Runemaster ST - strongly disagree with adding a second ST class on Midgard.

edited November 2018 in General Board
We have heard the arguments pro from many passionate Mid players. Here are my arguments con -

My understanding was that Mid did not get a 2nd ST because they are of course the only realm with an AOE stun (and Instant AOE stun) one that lasts 10 seconds at that. "They get it so we should too" arguments are always extremely selective. Major advantages in Midgard would be for example having "free" 2H spec, higher weaponskill tables (Warrior, Skald, Hunter over their counterparts), AOE Stun and generally strong, condensed specs that allow every class an option to fit well in groups.

I'm opposed to granting greater RA access in principle, but AE stun and ST synergize too strongly to be ignored as a factor. Specially, the combination of AOE Stun + ST is effectively a death sentence for anyone without Purge or SoS up. It's tolerable now because it's so rare, but Runemasters fit perfectly into bomb groups.

As much as I enjoyed STing into my Healer's AOE stun and vice versa, I highly doubt that the 15-20 out of 25-30 people we would kill thought it was that fun.

To predict and rebut any counter arguments, the realms are not perfectly mirrored. If Mid is to get a second ST, it might be time to consider giving Smite Clerics AOE stun. A rarer spec for Clerics, so it won't be as effective as the Mid version, but fitting. Hibernia's version of the stun advantage of course stands out in their 3 core caster classes, particularly in keep sieges. Minstrel instant stun has impactful niche uses, but it is not particularly powerful anywhere outside of small man stealth.
Post edited by Ylazul on
Minstrel. Thane, Druid
Heretic, BD, Animist
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Comments

  • The Holiday's may be coming up but this is not the time for "giving". What @Ylazul stated was exactly the same thing argued between the Pro 2nd ST realm (who's primary argument was, "why should we be the only realm with 1 ST class", and those who countered (with actual logic regarding the Healer class) and that's because you're the only realm with an AoE stun and instant AoE stun.

  • edited November 2018 PM
    As an aside, the reason why ST is a high stakes game is perhaps because there is a perceived lack of internal balance between RAs. That's to say everyone sees ST has being very high value and thus clamors to have more of it.

    Perhaps bumping up other active RAs to meet the standard of ST, BOF, BA, PR, SOS, etc would make access to ST less of an issue.

    So I say the change to TWF is a move in the right direction. Perhaps the same could be done for VP and Ichor.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
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  • "Mids should get everything everyone else has. Everyone else should NOT get what mids have." - Mids

    Minis should get instant amnesia.
    RMs should lose volcanic pillar.
    Clerics should get instant AOE stun.

    Realm equality!
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Personally i wish they would just remove ST or limit it to 1 hybrid per realm like thane / champ / paladin or something like that.
    AoE stun and stun immunity reset in the same RA is just silly imo.

    As a player with multiple healers / clerics / druids / bards ( i like support :P ) for all i care you can remove AoE stun too and give me something more fun in return. ( DoT / Nuke / instant amnesia / hammer spec line / pet / whatever lol )
    Many times with det and stuff stun is just a minor speedbump anyway.
    Post edited by Vrisslar on
  • that's because you're the only realm with an AoE stun and instant AoE stun.

    That have to be specced.
  • Juzzo wrote: »
    that's because you're the only realm with an AoE stun and instant AoE stun.

    That have to be specced.

    Ok so then there is no issue giving to smite clerics who would also have to spec for it.
  • Juzzo wrote: »
    that's because you're the only realm with an AoE stun and instant AoE stun.

    That have to be specced.

    If you're suggesting that as a counter to my comment then:

    Jackie-Chan-WTF.jpg
  • edited November 2018 PM
    @Vrisslar I'd agree that there has been a bit too much CC in the game.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
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  • edited November 2018 PM
    Juzzo wrote: »
    Laff

    Almost every Mid group has a Pac Healer. If added to Smite, it would still be fairly rare in Alb.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
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  • Ylazul wrote: »
    Juzzo wrote: »
    Laff

    Almost every Mid group has a Pac Healer. If added to Smite, it would still be fairly rare in Alb.

    Thank you.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    So many butt hurt Albs now. Get over it. Y'all we're all happy and giddy when Mids we're getting screwed in this patch... Now the tables are changing.
    @John_Broadsword please don't listen to these Albs. They've always been about having the most garbage over everyone else. Look at Heretics...man those will be a stupid class in a Lord's room now
    Post edited by Tanky on
  • Instant/Castable AOE stun and unlimited uninterruptible PBAOE coming to Albion in 1.125D !

