Jesus the amount of stun-nuke-nuke QQ really shows you where this server has gone. Hib groups are easy to form because of the classic BDW / Fill group setup. The three support classes on Hib provide a lot of utility alone (endo, all resists, all buffs, backline peels, speed 6, bodyguard), and the Warden can play the peel tank, meaning a hib group only needs to have one DPS class that usually won't be on the train while Mid/Alb groups will run two (Skald and Minstrel are not good peel classes), while Mid doesn't get a seer class that can peel.
While Skald and Minstrel in themselves are very strong classes, and one would argue changing either of those classes would drastically change the class in other playstyles. Furthermore, hibernia tank trains can rock 4 bodyguards (Warden, VW, Hero, Champion) and still have room leftover for a charge tank (vamp or bm), without sacrificing any utlity, which is pretty devastating to any opposing tank group. Having the utility and SoS on their support/cc classes is the main factor here, not your stun-nuke-nuke everybody is complaining about.
Hib setup: Bard / Druid / Ward / 5x DPS (sometimes take 1 dps as peeler)
Now while this doesn't cause any instant game-breaking problems, it does show an issue with such small population. It's pretty clear that Hib has way more flexibility within their groups than ANY other realm.
How to fix this? Simple idea would be to move SoS away from bard and onto a non-support class in Hib, but that hardly seems fair or lore-like.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Yes that's a very logical breakdown of why hib groups are often the strongest open field 8v8 (and easiest to form).
The stun argument is more 1) zerg and 2) keep siege related (open field zerg as well) and 3)solo/small man. Hib is the strongest on a number of fronts.and it probably started with the warden buff years ago. Mid had the upper hand for the first ~9 years with celerity and LA mechanics and a very strong early years PAC spec, but Mid's singular stuff has gradually been given to the other realms, without corresponding boosts to Mid classes.
For example, citing that optimum class breakdown above, in zerg situations that bard, druid, warden is going to have more than double the healing power (especially for out of LOS heals of pac, aug, sham unless the bard is specced honestly for open field 8v8, in which case its double or just under double). If mid wants red celerity for tank groups of for the aug to be substantially better on celerity/resists than just running a skald, they have to significantly reduce the group's healing power. Wardens can give full celerity/resists and full heals, with plenty to spare for peels/shield. Enter the instant/group instant and spread heal argument (Except in this situation hibs still have the druid with exactly these same abilities AND druids can spec higher in regrowth given that wardens are already covering vs most current caster train setups on mid/alb with body/energy/spirit spell resists at 24).
Who needs red celerity though???? I don't think there is any real gap between the three realms healing classes, pertaining directly to healing. The disparity is in the utility. Mid has some pretty mean support setups (Pach/Augh/Valk/Lock is possible in one group, giving 3x spread healers and loads of instant heals) but lack the same utility in their core classes, and two realms need more core classes than other to reach less utility, it's a double edged sword.
This is a rabbit hole of a topic, as we can dive down a punch of paper daoc spec scenarios, but DAoC was not designed to be played which such a low population on a consistent basis, as now we see the cracks in the foundation.
Post edited by Dale_Perf on
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Red celerity makes a difference if you are thinking about sending your 3x 6.0 speed heros vs your 3 warriors over the wall of a keep. They can do a lot more dps after a slam than mids trying the same thing. Open field you probably have 1 2hander in the group, and the returns from yellow vs red don't counter the reduction in mending. I get that. Hibs just don't even have to think about it.
Interesting comment about how population redux has changed the landscape, hadn't thought about that.
Who tf is running a 3 warrior train for dps? Mids don't need purple celerity because their DPS classes are savage and berserker, mostly not running 2h out of maybe vendo mode. As for the keep wall scenario, Hibs already have an advantage with vamp/ns/hero climbers over warr/svg/sb...
We don't need balance changes, we need improvements to bring back population to better assess balance. Nobody is going to come back when this game has a random new ability every year that is insanely OP then nerfed a year later.
Post edited by Dale_Perf on
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Who tf is running a 3 warrior train for dps? Mids don't need purple celerity because their DPS classes are savage and berserker, mostly not running 2h out of maybe vendo mode. As for the keep wall scenario, Hibs already have an advantage with vamp/ns/hero climbers over warr/svg/sb...
We don't need balance changes, we need improvements to bring back population to better assess balance. Nobody is going to come back when this game has a random new ability every year that is insanely OP then nerfed a year later.
I have to weigh in here again to get things straight again.
All the discussions here are about zergs or well organized groups.
And you talk about getting people into the game.
NOBODY which thinks about comming to the game, gives a **** about that....
In zergs nothing matters at all.
Well organized groups have NOTHING to do with getting new players to the game.
If you want new and more population you HAVE TO think about solo....
And ONLY solo....
And as we all know in the Solo-Case (PVP) this game is a epic failure...
