Please bring back the old Hunter RR5

I'm would like to make my case for the return of the old Hunter RR5, and with it, an entire subclass of the game which is the snipe spec Hunter. The subclass virtually disappeared after the unnecessary change of the RR5 to what it is now, and it would be very easy to allow a choice based on spec. Those with a certain degree of melee could choose the current one and those with sufficient bow skill should be allowed to have the old one back.

After they changed archery to a type of magic, many casters were attracted to the role of Hunter yet we have an RR5 that's dedicated to melee damage...it doesn't make sense. A ranged class should be allowed to function within its spec with an RR5 that is congruent with what we do best. The old RR5 was not a "tool to escape" but rather to gain distance and continue the fight with the bow. It could be used to escape, yes, but like other tools from other magic classes such as cast stun, snare, mezz, etc it was supposed to create distance between the caster and the enemy.

Not everyone is attracted to melee classes and Hunters are suffering from extremely low utility at the moment. The beastcraft spec is one of the lowest utility lines in game. We spend a number of spec points to get 50 BC and we have no pet heals, and no real pet buffs or pet demezz. The pets sound good on paper but in practical use, they are hampered by persistent pet pathing issues and are easily outrun and CC'd. They are virtually useless against Rangers in particular because their RR5 is capable of disabling our pet use and as a result our bows.

As EC comes into being, I would like to see my beloved class regain some dignity. I've dedicated the bulk of my DAoC life to this class and it hurts to see the snipe spec hunter made nearly irrelevant. I know of enough who quit playing hunters, and in some cases the game altogether, because something that worked was broken. Every week I get tells from returning players in their hunters. They appear, and occasionally some have a number attached to their names, wearing Golden Scarab Vests, asking me how things work now, and they often don't find a reason to stay resubbed. The arrow damage is also not what it once was. Modern armour and items have changed the landscape.

This is my attempt at getting you to please look at this situation. I'll be happy to answer any questions.

Comments

  • I did not read the whole thing, but if you are reverting the RR5 for one archer. Give all archers their old RR5. The hunter was not the only archer who got the crap end of the stick.
  • KoeKoe
    edited October 8 PM
    I'd be on board if all archers got their old r5 and rangers got their frontal root back and scouts got a frontal shield root/swipe (to give them a fighting chance against a kiting hunter and its pet). Keep in mind you always could template the dark dragon locket which has decent stats and provides a 9 second speed burst that doesn't break on combat and ignores speed warps. On a kite/stealth class that definitely has its uses.
    Post edited by Koe on
  • You're already too slippery! I swear you seem to always have FZ up and get back into your tower every time I find you alone-ish. No more escapes for you!
  • edited October 8 PM
    Nope no more stealther adjustments. It was changed for a reason and then adjusted. Move on with your life or play a diff Archer...
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • Hmm... What would a hunter have to get distance...

    Bola shot?
    patella shot?
    FZ?
    Speedburst + phase shift?
    dog that diseases?
    CL disease?
    Melee snares from spear?
    Template Dark dragon locket?

    The hunter R5 was changed because it was another tool for good players to abuse and made hunters quite powerful.

    I mean come on.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    Hmm... What would a hunter have to get distance...

    Bola shot?
    patella shot?
    FZ?
    Speedburst + phase shift?
    dog that diseases?
    CL disease?
    Melee snares from spear?
    Template Dark dragon locket?

    The hunter R5 was changed because it was another tool for good players to abuse and made hunters quite powerful.

    I mean come on.

    Shoke, I am very grateful for this post because it perfectly demonstrates some of the fallacies that are often thrown around with regards to our "escape tools". These erroneous notions are usually mentioned by people who do not play snipe spec Hunter.

    The very first thing I want to do is apologise to @John_Broadsword and staff for having been unkind in previous comments when I came back and started suffering in game because of this loss. I know there have been moments where I, and other hunters, lost our heads and said harsh words. I will not bash game or devs. I just wish my concerns to be heard.

