I'm not exactly sure why Climb Walls has to be specced. If the idea is that you have to trade the ability for damage or utility then why have Vamps been allowed to have it for free so long? I don't think the ability is overpowered on its current and proposed classes. Make it free for them.
Edit: Or just remove it from Vamps and Minstrels. Keep it only on heavy tanks and assassins.
Post edited by Tyrantanic on
"The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
I'm not exactly sure why Climb Walls has to be specced. If the idea is that you have to trade the ability for damage or utility then why have Vamps been allowed to have it for free so long? I don't think the ability is overpowered on its current and proposed classes. Make it free for them.
Edit: Or just remove it from Vamps and Minstrels. Keep it only on heavy tanks and assassins.
Or what do heavy Tanks give up being the hardest class in game to kill?
@Ylazul just so you know, aoe stun from a healer will give immunity, and ST provides no immunity. To compare the two abilities is stupid. If you want to go on about your thoughts maybe we can talk broadsword into giving immunity to static tempest after you ger stunned the first time. That would be fair accross the board. @Carol_Broadsword@John_Broadsword@Broadsword
While its appreciated that savages get climb walls ,maybe putting it at 49 spec instead of 50 would have been better? I dont see it getting specced for with it being that high in savagery seeing how savages work currently.
That's exactly the point .
"Optimally" specced Minstrels don't have climb-walls either.
So, 25 in stealth equates to 50 in savagery? Answers a lot of questions
Yes Savagery is a far better line than Minstrel stealth.
Let me know what Minstrel spec can reach Savage DPS. Thank you.
@Ylazul just so you know, aoe stun from a healer will give immunity, and ST provides no immunity. To compare the two abilities is stupid. If you want to go on about your thoughts maybe we can talk broadsword into giving immunity to static tempest after you ger stunned the first time. That would be fair accross the board. @Carol_Broadsword@John_Broadsword@Broadsword
I've played Healer for about a million RP back when a million RP meant something, yes I know that. But ST strips immunity, including that from AE Stun, unless I've been hallucinating.
While its appreciated that savages get climb walls ,maybe putting it at 49 spec instead of 50 would have been better? I dont see it getting specced for with it being that high in savagery seeing how savages work currently.
That's exactly the point .
"Optimally" specced Minstrels don't have climb-walls either.
So, 25 in stealth equates to 50 in savagery? Answers a lot of questions
Yes Savagery is a far better line than Minstrel stealth.
Let me know what Minstrel spec can reach Savage DPS. Thank you.
It's not a dps comparison, it's a wall climbing comparison......which is based on mythical specs to validate changes...is there a mini that can't climb walls, and will there be a savage that decides it's worth it --- not sure why, additionally, it is only compared to a mini <shrug>
Can a Savage charm orange and sometimes red buffed up pets? So to answer your question, yes mins can easily equal savages dps when you consider a pet and they give up nothing to get it
Can a Savage charm orange and sometimes red buffed up pets? So to answer your question, yes mins can easily equal savages dps when you consider a pet and they give up nothing to get it
While its appreciated that savages get climb walls ,maybe putting it at 49 spec instead of 50 would have been better? I dont see it getting specced for with it being that high in savagery seeing how savages work currently.
That's exactly the point .
"Optimally" specced Minstrels don't have climb-walls either.
Solid rationale and I agree.
On another issue, I have qualms about adding a second ST to Midgard. Even if no Thanes were to spec it, Midgard would still be the premier realm when it comes to AOE stuns. In my experience playing, AOE Stun has been far deadlier than any ST (max level or not) I have seen placed, other than the ones I've personally witnessed being layered on top of a Healer AOE Stun to stun-lock crowds, even through Purge 1s, for 10+ seconds (it would be longer if we didn't kill them first).
Considering the synergy, the argument that Midgard must have a second ST simply because Albs do, is imo not substantive. It would be akin to Albs arguing that they need an AOE Stun simply because Mid has one, which is invalid in a game that benefits from not having exact mirrors on all sides.
I have issues about Albion having bolt range mezz, and Hibernia having the ability to cast 1,000 shrooms...