Though PVE is very nice i have to admit... 5555555555
Who tf is running a 3 warrior train for dps? Mids don't need purple celerity because their DPS classes are savage and berserker, mostly not running 2h out of maybe vendo mode. As for the keep wall scenario, Hibs already have an advantage with vamp/ns/hero climbers over warr/svg/sb...
We don't need balance changes, we need improvements to bring back population to better assess balance. Nobody is going to come back when this game has a random new ability every year that is insanely OP then nerfed a year later.
I have to weigh in here again to get things straight again.
All the discussions here are about zergs or well organized groups.
And you talk about getting people into the game.
NOBODY which thinks about comming to the game, gives a **** about that....
In zergs nothing matters at all.
Well organized groups have NOTHING to do with getting new players to the game.
If you want new and more population you HAVE TO think about solo....
And ONLY solo....
And as we all know in the Solo-Case (PVP) this game is a epic failure...
Though PVE is very nice i have to admit... 5555555555
Mahv
Why play an MMO if you're only going to solo? This game is designed to be played with other players. The solo road is going to be the path of greatest resistance. Nonetheless, Ywain has lots of QoL for soloers. The downside at the moment is the lack of players so you either farm Doppels or get farmed by groups which has been the status quo now for years.
DAoC isn't going to bring in many new players at this point. It's an old game with snail paced development and a botched free-to-play model. The primary people keeping this game alive are addicts and fanatics. Maybe a Steam release will give the game a slight boost. But, much like the quarantine boom, it likely won't last long enough to matter. I'm personally at a loss as to what the current development team can do that's within their skill set. This is why I've said before that Ywain is as good as it's going to get. You either adapt to it or quit.
Who tf is running a 3 warrior train for dps? Mids don't need purple celerity because their DPS classes are savage and berserker, mostly not running 2h out of maybe vendo mode. As for the keep wall scenario, Hibs already have an advantage with vamp/ns/hero climbers over warr/svg/sb...
We don't need balance changes, we need improvements to bring back population to better assess balance. Nobody is going to come back when this game has a random new ability every year that is insanely OP then nerfed a year later.
I have to weigh in here again to get things straight again.
All the discussions here are about zergs or well organized groups.
And you talk about getting people into the game.
NOBODY which thinks about comming to the game, gives a **** about that....
In zergs nothing matters at all.
Well organized groups have NOTHING to do with getting new players to the game.
If you want new and more population you HAVE TO think about solo....
And ONLY solo....
And as we all know in the Solo-Case (PVP) this game is a epic failure...
Though PVE is very nice i have to admit... 5555555555
Mahv
You act so ignorant of the games ceiling. You don't want the ceiling lowered, you want the floor raised, meanwhile the ceiling is still going to keep crushing you all the while. Balance the ceiling not the floor.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Who tf is running a 3 warrior train for dps? Mids don't need purple celerity because their DPS classes are savage and berserker, mostly not running 2h out of maybe vendo mode. As for the keep wall scenario, Hibs already have an advantage with vamp/ns/hero climbers over warr/svg/sb...
We don't need balance changes, we need improvements to bring back population to better assess balance. Nobody is going to come back when this game has a random new ability every year that is insanely OP then nerfed a year later.
I have to weigh in here again to get things straight again.
All the discussions here are about zergs or well organized groups.
And you talk about getting people into the game.
NOBODY which thinks about comming to the game, gives a **** about that....
In zergs nothing matters at all.
Well organized groups have NOTHING to do with getting new players to the game.
If you want new and more population you HAVE TO think about solo....
And ONLY solo....
And as we all know in the Solo-Case (PVP) this game is a epic failure...
Though PVE is very nice i have to admit... 5555555555
Mahv
You act so ignorant of the games ceiling. You don't want the ceiling lowered, you want the floor raised, meanwhile the ceiling is still going to keep crushing you all the while. Balance the ceiling not the floor.
Correct, as if we talk about new people and population the ceiling is without ANY meaning.
The ceiling represent 0.01% of gamers...
The floor represent 99.9% of the gamers.
Which do you thing is more important for a high population ???
Who tf is running a 3 warrior train for dps? Mids don't need purple celerity because their DPS classes are savage and berserker, mostly not running 2h out of maybe vendo mode. As for the keep wall scenario, Hibs already have an advantage with vamp/ns/hero climbers over warr/svg/sb...
We don't need balance changes, we need improvements to bring back population to better assess balance. Nobody is going to come back when this game has a random new ability every year that is insanely OP then nerfed a year later.
I have to weigh in here again to get things straight again.
All the discussions here are about zergs or well organized groups.
And you talk about getting people into the game.
NOBODY which thinks about comming to the game, gives a **** about that....
In zergs nothing matters at all.
Well organized groups have NOTHING to do with getting new players to the game.
If you want new and more population you HAVE TO think about solo....
And ONLY solo....