    First of all, most people rolling an archer want a ranged class. They aren't attracted to it because of melee. Melee is certainly a plus and there are three different archer classes in game. They are not mirror classes and that is one of the wonderful things about DAoC. You can choose to be more melee oriented or snipe spec, or at least you could.

    I would like to start with the top of your list: Bola and Patella are excellent shots...if you can get them out. Patella shot has a recast time of 15 seconds. Bola has a recast time of 20 seconds. Both are interruptable shots that any sort of DD will prevent you from firing.

    Entwining Snakes -- our much missed RR5 -- was not. From the old site:
    Entwining Snakes: Insta-cast spell that is PBAE 50% snare lasting 20 seconds with a 350 unit radius. Snare breaks on attack. Recast: 600 sec

    I am very glad you have brought up the Sojourner ML abilities of Zephyr and Phase Shift. These are not exclusive to Hunters, they aren't even exclusive to archers. Forest Phantom, an easily broken speed burst, is a very useful thing when it works.

    The most commonly used tool for gaining distance is Zephyr. The recast time on this is 10 Minutes. However, there has been a major change in game (several, actually) since my days as a Hunter. Our main enemies were other stealthers and Assassin classes have been given a tool called Blur. This tool, which I see abused all the time or maybe it's working as intended, is on a 90 second recast time. During a Kite-and-Fight situation, even if you were to survive the whole time until zephyr was up again (you won't as a snipe spec hunter), the Assassin will have Blur'd onto you at least 6 times. Again, Zephyr is not exclusive to Hunters.

    It is interesting to note that Assassin speed is vastly superior to stealthed Archer speed. Whereas in previous versions of the game Sins and Archers could fight fairly, Blur has completely changed this. Not only Shadowwalking allows them to move around in full speed, they can instantly teleport to melee range. So they are twice as powerful in speed.

    Going down the list, we have the dog that diseases. It does. If it hits. And if it procs. This is not a 100% thing. The dog diseasing, by the way, is not a means to gain distance. The dog snare is. However if you look closely at the dog snare, it is actually very unreliable for a number of reasons. And here is where it gets interesting. For you to actually have a dog that is high enough level to snare reliably, you need to spend 50 points in Beastcraft. The level 32 BC dog has 2 seconds to hit the target and snare it from casting Gleipnir's Wish. If it misses consistently, which it does, you can only recast this 90 seconds later. The fight will likely be over by then. You can go 40 BC or 50 BC, but if you do, you have to lower Stealth, Archery or Spear. The moment you cannot have composite 50 stealth you're easy prey to other realm's stealthers, especially other archers. The moment you sacrifice bow to get sufficient Spear for that stun you are talking about, you are not a snipe spec hunter anymore, you are a hybrid. You also have to know how to melee. A lot of players choose archer classes because they don't like melee. It is also a glamourous and adventurous class that appeals to the romantics among us. To be a Hunter is to be free like the wind. It's meant to be empowering and wonderful. It shouldn't be free rps for other classes.

    The Dark Dragon Locket is not worth templating as a Hunter. I wish this would stop being propagating as an option.

    In your post you have said: "The hunter R5 was changed because it was another tool for good players to abuse and made hunters quite powerful."
    Did it?
    There was a time in days gone by that all pet classes were quite powerful. It wasn't the RR5 that did this.

    Now we come to something a bit more personal and the reason behind the bitterness of some of our comments towards devs. The wording. This is what we were told back then: "We aren't going to let archers keep their existing RR5s in the form of class abilities. This change is largely about removing one of the (too) many escape tools all archers have."

    I want to address this because my experience without the old RR5 has been one of hopelessness and not being able to escape. Reading that comment filled me with the feeling that we were just not important enough to survive. Again, I am so sorry that I have sometimes been bitter instead of attempting to reach out. But a lot -- a LOT of hunters did indeed feel that their voices were not heard.

