument is 49/50 h2h/2h then I pose the same question.
How much weapon skill do you lose, how much damage do you lose, what percentage of triple/quad chance do you lose?
Even if (hypothetically) you're sacrificing 100 dps by dropping to 43 h2h/2h is it really that inconvenient to obtain climb walls?
I've fought plenty of 2h savages that just destroy people's faces so I don't want to hear that 2h is unusable either.
I don't want to read paper daoc "what-if" factors, I want to see people actually spec'ing 50 savagery, dropping h2h/2h and parry to obtain climb walls and pumping out the worse damage in daoc history because they had to give up 1 style and between 1 and 6 levels of weapon line because that's essentially what is being claimed here.
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
Exactly! The option is there. Do what you want with it, but stop the complaints. I don't play savage, but it seems pretty simple to me. If you plan to solo or small man you go with the higher weapon spec. If you want to run with the zerg and you are going to be going after keeps then lower the weapon spec and get climb walls. If you want both then be prepared to respec alot.
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
i did not fail to notice that during the Anna BG, the keeps that we assaulted, the walls were swamped by ZERO savages. as a matter of fact, there was not a single savage in the BG. i still have to see a savage climb a wall in a zerg or a fg action. for all purpose, mid didn't gain a climb wall class due to how retarded you have to spec to get climb walls on a savage.
you are now limited to one respec a day i believe ?
you said it all there, you don't play a savage. you have no clue about how the class works. you only remember the times your caster who's shield were down, or when you got AF debuffed died in 2 seconds when a savage got a lot of luck with multiple hits and crits. you don't remember all the times you got hit 3 times in a row with 1 attack and the savage did crap damage.
i lose 79 weaponskill going from 50+23 to 43+23 weaponskill
it's not just losing triple and quad hits, it's also losing double hits.
i know maybe one or two savages who specced 44 h2h/ 49 savagery and you've never heard about them. standard savage spec, be it for solo, small man, fg or zerg is 50 h2h / 40 savagery, and even after the last savage nerf where they increased the health cost for the lower tier buffs to always be 5 % per buff, savages stayed 40 savagery. (that was a bad nerf already to the 50 / 40 spec and it's devasting on lower level savages during leveling and in the BGS)
i can't actually do a roughly fair test due to weapon procs (AF debuff, 2 ABS debuffs, slash debuff) which modify my damage so much that it fucks up test results without making a test only template when it comes to damage output. but enough tests have been done, amongst others by me, and have been published to show the increase in doing more than one hit by increasing h2h skill.
and you can't test things like miss / getting evaded, parried, blocked on the level 50 dummy. on a REAL test against a player, the targets WS, evade, parry, block rate will affect the outcome also. and also, lol, your loss in con on weapon will affect damage and loss in the targets los in con on armour .... doing multiple 100+ rounds of attacks with different specs will make you lose con on those in the process.
the main thins is doing less attacks and gett more misses, being parried, blocked and evaded more.
you think that from having no frontal, evade based, parry based stun, and having a side positional 9 sec side follow up and a 4 sec rear stun to go to only have a 4 sec back stun is a minor thing ? and its 79 WS on a the lowest weaponskill light tank by far.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
it's also different from vamps that get it without price to pay and mincers (which imho also should get it for free)
i already made a post about that, in short
1) the 4 % melee buff is negated by the damage you do less due to lower WS and all it's side effects on damage output, reduced chance to do more than one hit, more misses, getting evaded / parried / blocked more.
2) melee resist+ caps at 25%. an item based buff+ to melee resist doesn't add anything over 25%. 21 % from yellow buffs + item based charge still caps at 25 %
3) lowering your WS vs a medium or high WS target will reduce your chance to evade/parry.
For the love of god please stop posting on official forums that the best spec for savage is 50 h2h because it makes me want to not want to live on this planet anymore...
i can quote the figures i have for 50 + 22, i would need to do a new run at 43 + 23 vs 50+23 tomorrow if i find time. that stuff is time consuming considering you need hundreds of attacks on each spec to minimize variance by RNG.
someone did it before, i would need to google to find those test results.
like i said before in this thread, i don't even have the follow ups to the evade and parry reactionaries on my bars due to the extreme low chances of actually doing the full chain. same of all the other high rank savages i speak to.
try getting a frontal 3 chain of on a high rank hero, armsman, merc, bm or ... it doesn't happen when you have upto 500 less weaponskill.
and i'm a zerger ? when was the last time you saw my savage in a zerg ? 48 million rp ago ... i haven't played my savage in a zerg since dinging rr 12. sure, you'll see my warlock in a zerg. you won't see my savage outside of fg, small man or solo. maybe if they wouldn't have put the retarded 50 savagery requirement for climb walls on savages, then you might see my savage again in zerg.
More curious about what % of damage loss you're netting. I remember seeing a Sav 1/2/3/4x hit table and it didn't seem like one spec point is a catastrophic loss, probably around 3-4% fewer hits per X rounds.
So if you want to run around on top of keeps killing people it'll cost something.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
My main toon is a ranger. There are things I have to sacrifice in my spec to get other things I use more. If I ran with the stealth zerg I would spec my ranger differently than now while I run mainly solo and occasionally in some smallman. All classes are this way. Why should your class be different?
Mids wanted another climb wall. You got it. Use it or don't but stop qq'ing about having to alter your spec for it. @John_Broadsword heard your complaints and said this was as intended. Move on.