And as we all know in the Solo-Case (PVP) this game is a epic failure...
Though PVE is very nice i have to admit... 5555555555
Mahv
You act so ignorant of the games ceiling. You don't want the ceiling lowered, you want the floor raised, meanwhile the ceiling is still going to keep crushing you all the while. Balance the ceiling not the floor.
Correct, as if we talk about new people and population the ceiling is without ANY meaning.
The ceiling represent 0.01% of gamers...
The floor represent 99.9% of the gamers.
Which do you thing is more important for a high population ???
Mahv
Considering the floor is a brand new player, sounds like a pretty harsh insult to the playerbase, yet you want to bring in new players.
You can raise the floor all you want, the game still needs to be balanced around the end-game, or ceiling, or else you will still be pushed to tears by 14 year old kids in basements. Nobody is advocating to make the game harder, why don't you explain to all of us why you believe a 50% body debuff on bainshee will make it better for the "99.9%?" I predict those same groups/players that aren't assisting, creating assist macros, diseasing for the MA, or stunning for the MA, will still be doing the same exact thing if that specific feature rolls through, and then complaining when the "0.01%" gets a hold of these exact same setups they are running, only organized.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
I came back to game and realized light eldys have 9 sec stun, aoe mez, nearsight. baseline and spec dq insta debuffs, snare/aoe snare/aoe disease and now an instant 50% spirit debuff + 44 sec root that roots most things for at least a minute. And then of course you have 5 rsp's for your Ichor should you mess something else up...And, of course, as much dps as a rm, sm or bd.
It's like giving pac healers a 209 dd. What the heck happened to parity? How do you even fight that?
Do you know what @Koe, I logged in my Eld and had exactly the same reaction.
Explains all the light eldritch's out in NF absolutely DOMINATING the field, right? Nobody cares about baseline stun stop the QQ. But keep comparing light eld and bonedancer, while the real issues keep compounding.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
What I dont get is people saying 8mans and soloing is where most the population is and the most important. When it is none of those the zergs has the most population pull as there when the they are running literally 70-80% of the online player base is running in the bg. When as you been saying it solo is basically dead and there is only ever like at most 3 8mans out on all 3 realms put together and omost no pugs at all. If you are an 8man and tired of the bg chasing you stop poking at the beast i have run in the bus in all the realms they do not care about your 8man we want the other bg a lot more as the realms points we get from killing you with 60plus people is like killing a doppelganger with a full grip it might as well be nothing.(the only bg leader a cant vouch for is hero as I have not run in his bg in over a year). So stop complaining about zergs being the minority in this game. If you nerf the rps zergs get to omost nothing the the game will most likely use 80% of its player base the will not switch to 8man because off the elite grps the the game will not have the money to even stay open. Zergs are the biggest play stile and prolly brings in the most money to the game.
The devs priority needs to be 8 man. People will still zerg, but zerging kills all other playstyles.
That's why you need to put every effort in order to make zerging as difficult as possible, because ppl naturally gravitate towards what's easy.
Zerging is easy, zerging is convenient, you need to balance that out by giving huge incentives to other playstyles, and removing almost every incentive that is currently handed to zergs.
It's not because ppl prefer to do this and that, it's a matter of balance and making sure all 4 styles (zerg, 8 man, smallman and solo) are alive.
Like you said, zergers will still zerg no matter what. They won't stop playing all of a sudden. However, the game lost ecery single other playstyle in its quest to please zergs.
@Dale_Perf but but but, don't you realize a light eld can spirit debuff his green root that has a 50% resist rate, and he can also mezz people for approximately 4.6 seconds using his 26 seconds ae mezz. Please nerf light elds.
My favorite part is you can literally do it with any class @Shoke
omg how can you beat a pach 1v1??? aoe stun, single target stun. aoe mez, single mez, insta group heal, insta self heal, purge, root, dehaste, celerity, omg!?!?!?!?
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
Explains all the classes with baseline stun absolutely DOMINATING the field, right? Nobody cares about baseline stun stop the QQ.
Fixed
I'll take my SM over any hib caster any day of the week
Dark is strong but I wasn't expecting the sup dd to make pbaoe spec so over the top. Intercepting pet makes it pretty tough in anything up to 8mans. Maybe tone the dd down to 179 2.6 no resist debuff. You can still assist damage type.
Is this part of cancel culture or something? A class is strong so must nerf! Not really necessary to touch SM @Koe outside of nerfing pbae which they just did.
"...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
"the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
I quit long ago when bolts became worthless and I nuked heavy tanks for 350 damage with the 219 delve nuke max int max damage ra’s. That 350 was after a 35 percent debuff via staff charge. Wizard had nothing other then damage, and others excelled past him and still do.
Yes but casters are still situationally superior. Can you hit 100 people for 100-300 damage at a time, on a tank? Theoretically on a valk, but theoretically much higher on a caster. If they ever brought parity to caster/tank it would make casters extremely overpowered when played well.