<eyeroll> at your complaint about AOE stun. You're grasping at straws dude. Just stop.
No, pets can warp through enemy doors, several sets actually and will chase an enemy down through it all. Next....
This... Really wish we could get pets through walls/doors fixed.
This is addressed in 1.125.
Keep Pet Changes
Added a safeguard to New Frontiers and Battleground keeps that causes enemy-realm pets to be severed from their owners when venturing into ground-floor of the inner-keep structures while the inner-keep door is still closed.
Normal controlled pets and all fire-and-forget pets are killed as a result of this severing.
Charmed pets have their charm removed and revert to normal monsters.
This also affects battleground keeps from Killaloe, the lowest level battleground with an inner-keep, to Cathal Valley, which has this safeguard set over its entire courtyard.
Crystal Titan, Battlewarder, and Animist ground-targeted pets are immediately killed when cast on an enemy keep roof when the caster is not on the roof themselves.
<eyeroll> at your complaint about AOE stun. You're grasping at straws dude. Just stop.
Aged Mid Whine. "We should get everything Albs and Hibs do, but it's not fair if you give them our abilities!"
what is all the albs said when it was going to minstrels, it is what it is now accept and move on. this is going to live you can either work around it or quit
<eyeroll> at your complaint about AOE stun. You're grasping at straws dude. Just stop.
Aged Mid Whine. "We should get everything Albs and Hibs do, but it's not fair if you give them our abilities!"
what is all the albs said when it was going to minstrels, it is what it is now accept and move on. this is going to live you can either work around it or quit
I'm pretty sure Mids will just keep crying. If you don't hold the line the train will just keep rolling.
no of course not but you keep claiming abilities.
And either way certain realm abilities should be equal between the realms [edited].
Because you say so, certain realm abilities should be equal between realms. No balance or reasoning or data, but because Juzzo and other Mids think it should be that way.
Oh an we can't point out the obvious fact that AE stun and ST have synergy, Mids think it's fair, so it is.
that's very hard to do with the decision making of BS....
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
i can actually understand the warlock nerf. insta dot, uninteruptable dot, uninteruptable dot, qcast dot is a killer in one vs one, outside of that ... it's no big deal.
for most part it means that locks will never see their doom DD hit... i guess that's why they gave warlock concentration.. to waste points on it so they can now cast insta dot, qcast dot, uninteruptable dot, use concentration, use last dot... i guess people don't have realized what BS actually did there
Post edited by Carol_Broadsword on
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Are mids complaining about having to cast a spell like anyone else?
you are just ...
the whole normal spell / secondary spell is just the mechanic of locks. you know of any pure DD caster that has at best a 199 delve nuke with no debuff ? welcome to warlocks. we never complained about that because we had other advantages due to the secondary spell mechanic but that advantage is being eroded away atm.
do you have any idea what warlocks were 13 years ago ?
they were basically smash your head into the keyboard and then /rofl at dead targets. when they changed them 5-6 years ago, i thought they were fine, now they are nerfing them still left and right.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
i don't think that until me and smeger continued playing warlocks after the big nerf that anyone even payed attention to warlocks anymore.
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
[ you know of any pure DD caster that has at best a 199 delve nuke with no debuff ? welcome to warlocks.
Necromancers, Sorcs, Cabalists. Air Theurg has one DD. I guess Alb only has one "pure DD caster" I'm also not aware of any other non-healer class that has Spread Heal, or any primary healers that can potentially kill a Fury tank with four button presses.
And by "199 nuke" you mean one that casts at 2.6 seconds and requires only level 46 ... which does the DPS of a 214/2.8
Wow.... This is exactly why I feel sorry for BS. Every time I hear about how BS doesn't listen to the community I think of threads like this. Just take ST here. Up until recently hib had 2, mids and albs had 1. Then albs were going to get it on minstrils, after much complaining from the Albs. People threw a fit. Then it gets changed to tics, some like, some hate. Now mids complain that hibs and albs got two and they should get an extra. They do. Now people are pissed about that because they have aoe stun. Now some believe class X should have it. Others think class Y should get it. Nope, it should be all realms only have class. Nope, it should be adjusted overall......
