Runemaster ST - strongly disagree with adding a second ST class on Midgard.
We have heard the arguments pro from many passionate Mid players. Here are my arguments con -
My understanding was that Mid did not get a 2nd ST because they are of course the only realm with an AOE stun (and Instant AOE stun) one that lasts 10 seconds at that. "They get it so we should too" arguments are always extremely selective. Major advantages in Midgard would be for example having "free" 2H spec, higher weaponskill tables (Warrior, Skald, Hunter over their counterparts), AOE Stun and generally strong, condensed specs that allow every class an option to fit well in groups.
I'm opposed to granting greater RA access in principle, but AE stun and ST synergize too strongly to be ignored as a factor. Specially, the combination of AOE Stun + ST is effectively a death sentence for anyone without Purge or SoS up. It's tolerable now because it's so rare, but Runemasters fit perfectly into bomb groups.
As much as I enjoyed STing into my Healer's AOE stun and vice versa, I highly doubt that the 15-20 out of 25-30 people we would kill thought it was that fun.
To predict and rebut any counter arguments, the realms are not perfectly mirrored. If Mid is to get a second ST, it might be time to consider giving Smite Clerics AOE stun. A rarer spec for Clerics, so it won't be as effective as the Mid version, but fitting. Hibernia's version of the stun advantage of course stands out in their 3 core caster classes, particularly in keep sieges. Minstrel instant stun has impactful niche uses, but it is not particularly powerful anywhere outside of small man stealth.
My understanding was that Mid did not get a 2nd ST because they are of course the only realm with an AOE stun (and Instant AOE stun) one that lasts 10 seconds at that. "They get it so we should too" arguments are always extremely selective. Major advantages in Midgard would be for example having "free" 2H spec, higher weaponskill tables (Warrior, Skald, Hunter over their counterparts), AOE Stun and generally strong, condensed specs that allow every class an option to fit well in groups.
I'm opposed to granting greater RA access in principle, but AE stun and ST synergize too strongly to be ignored as a factor. Specially, the combination of AOE Stun + ST is effectively a death sentence for anyone without Purge or SoS up. It's tolerable now because it's so rare, but Runemasters fit perfectly into bomb groups.
As much as I enjoyed STing into my Healer's AOE stun and vice versa, I highly doubt that the 15-20 out of 25-30 people we would kill thought it was that fun.
To predict and rebut any counter arguments, the realms are not perfectly mirrored. If Mid is to get a second ST, it might be time to consider giving Smite Clerics AOE stun. A rarer spec for Clerics, so it won't be as effective as the Mid version, but fitting. Hibernia's version of the stun advantage of course stands out in their 3 core caster classes, particularly in keep sieges. Minstrel instant stun has impactful niche uses, but it is not particularly powerful anywhere outside of small man stealth.
Post edited by Ylazul on
Minstrel. Thane, Druid
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
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Perhaps bumping up other active RAs to meet the standard of ST, BOF, BA, PR, SOS, etc would make access to ST less of an issue.
So I say the change to TWF is a move in the right direction. Perhaps the same could be done for VP and Ichor.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Minis should get instant amnesia.
RMs should lose volcanic pillar.
Clerics should get instant AOE stun.
Realm equality!
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AoE stun and stun immunity reset in the same RA is just silly imo.
As a player with multiple healers / clerics / druids / bards ( i like support :P ) for all i care you can remove AoE stun too and give me something more fun in return. ( DoT / Nuke / instant amnesia / hammer spec line / pet / whatever lol )
Many times with det and stuff stun is just a minor speedbump anyway.
That have to be specced.
Ok so then there is no issue giving to smite clerics who would also have to spec for it.
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If you're suggesting that as a counter to my comment then:
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Almost every Mid group has a Pac Healer. If added to Smite, it would still be fairly rare in Alb.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Thank you.
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@John_Broadsword please don't listen to these Albs. They've always been about having the most garbage over everyone else. Look at Heretics...man those will be a stupid class in a Lord's room now
@Tanky Mids what to be equal than fine, lets be equal.
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Not sure if superior troll or MRDD... I think your entire posting existence, aside from today, has consisted of some form of complaint lol.
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Ride the sled down this slope.. whats next 2 outta 3 alb and mid caster classes with baseline stun? No one wants WoW.