I will note the bolt argument is especially interesting as a mid, where both hib/alb have heightened AF and their casters can have up to 800-900 AF. That just makes your bolt near worthless (but for extended range and a bit of burst damage). Bolts vs mid casters still hurt!
At least have some decency to not look so Mid oriented. Every single comment you make is so unilateraly pro-mid (aka crying that mid is so much worse than hib and alb). How do hib casters have higher AF than Mid casters? Because they can situationally group with a **** caster, aka the enchantment chanter?
You get the same AF bufh as hib casters, same as alb casters.
Muy did go on a campaign to give charmable pets and 209 DDs to pac healers, but his recent complaints are towards curse locks, which are lack luster and somewhat justified.
You, on the other hand, don't even make sense. You complain for the sake of complaining. Why don't you play hib or alb if Mid is so crappy?
And you were a knight before? Like your job was to provide nuanced feedback to BS they could use to balance out the realms?
Rock Paper Scissors is long gone. Where in a seige should a caster take 20 nukes to kill a tank without heals. That is what made people quit years ago. Their class no longer was viable with near immune to damage tanks. I remember hitting casters for 450 damage after the 15 percent debuff. Great when a caster has 2000 hps these days. With stun it is possible. Take away bolts give wizards a 225 delve dd
1875 range add a 30-50 percent debuff in the same line. I bet other casters will still come close to the damage
At least have some decency to not look so Mid oriented. Every single comment you make is so unilateraly pro-mid (aka crying that mid is so much worse than hib and alb). How do hib casters have higher AF than Mid casters?
Hi @Shoke I'll respond to some of your rant but hello? I play mid because I enjoy the challenge and community and I've decided to just play one realm for the past 5 or so years. At the time Mid didn't have as many advocates, and these days I don't have the time to play more than just one realm. Alb has some very vocal advocates, has for a while, as does hib.
In the very comment you reference above I've highlighted an area where Valkyries can do something no other melee class can on any realm (I suppose we could talk savage or *possibly* vw but its more consistent on spear valk).Over the last day or so here I've also stated how Melee Hunters are very strong and of the archer classes, scouts (I do not play a scout I just know they are the easiest class to kill on many mid classes) are underpowered. I've also stated that SM is very strong in dark and "over the top" in supp and in fact I believe the Supp 209 10% decrease dd needs to be toned down (or removed and let them just use the baseline dd which they can still assist with). However that doesn't fit your narrative that every single comment I make is so unilateral[l]y pro mid. I look forward to your non-response as I've easily destroyed it given my posting history in just the past day or so (of what few posts I've made).
Above I stated that hibs and albs can have up to 800-900 AF which mids can't achieve, if they have a chanter with a sub-20 spec in enchantments, or any pally playing the game. Neither of which are as unusual as you portend. I've been trying to keep this to facts. Others are free to raise facts that they believe are being overlooked. I don't think bolts are make or break for any realm, but they are even less worthwhile (especially vs albs in particular). Did I offend you with this comment?
You can accuse me of having a bias, but we all have one. The more frequent 8man players these days (yourself included) have an intense bias towards making as many rps as they can, and they've cleaned up on some META setups. Should I instead be encouraging things that allow for a higher ceiling so that meta groups can continue to reap up to 4-5m rps per week on 5 nights of play? Should death "hurt more" and "skill be more rewarded"? I've simply been advocating for what I believe is a large but silent majority of game players on Mid because without it the fear is a loss of population which is at this point the most necessary thing for all playstyles. Hopefully that helps the discussion.
Never- mind they gave a class with huge utility the 30 percent debuff with 225 dd. Banshee’s get this after patch. Seen they gave a high utility class my idea. And an all damage class gets something sub par
@Koe OK, you said hunters are better than scouts. You know, the sky is blue also. Congrats on stating what's obvious to everyone.
You did rant on how pallys were incredible and that having a tank with heals was OP... Guess you forgot about valiyries that time.
I'm not against argueing (obviously) but sometimes (a lot of times) you just sound like the midgard version of Brut.
Fyi, matter echantment is now a lvl 26 (ish) spell. That was changed when they nerfed the enchantment line because of the cold enchant. It was a required nerf. You can't spec that enchant unless you actually go enchantment (or Light spec), both are not very strong specs.
Pally af buff has been nerfed down to 75 af, which is OK aswell. Saying that bolts are useless against hib/albs but still rip mid casters is a bit of a stretch, and that's what I called you on.
However, one thing I would agree with you is that casters are way too tanky nowadays. Can make a template with over 32-33% primary melee resists, add on top of that PD5-7 and you have a caster running around with close to 50% primary melee resists (then you add PD charge items on top of that) and the CL abs buff. It just promotes bad play and bad positioning and hopefully I wish they'd make casters much more squishy than they are now.