Do you not see? Even the slightest change causes this much difference difference in opinion. BS tries to listen but then every time they do this **** happens where everyone tries to nerf the other realm or get their own lil buffs and perks.
If we're gonna do this all the way, I have some suggestions for Armsmen @beibhinn
[ you know of any pure DD caster that has at best a 199 delve nuke with no debuff ? welcome to warlocks.
Necromancers, Sorcs, Cabalists. Air Theurg has one DD. I guess Alb only has one "pure DD caster" I'm also not aware of any other non-healer class that has Spread Heal, or any primary healers that can potentially kill a Fury tank with four button presses.
And by "199 nuke" you mean one that casts at 2.6 seconds and requires only level 46 ... which does the DPS of a 214/2.8
Unfortunately for players like Muy "balance" is synonymous with "Nerfing" when it involved Mid classes. When ST was first stated to be placed on Minstrils even Albs agree'd that it'd be over the top given that Minstrils would be capable of SoS'ing/ST/PS. We agree'd it'd be over the top. Then it was placed onto Heretics. The whining continued. There was no discussion of reasoning, there was no compromise and the whining rhetoric escalated into RM's earning ST. I literally saw no reason or validation to giving RM's ST aside from the flow of complaints that were posted on the official forums.
Not only that, but Midgard earned their second wall climb class. Was their pause for celebration? NO, more whining about having to sacrifice a style to earn climb wall.
Necro's are receiving another nerf, how many threads have we seen dedicated to necromancers? Food for thought.
Cool, we made this topic into an Alb vs Mid hate train. At this point we can throw out any decent discussion.
At least its informative on peoples personal agendas wrapped in so called facts on both sides. I think if we act like this, degrading topics into who hates who and why it's perfectly reasonable for Broadsword to don't even consider our feedback.
Maybe give personal feedback, and let them decide instead of calling out other players. It seems everyone enjoy acting the "balance police" for no reason. Let Albs cry, let Mids cry, who cares, it's not our job to decide if we can't even comment on people's suggestions without hatred. I think its possible to disagree on some changes without personal attacks, or we going to end up making Carol remind us every day to keep it civil. We shall point our feedback to Broadsword, not at each other.
The patch is out, let's see if it really destroys balance in any way, and if so, write some decent feedback after that instead, this has no purpose now.
Mids got the train rolling, not anyone else. I posted well-reasoned posts and did nothing to provoke anyone, but got nothing but ad hominems and other garbage arguments in return.
I almost feel bad for contributing to the politics, but seeing [removed] posts is gratifying. Sometimes you just have to force the issue and stop being polite to keep an out of control faction from taking all the oxygen in the room.
Question...just to be clear, race respecs have to be the ones from the poll we took awhile back correct? Or is it open for characters to choose any race they want? For example, respeccing my thane to koby?
Question...just to be clear, race respecs have to be the ones from the poll we took awhile back correct? Or is it open for characters to choose any race they want? For example, respeccing my thane to koby?
No, only races available to the actual class are options for race respeccing.
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Comments
Edit: Or just remove it from Vamps and Minstrels. Keep it only on heavy tanks and assassins.
"The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
"Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
Or what do heavy Tanks give up being the hardest class in game to kill?
Yes Savagery is a far better line than Minstrel stealth.
Let me know what Minstrel spec can reach Savage DPS. Thank you.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I've played Healer for about a million RP back when a million RP meant something, yes I know that. But ST strips immunity, including that from AE Stun, unless I've been hallucinating.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
It's not a dps comparison, it's a wall climbing comparison......which is based on mythical specs to validate changes...is there a mini that can't climb walls, and will there be a savage that decides it's worth it --- not sure why, additionally, it is only compared to a mini <shrug>
Except pets can't climb walls.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
This... Really wish we could get pets through walls/doors fixed.
https://daocutils.com/chimp/zzx
My YouTube channel
<Asatruar>
I have issues about Albion having bolt range mezz, and Hibernia having the ability to cast 1,000 shrooms...