    On top of all this, Rangers were given an RR5 that nullifies our pet and disables our bow. A very curious choice. Rangers get a way of countering both other archers now. To quote Brandyn.pok: "The archers main distinctions are scout has a shield and Hunter has a pet. Ranger has always (mostly) been able to lower block rate, and the rr5 worse than nullifies the pet. I'd say that rr5 for ranger is the equivalent of Hunter getting one that takes away any chance to evade. Def doesn't affect all classes, but it neuters some. "

    I'm also going to quote @Pigleto here: "I think they should revise the forest phantom to be an unbreakable speed burst. Maybe even make it like entwining snakes. So they wanted to get rid of one of our escape toys. I agree with that but what they did is made it so that hunters don't have a viable escape tool now. The forest phantom and phase shift were never meant to be finger rolled otherwise they would have made it easier to do. I don't know how many times I've been ichored trying to get away from a fg with forest phantom and phase shift. Sometimes you have to blow purge just to get away as well. That is 3 toys that a person has to use in place of our rr5 which was taken away."

    Now you might be wondering, why aren't more Snipe Spec Hunters complaining? Actually they are, and they did, and some unsubbed and are not in these forums or just gave up on the class altogether. It is very telling when you only see one or two Hunters in top 100 lists. We are just not there anymore.

    The current RR5 does not benefit Snipe Spec Hunters who can only spec 4 in spear or sword.

    If I were to make one suggestion, it would be to make Entwining Snakes available again depending on spec. It would not at all be hard to implement.

    Well, I am. And this is a last ditch attempt at salvaging what was once the most wonderful experience of my life in DAoC. Because let's face it, we are not all made for melee, dancing, run-throughs, strafing and landing positionals. Some of us are made to fling arrows and use our wits to outlast the enemy.

    The Snipe Spec Hunter class is very attractive to a large number of players and yet it does not exist! I absolutely believe it is worth it to make viable again. I hope you will please take this into consideration. BS has proven that they listen to their customer base and I pray that this will be one of those times. In the name of Snipe Spec Hunters everywhere, especially those whose voices cannot be heard here, I thank you for your time.






  • As much as I hate the idea of RR5 forcing hunter to melee. I am also a strong believer in learning to adapt. And personally believe running sniper hunter is really a bad idea for RvR. You gimp yourself far too much. You should try some other specs and find a good hybrid spec that suites you. Because the RR5 will not get reverted back to old.
    Impounded - Warrior__________Korsperf - ShadowBlade
    Chantsy - Paladin____________Soundaffects - Skald

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  • Impounded, that's exactly my point -- you shouldn't be gimped by playing an archer class. The game should offer the choice to be a pure archer. Most classes on DAoC allow for a choice of path. With nerfed RR5, nerfed pet and limited spec points that actually work, you are forced to give up snipe spec and you are forced to learn to melee. Which isn't attractive to all players. Like many Hunters before me, the real choice is to either embrace melee or just give up the class. And I would rather not give up the class. It's a part of who I am and I know my character inside and out. She wouldn't want to be anything else either. :-)

    There has to be some light at the end of the tunnel for us Hunters!
  • No, if anything should be looked at, it would be to remove sojourner from grouped archers.

    Archer rr5's was removed for a reason, in 1v1 it was very strong, but in stealth zergs, which is the prefered playstyle for archers, it was too OP.
  • The reason for stealth groups now is because when assassins and archers rely on killing someone fast as posible before the enemy can take hold of the fight is voided because they heal back to full hp 3 times in the same fight. Stealth dose not have the survive abilities a tank has

    And we keep saying this you can easily avoid steath by learning where they are. Its not that hard and plus someone aways calls therr loc out on region

    Most of stealth zerg kills are from other stealth zergs we evolved so can you
  • Archer spec is still viable.... and a choice...it is just not as easy as it once was. It was VERY easy to kill on a sniper spec hunter before the changes (and when I soloed on mine I wasn't even rr5 yet). Hunters were way over-performing before. Toning the dog down a bit and changing the rr5 were intentional to bringing them more in line with where BS wants them to be. I don't envy their task in balancing stealth classes as you walk a fine line between OP solo/OP group/crazy gimped etc... As is, all archers are very hard to play solo unless you hump a tower and add on fights. That said, any love to change that could return them to solo Gods they once were.
  • Stealth zergs didn't evolve at all, they are still killing the game, and should be nerfed so hard, that no one wants to do it anymore, and I'm pretty sure that's the prevailing opinion of everybody, who aren't playing in a stealth zerg.