Not sure why you are concerned about the 199/10% spirit nuke. That was actually a buff to supp SMs that made sense, specifically because of enchanters. Enchanters had a huge advantage over the other pbae classes because their pbae spec is actually their open field spec aswell. So they gave Supp SMs a spec nuke to balance that out and make them a more viable option in open field/8 man fights. It is a very reasonable buffs to SM.
@Shoke I said pallies get spec group heals. They also get a group insta that heals for as much if not more than valk heal, on a short 1m reuse, and group clears. That combination beats a pbaoe heal vs a diseased realmmate on a 15 sec timer any time of the day. You are well aware I did not make an argument that mid has no tank with any heals so either quote what I actually say or stop. This isn't a political thread; no spin is necessary unless you are just trying to "win" arguments for the sake of arguing.
Again you misquote me in saying I said bolts are useless against hib/albs but still rip mid casters. I said that the bolt issue isn't a big deal, but that it impacts mids more. Again, not incorrect. You should just stop inflating what I say to the point where it becomes incorrect. It was a good change to have the chanter af upped to level 26, but it's still modifiable by buff bonus. With a template, you can have mana elds bombing with 950 af. Given your argument that casters can already be too tanky, I'm surprised you don't find this to be a concern.
FYI Pallies group AF chant is 99 not 75, and its modifiable both by chants and buff bonus. A decently specced Ice wiz will have 850 AF with a pally in group. Mids with a SM with af buff will be at 700 at the high end. Again if you feel casters are too tanky how is this not of any consideration?
On the SM spirit nuke. I also supported a spec nuke when the pbaoe changes were going live. I'm sure you could look at my posting history from back then and see that if you are as it seems into critiquing my postings. What I wasn't considering and what I think we've seen over the intervening period is that the intercepting pet makes a very large difference relative to what a chanter pet does. This is especially true in small man settings but also applicable in groups. Yes chanters have more utility in mana, but Chanter pets are also more squishy. I think balance on a SM is hard, but right now it's absolutely the mid caster class you need to play unless you want to go the specialized thane route or maybe next patch lock.
Please dont touch heavys, they are the most ballanced classes in the game, if anything is needed it should be a antikiting tool on them, but i feel tthat their defences are so strong, that they should have that, infact, just leave them the way they are, they are perfectly fine as they are now.
If you nerf heavys, i will have to join the old whining choir asking who really asked for that, i have a really hard time imagining that anyone would want to change heavy tanks. I know some people who play them would naturally like them to get boosted, but who is saying they are too rough, they can slam and go 2h, its totally a 1 trick pony, and lots of classes have no problem killling them, specially kiting classes. Heavys have some classes they excel at killing, but isnt that the rock paper scissor part of the game.
"and and lots of classes have no problem killling them, specially kiting classes...." This is so true, especially Armsman, (The weakest of the 3 HT in DAOC).
Of all the MMOs out there to play in 2020, the HTs in DAOC are the worst and weakest compared to WoW, SWTOR, ESO...the list goes on. Never seen a MMO game where HTs are so weak
I came back to game and realized light eldys have 9 sec stun, aoe mez, nearsight. baseline and spec dq insta debuffs, snare/aoe snare/aoe disease and now an instant 50% spirit debuff + 44 sec root that roots most things for at least a minute. And then of course you have 5 rsp's for your Ichor should you mess something else up...And, of course, as much dps as a rm, sm or bd.
It's like giving pac healers a 209 dd. What the heck happened to parity? How do you even fight that?
Do you know what @Koe, I logged in my Eld and had exactly the same reaction.
i still think that healers need to have some sort of damage option, but whenever i bring that up ... people on the board nail me to a cross.
healers are the only class in the game that can't spec in some line to increase their damage.
i'm not sure what could give them 'something' that could allow them damage beyond unspecced melee attack. maybe make their self damage add/proc that's pve only also work in pvp ?
after leading well over 100 mid bg's in the last 10 months i notice that i often have a (few) group(s) and 10 - 20 ungrouped people because there are no ungrouped healers available to start another group. after the group healing/spreadheal nerfs i noticed that a lot of healers just gave up on playing their healers and midgard is constantly in short suplly off healers. a lot of the people playing healers now just find their class boring and one dimentional. yeah, a pac healer can do heals and CC, but a aug healer can only heal, nothing else
i also notice that in the other realms, at least one of the 2 main healing classes have more than 1/level spec points and on midgard both main healing classes are 1/level spec points; bards and friars can heal bur also have other options beyond what a healer can do.
i also notice that on midgard the main healer classes ,,,, getting a shaman in your group doesn't get you another person that will give you another person in group who will do heals. now, most rvr shamans are 'want to be dps' in chainmail and forgot that they are actually a healing class.
Post edited by Muylae on
Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
Well, healers are always incredibly boring to play in siege, in all realms.