Ive been back playing live for @ 2 years now and when i started back there were massive changes compared to when i quit. Guess what?, even those massive changes have been rolled back and toned down. I play all 3 realms fairly equally. Some times i run with the zerg, sometimes i run from the zerg, sometimes i 8 man, some times i small man, duo , or solo. There are changes that are going to affect everyone.
One of three things will happen.
1. People will acclimate and adapt
2. People will quit
3. People will not change anything, but they will continue to gripe and complain
Originally when the Hunter RR5 change happened, i was pissed. I didnt play my hunter for 5 or 6 months. No skin off my back. I played something different. I decided to adapt. I couldve decided to retire him completely. I still play sniper spec and the rr5 while i admit is powerful, does not lend itself to my playstyle.
Bottom line is that if it affects subscriptions, things will get modified. Give it time :-)
Mid would need a second ST class if Alb got AOE stun and a second ST. "They got one so that means we should too ... but everything we have is ours and should be ours alone" is 15 year old aged Mid whine by now, and it's getting quite stale. I'm choosing this time to take a stand against something that's been ruining game balance for years.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Since it's so inconsequential, I'm sure you wouldn't mind it being given to Clerics.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Friars, which have been essentially relegated into a Healing class, was a sub-optimal choice for Albs who already have the worst Stun and AOE damage options.
But I think this is all pointing at needing a RA review for weak or underperforming RAs more than anything.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
So give clerics an ae stun. But then give healers a dd spell
Pac is better than Smite even if Smite were to get a DD. Smite's DD is mirrored in Shaman's DoT and DZ baseline combo which are as good or better than full-caster spec equivalents.
And AOE Stun is outright better than ST outside of solo, I'm guessing. It's more game-changing, IMO
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Mauler
Yes, mine is consistently well maintained and well supported.
That's from my personal experience. I've killed/bombed far more people with AOE stun than I've even seen it done by ST anywhere. ST is good for locking down chokes or hitting clumps in keeps and other siege situations, as well as stun-locking 1vx. AOE stun is good for keeps and for bombing ... and PVE/power leveling, I guess.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Possibly. Raising the AE snare duration makes an already strong ability a death sentence in zergs. At most I think the tick durations should have been upped from 3 to 4 .
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
checkmate
"So if I palyed my Friar with ST that's ok, but if I play my Minstrel it's not?"
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
If Nate wasn’t the bg leader I’d retemp my tic and run in alb again
Yeah I play a tic, and it was a powerful class even on release. On par with Bains, Healers, Shaman, Sorcs, etc. But there have just been more and more buffs to range, duration, survivability, etc. At this point a lot of it is like window dressing because adding 70 AF to a class that already had around 1050 isn't going to be a huge deal, but still. It might benefit lower Enh specced Heretics that are suffering.
But the increased duration on the AOE Snare might be a few seconds too much. Guess I will have to see if they're an answer to Warlocks or BDs or Thanes getting a 214 delve 1750 range nuke at 2.4s ... I do like that pretty much every single class I'm playing on all three realms is getting buffed though, lol.
Heretic, BD, Animist
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Mauler
Luckily we'll have the eye in the sky to track the bombardment of ST's over the next 2-3 weeks
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The Minstrel/ST option is significantly more powerful when combined with Phase Shift (for busting through a choke or the general get out of jail I timed that wrong card), and instant pbaoe mez, than it is for any class that currently has it and which to do the things like disrupt an enemy choke point, need put the toon in significant danger. Not so for Minstrels. [Run to choke point, then quickly fire r5 pbaoe mez/ST/PS+collect] You could even get crazy and throw a SOS 1 or a purge 2 if you simply cant run your finger over your keyboard in less than a second. There won't be a good counter to a well deployed minstrel as zephyr doesn't take hold for the short time it would take to pull off a mez/st bomb.
I'll go ahead and take the contrary that if Minstrels get ST so should Skalds and Bards, and yeah as is stated many times here RM's don't need it (but neither do Minstrels). I think it also is going to push Minstrels over the top for small man/solo on the 2-3 well played Minstrels out there.
Minstrels did not gain ST with the Live patch. Instead, they received Ichor which was removed from Heretics. ST has been given to Heretics.