<eyeroll> at your complaint about AOE stun. You're grasping at straws dude. Just stop.
This is addressed in 1.125.
Broadsword Online Games
Aged Mid Whine. "We should get everything Albs and Hibs do, but it's not fair if you give them our abilities!"
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
I was never on that bandwagon.. Nice try.
A 1% chance of it happening =/= a feature. Next.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
what is all the albs said when it was going to minstrels, it is what it is now accept and move on. this is going to live you can either work around it or quit
I'm pretty sure Mids will just keep crying. If you don't hold the line the train will just keep rolling.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Broadsword Online Games
not about abilities about REALM ABILITIES.
There's no rule that RAs have to be mirrored.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
And either way certain realm abilities should be equal between the realms [edited].
Because you say so, certain realm abilities should be equal between realms. No balance or reasoning or data, but because Juzzo and other Mids think it should be that way.
Oh an we can't point out the obvious fact that AE stun and ST have synergy, Mids think it's fair, so it is.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
that's very hard to do with the decision making of BS....
insane, isn't it ?
did they even listen to feedback ?
i can actually understand the warlock nerf. insta dot, uninteruptable dot, uninteruptable dot, qcast dot is a killer in one vs one, outside of that ... it's no big deal.
for most part it means that locks will never see their doom DD hit... i guess that's why they gave warlock concentration.. to waste points on it so they can now cast insta dot, qcast dot, uninteruptable dot, use concentration, use last dot... i guess people don't have realized what BS actually did there
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
you are just ...
the whole normal spell / secondary spell is just the mechanic of locks. you know of any pure DD caster that has at best a 199 delve nuke with no debuff ? welcome to warlocks. we never complained about that because we had other advantages due to the secondary spell mechanic but that advantage is being eroded away atm.
do you have any idea what warlocks were 13 years ago ?
they were basically smash your head into the keyboard and then /rofl at dead targets. when they changed them 5-6 years ago, i thought they were fine, now they are nerfing them still left and right.
Necromancers, Sorcs, Cabalists. Air Theurg has one DD. I guess Alb only has one "pure DD caster" I'm also not aware of any other non-healer class that has Spread Heal, or any primary healers that can potentially kill a Fury tank with four button presses.
And by "199 nuke" you mean one that casts at 2.6 seconds and requires only level 46 ... which does the DPS of a 214/2.8
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
If we're gonna do this all the way, I have some suggestions for Armsmen @beibhinn
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
Unfortunately for players like Muy "balance" is synonymous with "Nerfing" when it involved Mid classes. When ST was first stated to be placed on Minstrils even Albs agree'd that it'd be over the top given that Minstrils would be capable of SoS'ing/ST/PS. We agree'd it'd be over the top. Then it was placed onto Heretics. The whining continued. There was no discussion of reasoning, there was no compromise and the whining rhetoric escalated into RM's earning ST. I literally saw no reason or validation to giving RM's ST aside from the flow of complaints that were posted on the official forums.
Not only that, but Midgard earned their second wall climb class. Was their pause for celebration? NO, more whining about having to sacrifice a style to earn climb wall.
Necro's are receiving another nerf, how many threads have we seen dedicated to necromancers? Food for thought.
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
At least its informative on peoples personal agendas wrapped in so called facts on both sides. I think if we act like this, degrading topics into who hates who and why it's perfectly reasonable for Broadsword to don't even consider our feedback.
Maybe give personal feedback, and let them decide instead of calling out other players. It seems everyone enjoy acting the "balance police" for no reason. Let Albs cry, let Mids cry, who cares, it's not our job to decide if we can't even comment on people's suggestions without hatred. I think its possible to disagree on some changes without personal attacks, or we going to end up making Carol remind us every day to keep it civil. We shall point our feedback to Broadsword, not at each other.
The patch is out, let's see if it really destroys balance in any way, and if so, write some decent feedback after that instead, this has no purpose now.
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
Heretic, BD, Animist
Mauler
No, only races available to the actual class are options for race respeccing.
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