Aug healers can (and really should) cc. If your Aug sits there and strictly heals, no wonder they find the class boring. Healers have baseline cc, they should use it, regardless of their spec.
You can't change a class based strictly on the fact that people find playing in siege boring. Especially Euro time when all you do is getting run over by Hero in keeps.
It's a game issue more than a class issue imo.
What hurts mid I find is since this game is so zergy that you need SoS in a group, and a skald basically takes the spot of the warrior in a group (because the valk is a mandatory spot). But you can't buff skalds, and you can't really give SoS to another mid class...
Comments
While Skald and Minstrel in themselves are very strong classes, and one would argue changing either of those classes would drastically change the class in other playstyles. Furthermore, hibernia tank trains can rock 4 bodyguards (Warden, VW, Hero, Champion) and still have room leftover for a charge tank (vamp or bm), without sacrificing any utlity, which is pretty devastating to any opposing tank group. Having the utility and SoS on their support/cc classes is the main factor here, not your stun-nuke-nuke everybody is complaining about.
Hib setup: Bard / Druid / Ward / 5x DPS (sometimes take 1 dps as peeler)
Mid Setup: Pach / Augh / Shammy / Skald / Peels / 3 DPS
Alb Setup: Sorc / Cleric / Friar / Minst / 4 DPS
Now while this doesn't cause any instant game-breaking problems, it does show an issue with such small population. It's pretty clear that Hib has way more flexibility within their groups than ANY other realm.
How to fix this? Simple idea would be to move SoS away from bard and onto a non-support class in Hib, but that hardly seems fair or lore-like.
The stun argument is more 1) zerg and 2) keep siege related (open field zerg as well) and 3)solo/small man. Hib is the strongest on a number of fronts.and it probably started with the warden buff years ago. Mid had the upper hand for the first ~9 years with celerity and LA mechanics and a very strong early years PAC spec, but Mid's singular stuff has gradually been given to the other realms, without corresponding boosts to Mid classes.
For example, citing that optimum class breakdown above, in zerg situations that bard, druid, warden is going to have more than double the healing power (especially for out of LOS heals of pac, aug, sham unless the bard is specced honestly for open field 8v8, in which case its double or just under double). If mid wants red celerity for tank groups of for the aug to be substantially better on celerity/resists than just running a skald, they have to significantly reduce the group's healing power. Wardens can give full celerity/resists and full heals, with plenty to spare for peels/shield. Enter the instant/group instant and spread heal argument (Except in this situation hibs still have the druid with exactly these same abilities AND druids can spec higher in regrowth given that wardens are already covering vs most current caster train setups on mid/alb with body/energy/spirit spell resists at 24).
This is a rabbit hole of a topic, as we can dive down a punch of paper daoc spec scenarios, but DAoC was not designed to be played which such a low population on a consistent basis, as now we see the cracks in the foundation.
Interesting comment about how population redux has changed the landscape, hadn't thought about that.
We don't need balance changes, we need improvements to bring back population to better assess balance. Nobody is going to come back when this game has a random new ability every year that is insanely OP then nerfed a year later.
Also, heretics dont benefit from conc acuity buffs
You keep talking about celerity, but what about resists? Look at the healer resists, look at other realms pbae damage, do the math.
I have to weigh in here again to get things straight again.
All the discussions here are about zergs or well organized groups.
And you talk about getting people into the game.
NOBODY which thinks about comming to the game, gives a **** about that....
In zergs nothing matters at all.
Well organized groups have NOTHING to do with getting new players to the game.
If you want new and more population you HAVE TO think about solo....
And ONLY solo....
And as we all know in the Solo-Case (PVP) this game is a epic failure...
Though PVE is very nice i have to admit... 5555555555
Mahv
Why play an MMO if you're only going to solo? This game is designed to be played with other players. The solo road is going to be the path of greatest resistance. Nonetheless, Ywain has lots of QoL for soloers. The downside at the moment is the lack of players so you either farm Doppels or get farmed by groups which has been the status quo now for years.
DAoC isn't going to bring in many new players at this point. It's an old game with snail paced development and a botched free-to-play model. The primary people keeping this game alive are addicts and fanatics. Maybe a Steam release will give the game a slight boost. But, much like the quarantine boom, it likely won't last long enough to matter. I'm personally at a loss as to what the current development team can do that's within their skill set. This is why I've said before that Ywain is as good as it's going to get. You either adapt to it or quit.
You act so ignorant of the games ceiling. You don't want the ceiling lowered, you want the floor raised, meanwhile the ceiling is still going to keep crushing you all the while. Balance the ceiling not the floor.
thanks
Correct, as if we talk about new people and population the ceiling is without ANY meaning.
The ceiling represent 0.01% of gamers...
The floor represent 99.9% of the gamers.
Which do you thing is more important for a high population ???