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Nice. I think that's a much better RA pairing (I'd still be down for both Heretics and RM's to not get ST) but I haven't heard any hibs complaining of either, so...
Never mind that they aren't saying anything about having 2 spread heals while the other realms have 1, 2 heal buffs when the others have 0 and 1, 3 charge classes while the others have 2 ...
Realm "homogenization" should stop going just one way. The reason why Albs got a 2nd ST was because Friars are usually healers and are poorly positioned and equipped to drop STs, and probably because Alb has the worst stun of the three realms in RvR (everything except small man stealth grouping).
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Mauler
Thank you for pointing out the facts here while overshadowing its impact. I played my heretic day 1 of catacombs release. I know how powerful they were and how much more powerful they've become with the tic love patch recently. So a class with 1050 AF, now close to 1100 AF, coupled with 33% absord, and PD9, and RR5...you don't see this as remotely OP? Throw in ST now and the snare.
You keep mentioning thanes like it matters compared to what Heretic's just got. We got a boost to a nuke and a nerf to our chain lightning. Big deal.
Never got hit by a healer or shaman for 8xx damage 4 times in a row.
I'm also sure you've never been chain CC'ed for 2 minutes straight by a Smite Cleric.
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Mauler
A Tic that is getting melee'd isn't casting, and it's casting that gives Tics all their power. Otherwise they're just Reavers-lite with no spike potential, capable only of grinding down low DPS melee 1v1. That's probably why few Tics take PD9, because it's overkill.
As for Chain Lightning, no matter what has happened to SC it's still a line that any DPS caster would kill for (other than Warlocks, maybe). For a realm like Mid which is already supreme in insta/unavoidable interrupts, Thane spam regularly gets BGs wiped. Heretics are on the other side of that equation, but the way Heretic damage is set up, and for the way the realms are stacked, it's a lot less disruptive and damaging than that of Thanes. And that's speaking for a class that is Alb's sole saving grace now.
I don't know if you were around for it but the whole reason why Mids and Hibs nerfwhined Smite Clerics into an unplayable mess for years was because they called them "Wizards in Chain" for having a 225 damage, 4s cast nuke. They got it nerfed to 176/4 for years.
So imagine what a joke it is for me to hear someone dismiss 214/2.4 from 1700 range on not only a chain class but a 2.0 chain class with a large shield, weapon styles, and parry.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I'm dismissing nothing. Yes its a boost as I stated, but a small nerf to CL as well. You (according to your sig) have these toons in question as do I...so you should see how OP a tic can be now. Highest AF and absorb in the game (Maulers equal the absorb part). Furthermore, Thanes AOE is 1600 range, as to a Tics aoe at 1750...so theoretically, a Tic should be interrupting the Thane before he can start his caste...especially with a 2.0 caste speed.
I don't recall the smite clerics before NF but I do recall the patch that boosted Smite that also healed as a secondary component. Of course that was nerfed some time later.
You mistaken my points as whines when I'm calling it natural balance. I'm not for the savage climb walls spec nor the RM getting ST. If you ask me, 1 ST per realm, done. But this heretic patch is really out of hand when you consider all the toys they have access to.
More support/caster in Mid than not, has some kind of instant interrupt or CC or some other ass-pull way to recover from setbacks. Warlocks, BDs, Shamans, Healers. SMs can pull some casts out with pet intercepts if the interrupt is melee. Only Runies get truly screwed by interrupts like all Alb casters and Healers do. Unless the Albs are stacked with Tics Mid always turns the tide on interrupts, and Thanes are just dumping oil over the metaphorical grease fire.
" I'm not for the savage climb walls spec nor the RM getting ST. If you ask me, 1 ST per realm, done. But this heretic patch is really out of hand when you consider all the toys they have access to."
I agree with you in theory. But really, they're Albs only clear advantage now. I'd be opposed to it if Alb didn't systematically have every single advantage stripped, diluted, nerfed, homogenized, or outright stolen from it (I'm looking at Mez Damp and Power Tap here).
So I'm fine with Heretics picking up the slack, because it's better than nothing.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
To be fair, different jobs. That's the Sorcs job. Apples to Oranges.
If you replaced Stormcalling with any version of Smite Thanes would all quit.
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Mauler