    @Tanky Mids what to be equal than fine, lets be equal.
  • Tanky wrote: »
    So many butt hurt Albs now. Get over it. Y'all we're all happy and giddy when Mids we're getting screwed in this patch... Now the tables are changing.
    @John_Broadsword please don't listen to these Albs. They've always been about having the most garbage over everyone else. Look at Heretics...man those will be a stupid class in a Lord's room now

    Not sure if superior troll or MRDD... I think your entire posting existence, aside from today, has consisted of some form of complaint lol.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Ewer wrote: »
    Instant/Castable AOE stun and unlimited uninterruptible PBAOE coming to Albion in 1.125D !

    @Tanky Mids what to be equal than fine, lets be equal.

    Ride the sled down this slope.. whats next 2 outta 3 alb and mid caster classes with baseline stun? No one wants WoW.

    Ive been back playing live for @ 2 years now and when i started back there were massive changes compared to when i quit. Guess what?, even those massive changes have been rolled back and toned down. I play all 3 realms fairly equally. Some times i run with the zerg, sometimes i run from the zerg, sometimes i 8 man, some times i small man, duo , or solo. There are changes that are going to affect everyone.

    One of three things will happen.
    1. People will acclimate and adapt
    2. People will quit
    3. People will not change anything, but they will continue to gripe and complain

    Originally when the Hunter RR5 change happened, i was pissed. I didnt play my hunter for 5 or 6 months. No skin off my back. I played something different. I decided to adapt. I couldve decided to retire him completely. I still play sniper spec and the rr5 while i admit is powerful, does not lend itself to my playstyle.

    Bottom line is that if it affects subscriptions, things will get modified. Give it time :-)
    Post edited by Sleepwell on
  • Saweet! Put this patch thru!
  • Mids only need a second ST class if Alb continued to get one... Otherwise I agree with others...1 per realm
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Tanky wrote: »
    Mids only need a second ST class if Alb continued to get one... Otherwise I agree with others...1 per realm

    Mid would need a second ST class if Alb got AOE stun and a second ST. "They got one so that means we should too ... but everything we have is ours and should be ours alone" is 15 year old aged Mid whine by now, and it's getting quite stale. I'm choosing this time to take a stand against something that's been ruining game balance for years.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • Its also quiet old to whine over AOE stun. GTFOver it
  • What was the argument for giving alb a second ST?
  • Tanky wrote: »
    Its also quiet old to whine over AOE stun. GTFOver it

    Since it's so inconsequential, I'm sure you wouldn't mind it being given to Clerics.
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • edited November 2018 PM
    BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    What was the argument for giving alb a second ST?

    Friars, which have been essentially relegated into a Healing class, was a sub-optimal choice for Albs who already have the worst Stun and AOE damage options.

    But I think this is all pointing at needing a RA review for weak or underperforming RAs more than anything.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
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  • Adding a second game changing RA is different than adding a specline spell.

    So give clerics an ae stun. But then give healers a dd spell
  • edited November 2018 PM
    BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Adding a second game changing RA is different than adding a specline spell.

    So give clerics an ae stun. But then give healers a dd spell

    Pac is better than Smite even if Smite were to get a DD. Smite's DD is mirrored in Shaman's DoT and DZ baseline combo which are as good or better than full-caster spec equivalents.

    And AOE Stun is outright better than ST outside of solo, I'm guessing. It's more game-changing, IMO
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
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  • Opinions are like ^+%#^*%%*.
  • Also, since friars were such a bad choice, why not swap ichor to friars and st to tics instead of adding it to a second class?
  • edited November 2018 PM
    BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Opinions are like ^+%#^*%%*.

    Yes, mine is consistently well maintained and well supported.

    That's from my personal experience. I've killed/bombed far more people with AOE stun than I've even seen it done by ST anywhere. ST is good for locking down chokes or hitting clumps in keeps and other siege situations, as well as stun-locking 1vx. AOE stun is good for keeps and for bombing ... and PVE/power leveling, I guess.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
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  • Don’t worry. It will be like a 35 sec ae stun when tics and friars drop st’s on clumps and immediately ae snare. Won’t be able to move for the whole ST duration
  • BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Don’t worry. It will be like a 35 sec ae stun when tics and friars drop st’s on clumps and immediately ae snare. Won’t be able to move for the whole ST duration

    Possibly. Raising the AE snare duration makes an already strong ability a death sentence in zergs. At most I think the tick durations should have been upped from 3 to 4 .
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • Ewer wrote: »
    Juzzo wrote: »
    that's because you're the only realm with an AoE stun and instant AoE stun.