Mahv
Considering the floor is a brand new player, sounds like a pretty harsh insult to the playerbase, yet you want to bring in new players.
You can raise the floor all you want, the game still needs to be balanced around the end-game, or ceiling, or else you will still be pushed to tears by 14 year old kids in basements. Nobody is advocating to make the game harder, why don't you explain to all of us why you believe a 50% body debuff on bainshee will make it better for the "99.9%?" I predict those same groups/players that aren't assisting, creating assist macros, diseasing for the MA, or stunning for the MA, will still be doing the same exact thing if that specific feature rolls through, and then complaining when the "0.01%" gets a hold of these exact same setups they are running, only organized.
It's like giving pac healers a 209 dd. What the heck happened to parity? How do you even fight that?
Do you know what @Koe, I logged in my Eld and had exactly the same reaction.
The devs priority needs to be 8 man. People will still zerg, but zerging kills all other playstyles.
That's why you need to put every effort in order to make zerging as difficult as possible, because ppl naturally gravitate towards what's easy.
Zerging is easy, zerging is convenient, you need to balance that out by giving huge incentives to other playstyles, and removing almost every incentive that is currently handed to zergs.
It's not because ppl prefer to do this and that, it's a matter of balance and making sure all 4 styles (zerg, 8 man, smallman and solo) are alive.
Like you said, zergers will still zerg no matter what. They won't stop playing all of a sudden. However, the game lost ecery single other playstyle in its quest to please zergs.
keep everyone happy......
the laid back peeps and the skilled leets........
Fixed
I'll take my SM over any hib caster any day of the week
omg how can you beat a pach 1v1??? aoe stun, single target stun. aoe mez, single mez, insta group heal, insta self heal, purge, root, dehaste, celerity, omg!?!?!?!?
Dark is strong but I wasn't expecting the sup dd to make pbaoe spec so over the top. Intercepting pet makes it pretty tough in anything up to 8mans. Maybe tone the dd down to 179 2.6 no resist debuff. You can still assist damage type.
Not sure if trolling at this point
I will note the bolt argument is especially interesting as a mid, where both hib/alb have heightened AF and their casters can have up to 800-900 AF. That just makes your bolt near worthless (but for extended range and a bit of burst damage). Bolts vs mid casters still hurt!
At least have some decency to not look so Mid oriented. Every single comment you make is so unilateraly pro-mid (aka crying that mid is so much worse than hib and alb). How do hib casters have higher AF than Mid casters? Because they can situationally group with a **** caster, aka the enchantment chanter?
You get the same AF bufh as hib casters, same as alb casters.
Muy did go on a campaign to give charmable pets and 209 DDs to pac healers, but his recent complaints are towards curse locks, which are lack luster and somewhat justified.
You, on the other hand, don't even make sense. You complain for the sake of complaining. Why don't you play hib or alb if Mid is so crappy?
And you were a knight before? Like your job was to provide nuanced feedback to BS they could use to balance out the realms?
1875 range add a 30-50 percent debuff in the same line. I bet other casters will still come close to the damage
Hi @Shoke I'll respond to some of your rant but hello? I play mid because I enjoy the challenge and community and I've decided to just play one realm for the past 5 or so years. At the time Mid didn't have as many advocates, and these days I don't have the time to play more than just one realm. Alb has some very vocal advocates, has for a while, as does hib.
In the very comment you reference above I've highlighted an area where Valkyries can do something no other melee class can on any realm (I suppose we could talk savage or *possibly* vw but its more consistent on spear valk).Over the last day or so here I've also stated how Melee Hunters are very strong and of the archer classes, scouts (I do not play a scout I just know they are the easiest class to kill on many mid classes) are underpowered. I've also stated that SM is very strong in dark and "over the top" in supp and in fact I believe the Supp 209 10% decrease dd needs to be toned down (or removed and let them just use the baseline dd which they can still assist with). However that doesn't fit your narrative that every single comment I make is so unilateral[l]y pro mid. I look forward to your non-response as I've easily destroyed it given my posting history in just the past day or so (of what few posts I've made).
Above I stated that hibs and albs can have up to 800-900 AF which mids can't achieve, if they have a chanter with a sub-20 spec in enchantments, or any pally playing the game. Neither of which are as unusual as you portend. I've been trying to keep this to facts. Others are free to raise facts that they believe are being overlooked. I don't think bolts are make or break for any realm, but they are even less worthwhile (especially vs albs in particular). Did I offend you with this comment?
You can accuse me of having a bias, but we all have one. The more frequent 8man players these days (yourself included) have an intense bias towards making as many rps as they can, and they've cleaned up on some META setups. Should I instead be encouraging things that allow for a higher ceiling so that meta groups can continue to reap up to 4-5m rps per week on 5 nights of play? Should death "hurt more" and "skill be more rewarded"? I've simply been advocating for what I believe is a large but silent majority of game players on Mid because without it the fear is a loss of population which is at this point the most necessary thing for all playstyles. Hopefully that helps the discussion.