    So no we don't need old archer rr5 back, we need to nerf archers to not have sojourner, while grouped.
  • So my only issue with stealth zergs is they prey on lesser numbers.

    Many times I'll know an 8 stealth zerg is in an area but they will remain stealthed and let a 5 man run through... then I'll watch them all unstealth and waylay the duo that happens through. In many cases dropping FZ, Vanish, PS etc...

    The sad truth is they play stealth zergs simply because there is no "easy mode" option in the game setting for them to choose. They aren't looking for a challenge, that is a fact but it is their 15/mo so thats fine.

    I would simply like to see (I know it will NEVER happen though) some sort of limitations to the abilities that could be used if you severely outnumber your opponent or a much steeper decline in the rpts in relation to number disparity and no kill quest credit. I doubt it would stop stealth zerging but it would at least not reward them as much for doing it.
  • Mace80 wrote: »
    So my only issue with stealth zergs is they prey on lesser numbers.

    Many times I'll know an 8 stealth zerg is in an area but they will remain stealthed and let a 5 man run through... then I'll watch them all unstealth and waylay the duo that happens through. In many cases dropping FZ, Vanish, PS etc...

    The sad truth is they play stealth zergs simply because there is no "easy mode" option in the game setting for them to choose. They aren't looking for a challenge, that is a fact but it is their 15/mo so thats fine.

    I would simply like to see (I know it will NEVER happen though) some sort of limitations to the abilities that could be used if you severely outnumber your opponent or a much steeper decline in the rpts in relation to number disparity and no kill quest credit. I doubt it would stop stealth zerging but it would at least not reward them as much for doing it.

    We group together because we are all friends and dont like to solo and Just because you think that your solo or 2 to 3 man should not be attacked by stealthers is kind of laughable. Do you think that a visi 8 man would not run you down and use all there abilities to do so. Yup I think so. We dont have heals or any good cc so unless your a alb they do get a minst. Assassins have been nerfed in every patch plus stealth lore is every where now we cant remain static or we die to zergs or any group. If we get nerfed because we group together then any group above 3 should also. I run my skald solo all the time and get killed by stealth groups but I dont come on the forums to complain I figure out a different route to take to avoid their group . The big name 8 man groups and pretty much give the big visi zergs fits but should we nerf them ? I dont think so. Think outside the box and change your style of play. Oh and Play a stealther and see how hard it is you wont complain again its a hard class to play with all the stealth lore out there.
    Badgor NS
    Macwynne Hero
    Diavoll Warrior
    Demonn Shadowblade
  • I agree with @Shoke plenty of get out of jail free cards.

    I enjoy Mid and the Hunter, but alas it was changed and for a good reason. Scouts got the worst revamped rr5 yet you don’t see anyone crying about it publicly.

    GL
  • edited October 10 PM
    First, I never said they shouldn't attack us... I said it is funny that they do...but then let larger numbers (whom they still outnumber) go. They literally avoid a challenge. Also you can cry about nerfs all you want but every single assassin nerf was warranted. They are still incredibly powerful and all stealthers have the single most powerful ability in the game STEALTH. I didn't start this thread or even bring up the topic...but I am adding my 2 cents because this is a chat board dedicated to the game ...so thats kinda what you do here. I don't blame you for grouping... at all. As I said it is your 15/month, I'm just trying to provoke stealth zergs to prove they are more than bottom feeders and actually challenge themselves once in awhile.