    That have to be specced.

    Ok so then there is no issue giving to smite clerics who would also have to spec for it.

    checkmate
    ~Westies
  • edited November 2018 PM
    So if I play my Thane with ST that's ok, but if I play my RM it's not? Wasn't a problem before, but is now due to AoE stun? hmmm
    Post edited by Auberne on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Mostly because there are a ton of RMs everywhere. But you could counter ...

    "So if I palyed my Friar with ST that's ok, but if I play my Minstrel it's not?"
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
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    Mauler
  • Tons of tics and friars running around and very few people even understand how much love tics got with the increase snare duration, survivabiliy and now ST

    If Nate wasn’t the bg leader I’d retemp my tic and run in alb again
  • edited November 2018 PM
    @BurkleyRIP

    Yeah I play a tic, and it was a powerful class even on release. On par with Bains, Healers, Shaman, Sorcs, etc. But there have just been more and more buffs to range, duration, survivability, etc. At this point a lot of it is like window dressing because adding 70 AF to a class that already had around 1050 isn't going to be a huge deal, but still. It might benefit lower Enh specced Heretics that are suffering.

    But the increased duration on the AOE Snare might be a few seconds too much. Guess I will have to see if they're an answer to Warlocks or BDs or Thanes getting a 214 delve 1750 range nuke at 2.4s ... I do like that pretty much every single class I'm playing on all three realms is getting buffed though, lol.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • Unless the population of RMs dies off, it should be pretty obvious that giving them ST would make Mid stun way too strong.
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • Ylazul wrote: »
    Unless the population of RMs dies off, it should be pretty obvious that giving them ST would make Mid stun way too strong.

    Luckily we'll have the eye in the sky to track the bombardment of ST's over the next 2-3 weeks
  • KoeKoe
    edited November 2018 PM
    I don't think either RM's OR Minstrels (EDIT: THIS SHOULD SAY TICS as apparently I haven't read the latest patch notes) need ST, but I'm puzzled why people in this thread are pushing that only RM's shouldn't have ST. Also to be clear it seems this whole thread is about ST in large scale rvr, right?

    The Minstrel/ST option is significantly more powerful when combined with Phase Shift (for busting through a choke or the general get out of jail I timed that wrong card), and instant pbaoe mez, than it is for any class that currently has it and which to do the things like disrupt an enemy choke point, need put the toon in significant danger. Not so for Minstrels. [Run to choke point, then quickly fire r5 pbaoe mez/ST/PS+collect] You could even get crazy and throw a SOS 1 or a purge 2 if you simply cant run your finger over your keyboard in less than a second. There won't be a good counter to a well deployed minstrel as zephyr doesn't take hold for the short time it would take to pull off a mez/st bomb.

    I'll go ahead and take the contrary that if Minstrels get ST so should Skalds and Bards, and yeah as is stated many times here RM's don't need it (but neither do Minstrels). I think it also is going to push Minstrels over the top for small man/solo on the 2-3 well played Minstrels out there.
    Post edited by Koe on
  • Koe wrote: »
    I don't think either RM's OR Minstrels need ST, but I'm puzzled why people in this thread are pushing that only RM's shouldn't have ST. Also to be clear it seems this whole thread is about ST in large scale rvr, right?

    The Minstrel/ST option is significantly more powerful when combined with Phase Shift (for busting through a choke or the general get out of jail I timed that wrong card), and instant pbaoe mez, than it is for any class that currently has it and which to do the things like disrupt an enemy choke point, need put the toon in significant danger. Not so for Minstrels. [Run to choke point, then quickly fire r5 pbaoe mez/ST/PS+collect] You could even get crazy and throw a SOS 1 or a purge 2 if you simply cant run your finger over your keyboard in less than a second. There won't be a good counter to a well deployed minstrel as zephyr doesn't take hold for the short time it would take to pull off a mez/st bomb.

    I'll go ahead and take the contrary that if Minstrels get ST so should Skalds and Bards, and yeah as is stated many times here RM's don't need it (but neither do Minstrels). I think it also is going to push Minstrels over the top for small man/solo on the 2-3 well played Minstrels out there.