You did rant on how pallys were incredible and that having a tank with heals was OP... Guess you forgot about valiyries that time.
I'm not against argueing (obviously) but sometimes (a lot of times) you just sound like the midgard version of Brut.
Fyi, matter echantment is now a lvl 26 (ish) spell. That was changed when they nerfed the enchantment line because of the cold enchant. It was a required nerf. You can't spec that enchant unless you actually go enchantment (or Light spec), both are not very strong specs.
Pally af buff has been nerfed down to 75 af, which is OK aswell. Saying that bolts are useless against hib/albs but still rip mid casters is a bit of a stretch, and that's what I called you on.
However, one thing I would agree with you is that casters are way too tanky nowadays. Can make a template with over 32-33% primary melee resists, add on top of that PD5-7 and you have a caster running around with close to 50% primary melee resists (then you add PD charge items on top of that) and the CL abs buff. It just promotes bad play and bad positioning and hopefully I wish they'd make casters much more squishy than they are now.
Not sure why you are concerned about the 199/10% spirit nuke. That was actually a buff to supp SMs that made sense, specifically because of enchanters. Enchanters had a huge advantage over the other pbae classes because their pbae spec is actually their open field spec aswell. So they gave Supp SMs a spec nuke to balance that out and make them a more viable option in open field/8 man fights. It is a very reasonable buffs to SM.
Again you misquote me in saying I said bolts are useless against hib/albs but still rip mid casters. I said that the bolt issue isn't a big deal, but that it impacts mids more. Again, not incorrect. You should just stop inflating what I say to the point where it becomes incorrect. It was a good change to have the chanter af upped to level 26, but it's still modifiable by buff bonus. With a template, you can have mana elds bombing with 950 af. Given your argument that casters can already be too tanky, I'm surprised you don't find this to be a concern.
FYI Pallies group AF chant is 99 not 75, and its modifiable both by chants and buff bonus. A decently specced Ice wiz will have 850 AF with a pally in group. Mids with a SM with af buff will be at 700 at the high end. Again if you feel casters are too tanky how is this not of any consideration?
On the SM spirit nuke. I also supported a spec nuke when the pbaoe changes were going live. I'm sure you could look at my posting history from back then and see that if you are as it seems into critiquing my postings. What I wasn't considering and what I think we've seen over the intervening period is that the intercepting pet makes a very large difference relative to what a chanter pet does. This is especially true in small man settings but also applicable in groups. Yes chanters have more utility in mana, but Chanter pets are also more squishy. I think balance on a SM is hard, but right now it's absolutely the mid caster class you need to play unless you want to go the specialized thane route or maybe next patch lock.
I think he meant pd charge as in ow belt which is primary.
"and and lots of classes have no problem killling them, specially kiting classes...." This is so true, especially Armsman, (The weakest of the 3 HT in DAOC).
Of all the MMOs out there to play in 2020, the HTs in DAOC are the worst and weakest compared to WoW, SWTOR, ESO...the list goes on. Never seen a MMO game where HTs are so weak
i still think that healers need to have some sort of damage option, but whenever i bring that up ... people on the board nail me to a cross.
healers are the only class in the game that can't spec in some line to increase their damage.
i'm not sure what could give them 'something' that could allow them damage beyond unspecced melee attack. maybe make their self damage add/proc that's pve only also work in pvp ?
after leading well over 100 mid bg's in the last 10 months i notice that i often have a (few) group(s) and 10 - 20 ungrouped people because there are no ungrouped healers available to start another group. after the group healing/spreadheal nerfs i noticed that a lot of healers just gave up on playing their healers and midgard is constantly in short suplly off healers. a lot of the people playing healers now just find their class boring and one dimentional. yeah, a pac healer can do heals and CC, but a aug healer can only heal, nothing else
i also notice that in the other realms, at least one of the 2 main healing classes have more than 1/level spec points and on midgard both main healing classes are 1/level spec points; bards and friars can heal bur also have other options beyond what a healer can do.
i also notice that on midgard the main healer classes ,,,, getting a shaman in your group doesn't get you another person that will give you another person in group who will do heals. now, most rvr shamans are 'want to be dps' in chainmail and forgot that they are actually a healing class.
Aug healers can (and really should) cc. If your Aug sits there and strictly heals, no wonder they find the class boring. Healers have baseline cc, they should use it, regardless of their spec.
You can't change a class based strictly on the fact that people find playing in siege boring. Especially Euro time when all you do is getting run over by Hero in keeps.
It's a game issue more than a class issue imo.
What hurts mid I find is since this game is so zergy that you need SoS in a group, and a skald basically takes the spot of the warrior in a group (because the valk is a mandatory spot). But you can't buff skalds, and you can't really give SoS to another mid class...