    Also, the "we group because we're friends" thing....I understand that. The social component to this game is a huge factor. It isn't what I play for but I know that I am in the vast minority as I duo with my brother or solo and that is about it. I've never really done the "in-game friends" thing as I see the game as my alone time/escape from my busy schedule.

    This is not a critique or complaint but rather a genuine question about stealth groups. Do you guys ever get bored in your camp areas? Sometimes I find 8+ stealth in a very remote place and thing...wtf are they doing camped here!? Thats gotta be boring. I play for the heart pumping intense fights where the odds are stacked against me ....and only finding fights that are guaranteed wins gets very boring.


    I am under no belief that anything I say about the topic will truly change game dynamics or your approach to the game. Hell, more than anything I'm just venting as it makes me feel better. Don't worry, I'll still roll out into NF solo/duo on a visi and when you and your 7 buddies find me probably donate my rpts. The only pleasant thing about the interaction will be me seeing how many toys I can get you all to blow before I die.

    /shrug... I've always played this game with the intention that I hope my opponents walk away from a fight with me satisfied and eager for another fight win or lose. That mentality is absolutely dead in this game. I get it.... I don't like it and I can't change it...but I get it.
    Post edited by Mace80 on
  • Visi 8m leaving small/soloers, yes I see that happen all the time and have experienced it quite often myself.

    You don't come to the forums when you get stealth zerged because you are guilty of the same thing and you would look like a total tool bag if you did.

    Stealthers, especially sins are among the top of the food chain for solo... quit trying to pretend stealthers are weak.

    Sure you're all friends and want to group together that's great an all. I support that, but when you do it you tend to only fight what is instant ez rps and you hurt the game more than help. You could split your zerg into a few groups and go roam around as duos and trios. You could still be in same discord/vent and you can group together to fight bigger targets when help is needed. But that wouldn't happen in a million years xD. Either way you make good content for soloer/smally videos so keep up the good work.

    Impounded - Warrior__________Korsperf - ShadowBlade
    Chantsy - Paladin____________Soundaffects - Skald

    Feel free to add me on Discord: Impounded#5743

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  • Oh and I have stealthers.... I know the impact of the nerfs and while I will admit that soloing is very hard these days on one (still easier than a visi) compared to the past, I will contend that is due to lower populations and less soft targets out alone. I used to love playing my inf and sb solo...its just not enjoyable these days due to so few people soloing/small manning and therefore there being zero targets. You basically have to be a rr11+ to brave it these days.
  • Impounded wrote: »
    Visi 8m leaving small/soloers, yes I see that happen all the time and have experienced it quite often myself.

    You don't come to the forums when you get stealth zerged because you are guilty of the same thing and you would look like a total tool bag if you did.

    Stealthers, especially sins are among the top of the food chain for solo... quit trying to pretend stealthers are weak.

    Sure you're all friends and want to group together that's great an all. I support that, but when you do it you tend to only fight what is instant ez rps and you hurt the game more than help. You could split your zerg into a few groups and go roam around as duos and trios. You could still be in same discord/vent and you can group together to fight bigger targets when help is needed. But that wouldn't happen in a million years xD. Either way you make good content for soloer/smally videos so keep up the good work.

    Um I have not seen a 8 man leave a small man alone yet .. period !! I have seen your group run down my 3 man visi group countless times just for the ez rp's Im not here to argue with you I just don't want to get nerf'd again when a solo necro can take out 3 people by them self there is a problem. Plus we have broken our Hib group up and got our butts handed to us by another Alb stealth zerg so we group up to fight them. But I can say the same to any group larger then 8, break your zerg up and hunt in different areas your all in voice chat. Naw that doesn't fly with me.
    Plus I never said we are weak we just wont fight a good 8 man. IRC loves to hunt us because they know we cant compete with the tools that a visi group brings. Hate us if you must but I pay my 14.99 and I will play what I want and you can come and kill me and I will try and get you.
    Badgor NS
    Macwynne Hero
    Diavoll Warrior
    Demonn Shadowblade
  • As much grief as stealthers get (and give), I think they're fine as is. These arguments are as old as the game itself. Conflicting play styles are unavoidable without putting in some sort of instanced PvP which only a small portion of the player base may want (would need a vote to know for sure). The nature of the game is chaotic and typically unfair. It just suffers from having low population which I hope is resolved soon.