    Minstrels did not gain ST with the Live patch. Instead, they received Ichor which was removed from Heretics. ST has been given to Heretics.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
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  • KoeKoe
    edited November 2018 PM
    Minstrels did not gain ST with the Live patch. Instead, they received Ichor which was removed from Heretics. ST has been given to Heretics.

    Nice. I think that's a much better RA pairing (I'd still be down for both Heretics and RM's to not get ST) but I haven't heard any hibs complaining of either, so...
    Post edited by Koe on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    @Koe mostly because Mid has AOE stun already - they don't need more AOE stun. I'm just irritated at the "logic" and "arguments" mids are using to gain all sorts of things: "Albs have it so give it to us!" Take your hypothetical for instance. A healer can Phase Shift in, Insta Mez/MOC Spam mez, and then toss a fat AOE stun over it,

    Never mind that they aren't saying anything about having 2 spread heals while the other realms have 1, 2 heal buffs when the others have 0 and 1, 3 charge classes while the others have 2 ...

    Realm "homogenization" should stop going just one way. The reason why Albs got a 2nd ST was because Friars are usually healers and are poorly positioned and equipped to drop STs, and probably because Alb has the worst stun of the three realms in RvR (everything except small man stealth grouping).
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
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    Mauler
  • Ylazul wrote: »
    @BurkleyRIP

    Yeah I play a tic, and it was a powerful class even on release. On par with Bains, Healers, Shaman, Sorcs, etc. But there have just been more and more buffs to range, duration, survivability, etc. At this point a lot of it is like window dressing because adding 70 AF to a class that already had around 1050 isn't going to be a huge deal, but still. It might benefit lower Enh specced Heretics that are suffering.

    But the increased duration on the AOE Snare might be a few seconds too much. Guess I will have to see if they're an answer to Warlocks or BDs or Thanes getting a 214 delve 1750 range nuke at 2.4s ... I do like that pretty much every single class I'm playing on all three realms is getting buffed though, lol.

    Thank you for pointing out the facts here while overshadowing its impact. I played my heretic day 1 of catacombs release. I know how powerful they were and how much more powerful they've become with the tic love patch recently. So a class with 1050 AF, now close to 1100 AF, coupled with 33% absord, and PD9, and RR5...you don't see this as remotely OP? Throw in ST now and the snare.
    You keep mentioning thanes like it matters compared to what Heretic's just got. We got a boost to a nuke and a nerf to our chain lightning. Big deal.
  • Ylazul wrote: »
    BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Adding a second game changing RA is different than adding a specline spell.

    So give clerics an ae stun. But then give healers a dd spell

    Pac is better than Smite even if Smite were to get a DD

    Never got hit by a healer or shaman for 8xx damage 4 times in a row. :)
  • Never got hit by a healer or shaman for 8xx damage 4 times in a row. :)

    I'm also sure you've never been chain CC'ed for 2 minutes straight by a Smite Cleric.
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
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    Mauler
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Tanky wrote: »
    Thank you for pointing out the facts here while overshadowing its impact. I played my heretic day 1 of catacombs release. I know how powerful they were and how much more powerful they've become with the tic love patch recently. So a class with 1050 AF, now close to 1100 AF, coupled with 33% absord, and PD9, and RR5...you don't see this as remotely OP? Throw in ST now and the snare.
    You keep mentioning thanes like it matters compared to what Heretic's just got. We got a boost to a nuke and a nerf to our chain lightning. Big deal.

    A Tic that is getting melee'd isn't casting, and it's casting that gives Tics all their power. Otherwise they're just Reavers-lite with no spike potential, capable only of grinding down low DPS melee 1v1. That's probably why few Tics take PD9, because it's overkill.

    As for Chain Lightning, no matter what has happened to SC it's still a line that any DPS caster would kill for (other than Warlocks, maybe). For a realm like Mid which is already supreme in insta/unavoidable interrupts, Thane spam regularly gets BGs wiped. Heretics are on the other side of that equation, but the way Heretic damage is set up, and for the way the realms are stacked, it's a lot less disruptive and damaging than that of Thanes. And that's speaking for a class that is Alb's sole saving grace now.

    I don't know if you were around for it but the whole reason why Mids and Hibs nerfwhined Smite Clerics into an unplayable mess for years was because they called them "Wizards in Chain" for having a 225 damage, 4s cast nuke. They got it nerfed to 176/4 for years.

    So imagine what a joke it is for me to hear someone dismiss 214/2.4 from 1700 range on not only a chain class but a 2.0 chain class with a large shield, weapon styles, and parry.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • edited November 2018 PM
    @Ylazul
    I'm dismissing nothing. Yes its a boost as I stated, but a small nerf to CL as well. You (according to your sig) have these toons in question as do I...so you should see how OP a tic can be now. Highest AF and absorb in the game (Maulers equal the absorb part). Furthermore, Thanes AOE is 1600 range, as to a Tics aoe at 1750...so theoretically, a Tic should be interrupting the Thane before he can start his caste...especially with a 2.0 caste speed.
    I don't recall the smite clerics before NF but I do recall the patch that boosted Smite that also healed as a secondary component. Of course that was nerfed some time later.
    You mistaken my points as whines when I'm calling it natural balance. I'm not for the savage climb walls spec nor the RM getting ST. If you ask me, 1 ST per realm, done. But this heretic patch is really out of hand when you consider all the toys they have access to.
    Post edited by Tanky on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Whoops, maybe I shouldn't have put joke, I just get a nice chuckle out of it, that is. The thing also with Thanes is, unlike Heretics, they don't deal with dozens of instant interrupts from out the ass. When you AOE a clump of Albs, none of them except the Heretic is going to be able to do anything but scatter and reposition without MOC.

    More support/caster in Mid than not, has some kind of instant interrupt or CC or some other ass-pull way to recover from setbacks. Warlocks, BDs, Shamans, Healers. SMs can pull some casts out with pet intercepts if the interrupt is melee. Only Runies get truly screwed by interrupts like all Alb casters and Healers do. Unless the Albs are stacked with Tics Mid always turns the tide on interrupts, and Thanes are just dumping oil over the metaphorical grease fire.

    " I'm not for the savage climb walls spec nor the RM getting ST. If you ask me, 1 ST per realm, done. But this heretic patch is really out of hand when you consider all the toys they have access to."

    I agree with you in theory. But really, they're Albs only clear advantage now. I'd be opposed to it if Alb didn't systematically have every single advantage stripped, diluted, nerfed, homogenized, or outright stolen from it (I'm looking at Mez Damp and Power Tap here).

    So I'm fine with Heretics picking up the slack, because it's better than nothing.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • Ylazul wrote: »
    Never got hit by a healer or shaman for 8xx damage 4 times in a row. :)

    I'm also sure you've never been chain CC'ed for 2 minutes straight by a Smite Cleric.

    To be fair, different jobs. That's the Sorcs job. Apples to Oranges.
  • KoeKoe
    edited November 2018 PM
    Ylazul wrote: »
    Tanky wrote: »
    As for Chain Lightning, no matter what has happened to SC it's still a line that any DPS caster would kill for

    I don't know if you were around for it but the whole reason why Mids and Hibs nerfwhined Smite Clerics into an unplayable mess for years was because they called them "Wizards in Chain" for having a 225 damage, 4s cast nuke.

    So imagine what a joke it is for me to hear someone dismiss 214/2.4 from 1700 range on not only a chain class but a 2.0 chain class with a large shield, weapon styles, and parry.

    Just a couple of points of clarification. Feel free to dispute this if you'd like, but I'd like to present both sides. Thanes (along with some other classes that don't have access to acuity buff, and are on a much lower dex table), may seem like they have, on paper a great deal, but it takes most Thanes Aug acuity 8-9 + 127 dex in template to hit their dex cap, and they are ~100 acuity below list casters. That drastically affects caster DPS. Sure, any list caster might be happy with a thane line to choose from, but then again for a list caster the cast speed would need to be increased, and delvs down somewhat to compensate for their inherent bonuses.

    Smite clerics were god mode back in the day, but I see your point on how today's thane is better than yesterday's smite cleric. Please acknowledge that today's smite cleric is better than yesterday's smite cleric as well. It is, and many thanes would gladly give up 2.0 spec points, chain lightning, and all melee specability for the chance to have Ascendance (doubles casted damage), mez, stun, snare, heals and insta heals, Warlord, and root clears.
    Post edited by Koe on
  • Ascendance blocks all healing - so it makes sense that most Thanes would like it. It also doesnt multiply with ToA and RA damage boosts so it's not quite double. The thing is youd be losing much more than 2.0 spec, shield and melee, but also range, a ton of DPS, an instant DD, energy debuff, self buffs, radius and DPS on AoE, Doom Hammer, Thors Reach.

    If you replaced Stormcalling with any version of Smite Thanes would all quit.
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
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