    Regarding the OPs request for changing Hunter RR5 (or any archer for that matter), I'd be interested to know if the advocates for the current RR5s still play. I assume these changes were requested to have been made in the first place.
  • I'd come try and fight YOU any day of the week. I'd win some and lose some...but it'd be fun as hell. As is.... it isn't because I'm not fight you... I'm fighting you and 7 others which isn't fun. It's just that simple.
  • Tyrantanic wrote: »
    Regarding the OPs request for changing Hunter RR5 (or any archer for that matter), I'd be interested to know if the advocates for the current RR5s still play. I assume these changes were requested to have been made in the first place.

    I am actually hearing from retired hunters that the changes were not requested by hunters, but by rangers. And the only people enjoying the new RR5 are not full time hunters, but players who dabble. One of them complained to me a couple of days ago that he couldn't spec high spear and sword due to autotrained points. He didn't care about bow.

    The new RR5 needs to be replaced with the old. This isn't nostalgia speaking, rather, it's about bringing back an important subspec.
  • Badgor wrote: »
    Um I have not seen a 8 man leave a small man alone yet .. period !! I have seen your group run down my 3 man visi group countless times just for the ez rp's Im not here to argue with you I just don't want to get nerf'd again when a solo necro can take out 3 people by them self there is a problem. Plus we have broken our Hib group up and got our butts handed to us by another Alb stealth zerg so we group up to fight them. But I can say the same to any group larger then 8, break your zerg up and hunt in different areas your all in voice chat. Naw that doesn't fly with me.
    Plus I never said we are weak we just wont fight a good 8 man. IRC loves to hunt us because they know we cant compete with the tools that a visi group brings. Hate us if you must but I pay my 14.99 and I will play what I want and you can come and kill me and I will try and get you.

    Haha ask any 8m and they will tell you they leave respected groups/players alone. It all comes around. You give respect and you will earn it. Not every group or every scenario but it does happen often. There is a ton of players/groups that will give respect. You and your friends will never experience that for obvious reasons.

    I don't run in groups so please please please.. tell me how my group has run down your small man "Countless Times". It is such a rare occasion for me to actually run in a group. And we don't need anything bigger than 3 to wipe your stealth zergs so again please elaborate. I can guarantee your zerg has face rolled me 1000x more than "My groups" have ever killed you.

    Good, group up to fight the other stealth zergs. But they're not always out now are they? That is when you stealth zergs hurt action the most for everything other than 8m. Believe it or not you become a cancer to the game around those times. There is a reason you guys are disliked by pretty much every single play style aside from your own.
    Impounded - Warrior__________Korsperf - ShadowBlade
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  • Buffsteria wrote: »
    The new RR5 needs to be replaced with the old. This isn't nostalgia speaking, rather, it's about bringing back an important subspec.

    You may have better chances at getting the RR5 revamped rather then reverted. Maybe you can start a thread for archers to post their ideas to alter the RR5 to better fit sniper playstyle as well as hybrid.

    Example of one would be to add a slight speed boost (Considering it's a wolf it fits lore) to the RR5 for a short time to allow the hunter to kite and gain distance once more.

    Impounded - Warrior__________Korsperf - ShadowBlade
    Chantsy - Paladin____________Soundaffects - Skald

    Feel free to add me on Discord: Impounded#5743

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  • It was changed for a reason and adjusted not just once but twice. Adapt and move on it’s literally been years...
  • I miss the old days where archers were faster in stealth than assassins.
    Dreamscape 12Lx Dark Lotus
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